/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2013-09-15 / end

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1. # Session Start: Sun Sep 15 00:00:00 2013
2. # Session Ident: #microformats
3. # [00:13] * Quits: Soopaman (~soopaman@72.53.90.100) (Quit: Leaving.)
4. # [00:23] <Loqi> [@pkbot] aaronpk created branch microformats2 at aaronpk/calagator https://github.com/aaronpk/calagator/compare/microformats2 [Github] (http://twtr.io/cbWWQhumKj)
5. # [00:24] <aaronpk> ohai pkbot
6. # [00:44] <@tantek> :)
7. # [00:44] <@tantek> bots mentioning bots!
8. # [00:49] <Loqi> [@istiaak] Author hReview: Show Google Rich Snippet Star Rating in Search Results http://roadtoblogging.com/show-star-rating-in-google-search/ (http://twtr.io/cbYomM6Yjo)
9. # [02:10] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Tantek * protected "[[Home Mortgages: Top Tips To Get You The Best Deal]]": block spam [create=sysop]
10. # [02:23] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Tantek * protected "[[Deer Antler Spray Review]]": block spam [create=sysop]
11. # [02:41] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Tantek * protected "[[Home Cash Package Online]]": block spam [create=sysop]
12. # [02:50] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-issues&diff=63543&oldid=63461&rcid=99641 * Tantek * (+405) resolve type attribute issue/request
13. # [02:54] <Loqi> [[events/2013-09-14-microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=events/2013-09-14-microformats2-parsing&diff=63544&oldid=63331&rcid=99642 * Tantek * (+144) updated attendees
14. # [02:58] <@tantek> tommorris, I've updated microformats2 parsing and issues pages a bunch from today's discussions. Still have to incorporate full etherpad into event wiki page.
15. # [02:58] <@tantek> off to bed for now
16. # [03:10] <Loqi> [@t] Excellent #microformats2 parsing meetup brunch with @glennjones @adactio @tommorris. Issues resolved. On wiki tomorrow (ttk.me t4S25) (http://twtr.io/cbkSfo3fij)
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42. # [04:57] <Loqi> [[User talk:AndyMabbett]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:AndyMabbett&diff=63577&oldid=59705&rcid=99675 * 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 * (+53714)
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46. # [05:04] <Loqi> [[User:ezldtlcz]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:ezldtlcz&diff=63581&oldid=63549&rcid=99679 * Ezldtlcz * (+3424) /* Sådan fungerer de politiske partier */ new section
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49. # [08:30] <Loqi> [@ericosiu] Reviews: Author HReview Plugin http://graywolfseo.com/reviews/author-hreview-plugin/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter via @graywolf (http://twtr.io/ccEG42n7E9)
50. # [09:32] <Loqi> [@OnTheWebz] RT @t: Excellent #microformats2 parsing meetup brunch with @glennjones @adactio @tommorris. Issues resolved. On wiki tomorrow (ttk.me t4S25) (http://twtr.io/ccKs7T3Ect)
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58. # [11:49] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=63614&oldid=63574&rcid=99712 * TomMorris * (-46941) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
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62. # [12:20] <tommorris> hey gjones - good to see you yesterday. am working on the Ruby implementation at the moment.
63. # [12:23] <gjones> yes it was good to catch up, hoping to get some work upgrading my parsers to tomorrow
64. # [12:24] <tommorris> just adding rels and alternates to existing Ruby parser
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67. # [12:26] <gjones> its going to be so good to have a fuller spread of parsers in different languages
68. # [12:30] <tommorris> indeed. nice thing with the Ruby one is they've done the hard work, they've just got lots of fiddly things to fix
69. # [12:44] <Loqi> [@tommorris] Doing some open sourcery: adding new code to the Ruby microformats2 parser, after helping with amending t... http://tommorris.org/posts/8551 (http://twtr.io/ccc3_rtfG1)
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73. # [13:03] <tommorris> hey tantek
74. # [13:03] <tommorris> https://github.com/G5/microformats2/pull/12 ← just submitted rels/alternates support to the Ruby microformats2 parser
75. # [13:36] <@tantek> tommorris - great!
76. # [13:36] <@tantek> if you see jlsuttles around - say hi
77. # [13:40] <tommorris> am going to have a go at Pigeon-related stuff this afternoon
78. # [13:53] <Loqi> [[Category:public domain license]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Category:public_domain_license&diff=63639&oldid=63551&rcid=99749 * Tantek * (-50345) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
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88. # [13:59] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * Tantek * protected "[[SEO]]": protect due to vandalism [edit=sysop:move=sysop]
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101. # [14:01] <Loqi> [[User talk:AndyMabbett]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User_talk:AndyMabbett&diff=63666&oldid=63577&rcid=99778 * Tantek * (-53714) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
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106. # [14:02] <@tantek> benward - we really need your help with upgrading the MediaWiki install on the microformats wiki.
107. # [14:02] <@tantek> The Localsettings.php anti-spam measures are just not working since the MediaWiki version is too old.
108. # [14:03] <@tantek> benward if you get stuck with odd breakages while upgrading, please ping tommorris and maybe he can help find answers.
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126. # [14:27] <@tantek> tommorris - I think we've undone all the damage from last night / this morning.
127. # [14:27] <@tantek> still annoyed that none of the LocalSettings.php settings seem to be working to stop this kind of thing :/
128. # [14:28] <@tantek> tommorris - can you suggest a re-ordering/reprioritizing of the items here http://microformats.org/wiki/admin-to-do#wiki in order of easiest to attempt / greatest chance at reducing spam/vandalism?
129. # [14:29] <@tantek> especially this list in particular: http://microformats.org/wiki/admin-to-do#spam_fighting
130. # [14:39] <@tantek> what's weird about the LocalSettings stuff is that *some* of it works (e.g. blocking new users from moving pages)
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133. # [14:39] <@tantek> but some doesn't (e.g. blocking new users from creating pages)
134. # [14:39] <@tantek> welcome adactio
135. # [14:39] <@tantek> does this FAQ help? http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#FAQ
136. # [14:40] <@adactio> adactio: yes, very handy.
137. # [15:01] <tommorris> tantek: installing AbuseFilter would be very helpful
138. # [15:01] <@tantek> tommorris - can you update http://microformats.org/wiki/admin-to-do#spam_fighting accordingly? is that the best thing to do? how do we install it? etc.?
139. # [15:02] <@tantek> could really use your input on all the wiki improvement suggestions there
140. # [15:03] <Loqi> [[admin-to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=admin-to-do&diff=63688&oldid=53983&rcid=99911 * TomMorris * (+239) /* spam fighting */ abusefilter
141. # [15:06] <tommorris> tantek: I'm going to set up a test account without admin rights on to see if autoconfirmed works
142. # [15:07] <@tantek> thanks tommorris - just sent an email to you and fellow admins with a call for help
143. # [15:07] <tommorris> yeah, just saw
144. # [15:12] <tommorris> tantek: LocalSettings change - to make the autoconfirmed work, you need to ensure createpage is false for * too - see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Preventing_access#Restrict_page_creation
145. # [15:12] <tommorris> one little change should do it. ;)
146. # [15:13] <tommorris> if you can do that, I'll add some UI text and so on to explain to users why they can't create pages
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148. # [15:22] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * TomMorris * protected "[[Microformats Wiki:Administrators]]": redirect shouldn't need to change [edit=sysop:move=sysop]
149. # [15:22] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/protect]] protect * TomMorris * protected "[[Microformats Wiki:Bureaucrats]]": redirect shouldn't need to change [edit=sysop:move=sysop]
150. # [15:32] <@tantek> tommorris - should I do the * thing for move movefile also?
151. # [15:32] <@tantek> going to do that assuming what's true for createpage is true for those too
152. # [15:34] <@tantek> also doing for wgRateLimits
153. # [15:34] <@tantek> e.g. $wgRateLimits['edit']['*'] = array( 2, 900 );
154. # [15:35] <Loqi> [[admin-to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=admin-to-do&diff=63695&oldid=63688&rcid=99919 * Tantek * (+150) improve home page
155. # [15:36] <Loqi> [[admin-to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=admin-to-do&diff=63696&oldid=63695&rcid=99920 * Tantek * (+183) rel canonical sounds good for redirects
156. # [15:36] <tommorris> yeah, move file too
157. # [15:36] <Loqi> [[admin-to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=admin-to-do&diff=63697&oldid=63696&rcid=99921 * Tantek * (+169) reprocess old items
158. # [15:36] <@tantek> tommorris - ok done
159. # [15:37] <@tantek> for move, movefile, and ratelimits
160. # [15:37] <@tantek> and I just made 3 quick edits to make sure I didn't screw up ratelimits for registered users (or at least admins :) )
161. # [15:37] <@tantek> I'm off to go boulder to work out wiki-frustrations
162. # [15:37] <@tantek> you have the con
163. # [15:37] <@tantek> :)
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165. # [15:39] <tommorris> newbs can't create pages
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167. # [15:40] <Loqi> [[html-stripping-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=html-stripping-examples&diff=63698&oldid=63447&rcid=99922 * TomMorris * (+1482) adding AntiSamy Project
168. # [15:46] <Loqi> [[admin-to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=admin-to-do&diff=63699&oldid=63697&rcid=99923 * TomMorris * (+271) /* spam fighting */ resp
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174. # [17:06] <Loqi> [[MediaWiki:Noarticletext]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Noarticletext&diff=63700&oldid=30708&rcid=99925 * TomMorris * (+143) copying in default
175. # [17:10] <Loqi> [[MediaWiki:Noarticletext]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Noarticletext&diff=63701&oldid=63700&rcid=99926 * TomMorris * (+275) put in a notice about new users not being able to create pages
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198. # [21:51] <tommorris> so, you can put microformats inside SVG. https://gist.github.com/anonymous/6573807
199. # [22:03] * Joins: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-89-241-115-40.as13285.net)
200. # [22:04] <tommorris> hey barnabywalters
201. # [22:05] <tommorris> two things: https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/29
202. # [22:05] <tommorris> and also, your PHP parser handles uf2-in-SVG. congratulations. ;)
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204. # [22:09] <barnabywalters> good evening tommorris
205. # [22:10] <barnabywalters> ooh, weird issue. I can probably fix that by just creating new stdclass instead of array if there aren’t any rel values
206. # [22:10] <barnabywalters> yeah, it should handle any XML-compatible markup :)
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211. # [22:26] <barnabywalters> tommorris: closed, thanks :)
212. # [22:27] <tommorris> I'm going to look into RDFa and microdata and whether they can be snuck into SVG-in-HTML at some point
213. # [22:28] <barnabywalters> tommorris: why shouldn’t they be? or are all the various new properties not valid SVG?
214. # [22:28] <tommorris> not sure, need to investigate and try parsers and so on
215. # [22:29] <tommorris> also, the changes tantek made to the wiki earlier seem to be working. no spam!
216. # [22:29] <@tantek> tommorris - I've noticed no spam since the changes
217. # [22:29] <@tantek> jinx
218. # [22:29] <barnabywalters> YAY
219. # [22:29] <barnabywalters> thanks tantek
220. # [22:29] <tommorris> touch wood, pray to the gods of the Pantheon, stand on one leg and refer to it only as "the Scottish play"
221. # [22:30] <barnabywalters> :D
222. # [22:31] <barnabywalters> tommorris: http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2 now running latest version, with correct empty rels behaviour
223. # [22:31] <tommorris> cool. :)
224. # [22:37] <barnabywalters> so, were the parser discussions and resolutions documented somewhere? I could do with some work to do on 5 hour coach trip tomorrow
225. # [22:41] <Loqi> [[html-stripping-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=html-stripping-examples&diff=63702&oldid=63698&rcid=99927 * Barnabywalters * (+633) added HTMLPurifier
226. # [22:44] <@tantek> barnabywalters - yes - they're all documented in the Etherpad right now
227. # [22:44] <@tantek> and have not quite made it to the wiki - I'm working on that
228. # [22:44] <@tantek> but the wiki does have some additional resolutions
229. # [22:44] <@tantek> and I've been making edits to microformats2-parsing along the way
230. # [22:46] * Quits: gjones (~gjones@cpc22-brig15-2-0-cust92.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com) (Quit: gjones)
231. # [22:46] <@tantek> barnabywatlers - start here: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/microformats2parsing
232. # [22:47] <barnabywalters> tantek: I have a fix for microformats2-parsing but can’t edit. is it locked?
233. # [22:47] <barnabywalters> thanks
234. # [22:47] <@tantek> barnabywalters - yeah sorry about that
235. # [22:47] <@tantek> ok I'll unprotect it optimistically since it seems like we stopped a bunch of the spam
236. # [22:47] <@tantek> what's the fix?
237. # [22:47] <barnabywalters> “HTML: The Good Parts” — lol
238. # [22:47] <barnabywalters> do it ;)
239. # [22:48] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/protect]] modify * Tantek * changed protection level for "[[microformats2-parsing]]": allow registered users [edit=autoconfirmed:move=autoconfirmed]
240. # [22:48] <barnabywalters> the “start with this structure” doesn’t have an alternates key: []
241. # [22:48] <@tantek> heh
242. # [22:49] <tommorris> oh, we have edit:autoconfirmed now. that's semi-protection in WP speak
243. # [22:49] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=63704&oldid=63703&rcid=99929 * Barnabywalters * (+38) /* parse a document for microformats */ added alternates key to starting structure
244. # [22:50] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=63705&oldid=63704&rcid=99930 * Tantek * (+0) putting alternates last, as that's where it belongs
245. # [22:51] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=63706&oldid=63705&rcid=99931 * Barnabywalters * (-85) /* parse a hyperlink element for rel microformats */ removed redundant array creation instructions
246. # [22:51] <tommorris> here's the full protection list - http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Special:ProtectedPages&limit=500&type=edit&level=0&sizetype=min
247. # [22:51] <@tantek> it's ok - we can leave pages protected until people ask to edit them
248. # [22:51] <tommorris> it'd be helpful if people could have a look through that and see if there's anything that needs unprotecting
249. # [22:52] <@tantek> hey barnabywalters - is it easier to always have the alternates key there?
250. # [22:52] <@tantek> I mean, I see now what you suggested, but what was wrong with leaving it create-on-need only?
251. # [22:53] <tommorris> we could probably also delete the pages that we created to protect them from spam.
252. # [22:56] <barnabywalters> tantek: this way is cleaner — it also means clients can always count on there being an alternates key
253. # [22:56] <barnabywalters> less work for parsers, less work for consumers
254. # [22:56] <@tantek> tommorris - most of those were just redirects to our "seo" page
255. # [22:56] <@tantek> which is fine
256. # [22:56] <@tantek> barnabywalters - few consumers (if any so far?) care about "alternates"
257. # [22:56] <@tantek> I prefer keeping things simpler for the common use-cases and consumers
258. # [22:56] <@tantek> barnabywalters - there are no clients currently that look for alternates
259. # [22:56] <@tantek> so you're optimizing for a 0 case
260. # [22:56] <barnabywalters> tantek: how does always having an alternates key complicate things?
261. # [22:56] <barnabywalters> I’m optimising for consistency
262. # [22:56] <@tantek> it makes the result messier by default
263. # [22:56] <@tantek> the usual thing you'll see there is just a bunch of style sheets
264. # [22:57] <barnabywalters> ? stylesheets shouldn’t be in alternates
265. # [22:57] <@tantek> which are not useful to anyone
266. # [22:57] <@tantek> oh sorry - alternate stylesheets - yeah - that's not that common
267. # [22:57] <tommorris> why would a stylesheet be rel="alternate"?
268. # [22:57] <barnabywalters> ;)
269. # [22:57] <@tantek> tommorris - it's in HTML4
270. # [22:57] <@tantek> google "alternate stylesheets"
271. # [22:58] <tommorris> wow. I didn't know about that.
272. # [22:58] <tommorris> are any browsers supporting it *now*?
273. # [22:58] <tommorris> the w3.org post was written 2001-017.
274. # [22:58] <barnabywalters> hm, interesting
275. # [22:59] <@tantek> tommorris - I implemented a bookmarklet/favelet implementation of "alternate stylesheet" in the early 2000s
276. # [22:59] <@tantek> anyway
277. # [22:59] <@tantek> what use is an empty "alternates" key?
278. # [22:59] * tommorris goes and reads what HTML5 has done with it
279. # [22:59] <@tantek> it looks like noise
280. # [23:00] <@tantek> and it begs the question of what if anything should go into it
281. # [23:00] <@tantek> which will do nothing but waste developers' time
282. # [23:00] <@tantek> having it not be there in the first place in the very common cases is the cleaner (less noise) solution
283. # [23:00] <@tantek> we have indieweb use-cases for items, and for rels, that's why they're there by default
284. # [23:01] <@tantek> we DO NOT have indieweb use-cases for alternates, which is why it should be empty by default
285. # [23:01] <@tantek> no use-cases, no key by default
286. # [23:02] <tommorris> seems reasonable
287. # [23:02] <barnabywalters> ATOM feed discovery for BC if people aren’t marking up content with h-entry
288. # [23:02] <barnabywalters> means you can parse a page once, if no h-entry found then look in alternates for a dry-violating feed
289. # [23:02] <tommorris> the Ruby library code I wrote today only shows alternates if not empty
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291. # [23:04] <tommorris> Ah, §4.12.5.11 of HTML5 sez: "If the alternate keyword is also specified on the link element, then the link is an alternative stylesheet; in this case, the title attribute must be specified on the link element, with a non-empty value."
292. # [23:04] <@tantek> no indieweb site cares about ATOM feed discovery
293. # [23:04] <@tantek> and feed-only readers are dying
294. # [23:05] <@tantek> so they're effectively a negative use-case
295. # [23:05] <barnabywalters> fair enough
296. # [23:05] <@tantek> if you undo the edits, I'll write up the design reasoning
297. # [23:05] <@tantek> I have a feeling this may come up again
298. # [23:05] <@tantek> and it will be helpful to indicate exactly why we made this decision
299. # [23:06] <barnabywalters> personally I find inconsistencies like this really confusing when consuming this sort of data, but I’ll admit I haven’t come up against it in this particular instance
300. # [23:07] <Loqi> [[html-stripping-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=html-stripping-examples&diff=63707&oldid=63702&rcid=99932 * TomMorris * (+1428) adding django-bleach
301. # [23:07] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=63708&oldid=63706&rcid=99933 * Barnabywalters * (+0) Undo revision 63705 by [[Special:Contributions/Tantek|Tantek]] ([[User talk:Tantek|Talk]])
302. # [23:07] <@tantek> barnabywalters - but you're not consuming alternates, so you won't see any inconsistency
303. # [23:07] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=63709&oldid=63708&rcid=99934 * Barnabywalters * (-38) Undo revision 63704 by [[Special:Contributions/Barnabywalters|Barnabywalters]] ([[User talk:Barnabywalters|Talk]])
304. # [23:21] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=63710&oldid=63709&rcid=99935 * Tantek * (+83) create top level "alternates" area when needed
305. # [23:22] <barnabywalters> okay, http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/ now running latest version which doesn’t include alternates key if not necessary
306. # [23:25] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@host-89-241-115-40.as13285.net) (Quit: Back to real life!)
307. # Session Close: Mon Sep 16 00:00:00 2013

The end :)