/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2013-08-15 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  33. # [06:45] <Loqi> [[Voyance Gratuite]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Voyance_Gratuite&diff=59353&oldid=59339&rcid=88736 * ArronHylton * (+40)
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  45. # [10:08] <Loqi> [[User:0xy741xdw8]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:0xy741xdw8&diff=59367&oldid=59364&rcid=88750 * 0xy741xdw8 * (+2916) /* until close to the objective of. */ new section
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  47. # [10:26] <Loqi> [@Martin_Cooney] nice - Review of Author hReview for Serious Bloggers - http://www.cooney.com.au/review-of-author-hreview-for-serious-bloggers (http://twtr.io/bWYEJdiD8G)
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  52. # [11:18] <Loqi> [[User:9ic743ykj1]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:9ic743ykj1&diff=59369&oldid=59352&rcid=88752 * 9ic743ykj1 * (+2472) /* Two fat cat owner died after the body fat starve the carry o */ new section
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  59. # [12:03] <Loqi> [[User:0ht613won6]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:0ht613won6&diff=59372&oldid=59334&rcid=88755 * 0ht613won6 * (+4550) /* College students should know how to allocate the vacation ti */ new section
  60. # [12:07] <Loqi> [[User:4jy129oda8]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:4jy129oda8&diff=59373&oldid=59335&rcid=88756 * 4jy129oda8 * (+2152) /* Argentina and Chile border a volcano gas between the two cou */ new section
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  64. # [12:26] <Loqi> [[The Best Ways To Get Your Article Read]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=The_Best_Ways_To_Get_Your_Article_Read&diff=59375&oldid=59361&rcid=88758 * Barteam96 * (+289)
  65. # [12:40] <Loqi> [[iso-8601]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=iso-8601&diff=59377&oldid=50194&rcid=88775 * TomMorris * (+154) adding XKCD comic
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  83. # [16:29] <Loqi> [[User:9ic743ykj1]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:9ic743ykj1&diff=59402&oldid=59386&rcid=88870 * 9ic743ykj1 * (+4516) /* The Russian fifth generation fighter T50 successful first fl */ new section
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  90. # [16:52] <Loqi> [[User:0xy741xdw8]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:0xy741xdw8&diff=59408&oldid=59383&rcid=88876 * 0xy741xdw8 * (+2591) /* at that time */ new section
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  104. # [17:55] <Loqi> [[User:Herodxl71c]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:Herodxl71c&diff=59419&oldid=59417&rcid=88887 * Herodxl71c * (+3281) /* Custom Packers Jerseys Xfo98Qu - So using this product line */ new section
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  109. # [18:51] <@tantek> tommorris - it just happens to be the 227th day of the year
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  111. # [18:52] <@tantek> coincidentally with that XKCD cartoon
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  114. # [19:00] <Loqi> [[User:9ic743ykj1]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:9ic743ykj1&diff=59424&oldid=59402&rcid=88892 * 9ic743ykj1 * (+3796) /* Philippines 15 senior officials and media face prosecution. */ new section
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  118. # [19:36] <tommorris> tantek: Nifty.
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  122. # [20:15] <Loqi> [[User:0xy741xdw8]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:0xy741xdw8&diff=59430&oldid=59408&rcid=88898 * 0xy741xdw8 * (+4179) /* don't say your born under a bad sign */ new section
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  127. # [21:49] <aaronpk> 3 minutes until tantek: hello
  128. # [21:49] <Loqi> I added a countdown scheduled for 8/15 12:55pm (#5234)
  129. # [21:51] <Loqi> tantek: hello
  130. # [21:55] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.135.116)
  131. # [21:55] <erlehmann> tantek, tell!
  132. # [21:56] <@tantek> I like the title - "The Uncomplicated Web" of http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/tmp/docs/the-uncomplicated-web.html
  133. # [21:56] <@tantek> there is a lot of good advice here
  134. # [21:56] <erlehmann> the thing is, i am not entirely against stuff that disregards the guideline.
  135. # [21:56] <erlehmann> i just think that most of it *will* be complicated
  136. # [21:57] <@tantek> erlehmann - how do you note exceptions?
  137. # [21:57] <erlehmann> tantek, qualify “exception”.
  138. # [21:57] <@tantek> "not entirely against"
  139. # [21:57] <erlehmann> > No pagination, except for collections of self-contained compositions or very long lists.
  140. # [21:57] <@tantek> right
  141. # [21:57] <@tantek> also - do you have tools to test these guidelines?
  142. # [21:58] <@tantek> if you could link to them - that would be useful!
  143. # [21:58] <erlehmann> well, you can of course render your embedded postscript you fetched via ajax in a web worker thread and display it on the go – but that is no longer uncomplicated.
  144. # [21:58] <erlehmann> i actually planned to write some, for my own pages. i did not.
  145. # [21:58] <@tantek> i mean even simple stuff like transfer size - counting
  146. # [21:58] <@tantek> or # of resources
  147. # [21:59] <@tantek> would be great if you had (or linked to) tools to check those things
  148. # [21:59] <erlehmann> heh, i tested transfer size with curl.
  149. # [21:59] <erlehmann> i wrote that article when i found that the signal to noise ratio is very high
  150. # [21:59] <@tantek> oh sweet! - perhaps an example command line to use?
  151. # [21:59] <@tantek> and shell commands to check the size?
  152. # [22:00] <erlehmann> like, for 50k of text, i get 2MB of advertising and tracking
  153. # [22:00] <erlehmann> ah, very low
  154. # [22:00] <erlehmann> sorry. signal to noise is very low. small. low signal, high noise.
  155. # [22:00] <shaners> erlehmann: wrt mf2 parsers outputting json: one of the big benefits is that lotsa programming languages can output json. so we use it as a way to confirm that all of our mf2 parsers are doing the same thing.
  156. # [22:00] <aaronpk> hey erlehmann, reading the post now too. lots of good advice there for sure
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  158. # [22:04] <erlehmann> shaners, i understand!
  159. # [22:04] <shaners> cool
  160. # [22:05] <erlehmann> the simpler a format, the simpler to compare the output.
  161. # [22:05] <erlehmann> desudesudesu /home/erlehmann
  162. # [22:05] <erlehmann> 1011 ~ % curl http://example.org -w '%{size_download}' -s | tail -n1
  163. # [22:05] <erlehmann> 1270%
  164. # [22:05] <erlehmann> tantek!
  165. # [22:05] <shaners> how's the h-entry coming for your site?
  166. # [22:06] <erlehmann> you are just tantek with a different name!
  167. # [22:07] <@tantek> no he's not!
  168. # [22:07] <aaronpk> lol!
  169. # [22:08] <@tantek> shaners, add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people :)
  170. # [22:08] <erlehmann> tantek http://newestindustry.org/2006/10/03/baseline-testing-with-curl-2/
  171. # [22:09] <erlehmann> i once got k-lined at foonetic
  172. # [22:09] <erlehmann> because people were assuming i were a bot
  173. # [22:09] <erlehmann> and i was just telling them i was not a bot whenevery they suspected it
  174. # [22:09] <erlehmann> so they thought i was a bot telling everyone he is not a bot
  175. # [22:09] <erlehmann> (of course, i am not a bot)
  176. # [22:09] <@tantek> erlehmann - cool (re: curl link) - perhaps add it to a list of tools section in your
  177. # [22:09] <@tantek> "The Uncomplicated Web" post?
  178. # [22:10] <@tantek> that would be more discoverable than IRC archives :)
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  180. # [22:10] <bret> I think we have a bot on our hands
  181. # [22:10] <erlehmann> tantek, this is an even better post http://dev.nuclearrooster.com/2009/11/08/checking-gzipdeflate-server-responses-with-curl/
  182. # [22:10] <erlehmann> bret, not me!
  183. # [22:10] <@tantek> great - your choice!
  184. # [22:10] <erlehmann> look who's talking!
  185. # [22:11] <bret> You were written by your opinionated master!
  186. # [22:11] <@tantek> erlhemann - let me know when you've updated http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/tmp/docs/the-uncomplicated-web.html
  187. # [22:11] <bret> to spread ideas faster than he could!
  188. # [22:12] <erlehmann> 1027 ~ % curl -s -o /dev/null -w '%{size_download}' http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/
  189. # [22:12] <erlehmann> 41714
  190. # [22:12] <erlehmann> 1028 ~ % curl -s -o /dev/null -w '%{size_download}' http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/ --compressed
  191. # [22:12] <erlehmann> 12893
  192. # [22:12] <erlehmann> so easy!
  193. # [22:12] <erlehmann> :)
  194. # [22:12] <@tantek> erlehmann - great - add one of those example curl lines to your post and update it!
  195. # [22:13] <erlehmann> i'll better link to http://dev.nuclearrooster.com/2009/11/08/checking-gzipdeflate-server-responses-with-curl/
  196. # [22:14] <erlehmann> hmmm.
  197. # [22:14] <erlehmann> i better make a separate test tools suite.
  198. # [22:14] <@tantek> that would be great too!
  199. # [22:16] <erlehmann> it would be better. i think there is no universal tool besides -prefix-free that i can recommend.
  200. # [22:16] <erlehmann> (and -prefix-free really speeds up development)
  201. # [22:18] <erlehmann> tantek, actually would like to know the psychology behind this „let's make a web page that does not fit on a floppy“ thing i see lately
  202. # [22:18] <@tantek> erhlehmann - not sure - URL?
  203. # [22:18] <erlehmann> i only met one guy who told me the reason is that he needed money, because he had debts
  204. # [22:18] <erlehmann> financial debt. so his blog is full of advertising.
  205. # [22:19] <erlehmann> tantek, take any newspaper web site and measure signal to noise ratio. or take twitter, 1,5MB or so of assets to display 140 characters.
  206. # [22:20] <erlehmann> there must be something behind that that goes beyond “just use jquery”. these sites are not all built buy inexperienced people with overpowered hardware.
  207. # [22:20] <erlehmann> s/buy/by/g
  208. # [22:20] <Loqi> erlehmann meant to say: there must be something behind that that goes beyond “just use jquery”. these sites are not all built by inexperienced people with overpowered hardware.
  209. # [22:20] <erlehmann> is that a bot?
  210. # [22:20] <erlehmann> s/bot/regex\ bot/g
  211. # [22:20] <Loqi> erlehmann meant to say: is that a regex\ bot?
  212. # [22:20] <erlehmann> lawl :3
  213. # [22:21] <erlehmann> abc
  214. # [22:21] <@tantek> 123
  215. # [22:21] <bret> I belive in Loqi
  216. # [22:22] <erlehmann> s/([ab]+)[ab]/\1/g
  217. # [22:22] * Loqi grins profusely
  218. # [22:22] <Loqi> erlehmann meant to say: ac
  219. # [22:22] <erlehmann> what
  220. # [22:24] <erlehmann> s/w/'';!--"<XSS>=&{()}/g
  221. # [22:24] <Loqi> erlehmann meant to say: '';!--"<XSS>=&{()}hat
  222. # [22:24] <erlehmann> great success :3
  223. # [22:26] <erlehmann> s/3/1\n2/g
  224. # [22:26] <Loqi> erlehmann meant to say: great success :1\n2
  225. # [22:26] <erlehmann> (i'll stop)
  226. # [22:26] <Loqi> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=irc-people&diff=59437&oldid=53912&rcid=88905 * Veganstraightedge * (-58) added myself to irc-people
  227. # [22:26] * Quits: oliveiraev (~Evandro@201.81.97.254) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  228. # [22:29] <@tantek> shaners - did you just sort irc-people as well?!?
  229. # [22:29] <shaners> yes
  230. # [22:29] <@tantek> wow - were there dups? hence the -58?
  231. # [22:29] <shaners> yep
  232. # [22:29] <shaners> it just took a second in textmate
  233. # [22:30] <shaners> well, not that many dups
  234. # [22:30] <@tantek> um oops - except it's no longer sorted by name
  235. # [22:30] <@tantek> e.g. first entry is "Jeremy Keith"
  236. # [22:30] <shaners> oh shit. it's sorted by irc username.
  237. # [22:30] <shaners> adactio
  238. # [22:31] <shaners> i'll fix it up.
  239. # [22:31] <shaners> kinda wanna rewrite it as a table anyhow.
  240. # [22:31] <shaners> any objection to that?
  241. # [22:32] <@tantek> shaners - table, ugh
  242. # [22:32] <@tantek> :/
  243. # [22:32] <shaners> displays better
  244. # [22:32] <@tantek> actually we should just show the irc alias first
  245. # [22:32] <@tantek> let me see if I can minor hack the template
  246. # [22:32] <shaners> it IS tabular data
  247. # [22:32] <@tantek> not all tabular data presents well as a table
  248. # [22:33] <shaners> i seem to remember some guy saying that data tables were a good thing for tabular data :P
  249. # [22:33] <shaners> http://tantek.com/presentations/2013/07/microformats2/?full#html5-tables-result
  250. # [22:34] <@tantek> tabular data usually implies some relationship among things in the same column
  251. # [22:34] <shaners> uh… yeah. a column of irc usernames, a column of wiki usernames, a column of urls, a column of timezones
  252. # [22:37] <@tantek> shaners - you're convincing me slowly ;)
  253. # [22:37] <shaners> that's what i do!
  254. # [22:38] <shaners> use case: sort this table to show me all the irc folks in/near my timezone
  255. # [22:42] <@tantek> yeah. I'm fixing data inconsistency first (which led to the sorting error)
  256. # [22:43] <Loqi> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=irc-people&diff=59439&oldid=59437&rcid=88907 * Tantek * (+150) add ??? and parenthesize those who put their full names but not their IRC nicknames
  257. # [22:44] <erlehmann> tantek, have a description for tabular data that does not present well as a table?
  258. # [22:51] <@tantek> erlhemann, usually when it presents better as prose (with prose spacing), rather than columnar spacing (large spaces that interrupt horizontal reading flow).
  259. # [22:51] <Loqi> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=irc-people&diff=59441&oldid=59439&rcid=88909 * Tantek * (+15) fix haibtdt use of template, and RobertBachmann parentheses
  260. # [22:52] <@tantek> shaners - it looks like you sorted by wiki Username: rather than by IRC nickname
  261. # [22:52] <@tantek> could you fix?
  262. # [22:52] <@tantek> (now that I've fixed the errant entries that may have made it unclear what was what)
  263. # [22:52] <@tantek> (fix sort order that is)
  264. # [22:52] <shaners> yes. i'll fix it up.
  265. # [22:55] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  266. # [22:55] <@tantek> much thanks
  267. # [22:56] <@tantek> shaners - give the tabular markup a try - might as well see how it looks (does it help readability etc.)
  268. # [22:57] * Quits: jgay (~jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  269. # [23:05] * Joins: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@46-239-239-203.tal.is)
  270. # [23:07] <Loqi> [[h-entry]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=h-entry&diff=59442&oldid=58678&rcid=88910 * Tantek * (+1106) /* Backward Compatibility */ add compat faq with What about rel bookmark
  271. # [23:11] <erlehmann> again here
  272. # [23:11] <erlehmann> tantek “rel is always document scoped in HTML5” is wrong according to WHATWG spec.
  273. # [23:12] <@tantek> erlehmann, citation?
  274. # [23:15] <erlehmann> tantek, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#link-type-bookmark
  275. # [23:15] <erlehmann> > The bookmark keyword gives a permalink for the nearest ancestor article element of the linking element in question, or of the section the linking element is most closely associated with, if there are no ancestor article elements.
  276. # [23:15] <erlehmann> also http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#link-type-author
  277. # [23:15] <erlehmann> > For a and area elements, the author keyword indicates that the referenced document provides further information about the author of the nearest article element ancestor of the element defining the hyperlink, if there is one, or of the page as a whole, otherwise.
  278. # [23:16] <erlehmann> i cannot use e-content because i have no content-wrapping stuff
  279. # [23:16] <erlehmann> the insides of the article element is the content
  280. # [23:18] <Loqi> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=irc-people&diff=59443&oldid=59441&rcid=88911 * Tantek * (+12) fix a few more
  281. # [23:19] <@tantek> erlehmann - then use class="e-content" on the article element itself
  282. # [23:19] <@tantek> assuming it's inside the h-entry as a div or something
  283. # [23:20] <Loqi> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=irc-people&diff=59444&oldid=59443&rcid=88912 * Tantek * (+6) one more
  284. # [23:20] <erlehmann> for my actual microblog use case, h-entry looks like bloat. i do not have a full social profile to show off.
  285. # [23:20] <erlehmann> i have u-url and dt-published already
  286. # [23:21] <Loqi> [[Template:irc user]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Template:irc_user&diff=59445&oldid=46280&rcid=88913 * Tantek * (-58) dropping hcard markup because this simple wiki template syntax doesn't afford any clues to precise semantics. need something field based (like on WP).
  287. # [23:21] <@tantek> erlehmann - you don't need full social profile
  288. # [23:21] <erlehmann> and u-url is already covered by rel=bookmark
  289. # [23:22] <@tantek> just a name, image with alt as name, or even hyperlinked is fine
  290. # [23:22] <@tantek> rel=bookmark is from hAtom
  291. # [23:22] <@tantek> if you want to use h-entry you must use u-url
  292. # [23:22] <erlehmann> tantek, the only thing that my web site does not provide machine readably currently is that the time displayed is the time at which the article was published
  293. # [23:22] <@tantek> that's dt-published
  294. # [23:23] <erlehmann> rel=bookmark scopes to the nearest article element and is in the html5 spec
  295. # [23:23] <erlehmann> yeah
  296. # [23:23] <erlehmann> i try to find out if there is something that is easier than h-entry. reading up on h-entry in the process
  297. # [23:23] <erlehmann> i think it is too heavyweight for me.
  298. # [23:23] <erlehmann> generall, are properties the plain text content of elements?
  299. # [23:26] <@tantek> erlehmann - hAtom predates HTML5
  300. # [23:26] <@tantek> in terms of defining rel=bookmark
  301. # [23:26] <@tantek> and in HTML4, rel=bookmark was also page scoped
  302. # [23:26] <@tantek> it's likely this is an error in HTML5 that will have to get fixed
  303. # [23:26] <erlehmann> tantek, later definitions overrule. hAtom actually looks easy!
  304. # [23:26] <erlehmann> i'll use hAtom then
  305. # [23:26] <@tantek> erlehmann - nope, later definitions do not get to break backward compat
  306. # [23:26] <erlehmann> looks way easier than h-entry
  307. # [23:26] <@tantek> erlehmann - you're the first to say that! (re: hAtom easier than h-entry)
  308. # [23:26] <@tantek> everyone else sees h-entry as simpler
  309. # [23:26] <@tantek> interesting
  310. # [23:26] <Hixie> <article> wasn't in html4
  311. # [23:26] <Hixie> so there's no back-compat breakage
  312. # [23:26] <shaners> whoa. it's a Hixie. in the wild.
  313. # [23:27] <erlehmann> tantek, the source code of hipster news is easier since i can assume scoping to <article>
  314. # [23:27] <erlehmann> Hixie, is there an simple way to markup the <article> pubdate? the pubdate attribute was removed, was it?
  315. # [23:27] <shaners> erlehmann: dt-published
  316. # [23:28] <Hixie> erlehmann: yeah, seach for "publication date" in the html spec (http://whatwg.org/C)
  317. # [23:28] <erlehmann> shaners, scopes to something that has to have a class name, not to <article>
  318. # [23:28] <Hixie> er, http://whatwg.org/c
  319. # [23:28] <erlehmann> thx
  320. # [23:28] <@tantek> erlehmann - you can use hAtom if you wish, there are other consumers of hAtom, and the microformats2 parsing spec has back-compat notes for a few existing vocabularies.
  321. # [23:29] <@tantek> hAtom is basically frozen (except for any odd bug fixes people come up with)
  322. # [23:29] <shaners> erlehmann: why don't you want to use classes?
  323. # [23:29] <@tantek> h-entry is where modern semantic post markup is being developed
  324. # [23:29] <erlehmann> tantek, i find the implicit scoping of rel values way easier than the class thingy.
  325. # [23:29] <@tantek> erlehmann - then you're definitely an exception
  326. # [23:29] <erlehmann> shaners, i already have <article> – why should i add a class?
  327. # [23:30] <shaners> bc my parser doesn't know or care what container element you use for an h-entry
  328. # [23:30] <erlehmann> tantek, i want to write less verbose pages with the same information.
  329. # [23:30] <@tantek> typical authors find it easier to just use class, for the object (h-entry), for content (e-content), for permalinks (u-url u-uid)
  330. # [23:30] <shaners> you could, for example, make an <li class="h-entry">
  331. # [23:30] <@tantek> erlehmann - HTML5 doesn't have everything you need for Atom semantics - that got dropped a while ago.
  332. # [23:31] <@tantek> so if you want to do entries, you'll have to add things
  333. # [23:31] <@tantek> and once you do that, it's simpler to "just" use h-entry
  334. # [23:31] <@tantek> rather than mixing things across approaches
  335. # [23:31] <@tantek> but like I said, you have the option to "just" use hAtom as well if that's your preference
  336. # [23:32] <Hixie> shaners: boo, you shouldn't ignore the semantics of the elements :-)
  337. # [23:32] <erlehmann> i want it to be easy to consume. so i'll go html5 spec first and then look elsewhere
  338. # [23:32] <erlehmann> tantek, i'll just use what the spec says about publication date and see how it goes.
  339. # [23:33] <shaners> erlehmann: the html5 spec and mf2 are not mutually exclusive
  340. # [23:33] * Hixie thinks erlehmann is about to be disappointed, unfortunately
  341. # [23:33] <erlehmann> shaners, no, but i don't need mf2 for hipster news, apparently.
  342. # [23:33] <@tantek> erlehmann, if you want it be easy to consume, then you should focus on h-entry - which is what the parsers are primarily consuming for indieweb purposes
  343. # [23:34] <@tantek> of course your markup should be valid HTML5 so that browsers do the right thing :)
  344. # [23:34] <Hixie> (the html spec uses "a fictional microdata vocabulary based on the Atom vocabulary" in one example, and schema.org in the other two)
  345. # [23:34] <shaners> erlehmann: i'm not sure anymore what you're trying to accomplish
  346. # [23:35] <@tantek> Hixie, perhaps one of the two schema examples should use h-entry instead to show even more diversity of approaches
  347. # [23:35] <Hixie> i don't think h-entry really existed back when these examples were written, but yeah, feel free to file a bug with some sample code and i'll try to add it
  348. # [23:35] <erlehmann> shaners, easy authoring, easy parsing. h-entry looks complicated to me, compared to „scope to nearest article element and use link relations“
  349. # [23:36] <Hixie> erlehmann: at the risk of restarting the conversation from the top, what are you trying to do, at a high level? :-)
  350. # [23:36] <erlehmann> schema org has “isFamilyFriendly”
  351. # [23:36] <erlehmann> awwww
  352. # [23:36] <erlehmann> Hixie, i have a minimalist blog software running at http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net
  353. # [23:37] <erlehmann> i want to make the content more accessible. but i found that the only thing that is missing is that the article publication date is denoted assuch
  354. # [23:37] <erlehmann> (source code of the blog software can be downloaded at the bottom of the page)
  355. # [23:37] <Hixie> what do you mean by "accessible" ?
  356. # [23:38] <erlehmann> machine-readable.
  357. # [23:38] <erlehmann> so i already have a feed. maybe i'll just add a link rel=alternate
  358. # [23:38] <Hixie> what do you mean by "machine-readable"?
  359. # [23:39] <erlehmann> i want a crawler to be able to infer the semantics of the document. like this: http://services.w3.org/xslt?xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fservices.w3.org%2Ftidy%2Ftidy%3FdocAddr%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fnews.dieweltistgarnichtso.net%26passThroughXHTML%3D1&xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F08%2Fextract-semantic.xsl
  360. # [23:39] <Hixie> why?
  361. # [23:39] <Hixie> that seems like a solution. what's the high-level problem you're trying to solve?
  362. # [23:39] * Loqi gives erlehmann a crawler to be able to infer the semantics of the document
  363. # [23:39] * Joins: samkottler (~samkottle@redhat/samkottler)
  364. # [23:41] <erlehmann> i want the content to be accessible for a broadest range of users this includes users with diminished sensor or computational capability.
  365. # [23:41] * Loqi gives erlehmann the content to be accessible for a broadest range of users this includes users with diminished sensor or computational capability
  366. # [23:42] <Loqi> [[h-entry]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=h-entry&diff=59446&oldid=59442&rcid=88914 * Tantek * (+328) /* What about rel bookmark */ note rel typically document scoped, and rel=bookmark special casing is not particularly author-friendly for understanding rel values in general
  367. # [23:42] <erlehmann> hixie, i have thought about the issue and now think that linking to a feed of the content actually achieves this already.
  368. # [23:42] <Hixie> erlehmann: what makes you think the content is not already accessible by everyone?
  369. # [23:43] <erlehmann> nothing, it was just an idea. ex falso quodlibet.
  370. # [23:43] <erlehmann> thank you for your socratic questioning.
  371. # [23:44] <erlehmann> Hixie, something completely different, what does distinguish <title> and the top-most <h1> element?
  372. # [23:45] <Hixie> <title> is what ends up in the bookmark if you bookmark the page, in the back button menu or history menu if you navigate to another page, and what ends up in the window caption
  373. # [23:45] <Hixie> <h1> is what gets drawn in the content area
  374. # [23:46] <erlehmann> Hixie, for the purpose of outlining, can i only have a <title> at the outermost layer? like here: <http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/tmp/docs/collaborative-decision-making.html>
  375. # [23:47] <Hixie> <title>s don't participate in outline creation
  376. # [23:47] <erlehmann> why not?
  377. # [23:48] <Hixie> <title> is the text that appears on the index card in the library card index. <h1> is what appears on the book cover.
  378. # [23:49] <erlehmann> so <title> is supposedt to be more descriptive, summary-like?
  379. # [23:50] <Hixie> yeah. the html spec discusses this some, i think.
  380. # [23:51] <Hixie> "The title element represents the document's title or name. Authors should use titles that identify their documents even when they are used out of context, for example in a user's history or bookmarks, or in search results. The document's title is often different from its first heading, since the first heading does not have to stand alone when taken out of context."
  381. # [23:51] * Joins: gjones (~gjones@cpc22-brig15-2-0-cust92.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
  382. # [23:51] <erlehmann> i see.
  383. # [23:54] <erlehmann> thx
  384. # Session Close: Fri Aug 16 00:00:00 2013

The end :)