/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2013-08-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 13 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:00] <@tantek> not that I know of. i'd say whenever people make claims about mozilla like that, ask for a URL that proves it.
  4. # [00:00] * Quits: jgay (~jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  5. # [00:01] <bret> heh ok. I'm to trusting
  6. # [00:01] <@tantek> it's what happens when people ignore and/or make fun of your technology for so long (RDF)
  7. # [00:01] <@tantek> people get defensive and/or exaggerate to compensate
  8. # [00:02] <@tantek> the semweb crowd are known for making exaggerated and misleading claims (e.g. claiming that FB OGP is "RDFa", and then later redefining RDFa to include an "og:" default prefix)
  9. # [00:02] <bret> :[
  10. # [00:02] <@tantek> pretty ironic for a crowd which advocates figuring out how to communicate "trust" on the web
  11. # [00:02] <danbri> tantek, that's not a very nice thing to say
  12. # [00:02] <@tantek> danbri - happy to provide citations
  13. # [00:03] <@tantek> e.g. Peter Mika's post about RDFa adoption - included plenty of OGP which was not RDFa (per the spec at the time)
  14. # [00:03] <danbri> it was buggy rdfa
  15. # [00:03] <@tantek> danbri - it was meta tags 2.0
  16. # [00:03] <@tantek> even to call it buggy rdfa is an exaggeration
  17. # [00:03] <danbri> it was also not to your taste
  18. # [00:04] <@tantek> intent of rdfa was to provide an RDF-like way to markup visible data, like microformats
  19. # [00:04] <@tantek> none of FB OGP is marking up visible data
  20. # [00:04] * Joins: tealmage (~tealmage@ip70-160-31-87.hr.hr.cox.net)
  21. # [00:04] <danbri> it was more about bridging the gap
  22. # [00:04] <@tantek> calling OGP meta tags 2.0 is more accurate than calling it RDFa
  23. # [00:04] <@tantek> what you call "bridging the gap" - I'm calling intentional exaggeration
  24. # [00:05] <@tantek> danbri - if you want to go way back - all the shenanigans around "RSS" "1.0" / Winer were pretty bad too
  25. # [00:05] <danbri> how far back do you want to go?
  26. # [00:06] <@tantek> you claimed "not a nice thing to say", I provided citations.
  27. # [00:06] <@tantek> I've basically given up on hearing actually precise statement about adoption from semweb advocates.
  28. # [00:06] <@tantek> which is pretty ironic
  29. # [00:07] <@tantek> since greater precision is often given as a reason for extensible / distributed vocabularies, namespaces, etc.
  30. # [00:07] <danbri> http://scripting.com/midas/mcf.html
  31. # [00:07] <danbri> "I had a few hours on Christmas morning to do some experimenting and planning. It looks like there's an opportunity for us to add to the MCF standard. It also looks like it's happening, so it's time to jump on the bandwagon and start digging..."
  32. # [00:07] * Quits: tobyink (~tai@host86-167-51-184.range86-167.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  33. # [00:08] <@tantek> danbri - critiquing winer does nothing to remove criticism of behaviors by semweb folks
  34. # [00:08] <@tantek> "they do it too" or "he did it first" are never a defense
  35. # [00:08] <@tantek> you know better than that
  36. # [00:08] * Quits: tealmage (~tealmage@ip70-160-31-87.hr.hr.cox.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  37. # [00:12] <danbri> i criticise specific semweb people's behaviour too
  38. # [00:12] <danbri> i try to avoid sweeping generalisations about "semweb types" (or microformat types)
  39. # [00:12] <danbri> (unless i'm saying something nice, hopefully)
  40. # [00:13] <@tantek> indeed there are exceptions
  41. # [00:13] <@tantek> have had plenty of discussions with tommorris for example (who is one such exception)
  42. # [00:13] <danbri> e.g. I thought quoting someone else saying 'rdfa is microformats done right' in http://www.slideshare.net/mark.birbeck/the-5-minute-guide-to-rdfain-only-6-minutes-40-seconds was needlessly hostile
  43. # [00:13] <bret> we are all just trying to make each other better right? :)
  44. # [00:13] <@tantek> he's pretty blatantly up front about success/failures
  45. # [00:13] <@tantek> bret - if only that were so
  46. # [00:14] <bret> :x
  47. # [00:14] <@tantek> the semweb stuff has been ugly politically for quite some time
  48. # [00:14] <@tantek> danbri - indeed, have also seen statements like "microdata is simpler than microformats" - without any evidence substantiating it (examples etc.)
  49. # [00:14] <danbri> and http://www.slideshare.net/danbri/one-big-happy-family/ was presented alongside tom morris
  50. # [00:14] <danbri> simplicity isn't simple
  51. # [00:15] <@tantek> no it isn't
  52. # [00:15] <danbri> most things i see from you on the topic of rdf are pretty critical of it
  53. # [00:15] <@tantek> danbri - do you have an HTML version of that slide deck? I've grown allergic to PDF/PPT about web tech
  54. # [00:16] <@tantek> danbri - true - like many things, I see it as more complex than necessary to actually handle real world use-cases.
  55. # [00:16] <@tantek> anything with namespaces for data (including XML etc.) has this problem
  56. # [00:16] <danbri> I have keynote and didn't like it's other saveAs options, sorry ... not proud of the format choice there
  57. # [00:16] <bret> i would say my first semweb experience last week was pretty political… the activity streams people were not happy with schema.org
  58. # [00:17] <@tantek> bret - yeah that was pretty ugly
  59. # [00:17] <bret> I didn't understand his answer about not using a more familiar license
  60. # [00:17] <danbri> is OWF less dead than PoCo?
  61. # [00:18] <@tantek> schema-org claims to be about unifying existing disparate/divergent conversations/vocabularies, but even where there is existing convergence/communities (vCard/VCARDDAV, activities/ActivityStreams), schema-org still decides to fork/reinvent.
  62. # [00:18] <@tantek> danbri - apples and oranges
  63. # [00:18] <@tantek> licenses != formats
  64. # [00:18] <danbri> the person schema.org vocab dates from before i got involved
  65. # [00:18] <bret> In my measly experience is more about making confusing documentation :/
  66. # [00:18] <bret> it is*
  67. # [00:18] <@tantek> danbri - not pinning any problems with schema-org on you, to be clear
  68. # [00:18] <@tantek> all the problems I know of pre-date your involvement
  69. # [00:19] <danbri> thanks
  70. # [00:19] <@tantek> happy to clarify that as often as necessary
  71. # [00:19] <@tantek> you've at least tried to bring people together on the public-vocabs list, and for that I'm grateful
  72. # [00:19] <bret> Like, it was unclear why I need to scope my website as a website in MD? Isn
  73. # [00:19] <bret> t that assumed?
  74. # [00:20] <danbri> there are ways in which schema.org is closer to microformats than most earlier RDF work - e.g. caring more about publisher simplicity (whether or not that is achieved is another matter)
  75. # [00:20] <@tantek> bret - you asked for CC0, Guha, claimed they already do CC-BY which is more liberal (which is actually not true). my guess is he's just not familiar with CC0 (presuming ignorance in this case rather than malevolence)
  76. # [00:20] <@tantek> danbri - agreed.
  77. # [00:20] <danbri> there are ways in which microdata learns from both rdfa and microformats (without framing either as obsoleted)
  78. # [00:20] <@tantek> the hot debate about property vs. rel in RDFa was quite informative
  79. # [00:20] <bret> i don't know much about CC0 other than it is used on a few common things, someone else prob should have asked the question
  80. # [00:20] <@tantek> bret - it's ok, it was a good question
  81. # [00:21] <danbri> and there are ways in which microformats-2 moved closer to things RDF long cared about, like a common entity/property/value data model beyond the markup
  82. # [00:21] <@tantek> CC0 is where modern standards licensing is at. it used to be CC-BY a few years ago.
  83. # [00:21] <@tantek> danbri - well, arguably closer to microdata than RDF
  84. # [00:21] <@tantek> and we're (re)learning the property vs. rel problem too
  85. # [00:22] <@tantek> and lesson
  86. # [00:22] <danbri> which was Hixie's reworking of RDFa
  87. # [00:22] <@tantek> sort of
  88. # [00:22] <@tantek> I don't think he ever claimed to fully rework RDFa
  89. # [00:22] <danbri> so the fact is there are respectable amounts of all these things out there
  90. # [00:22] <@tantek> but rather come up with something microformats-like, but more generic, that handled the use-cases provided by RDFa-advocates
  91. # [00:23] <@tantek> danbri - this is an example of the kind of exaggeration I speak of
  92. # [00:23] <danbri> So http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019681.html sort of dismantles RDFa and rebuilds it in a more HTML-friendly way
  93. # [00:23] <@tantek> you saying "Hixie's reworking of RDFa" I view as an inaccurate exaggeration (of the relevance/influence of RDFa)
  94. # [00:24] <@tantek> "dismantles RDFa" is also inaccurate (perhaps your reading into it)
  95. # [00:24] <@tantek> because all he did there were list use-cases presented to him, without any specific tech being referenced
  96. # [00:24] <@tantek> someone else might have dismantled RDFa
  97. # [00:25] <@tantek> but Hixie certainly didn't
  98. # [00:25] <@tantek> and claiming he did is false
  99. # [00:25] <danbri> I always thought it was quite well positioned between the two works
  100. # [00:25] <danbri> and thought it quite funny-tragic that you more or less embraced it, while RDFa enthusiasts were filled with outrage and denounced it
  101. # [00:27] <@tantek> danbri - right. that's another instance (
  102. # [00:27] <@tantek> "filled with outrage") of the kind of general reactions I speak of
  103. # [00:27] <@tantek> RDFa advocates worked hard to try to get RDFa *required* in XHTML2
  104. # [00:27] <@tantek> and when that ship sank
  105. # [00:27] <@tantek> they tried the same approach with HTML5
  106. # [00:27] <@tantek> political adoption rather than independent market success
  107. # [00:28] <@tantek> bundling rather than modularity
  108. # [00:28] <@tantek> speaks to a lack of self-confidence in the technology
  109. # [00:29] <danbri> it's 11.30pm here, can we pause the complaining about my friends for a bit?
  110. # [00:29] <danbri> otherwise i'll have this stuff bouncing around my head when i'm going to sleep, which is no fun
  111. # [00:29] <danbri> happy to pick this up next time I'm in bay area
  112. # [00:29] <@tantek> ok danbri let's switch the topic to something more positive then, and we can continue discussions/citations of misbehavior later
  113. # [00:29] <@tantek> have you tried adding any microformats2 to your own site?
  114. # [00:30] <danbri> not yet
  115. # [00:30] <bret> it takes ~6 minutes
  116. # [00:31] <bret> assuming you can get to your templates
  117. # [00:31] <@tantek> bret - you made a particularly poignant statement about how long it took you to rip out microdata vs. add microformats2 earlier - was that in IRC or on your site?
  118. # [00:31] <@tantek> (during osfw3c workshop)
  119. # [00:31] <bret> that was IRC, i wanted to reblog it though
  120. # [00:31] <bret> burried in colloquy logs
  121. # [00:32] <bret> And yes, its fair to count the community help I received as part of the the ease of adoption
  122. # [00:33] <Loqi> [[microformats2]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2&diff=59171&oldid=58677&rcid=88213 * Tantek * (+200) /* v2 vocab to-do */ analyze how well microformats2 satisfies the use-cases used to design/create microdata
  123. # [00:34] <danbri> if I make some microformats2 hacking time, it'll more likely be with parser code and content from others' sites
  124. # [00:34] <danbri> closer to dayjob concerns
  125. # [00:36] <@tantek> danbri if you change your Twitter link on your danbri.org home page to use https you should have enough setup to use danbri.org with IndieAuth (and thus login to the #indiewebcamp wiki)
  126. # [00:37] <danbri> done
  127. # [00:37] <danbri> is this relmeauth revisited?
  128. # [00:38] <danbri> i tried some code for that a year or so back but couldn't get it running
  129. # [00:39] <@tantek> danbri - it's the best implementation of relmeauth to date
  130. # [00:40] <@tantek> and in the past couple of weeks, aaronpk has figured out how to federate IndieAuth (which was based on relmeauth)
  131. # [00:43] <bret> here is the working spec https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth
  132. # [00:43] <bret> errrr
  133. # [00:44] <bret> wait
  134. # [00:44] <bret> https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth-spec
  135. # [00:47] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@146.90.244.38) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  136. # [00:50] <bret> tantek: http://bret.io/2013/08/12/t1/
  137. # [00:51] <@tantek> bret - http://spec.indieauth.com/
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  139. # [01:00] <bret> ill probably write a little more some day
  140. # [01:01] <bret> as it was one of those things that was difficult to figure out what to do just by googling… came down to trying stuff and talking to people
  141. # [01:01] <@tantek> bret - good to know
  142. # [01:01] <@tantek> I do think community makes all the difference
  143. # [01:01] <@tantek> and there's no community around microdata / schema.
  144. # [01:01] <bret> yeah, no way
  145. # [01:01] <@tantek> (typical with top down corporate things)
  146. # [01:01] <bret> i found one website with some sampls
  147. # [01:01] <bret> samples
  148. # [01:02] <bret> and it was difficult to look at the schema.org vocabulary wall, and understand where to start
  149. # [01:02] <bret> this one http://schema.org/docs/full.html
  150. # [01:03] <@tantek> yeah - that's a bit of a mess
  151. # [01:03] <@tantek> talk about overdesigned. sheesh.
  152. # [01:04] <bret> this is my favorite
  153. # [01:04] <bret> http://schema.org/WebPage
  154. # [01:04] <@tantek> sigh
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  156. # [01:13] <aaronpk> quantify all the things!
  157. # [01:14] <Loqi> QUANTIFY ALL THE THINGS http://loqi.me/7mj
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  163. # [03:04] <Loqi> [@microformats] "...less time to implement #microformats2 than remove #microdata #schema-org tags from templates" - http://bret.io/2013/08/12/t1/ (http://twtr.io/bRZcJiRLzj)
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  169. # [06:10] <bret> :) sweet
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  171. # [06:14] <bret> !tell tantek, heard back from the payswarm folks: Something about "kumar and tchoma [from #payswarm] are the main mozilla folks here that have been collaborating in the web payments group. mozilla shipped navigator.mozPay() on firefox os phones and pay swarm have been helping propose it as a spec http://web-payments.github.io/browser-payments/ and the currently shipped mozPay() is
  172. # [06:14] <bret> very experimental and not ready for other vendors as is" I might dig in when I have some time out of curiosity.
  173. # [06:14] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
  174. # [06:14] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
  175. # [06:14] <bret> ??
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  179. # [07:01] * ChanServ sets mode: +o tantek
  180. # [07:01] <Loqi> tantek: bret left you a message 46 minutes ago: heard back from the payswarm folks: Something about "kumar and tchoma [from #payswarm] are the main mozilla folks here that have been collaborating in the web payments group. mozilla shipped navigator.mozPay() on firefox os phones and pay swarm have been helping propose it as a spec http://web-payments.github.io/browser-payments/ and the currently shipped mozPay() is
  181. # [07:02] <@tantek> bret your Loqi message got cut-off
  182. # [07:02] <Loqi> [@bivihoba] RT @microformats: "...less time to implement #microformats2 than remove #microdata #schema-org tags from templates" - http://bret.io/2013/08/12/t1/ (http://twtr.io/bRuzdrPqYY)
  183. # [07:03] <@tantek> bret - I just took a look at http://web-payments.github.io/browser-payments/
  184. # [07:03] <@tantek> as usual - exaggeration
  185. # [07:03] <@tantek> there is one *informative* (meaning not needed to implement) reference to payswarm in there
  186. # [07:04] <@tantek> and the only place it is specifically mentioned in the spec is "transactionType - A free-form string … (for example: credit cards, mobile phone carrier-based billing, or PaySwarm)."
  187. # [07:04] <@tantek> ergo payswarm is like an optional minor appendage thingie
  188. # [07:04] <@tantek> has nothing actually do with browser-payments
  189. # [07:05] <@tantek> and that took me maybe 30 seconds of reading a spec I've never read before
  190. # [07:21] <bret> The rest of the message: and the currently shipped mozPay() is very experimental and not ready for other vendors as is" I might dig in when I have some time out of curiosity.
  191. # [07:22] <bret> but off to bed, gnight...
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  193. # [07:28] <@tantek> goodnight
  194. # [07:28] <Loqi> buenas noches
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  198. # [08:10] <Loqi> [@UnnamedTeam] RT @microformats: "...less time to implement #microformats2 than remove #microdata #schema-org tags from templates" - http://bret.io/2013/08/12/t1/ (http://twtr.io/bS17diMBpL)
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  200. # [08:28] <Loqi> [[User:ty786055uh]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:ty786055uh&diff=59197&oldid=59194&rcid=88329 * Ty786055uh * (+2891) /* borse gucci outlet 4 */ new section
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  205. # [08:59] * tommorris reads scrollback and sees he missed a jolly good argument between tantek and danbri while he was asleep. ;)
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  208. # [09:46] <Loqi> [@herryuntitledz] Cara mengatasi Kesalahan: Missing required hCard "author" http://networkedblogs.com/O4ai7 (http://twtr.io/bS9h1K74Tj)
  209. # [09:46] <Loqi> [@lophliphluph] Cara mengatasi Kesalahan: Missing required hCard "author" http://networkedblogs.com/O4ai7 (http://twtr.io/bS9h71owEy)
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  213. # [10:05] <Loqi> [@EmotiCodeDotNet] HTML - Businesses and organizations - Rich Snippets - Microformats hCard - http://www.emoticode.net/html/businesses-and-organizations-rich-snippets-microformats-hcard.html #html #snippet (http://twtr.io/bSBQ_AMoJ8)
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  219. # [10:27] <Loqi> [@lophliphluph] Cara mengatasi Kesalahan: Missing required hCard "author": Mungkin masalah seperti ini terkadang luput dari ko... http://herryuntitledz.blogspot.com/2013/08/cara-mengatasi-kesalahan-missing.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (http://twtr.io/bSDRivc3_Q)
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  222. # [10:54] <Loqi> [@jjsu1991] #Win a pack of #awesome @Wordpress plugins worth $417! Claim Your Entry Now! Please Retweet http://www.matthewwoodward.co.uk/reviews/author-hreview-review-increase-search-traffic-with-eye-catching-serps/ via @mattwoodwarduk (http://twtr.io/bSFqnwxCxb)
  223. # [10:56] <Loqi> [@SitaGabriel] Enter Now To Win Traffic Boosting Wordpress Plugins Worth $417 http://www.matthewwoodward.co.uk/reviews/author-hreview-review-increase-search-traffic-with-eye-catching-serps/ via @mattwoodwarduk (http://twtr.io/bSG0zFRm1b)
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  235. # [12:51] <Loqi> [@chrisvseo] #Win a pack of #awesome @Wordpress plugins worth $417! Claim Your Entry Now! Please Retweet http://www.matthewwoodward.co.uk/reviews/author-hreview-review-increase-search-traffic-with-eye-catching-serps/ via @mattwoodwarduk (http://twtr.io/bSSP4M0PYG)
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  269. # [18:06] <xtof> tantek hi. FYI just tried to remove spam : the wiki does not answer anymore
  270. # [18:06] <@tantek> xtof - wiki just loaded for me
  271. # [18:07] <xtof> tantek it's ok now. back to cleaning spam ;)
  272. # [18:17] <@tantek> thank you xtof! :)
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  321. # [23:50] <Loqi> [[existing-rel-values]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=existing-rel-values&diff=59252&oldid=59100&rcid=88488 * Aaronpk * (+221) /* HTML5 link type extensions */ proposed rel="indieauth"
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  323. # Session Close: Wed Aug 14 00:00:00 2013

The end :)