/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2013-11-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Nov 28 00:00:00 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  10. # [02:28] <odra> Hello
  11. # [02:30] <odra> Who do I have to talk to to get <a rel="alternate stylesheet"> as a way to switch preferred stylesheets in HTML?
  12. # [02:34] <@tantek> well those are valid rel values in HTML currently
  13. # [02:35] <@tantek> what do you want <a rel="alternate stylesheet"> to actually do? It won't display a hyperlink because there's no href
  14. # [02:35] <@tantek> and btw, welcome odra! :)
  15. # [02:38] <odra> tantek: Thanks. :D
  16. # [02:39] <odra> tantek: Well, I'd like that <a rel="alternate stylesheet" href="other.css" title="Other Style"> was a way to markup an alternate stylesheet that would preferably get switched on when the link is activated instead of browsers navigating to it.
  17. # [02:41] <odra> tantek: As it stands, alternate stylesheets are difficult to use since most browsers don't have support in their GUI to switch them, and to switch them from a page you would need javascript. I'd like to make anchors marked up as alternate stylesheets to become the standard way of working with them.
  18. # [02:42] <@tantek> odra indeed - I wrote a bookmarklet/favelet >10 years ago to add that functionality to IE5/Mac :)
  19. # [02:42] <@tantek> (alternate stylesheets chooser)
  20. # [02:42] <@tantek> see: http://favelets.com/
  21. # [02:43] <odra> tantek: Can you tell me how can I make it a proposal? To whoever might make it happen?
  22. # [03:08] <@tantek> well there's already the suggestion that browser provide a UI for <link rel="alternate stylesheet"> elements but that doesn't seem to have gotten much uptake
  23. # [03:08] <@tantek> one way to get browser to consider implementing it is to file a bug
  24. # [03:08] <@tantek> (for each browser that you want to see the feature)
  25. # [03:10] <@tantek> hmm … looks like that UI feature was in HTML4 but dropped from HTML5
  26. # [03:11] <@tantek> and delegated to CSSOM
  27. # [03:11] <@tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#the-link-is-an-alternative-stylesheet
  28. # [03:12] <@tantek> so that means it's probably wide open to request an implementation in browsers
  29. # [03:15] <@tantek> e.g. here's a bug requesting it in Mozilla / Firefox: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51848 - you could add a comment there in support of it
  30. # [03:16] <@tantek> oh - odra - have you tried using Firefox and the View > Page Style menu?
  31. # [03:17] <@tantek> e.g. go here in Firefox: http://www.w3.org/Style/Examples/007/alternatives.en.html
  32. # [03:18] <@tantek> and then choose the View menu, Page Style > … and pick something from that hierarchical menu
  33. # [03:19] <odra> tantek: Yes, but most of the talk on alternate stylesheets are about the <link> element.
  34. # [03:22] <odra> tantek: I want to propose using alternate stylesheets with the <a> element which would allow browsers to use the anchor metadata to switch stylesheets.
  35. # [03:22] <@tantek> but what would that add over using the <link> element with "title" attribute?
  36. # [03:22] <@tantek> what's the advantage?
  37. # [03:24] <odra> tantek: It would allow developers to display the link to the alternate stylesheets in the page contents.
  38. # [03:24] <@tantek> odra - developers can already do that with javascript
  39. # [03:25] <@tantek> e.g. using a stylesheet switcher with the DOM/CSSOM
  40. # [03:25] <@tantek> so the challenge there is to show that there is enough interest in doing so via a JS library that it would be worth the time and effort to add it to the browser itself.
  41. # [03:26] <@tantek> if not many sites care to put in a little JS for this functionality (e.g. the burden of documenting that is that of the proposer), then it's not worth adding it to a browser
  42. # [03:26] <odra> tantek: You could see it in reverse.
  43. # [03:26] <@tantek> nope - new feature is work, therefore it has the burden of proof/evidence
  44. # [03:26] <odra> tantek: That many sites don't add alternate stylesheets because of the burden in doing so.
  45. # [03:27] <odra> tantek: Yes, but the thing is alternate stylesheets are already a thing.
  46. # [03:27] <@tantek> odra - just adding alternate stylesheets is easy
  47. # [03:27] <@tantek> and you get a UI in the browser *right now*
  48. # [03:27] <@tantek> see aforementioned View > Page Styles >
  49. # [03:27] <odra> tantek: You get a UI in one browser.
  50. # [03:27] <@tantek> so file bugs against other browser to at least provide that
  51. # [03:27] <odra> tantek: That doesn't even appear if you hide the menu bar.
  52. # [03:28] <@tantek> if you can't convince other browsers to add support for *existing* alternate style sheets, you're unlikely to make progress asking for a *new* feature
  53. # [03:29] <odra> tantek: It bothers me that there is already mark up and a micro format for it but browsers still can't infer it what they should do.
  54. # [03:50] <@tantek> odra - browsers can infer - the simplest path is to just implement a UI like what Firefox does
  55. # [03:51] <@tantek> you may need to file explicit bugs against Safari, Chrome, and IE to do so. That would be the logical place to start: "Firefox supports standards HTML+CSS alternate stylesheets, so should you"
  56. # [03:52] <odra> tantek: That is in <link> not in <a>.
  57. # [03:52] <@tantek> that's likely your path of least resistance to making progress on this front. take those steps and see if you can make that work - feel free to paste URLs to the bugs you create so others can follow along
  58. # [03:52] <@tantek> odra - right that's the path of least resistance
  59. # [03:52] <@tantek> implement what's already defined and specified
  60. # [03:52] <@tantek> rather than attempting to propose a new feature
  61. # [03:53] <odra> tantek: That sounds ridiculously troublesome.
  62. # [03:54] <odra> tantek: This is just my opnion but it should be easier to maintain a feature that works with anchors maintained by web developers than to maintain a feature that works with the UI of the browser.
  63. # [03:55] <@tantek> odra - it's more troublesome to propose a new feature
  64. # [03:56] <@tantek> so if you think that sounds ridiculous, then you're asking for even more ridiculous
  65. # [03:56] <@tantek> it's actually less work to put it in the UI of the browser because there is no impact on layout / content
  66. # [03:56] <@tantek> (and thus compatibility)
  67. # [03:57] <@tantek> alternatively, you're also welcome to ignore my guidance and simply write a proposal in email and send it to www-style@w3.org
  68. # [03:58] <odra> tantek: Yes I'm trying to subscribe to it :)
  69. # [03:59] <@tantek> also - if you want to refer to this conversation: http://logbot.glob.com.au/?c=freenode%23microformats&s=today#c69947
  70. # [03:59] <odra> tantek: I know it sounds quite ridiculous because the browsers haven't yet implemented ANY way of changing the stylesheets, but I like to believe the ways avaiable are in fault.
  71. # [04:02] <odra> tantek: For example, even if a developer made an alternate style avaiable through <link>, the user would most likely be unaware of this.
  72. # [04:03] <@tantek> odra - already answered - if the developer wants to provide an explicit UI in the page - they can already do so via the DOM/CSSOM
  73. # [04:03] <@tantek> they're welcome to re-use my JS code from my alternate style sheet chooser at http://favelets.com/
  74. # [04:03] <odra> tantek: For the user to be aware the developer would have to mention the alternate stylesheet in the page, with javascript and DOM/CSSOM.
  75. # [04:04] <@tantek> and the developer can do that today if they care to do so
  76. # [04:05] <@tantek> and if even a dozen developers don't care to do so (challenge you to find a dozen that to), then why should the browsers care to do so themselves?
  77. # [04:05] <odra> tantek: But since the developer has to mention it in the page, <a> would be most fitting than <link> to refer to the stylesheet. Which is why I think making the rel="alternate stylesheet" work with <a> is not more ridiculous than making browsers implement the <link> noe
  78. # [04:05] <@tantek> odra - if you want to enable that use of <a>, then you yourself could develop a JS shim that implements it
  79. # [04:06] <@tantek> then all you have to do is convince developers that it's worth providing that UI on their site
  80. # [04:06] <odra> tantek: I was actually thinking of doing that :u
  81. # [04:07] <odra> tantek: I'll see to it this weekend. :)
  82. # [04:08] <@tantek> then in that case, you're welcome to re-use any of the JS from favelets.com :)
  83. # [04:08] <odra> tantek: thanks :D
  84. # [04:09] <@tantek> wow I wrote this over 12 years ago: http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/codeisfreespeech.html
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  107. # [14:51] <Loqi> [@kamtiyono] Convince your reader using Author hReview Pro, WordPress Plugin to Start your Review Website http://theblogcourse.com/author-hreview-wordpress-plugin/#comment-585 via @sharethis (http://twtr.io/fH_6N83cJw)
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  115. # [15:59] <Loqi> [@ayunuraisyah17] RT @kamtiyono: Convince your reader using Author hReview Pro, WordPress Plugin to Start your Review Website http://theblogcourse.com/author-hreview-wordpress-plugin/#comment-585 via @sha… (http://twtr.io/fHfBhVACuQ)
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The end :)