/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2013-01-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jan 10 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  18. # [02:29] <Loqi> [[User:adikdasa]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:adikdasa&rcid=66362 * Adikdasa * (+2786) A good thing to remember when buying running shoes is that
  19. # [02:30] <Loqi> [[User:adikdasa]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:adikdasa&diff=49519&oldid=49518&rcid=66363 * Adikdasa * (+2974) /* and glittering. To Nick */ new section
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  21. # [02:31] <Loqi> [[User:adikdasa]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:adikdasa&diff=49520&oldid=49519&rcid=66364 * Adikdasa * (+2896) /* Tara Stiles */ new section
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  28. # [03:32] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/ddossot :: It's simple: just parse the vaguely compliant HCard elements scattered on the profile page. Or use @IDlight. #public #profile
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  43. # [07:15] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/filedir :: H'calendar ～In 2013 - Wallpaper Yearly Calendar～ for #iOS 1.2 http://filedir.com/ios/lifestyle/hcalendar-in-2013-wallpaper-yearly-calendar-for-ios-4649461.html
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  50. # [09:11] <Loqi> [[User:Jacqueline]] NM http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:Jacqueline&rcid=66365 * Jacqueline * (+382) New page: I would like to introduce myself to you, I am Darron but I do not like when folks use my whole identify.<br><br>What I appreciate performing is astronomy but I have been getting on new det...
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  55. # [09:19] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[User:adikdasa]]": content was spam
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  77. # [13:38] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/InZineArticles :: The hCard Offers Local Savings with Rally Point Sport Grill http://inzinearticles.com/the-hcard-offers-local-savings-with-rally-point-sport-grill/
  78. # [13:38] <Loqi> #localbusiness
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  88. # [16:02] <iSRAELi> :D
  89. # [16:02] <iSRAELi> great news
  90. # [16:02] <iSRAELi> a friend of mine began working in the company that i work in
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  105. # [17:44] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/InZineArticles :: Your NEW Year can mean savings with The hCard! http://inzinearticles.com/your-new-year-can-mean-savings-with-the-hcard/
  106. # [17:44] <Loqi> #localbusiness
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  111. # [18:05] <Loqi> [[User:gualterr2]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:gualterr2&rcid=66370 * Gualterr2 * (+2361) frank gore impact jersey PlOM each other to fight at the cus
  112. # [18:05] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:Gualterr2]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  113. # [18:05] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[User:gualterr2]]": content was spam
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  115. # [18:18] <gjones> @tantek todays version of http://microformat2-node.jit.su/ should now parse http://tantek.com/ correctly - finger crossed : )
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  117. # [18:32] <@tantek> gjones great!
  118. # [18:36] <gjones> There is some interesting result for the h-entry where its picking up the value-pattern for u-url and u-uid, but I think that's, right u-x properties look for value-pattern first
  119. # [18:38] <gjones> Also the h-entries are in the children array of h-feed because it could not find p-entry class in the same classList as h-entry
  120. # [18:38] <@tantek> I think I see a false positive for "hfeed" being backward compat parsed as "h-feed". E.g. on this post: http://tantek.com/2013/006/t1/learn-lindy-hop-hepjen-920special
  121. # [18:39] <@tantek> There is no "hfeed" in the backward compat vocabs: http://microformats.org/wiki/uf2#v2_vocabularies because we don't know of any (significant?) consumers of "hfeed" in particular (lots of "hentry", but not "hfeed" itself)
  122. # [18:40] <@tantek> you're not turning all "h***" into "h-***" are you? that would be bad as we don't want it to be arbitrary, just a short list of what's been well adopted.
  123. # [18:42] <@tantek> @gjones - this is the test URL: http://microformat2-node.jit.su/api?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F2013%2F006%2Ft1%2Flearn-lindy-hop-hepjen-920special&callback=&;formats=
  124. # [18:42] <@tantek> I'm seeing "type":["h-feed"] right at the start there, and there is no "h-feed" on that page.
  125. # [18:43] <gjones> I built mappings for all of the current V1 just to look at how the conversion logic held up.
  126. # [18:43] <@tantek> where do you get your list of "all of the current V1"?
  127. # [18:44] <gjones> I can switch off V1 stuff we don't want to convert by changing the mapping files
  128. # [18:44] <@tantek> better to stick with the "current V1" list listed here: http://microformats.org/wiki/uf2#v2_vocabularies
  129. # [18:45] <@tantek> otherwise we're likely to get too much noise / false positives
  130. # [18:45] <gjones> Looks like the page your testing has <ol class="hfeed"> at line 31
  131. # [18:46] <@tantek> yes - however, "hfeed" != "h-feed"
  132. # [18:46] <@tantek> that being said, I'd be interested in seeing what mappings you came up with for hReview, hReview-aggregate, hProduct, hListing, hRecipe, hNews
  133. # [18:46] <@tantek> or what other mappings you came up with
  134. # [18:48] <gjones> https://github.com/glennjones/microformat-node/tree/dev/lib/maps - there are bit missing where it was not clear what to do
  135. # [18:50] <@tantek> whoa github is slow today
  136. # [18:50] <@tantek> spinny octocat spinny
  137. # [18:53] <@tantek> yeah their ajax is wonky today, I have to do full page loads to get the specific files to show up (or back to the listing)
  138. # [18:54] <@tantek> gjones, your maps look pretty good at first glance, e.g. for hReview etc.
  139. # [18:54] <@tantek> I'll dive deeper in a bit
  140. # [18:54] <gjones> Yeh I think they are uploading a new interface
  141. # [18:55] <@tantek> for now we should drop h-feed.js, h-media.js, h-org.js
  142. # [18:55] <@tantek> also, this is the first I've heard of h-competency - is that something you used to extend hResume?
  143. # [18:59] <gjones> Its experimental, h-competency is what Madgex and Linkedin have used to extend hResume. Linkedin don't use it any more
  144. # [19:00] * Parts: @adactio (~adactio@host213-123-197-180.in-addr.btopenworld.com)
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  147. # [19:02] <@tantek> would be great to leave it out of the core parser for now then - especially if LinkedIn is not publishing it anymore
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  151. # [19:04] <gjones> Should be able to that by allowing for developers to add new schema mapping as an option
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  153. # [19:10] <@tantek> gjones - I'm not sure - as such mappings are only needed for pre-uf2 formats
  154. # [19:11] <@tantek> and developers shouldn't be making any new ones
  155. # [19:11] <@tantek> anything new that developers come up with they should just use microformats2 syntax
  156. # [19:11] <@tantek> and no need to change the parser
  157. # [19:12] <@tantek> in fact, developers adding new .js schema maps like that should be explicitly discouraged
  158. # [19:12] <@tantek> so that they use microformats2 syntax which will work across all microformats2 parsers, not just one that they happen to customize with code.
  159. # [19:13] <JonathanNeal> Do you guys have any opinions on this, or is it totally unrelated? https://github.com/diveintomark/diveintohtml5/issues/17 "Change microdata chapter so it points to schema.org instead of data-vocabulary.org?"
  160. # [19:14] <gjones> I have often created supersets when I have needed to extended a schema. I can see what your saying I should be able to now use the h-x in V2
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  162. # [19:15] <@tantek> gjones - exactly - just use the V2 class name prefixes and you're all set. no parser changes needed.
  163. # [19:15] <@tantek> in fact, if something DOES require a parser change, then at this point something is wrong and we should fix it.
  164. # [19:17] <@tantek> JonathanNeal - schema.org is a confusing mess. at least with data-vocabulary.org Google stuck with a few small vocabularies that it actually supports. whereas with #schema, it's a massive pile of crap with a few useful things buried in it.
  165. # [19:18] <JonathanNeal> So we're sad either way..
  166. # [19:18] <@tantek> I'd say the spirit of Mark's book is a quick and useful overview, instead of pointing off into massive piles of crap (in fact, he makes fun of such massive piles of crap)
  167. # [19:19] <@tantek> JonathanNeal - we're sad because Google just keeps reinventing how they want to do their custom version of semantics every 2-3 years.
  168. # [19:20] <@tantek> from GoogleBase, to GoogleData / gData, to data-vocabulary.org, to now schema.org
  169. # [19:20] <@tantek> this has been going on since 2005
  170. # [19:21] <@tantek> one of the reasons we've kept microformats going is that as an open community, things are actually a lot more stable and reliable around here.
  171. # [19:21] <@tantek> so if anything, I'd say the best "future-proofing" for the microdata chapter is to add parallel microformats markup examples to each microdata example
  172. # [19:22] <@tantek> which is a bit more work than changing a few URLs, however it's something that folks here can help with
  173. # [19:22] <JonathanNeal> Well, I'm up for the challenge, but I'm somewhat of a micro formats newbie. So I can branch it, make those additions, then have someone here review them for sanity.
  174. # [19:22] <@tantek> e.g. hReview, as introduced in 2005, still works *today*, as is
  175. # [19:23] <@tantek> in contrast to GoogleBase, introduced in 2005, long abandoned (but got A LOT more press / popular shouting / blog posts at the time because, hey, it's GOOGLE, they can't possibly be wrong, right?)
  176. # [19:23] <@tantek> ;)
  177. # [19:23] <@tantek> JonathanNeal - happy to help
  178. # [19:24] <JonathanNeal> Thanks. How involved would you like to be? I'm still unsure how to respond to the ticket, but that's because of a lack of knowledge on my part.
  179. # [19:25] <@tantek> I think I've helped out with that chapter before.
  180. # [19:25] <@tantek> About the ticket, at first glance it seems like the issue contains its own demise: "seems to be the shiny new common thing"
  181. # [19:25] <@tantek> usually a bad reason to do anything
  182. # [19:25] <@tantek> shiny new = fashion
  183. # [19:28] <@tantek> in re-reading the chapter, I remember how simple/straightforward it was
  184. # [19:28] <@tantek> like if you look at the sample PERSON VOCABULARY, it's short, simple, based mostly on hCard with a little XFN thrown in there
  185. # [19:29] * Quits: brennannovak (~brennanno@67.23.193.215) (Remote host closed the connection)
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  187. # [19:30] <@tantek> the table here that is http://diveintohtml5.info/extensibility.html#person (scroll down about a page - needs an id for the table)
  188. # [19:30] <@tantek> now if that were the schema.org/Person instead - what a mess: http://schema.org/Person
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  191. # [19:34] <JonathanNeal> I'm convinced!
  192. # [19:34] * Quits: nonge_ (~nonge@p5B326372.dip.t-dialin.net) (Quit: Verlassend)
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  194. # [19:35] <@tantek> so that's the key I think, to doing a good job in maintaining this text - keep it simple, straightforward, purely useful - as that seems like Mark's intent, and to the reader's benefit.
  195. # [19:35] <@tantek> #schema unfortunately is none of those :/
  196. # [19:37] <@tantek> I'm happy to help with editing to see if there's a way to add parallel microformats markup examples to each microdata example while still keeping it short and useful.
  197. # [19:38] <JonathanNeal> If you wrote the microformat parallels so much as in a simple text document or gist, I could do all the formatting and placement.
  198. # [19:38] * Joins: brennannovak (~brennanno@24-104-79-38-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  199. # [19:38] <JonathanNeal> Otherwise, I will try to write them myself in the next few days, when time permits.
  200. # [19:45] <@tantek> JonathanNeal - next few days is totally fine, I have a few things on my plate currently. Happy to help with etherpad co-editing etc.
  201. # [19:49] <JonathanNeal> Yay
  202. # [19:56] * Joins: gjones (~gjones@cpc22-brig15-2-0-cust92.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  203. # [19:58] <Loqi> [[Personalised Present to Surprise Your husband or wife6282757]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Personalised_Present_to_Surprise_Your_husband_or_wife6282757&rcid=66373 * TrevaxobhpyludzChatham * (+3172) New page: Once your spouse's birthday is within the cards determined have to pull-up your socks and initiate taking care of an excellent gift for him/her. Homemade cards sou
  204. # [20:04] <Loqi> [[Personalised Present to Surprise Your partner84291]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Personalised_Present_to_Surprise_Your_partner84291&rcid=66374 * GustavoylirqnlznuColian * (+3182) New page: Bankruptcy lawyer las vegas spouse's birthday is for the cards you definitely should bring up your socks and start searching for a pleasant gift for him/her. Homemade cards sound too
  205. # [20:17] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:TrevaxobhpyludzChatham]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  206. # [20:17] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Tantek * blocked [[User:GustavoylirqnlznuColian]] with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
  207. # [20:17] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[Personalised Present to Surprise Your husband or wife6282757]]": content was spam
  208. # [20:17] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Tantek * deleted "[[Personalised Present to Surprise Your partner84291]]": content was spam
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  213. # [20:53] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/bluematrix :: #Microformate - ein weitere Welt ohne für einheitliche Richtlinien. #hcard #vcard #semantic
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  219. # [22:24] <Harzilein> hmm
  220. # [22:24] <Harzilein> anyone active?
  221. # [22:24] <Harzilein> i'd like to point to my question from yesterday again
  222. # [22:26] <barnabywalters> Harzilein: hi, what was your question?
  223. # [22:26] <Harzilein> it was about an idea for marking up and interlinking the following facts:
  224. # [22:27] <Harzilein> - the costs of publishing the currently used "site"
  225. # [22:27] <Harzilein> - the fraction (say, of page hits) the currently used document constitutes of this
  226. # [22:28] <Harzilein> - marking up an ad as ofsetting those costs
  227. # [22:28] <Harzilein> so a user agent could choose to display/hide an ad based on the knowledge of its contribution to keeping the site up
  228. # [22:29] * Quits: polvo (~Snak@dsl-173-206-232-149.tor.primus.ca) (Quit: The computer fell asleep)
  229. # [22:29] <@tantek> Harzilein - could you provide a URL to the example content you want to markup?
  230. # [22:29] <@tantek> we typically try to markup real world publishing examples
  231. # [22:31] <Harzilein> tantek: well, currently i have no problem paying for my hosting. it's more what i'd like to recommend to people who say they have to choose between an unattractive ad and paying the publishing infrastructure out of their own pockets
  232. # [22:31] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@c-71-204-145-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  233. # [22:31] <Harzilein> but as an example, let's pretend my instance of killbills gets more popular than that of the author and i want to add ads: http://killbills.harzilein.eu.org
  234. # [22:32] <Harzilein> my monthly server costs are 10 euros for a share of a dedicated server
  235. # [22:32] <Harzilein> and i would like to serve ads from project wonderful
  236. # [22:33] <@tantek> it's tough to come up with good patterns for markup based on "let's pretend" examples, because in practice, the actual content + markup tends to differ A LOT from any theoretical / let's pretend examples.
  237. # [22:33] <Harzilein> now i could count page hits and after a month tell people how many page hits there are per month
  238. # [22:34] <@tantek> I'd say the best thing to do is to try experimenting with real content and just POSH class names
  239. # [22:34] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/poshformats
  240. # [22:34] <@tantek> and then we could all take a look at how your experiments worked and see what to do next
  241. # [22:35] <Harzilein> yeah, but the problem starts with _costs_. i would not like to use, say, goodrelations, because i'm not selling a product of "hiding ads", but just informing visitors about the costs i have, my visitor count, and the fact that certain parts of the page are "ad payload" and not content
  242. # [22:37] <Harzilein> i currently don't have to set off my costs with ads, and i don't have real visitors either.
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  244. # [22:54] <@tantek> I'm still trying to understand how to use goodrelations - there's so much to it
  245. # [22:54] <@tantek> I mean, it's obviously quite powerful, but it seems quite hard to do simple things with
  246. # [22:56] <Harzilein> so let's concentrate on the fuzziest thing, the first ones are basically about making a 90's style hit counter and a "donation goal" like they have on wikipedia computer readable
  247. # [22:57] <Harzilein> the hard think is marking up an ad as "payload for setting off the costs marked up in those other parts"
  248. # [22:57] <@tantek> there was some work on donation links with rel-payment
  249. # [22:58] <Harzilein> tantek: oh, i'll look into that
  250. # [22:58] <@tantek> ad markup in general has not been pursued much
  251. # [22:58] <@tantek> but is likely worth of research & documentation
  252. # [22:58] <@tantek> the use case you point out is interesting
  253. # [22:58] <Harzilein> tantek: it's a hippie thing of course to mark up your ads so user agents have an easier time hiding them %-)
  254. # [22:58] <@tantek> a *positive* use case for ad markup (i.e. not just ad blocking/filtering)
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  256. # [22:59] <Harzilein> well, what started this was basically that people who have already donated to wikipedia _still_ have to see those annoying css popups
  257. # [22:59] <Harzilein> for the rest of their campaign
  258. # [23:00] <Harzilein> does rel-payment have some kind of qualification if this is for profit or for setting off costs?
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  261. # [23:04] <@tantek> no such qualification
  262. # [23:04] <@tantek> it was designed to be the simplest way of discovering such things
  263. # [23:04] <@tantek> no distinction of
  264. # [23:05] <@tantek> non-profit vs. not-for-profit vs. coffee-money vs. making-a-living
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  269. # [23:23] <Harzilein> tantek: hmm
  270. # [23:25] <Harzilein> tantek: so i guess it would be enough to add rel-payment indicating a page where i whine in prose about my server costs and tell people which html markup they should add to each page if they want to have ads shown ;)
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  272. # [23:25] <Harzilein> tantek: i guess i'll test drive that approach :D
  273. # [23:27] <@tantek> it's a good start!
  274. # [23:34] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-84-13-244-241.opaltelecom.net) (Quit: Back to real life!)
  275. # Session Close: Fri Jan 11 00:00:00 2013

The end :)