/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2013-04-29 / end

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1. # Session Start: Mon Apr 29 00:00:00 2013
2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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24. # [03:09] <colares> !tell barnabywalters Hi, man! How are u doing? I've talked to tantek this mooring, he suggest me to create top level effort page for sheet-music (http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music), like http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music. what do you think? Is there a different denomination for sheet of music with pentagrams etc. and for sheet of lyrics with chords?
25. # [03:09] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
26. # [03:10] <colares> !tell barnabywalters I mean, like http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info
27. # [03:10] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
28. # [04:04] <Loqi> [[sheet-music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=sheet-music-examples&diff=53046&oldid=52825&rcid=73046 * Colares * (+1631) /* Examples */
29. # [04:06] <colares> !tell barnabywalters I've updated sheet-music-examples (http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music-examples), i think both proposal has the same top level effort
30. # [04:06] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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32. # [04:15] <colares> tantek: do you think sheet music format (pentagrams, calves, notes etc. http://sordylhouseofmusic.com/images/sheet-music.jpg) should be developed under the same top level effort (sheet-music) as lyrics with chords (http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/rock-and-pop-songs-with-chords/png/Words_Of_Love-Buddy_Holly.png or http://www.finalemusic.com/usermanuals/finale2012win/content/image846.gif)?
33. # [04:16] <Loqi> [[User:nndl293hcx]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:nndl293hcx&rcid=73047 * Nndl293hcx * (+2566) 65 $49@@= s
34. # [04:17] <Loqi> [[User:nndl293hcx]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:nndl293hcx&diff=53048&oldid=53047&rcid=73048 * Nndl293hcx * (+2379) /* 1760 Mission Drive */ new section
35. # [04:17] <Loqi> [[User:nndl293hcx]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:nndl293hcx&diff=53049&oldid=53048&rcid=73049 * Nndl293hcx * (+3101) /* most of the time */ new section
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37. # [04:38] <Loqi> [[sheet-music]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=sheet-music&rcid=73050 * Colares * (+480) New page: <entry-title>Sheet Music</entry-title> This is a page for tracking the effort to develop a sheet-music microformat for musicians to indicate information about sheet music (e.g. sheet with...
38. # [04:39] <colares> !tell barnabywalters also added this page: http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music
39. # [04:39] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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44. # [06:23] <Loqi> [[User:ndop166rcg]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:ndop166rcg&rcid=73051 * Ndop166rcg * (+4988) Last summer
45. # [06:23] <Loqi> [[User:ndop166rcg]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:ndop166rcg&diff=53052&oldid=53051&rcid=73052 * Ndop166rcg * (+2931) /* an easy to use living will */ new section
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52. # [06:54] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/sirio :: I added a video to a @YouTube playlist http://www.youtube.com/ microformats2 &amp; HTML5: The Next Evolutionary Step For Web Data
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57. # [07:54] <Loqi> [[User:nmdf821fux]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:nmdf821fux&diff=53055&oldid=53054&rcid=73059 * Nmdf821fux * (+2497) /* SANTA MARIA */ new section
58. # [07:55] <Loqi> [[User:nmdf821fux]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:nmdf821fux&diff=53056&oldid=53055&rcid=73060 * Nmdf821fux * (+2698) /* 聯It was amazing to be able to film in Birmingham */ new section
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60. # [08:21] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/KadirNelson :: SPECIAL PUBLIC EVENT @ California African American Museum - 11:00 AM on 05/18/2013 #helioscal http://www.caamuseum.org/hcalendar/events/index.php?com=detail&eID=3443
61. # [08:25] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/MODELNY :: RT @KadirNelson: SPECIAL PUBLIC EVENT @ California African American Museum - 11:00 AM on 05/18/2013 #helioscal http://www.caamuseum.org/hcalendar/events/index.php?com=detail&eID=3443
62. # [08:30] <Loqi> [[Maninho solicitou com argumentos Payday Loan um bicicletário no Instituto Goethe Eles colocaram Argumentar em alguns casos funciona]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Maninho_solicitou_com_argumentos_Payday_Loan_um_biciclet%C3%A1rio_no_Instituto_Goethe_Eles_colocaram_Argumentar_em_alguns_casos_funciona&rcid=73061 * MaybelleJones * (+1521) New page: [[Image:_Payday_Loan_113
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67. # [08:49] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/RJuanMa :: 'hCard ' Open format for publishing people, companies, organizations on the web, using a 1:1 representation of vCard http://html5doctor.com/microformats/#hcard
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71. # [09:13] <Loqi> [[You need to not Fret Fibroids Uterus arent Cancerous]] N http://www.microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=You_need_to_not_Fret_Fibroids_Uterus_arent_Cancerous&rcid=73066 * Nnamdiokoye * (+4487) New page: You need to not Worry, Fibroids Uterus aren't Cancerous<br/><br/><br/>While you seek to understand the reality around fibroid uterus, it is in fact vital to comprehend that the tumors ar
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75. # [09:17] <Loqi> [[sheet-music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=sheet-music-examples&diff=53059&oldid=53046&rcid=73069 * Tantek * (+18) entry-title, autotoc, link to overall sheet music effort page in intro
76. # [09:17] <Loqi> [[sheet-music-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=sheet-music-examples&diff=53060&oldid=53059&rcid=73070 * Tantek * (-1) ws
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79. # [09:58] <Loqi> [[Trendy Swiss Army Watches Writeup Dashboard]] N http://www.microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Trendy_Swiss_Army_Watches_Writeup_Dashboard&rcid=73071 * Waynechamberscmg * (+3303) New page: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXxwnfqLNS0 Trendy Swiss Army Watches - Write-up Dashboard] <br/>The Swiss are renowned for their precision in the sphere of their mechanical labor and of c...
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83. # [10:01] <Loqi> [[User:nbej408rdp]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:nbej408rdp&rcid=73075 * Nbej408rdp * (+3710) participated in the Lisbon NATO summit in November 2010
84. # [10:02] <Loqi> [[User:nbej408rdp]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:nbej408rdp&diff=53064&oldid=53063&rcid=73076 * Nbej408rdp * (+2772) /* National */ new section
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100. # [11:01] <Loqi> barnabywalters: colares left you a message 7 hours, 51 minutes ago: Hi, man! How are u doing? I've talked to tantek this mooring, he suggest me to create top level effort page for sheet-music (http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music), like http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music. what do you think? Is there a different denomination for sheet of music with pentagrams etc. and for sheet of lyrics with chords?
101. # [11:01] <Loqi> barnabywalters: colares left you a message 7 hours, 50 minutes ago: I mean, like http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info
102. # [11:01] <Loqi> barnabywalters: colares left you a message 6 hours, 55 minutes ago: I've updated sheet-music-examples (http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music-examples), i think both proposal has the same top level effort
103. # [11:01] <Loqi> barnabywalters: colares left you a message 6 hours, 22 minutes ago: also added this page: http://microformats.org/wiki/sheet-music
104. # [11:02] <barnabywalters> ooh, cool
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109. # [11:33] <Loqi> [[sheet-music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=sheet-music-examples&diff=53066&oldid=53060&rcid=73082 * Barnabywalters * (+462) /* Ukulele-Tabs.com */ Added a bunch of documentation
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117. # [12:46] <@tantek> barnabywalters - I had a good chat with aaronpk about canonical parsing of rel values for microformats2
118. # [12:47] <@tantek> my thinking now is that a microformats2 parser should treat all rel values as document level
119. # [12:47] <@tantek> and that potentially we should simply include a "rels" array at the top level (same level as "items" )
120. # [12:47] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/letsnurture :: Try this #hcard Generator http://www.letsnurture.com/tools/hcard-generator.html
121. # [12:48] <barnabywalters> good morning tantek
122. # [12:48] <barnabywalters> great, I have been wondering about rel values in µf parsers
123. # [12:49] <@tantek> first thought was to simply create a hash inside the "rels" property, where each hash (e.g. "author") would have an array as a value, of all the URLs with that rel value on the page.
124. # [12:49] <barnabywalters> perhaps “links” as the key?
125. # [12:49] <barnabywalters> tantek: yep, that would be my thinking
126. # [12:50] <@tantek> one challenge I came up with later is that other attributes can modify the meaning of rel links
127. # [12:50] <@tantek> e.g. lang
128. # [12:50] <@tantek> and media
129. # [12:50] <@tantek> especially in combination with rel=alternate
130. # [12:51] <barnabywalters> ah, so maybe a structure more similar to the µf structure
131. # [12:51] <@tantek> well we could use presence of a 'rel' attribute to trigger adding of a hyperlink to a "links" array similar to the "items" array at the root
132. # [12:51] <barnabywalters> with links = array of hashes, with dict.rel = array of URLs, dict.media = media value, dict.lang = array of langs
133. # [12:52] <@tantek> and then each item in the links array would have a hash of href, rel, hreflang, media, type
134. # [12:53] <@tantek> a hyperlink can have multiple rel values
135. # [12:53] <@tantek> but only one href
136. # [12:53] <barnabywalters> tantek: yep, that’s an option. Personally I’m not keen on the use of “href”, but it’s consistent with HTML
137. # [12:53] <@tantek> only one media attribute (but that itself is still an expression - e.g. media query0
138. # [12:53] <@tantek> I'm not keen on it either
139. # [12:53] <barnabywalters> IIRC no one is actually sure what href means
140. # [12:54] <@tantek> hyperlink reference
141. # [12:54] <barnabywalters> tantek: citation?
142. # [12:54] <barnabywalters> last time I checked that was the general consensus, but no one could find the origin
143. # [12:54] <@tantek> I think I'd have to look up some early writings rom Tim Berners Lee
144. # [12:54] <@tantek> *from
145. # [12:55] <tommorris> pragmatic solution
146. # [12:55] <@tantek> the other thought
147. # [12:55] <@tantek> is that the only rel value that has any co-use with other attributes is rel=alternate
148. # [12:56] <tommorris> actually, disregard me. I was going to say something, but my brain has about 50 other processes competing for limited resources. :)
149. # [12:56] <@tantek> what if we neglected the rel-alternate use cases in favor of making all other rel use cases so much simpler.
150. # [12:58] <barnabywalters> tantek: something like this? https://gist.github.com/anonymous/5480953
151. # [12:59] <barnabywalters> personally I am not against adding the extra information for rel-alternate. The translation use case makes it particularly valuable
152. # [13:01] <barnabywalters> if we’re not recording the innerText of the link element, lang is irrelevant
153. # [13:02] <barnabywalters> so the extra data is only hreflang (nasty name) and media (probably not hugely useful)
154. # [13:03] <barnabywalters> would using lang for what is currently hreflang be overly confusing? as in HTML they mean two different things
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156. # [13:14] <@tantek> it would be confusing
157. # [13:15] <@tantek> it's already confusing
158. # [13:15] <@tantek> I mean, I use alternate with hreflang (and sometimes lang) for translations
159. # [13:15] <barnabywalters> yeah, probably best not add more to the pot
160. # [13:16] <@tantek> what's the use case for automatic discovery of alternates? like translations, or mobile versions
161. # [13:18] <tommorris> we're using @hreflang on Wikipedia to link to alternative articles.
162. # [13:18] <barnabywalters> tantek: french-speaking person visits one of your blog posts on a mobile browser, your translation links are right at the bottom, their browser detects the link with hreflang = fr, pops up a notification letting me know there’s a translated version
163. # [13:19] <@tantek> barnabywalters - another alternative (heh) is to create a separate key for alternates - since they're so "special" compared to other rel values
164. # [13:20] <@tantek> so we can have "rels" for all uses of rel *except* for alternate
165. # [13:20] <@tantek> and keep them simple
166. # [13:20] <@tantek> so we can do easy rel-author / in-reply-to / syndication / canonical discovery
167. # [13:20] <barnabywalters> tantek: what are the advantages of that over simply adding one/two more keys?
168. # [13:20] <barnabywalters> seems like adding another top-level key is more complexity
169. # [13:21] <@tantek> it makes the more common use case of *all other rels* easier
170. # [13:21] <barnabywalters> this is true
171. # [13:22] <barnabywalters> tantek: so, something like this: https://gist.github.com/barnabywalters/5480962
172. # [13:23] <@tantek> just two more keys
173. # [13:23] <@tantek> alternates
174. # [13:23] <@tantek> rels
175. # [13:24] <barnabywalters> thoughts on rels vs links for top-level key? consider that the child items have a rel attribute
176. # [13:24] <barnabywalters> rels[0].rel[0] vs links[0].rel[0]
177. # [13:29] <@tantek> "rels": { "author": [ "url1", "url2", … ]; "in-reply-to": ["url1", "url2", … ] }
178. # [13:29] <@tantek> so you can easily look up the authors, or the in-reply-tos
179. # [13:29] <@tantek> that's the simplification that I discussed with aaronpk earlier today
180. # [13:32] <@tantek> "alternates" - as you provided in https://gist.github.com/barnabywalters/5480962 except that "author" wouldn't make sense as a rel in combination with alternate
181. # [13:33] <@tantek> in fact, simplify even further, and the "rel" property/key on an "alternates" item would only have any additional rels (not counting alternate)
182. # [13:33] <@tantek> the examples of rel-alternate + rel-something are only "stylesheet" and "home"
183. # [13:34] <@tantek> so no need to make that "rel" key an array itself, but rather just a string, and if there's more than one rel value left over, just put them all in as a single string - punt on making it into an array because it's an edge case that no one has any use case for.
184. # [13:37] <@tantek> "alternates": [ { "url": "http://example.com/", "rel": "home", "media": "handheld", "hreflang": "fr" } ]
185. # [13:38] <@tantek> let's omit "title" and "lang" for now - I don't see using those in any discovery scenarios
186. # [13:39] <@tantek> if that sounds reasonable, I can write-up the parsing algorithm in the morning
187. # [13:39] <barnabywalters> tantek: updating… what about links with rel-alternate and other rels as well?
188. # [13:40] <barnabywalters> oh, you had that covered in the example – okay
189. # [13:40] <@tantek> yes :)
190. # [13:40] <barnabywalters> what about multiple other values? possible? likely? in use?
191. # [13:40] <barnabywalters> not sure I’ve ever seen it in the wild
192. # [13:40] <@tantek> multiple other values have never been proposed nor seen in the wild
193. # [13:40] <barnabywalters> okay, so leaving it as a string
194. # [13:40] <@tantek> thus we can simply say, they're all in one string should that happen
195. # [13:40] <@tantek> space separated
196. # [13:40] <@tantek> set
197. # [13:41] <@tantek> order inconsequential in the string
198. # [13:41] <barnabywalters> okay, updated. https://gist.github.com/barnabywalters/5480962
199. # [13:41] <barnabywalters> that all sounds reasonable to me
200. # [13:42] <@tantek> no links array
201. # [13:42] <@tantek> just rels
202. # [13:42] <@tantek> "rels": { "author": [ "url1", "url2", … ]; "in-reply-to": ["url1", "url2", … ] }
203. # [13:43] <barnabywalters> oh, interesting — yep, that’s way simpler
204. # [13:43] <@tantek> with the exception that "rels" doesn't contain any "alternates" (because they're more complex than simple rels)
205. # [13:47] <barnabywalters> updated
206. # [13:53] <@tantek> ok cool - just saw you updated the gist
207. # [13:54] <@tantek> a microformats2 parser that can also parse the rels into those keys will help greatly with indieweb discovery use cases
208. # [13:54] <barnabywalters> tantek: sure — once you’ve done the parsing spec I’ll write some tests and get onto it over the week
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210. # [13:55] <barnabywalters> probably also helper functions for aggregating XFN data and associating it with an h-card
211. # [13:56] <barnabywalters> e.g. a XFN+h-card blogroll -> parser -> helper tools => h-cards associated with XFN
212. # [13:59] <@tantek> especially if the h-cards have explicit u-url, and then the consuming application can look for any XFN rels to those URLs
213. # [13:59] <barnabywalters> tantek: exactly
214. # [13:59] <@tantek> ok that can work
215. # [14:00] <@tantek> should I write up "rel-parsing" separately? or just include it as part of /wiki/microformats2-parsing ?
216. # [14:00] <@tantek> and thus make it a baseline part of all microfomats2 parsing?
217. # [14:01] <barnabywalters> tantek: probably do usual — stick it in µf2-parsing, then if it’s too big put it elsewhere
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219. # [14:01] <@tantek> ok, let's start with that
220. # [14:01] <@tantek> perhaps we can get glennjones (gjones) feedback if you see him in the channel
221. # [14:02] <barnabywalters> sure
222. # [14:02] <@tantek> also jlsuttles
223. # [14:03] <barnabywalters> perhaps leave a !tell for them both once you’ve specced out the algorithm
224. # [14:03] <@tantek> sure - but worth giving them a heads up and seeing if they're ok with the general idea
225. # [14:04] <barnabywalters> I’ll mention it if I see them
226. # [14:04] <@tantek> cool
227. # [14:05] <@tantek> thanks for the pair-brainstorming refinement
228. # [14:05] <barnabywalters> np — now back to paid work :D
229. # [14:05] <@tantek> now maybe I'll go to sleep. 05:06-0700
230. # [14:05] <@tantek> had to get these ideas out first.
231. # [14:06] <barnabywalters> I thought it was weird seeing you here at this time of day!
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238. # [15:21] <Loqi> [[Ways To Use A Vacuum Cleaner On Wood Flooring]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Ways_To_Use_A_Vacuum_Cleaner_On_Wood_Flooring&rcid=73083 * Alakre37 * (+3506) Many upright vacuum cleaners come with tubes and parts to wash upholstery and stairs. The look of the upright vacuum helps it be an even more cumbersome alternative versus a container vacuum, which is designed specifi
239. # [15:21] <Loqi> [[Ways To Use A Vacuum Cleaner On Wood Flooring]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Ways_To_Use_A_Vacuum_Cleaner_On_Wood_Flooring&diff=53068&oldid=53067&rcid=73084 * ChiefRA * (-3506) spammy content
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258. # [18:54] <Loqi> [[Psychology of Pounds Reduction]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Psychology_of_Pounds_Reduction&rcid=73090 * Lking27 * (+2405) While many people fight to lose weight most of the attention is focused on the physical aspect of weight loss, dieting and eating right. While these are important aspects of weight loss the psychological side should not be ignored, stress, depressi
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285. # [21:09] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/rabble :: So @veganstraightedge's idea of using html &amp; microformats as a data format for restful apis is intriguing. https://github.com/G5/microformats2
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290. # [21:51] <Loqi> https://twitter.com/veganstraightedge :: @mukherjeesuman Nope! Take a look at
291. # [21:51] <Loqi> https://github.com/g5/microformats2 for examples.
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The end :)