/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2012-08-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 27 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  17. # [05:14] <@tantek> aaronpk - re: http://aaronparecki.com/2012/236/article/1/you-should-not-be-displaying-relative-dates nice post - just one nit, you linked to http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern but apparently ignored the big warning at the top ;)
  18. # [05:15] <@tantek> though I should now update that warning/advice to use the <time> element instead
  19. # [05:17] <aaronpk> yes, I've been noticing it's hard to tell what is the most current information on the microformats wiki
  20. # [05:18] <@tantek> aaronpk - big yellow box at the top makes it hard to tell?!?
  21. # [05:18] <@tantek> or do you mean on other pages
  22. # [05:18] <aaronpk> especially since things like this: http://microformats.org/wiki/hAtom#Entry_Published say to use the datetime-design-pattern
  23. # [05:18] <@tantek> I means specifically about the page you linked to
  24. # [05:18] <aaronpk> well it just says "please review" and is yellow, it doesn't say "deprecated" and it's not red
  25. # [05:18] <@tantek> ah - ok, that's a good point, hAtom needs updating for that.
  26. # [05:19] <aaronpk> I found more things mentioning the datetime-design-pattern than the value-class-pattern
  27. # [05:21] <@tantek> now that's a problem
  28. # [05:22] <aaronpk> like i said, it's hard to tell what's the most current information
  29. # [05:23] <aaronpk> there's also the problem of what the site says is the most current vs what google and other search engines actually parse
  30. # [05:24] <Loqi> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=47149&oldid=43009&rcid=61573 * Tantek * (+298) add explicit note/recommendation to use HTML5 time element
  31. # [05:25] <aaronpk> ahh much better!
  32. # [05:25] <Loqi> [[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=47150&oldid=47149&rcid=61574 * Tantek * (-9) or a DRYer solution
  33. # [05:26] <@tantek> the one thing that bugs me about <time> is the DRY violation it so often requires
  34. # [05:27] <aaronpk> I suppose
  35. # [05:27] <@tantek> it bugged me enough that we have a VCP+<time> solution that avoids DRY violation :)
  36. # [05:28] <@tantek> my blog uses it
  37. # [05:32] <@tantek> in short, you can do <span class="dtpublished"><time class="value">20:40</time> on <time class="value">2012-08-24</time></span>
  38. # [05:32] <@tantek> which gives you full DRY principle adherence, as well as the flexibility of reordering time / date for your own readability preference
  39. # [05:33] <aaronpk> I want to do a follow-up post of recommendations of how to display dates
  40. # [05:34] <aaronpk> one of the things I realized is that for rapidly changing feeds of data, the relative date can be ok to use (ideally along with the absolute date), and displaying events is often clearer if you also show the day of the week
  41. # [05:34] <@tantek> I've even proposed to WHATWG to expand <time> to permit compositing nested time elements, e.g. the above example could be represented even briefer as <time class="dtpublished"><time>20:40</time> on <time>2012-08-24</time></time>
  42. # [05:35] <@tantek> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Time_element#reducing_DRY_violations_overview and following sections
  43. # [05:35] <@tantek> but it was rejected for now, with the point that not enough adoption of the <time> element itself has been seen yet to justify extending it further, which is a reasonable reason to reject (for now)
  44. # [05:36] <@tantek> til then, we can keep using vcp+<time> (as I have it running live on my site)
  45. # [05:37] <@tantek> now let me see if I can fix those other out-of-date wiki references you found
  46. # [05:37] <@tantek> was it primarily just the hAtom spec itself? or were there other pages that may have been misleading?
  47. # [05:40] <aaronpk> it may have been just taht one
  48. # [05:41] <@tantek> well that's an important one so I should fix it ASAP
  49. # [05:41] <@tantek> especially as affects Indieweb deployments
  50. # [05:41] <@tantek> and potentially protocols we come up with (e.g. the comment / pingback thing)
  51. # [05:44] <Loqi> [[value-class-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=value-class-pattern&diff=47151&oldid=45242&rcid=61575 * Tantek * (+189) /* Examples in the wild */ forgot to add tantek.com a while ago
  52. # [05:45] * aaronpk should proabbly go update his site to use the <time> attribute
  53. # [06:05] <@tantek> element ;)
  54. # [06:06] <aaronpk> er, element
  55. # [06:18] <@tantek> :)
  56. # [06:18] <@tantek> oh cool - it looks like the VCP docs already handle nested <time> elements: http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Date_and_time_parsing
  57. # [06:20] <@tantek> "if the element is a del, ins, or time element, then use the element's datetime attribute value if present, otherwise its inner-text. "
  58. # [06:20] <@tantek> now to provide a couple of examples
  59. # [06:38] <Loqi> [[value-class-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=value-class-pattern&diff=47152&oldid=47151&rcid=61576 * Tantek * (+1572) /* Date and time values */ add preferred HTML5 examples to all date and time parsing examples
  60. # [06:38] <@tantek> ok that should help a bit
  61. # [06:48] <aaronpk> great examples!
  62. # [06:52] <Loqi> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hatom&diff=47153&oldid=46744&rcid=61577 * Tantek * (+208) replace datetime-design with value class pattern (reflect modern usage as of 2+ years ago)
  63. # [06:52] <@tantek> alright, hopefully that helps drive better usage a bit
  64. # [06:54] <Loqi> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hatom&diff=47154&oldid=47153&rcid=61578 * Tantek * (+47) /* Semantic XHTML Design Principles */ semantic HTML update
  65. # [06:54] <@tantek> thanks aaronpk!
  66. # [06:55] <@tantek> ok I think I've at least patched the misleading references in hAtom. will add better inline examples next. at least I think I've stopped the bleeding as it were.
  67. # [06:56] <aaronpk> yea that looks a lot better. will take another look when I go back to redo my page tags
  68. # [06:57] <@tantek> awesome - thanks again for the constructive feedback - helped a lot
  69. # [06:57] <aaronpk> do you know of a good tag or class to use to indicate the enclosed content is the main content of the page? I'd like to hint to crawlers where the body text lives vs navigation and footer elements for example
  70. # [06:58] <@tantek> well I think the way that's handled is by marking up the nav and footer elements :)
  71. # [06:58] <@tantek> then crawlers can focus on the other stuff in between
  72. # [06:59] <aaronpk> hm that's a thought
  73. # [06:59] <@tantek> besides that, hentry does the trick
  74. # [06:59] <@tantek> or entry-content in particular
  75. # [06:59] <aaronpk> actually i'm writing a crawler so I get to choose what to look at
  76. # [06:59] <@tantek> oh fun
  77. # [07:00] <@tantek> hopefully you can also try parsing for microformats2 as well
  78. # [07:00] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2
  79. # [07:00] <aaronpk> i'm writing a classifier for posts on my site so I can show "related posts"
  80. # [07:00] <@tantek> and try consuming both the uf2 on my site and on barnabywalters :)
  81. # [07:00] <aaronpk> entry-content is good, I will start there
  82. # [07:01] <@tantek> note the use of e-entry-content in uf2: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2#h-entry
  83. # [07:03] <Loqi> [[microformats2]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2&diff=47155&oldid=47084&rcid=61579 * Tantek * (+20) /* h-entry */ h-entry backward compat - for 'entry-content', parse as e-
  84. # [07:03] <@tantek> in uf2, the 'e-' prefix means parse and use the element's entire innerHTML as its property value (including markup, not just text node)
  85. # [07:06] <@tantek> benward convinced me we needed "e-", in particular for hAtom / h-entry, which already had such "entire embedded element tree" functionality for its 'entry-content' property in order to solve the "syndicate an entry *with* markup" use-case
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  108. # [14:47] <nonge> aaronpk, regarding "do you know of a good tag or class to use to indicate the enclosed content is the main content of the page?": it can be 'article' (HTML5)
  109. # [14:47] <nonge> especially if there is only one 'article' not nested in other sectioning content
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  111. # [15:13] <Loqi> [[existing-rel-values]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=existing-rel-values&diff=47156&oldid=47093&rcid=61580 * Cemk04 * (+57) /* proposals */
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  114. # [16:33] <@tantek> rel rokbox?
  115. # [16:33] <@tantek> anyone heard of that?
  116. # [16:36] <@tantek> certainly not a proposal level rel, not even a brainstorm (no documentation provided). going to undo that.
  117. # [16:39] <Loqi> [[existing-rel-values]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=existing-rel-values&diff=47157&oldid=47156&rcid=61581 * Tantek * (+66) summary for rel-payment, Undo revision 47156 by [[Special:Contributions/Cemk04|Cemk04]], no spec or summary provided for rel rokbox, sounds library-specific
  118. # [16:41] <@tantek> nonge - indeed, article can be useful for that, however article typical may include a header/footer of its own as well
  119. # [16:42] <@tantek> s/typical/typically
  120. # [16:42] <Loqi> tantek meant to say: nonge - indeed, article can be useful for that, however article typically may include a header/footer of its own as well
  121. # [16:42] <@tantek> e.g. I use a <footer> inside each <article> for the date published information in my posts: tantek.com
  122. # [16:49] <Loqi> [[existing-rel-values]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=existing-rel-values&diff=47158&oldid=47157&rcid=61582 * Tantek * (-112) /* formats */ rel-js-modal is not part of any existing format, and certainly not part of XFN thought that was probably copypasta. No spec provided, wrong table.
  123. # [17:03] <nonge> tantek, yeah that's right. one could argue if the header/footer inside of a 'article' belong to the content or not (I'd vote yes, the publishing date in the footer and the heading/title in the header are part of the content/article/blogpost/whatever)
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  138. # [21:50] <Loqi> http://twitter.com/phixed :: @davidmihm I feel like with schema/hcard/microformats/etc this just adds unnecessary confusion.
  139. # [22:03] <@tantek> following that tweet, here is the latest unnecessary reinvention of hCard, in a side-file too: https://github.com/fesja/businesstxt
  140. # [22:03] <@tantek> what's with the recent fashion of "just use a .txt at a well known local path" trend?
  141. # [22:03] <@tantek> e.g. humans.txt
  142. # [22:03] <@tantek> etc.
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  148. # [23:19] <aaronpk> I agree it's kind of a silly thing to do, but restaurant websites haven't had a good track record of using html anyway
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  151. # [23:34] <@tantek> yeah
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  153. # Session Close: Tue Aug 28 00:00:00 2012

The end :)