/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2014-02-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 12 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:53] <bret> tantek: did you see this question? http://logbot.glob.com.au/?c=freenode%23microformats&s=6+Feb+2014&e=11+Feb+2014&b=1#c70475
  4. # [00:54] <bret> looked possibly of interest
  5. # [00:55] <@tantek> !tell jalbertbowdenii microdata was end-of-lifed by W3C by publishing it as a "W3C Note". In practice microdata is just a Google SEO thing, which you can use microformats for instead (less work and less code). microformats specs are on the microformats wiki - that's correct.
  6. # [00:55] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
  7. # [00:56] <@tantek> thanks bret - sometimes the questions can be a bit odd.
  8. # [00:58] <bret> also, did you hear about browsers removing microdata stuff?
  9. # [00:58] <bret> a few weeks ago
  10. # [00:58] <hober> of course, microdata *wasn't* dropped in the whatwg spec.
  11. # [01:16] <@tantek> hober - as we both know, the whatwg spec has plenty of experimental / hopeful things too.
  12. # [01:16] <@tantek> bret - not a surprise about browsers removing microdata stuff - it's unnecessary for any real world web use cases.
  13. # [01:16] <@tantek> it was made up to satisfy hypothetical use-cases from RDF(a) folks
  14. # [01:17] <@tantek> it did however provide additional data points about desire for general models of HTML annotation
  15. # [01:17] <@tantek> and a canonical JSON representation of HTML annotations
  16. # [01:17] <@tantek> which we've re-used in microformats2
  17. # [01:17] <@tantek> so to that extent, microdata provided some good R&D
  18. # [01:28] <Hixie> tantek: microdata is hardly "hopeful" at this point... (and it's hardly "just a Google SEO thing", there's many search engines that use it)
  19. # [01:28] <Hixie> also, it wasn't made to satisfy RDFa use cases, it was made to satisfy a whole range of use cases, few of which came from RDF people since I couldn't get them to tell me any use cases.
  20. # [01:29] <@tantek> Hixie, it's a "Google SEO thing" because that's the motivation behind developers paying any attention at all to it. It's irrelevant to them that other search engines do anything with it.
  21. # [01:29] <Hixie> well, much of HTML is "a Google SEO thing" then :-P
  22. # [01:29] <@tantek> and also obvious from the articles written about microdata predominantly by SEO spammers/scammers.
  23. # [01:29] <@tantek> nah, HTML is mostly a "make it look good in the browser" thing
  24. # [01:30] <@tantek> that "whole range of use cases [including] … from RDF people" is also far more than is ever practically needed
  25. # [01:30] <Hixie> practically needed by whom?
  26. # [01:30] <Hixie> i mean, i have zero use for microdata personally
  27. # [01:31] <Hixie> (or microformats, for that matter)
  28. # [01:31] <@tantek> by people who actually ship things on the open web
  29. # [01:31] <@tantek> Hixie, yeah, you stopped shipping on the open web (hixie.ch) and now just post on G+
  30. # [01:31] <Hixie> G+ isn't on the web? :-)
  31. # [01:31] <@tantek> so that doesn't surprise me
  32. # [01:32] <Hixie> (you realise i spend literally every day writing a web page on the open web, right?)
  33. # [01:32] <@tantek> no G+ is not "on the web" - it's a web app that builds stuff out of JSON
  34. # [01:32] <@tantek> never seen G+ posts show up as search results on any other search engine
  35. # [01:32] <@tantek> you can't curl G+ posts - ergo they're not on the web
  36. # [01:32] <Hixie> o_O
  37. # [01:32] <Hixie> [Ian Hickson DRM] on bing.com brings up my G+ post
  38. # [01:32] <Hixie> as the first hit
  39. # [01:33] <@tantek> well look at that - thanks - first I've seen :)
  40. # [01:33] <Hixie> uh huh
  41. # [01:34] <@tantek> why not at least mirror your G+ posts to hixie.ch?
  42. # [01:34] <@tantek> PESOS style
  43. # [01:35] <Hixie> what's the advantage, other than fragmenting my audience?
  44. # [01:35] <@tantek> URLs that have a better chance of working on 5+ years
  45. # [01:35] <Hixie> (btw, 90% of my g+ posts are ACL'ed, which hixie.ch doesn't support, and which is the main reason i use G+)
  46. # [01:35] <@tantek> Buzz URLs are already busted
  47. # [01:36] <@tantek> yes. ACL posts are a challenge for the #indiewebcamp crowd, though we've got a few folks who have gotten it working.
  48. # [01:36] <Hixie> (btw, curl does seem to work on G+ URLs, though the resulting files don't seem to render their contents due to JS errors since they're now running on the wrong domain. but hte content is indeed there.)
  49. # [01:36] <Hixie> (so it's not just JSON, dunno where you got that from.)
  50. # [01:37] <@tantek> right - they shouldn't be dependent on JS to "render their contents"
  51. # [01:37] <@tantek> that's the problem
  52. # [01:38] <Hixie> it works fine if you disabled JS
  53. # [01:38] <@tantek> also, G+ pages are slow as crap, why I don't bother to even read it anymore
  54. # [01:38] <Hixie> e.g. go to http://damowmow.com/temp/drm-g+-post with JS disabled and the post renders fine (that's the curl'ed file)
  55. # [01:38] <@tantek> it's like a 10-100x slower version of FB with more space wasteful design
  56. # [01:38] * Hixie pats tantek on the head
  57. # [01:39] <Hixie> i'm happy to give you that it's slow, since that doesn't seem to argue that it's not on the open web.
  58. # [01:39] <@tantek> anyway, I understand why you use it for authoring and ACL purposes. Just saying you should mirror at least your public posts to your own domain.
  59. # [01:39] <@tantek> yeah - the bing result is good start.
  60. # [01:40] <Hixie> i see no advantage to splitting the audience like that.
  61. # [01:40] <Hixie> but my original point still stands, now that we've established i do post on the web, which is that i still don't need microdata or microformats :-)
  62. # [01:40] <Hixie> but that doesn't mean others don't need them
  63. # [01:40] <Hixie> microdata is used quite a lot
  64. # [01:41] <@tantek> sure, see above about SEO spammers
  65. # [01:41] <@tantek> very popular in that crowd who will do anything they perceive will game google
  66. # [01:41] <@tantek> whereas (nearly) everyone else would rather do the least amount of work possible
  67. # [01:41] <@tantek> which for search / rich snippets is microformats, and for site-to-site use cases (e.g. indieweb), is microformats2
  68. # [01:42] <@tantek> both for publishing and consuming - less code, less work
  69. # [01:42] <@tantek> maybe you don't have use for them directly, but certainly the specs you write use class names (your own set) which then you post process into spec HTML
  70. # [01:43] <Hixie> microdata isn't useful for SEO spammers, dunno where you're getting this from.
  71. # [01:43] <Hixie> what class names do i post-process?
  72. # [01:43] <@tantek> Hixie - try a search for microdata SEO and see all the SEO spammer articles about it ;)
  73. # [01:44] <Hixie> there's twice as many google hits for [microformats SEO] as [microdata SEO], so this may not be proving the point you want
  74. # [01:44] <@tantek> number of hits don't prove anything - look at the individual articles, how recent they are, number of different sources, who the sources actually are etc.
  75. # [01:45] <@tantek> and yes, before microdata, the SEO crowd had started to advocate microformats as well
  76. # [01:45] <Hixie> "i'm going to insult microdata but not do any of the work to actually show this insult is valid" is FUD, dude.
  77. # [01:46] <Hixie> there's two pages of results for [microformats seo] in the past hour, only six posts for [microdata seo] in the past hour.
  78. # [01:46] <@tantek> not at all - just saying citing number of results is irrelevant (such numbers have been shown to be unreliable anyway)
  79. # [01:46] <@tantek> and instead providing methodology to do so qualititatively
  80. # [01:47] <Hixie> yes. i have performed your research and found it does not support your point.
  81. # [01:47] <@tantek> since when does google actually provide time ordered results of any quality? blog search is dead.
  82. # [01:47] <Hixie> since many moons? it's under "search tools" on the home page
  83. # [01:47] <@tantek> for anything time ordered, Twitter search (a silo search, sadly) does a better job
  84. # [01:47] <Hixie> (i don't have a horse in this race, just so we're clear. i don't care about either of those. i'm just saying what you're saying is bogus.)
  85. # [01:49] <Hixie> twitter: microdata seo, most recent post, 8 hours. microformats seo, most recent post, 12 minutes.
  86. # [01:49] <Hixie> not sure how else to get useful data out of that.
  87. # [01:49] <@tantek> wow - so those results are quite different than what I was seeing perhaps 6-12 months ago last time I checked
  88. # [01:49] <@tantek> now checking google results for "past hour"
  89. # [01:49] <Hixie> gotta go, bbl
  90. # [01:49] <@tantek> nearly all the microdata mentions are keyword stuffing - not actual mentions
  91. # [01:50] <@tantek> first six google results for microformats SEO in the past hour are the same thing - duplicates
  92. # [01:50] <@tantek> similarly with the last four results on the first page "Stat My Web"
  93. # [01:51] <@tantek> and the 2 results on the second page also
  94. # [01:52] <@tantek> so yeah, none of the results for "microformats SEO" in the past hour from Google have anything to actually do with microformats
  95. # [01:55] <@tantek> and the only result about "microdata SEO" from the google in the past hour is itself a search result for training videos
  96. # [01:56] <@tantek> Hixie, so your analysis/assertion of "two pages of results for [microformats seo] in the past hour, only six posts for [microdata seo] in the past hour" when actually analyzed, i.e. each result, is shown to demonstrate nothing.
  97. # [01:56] <@tantek> this is what I mean by you have to actually look at the results, who they are from etc.
  98. # [01:57] <@tantek> citing search result numbers is (nearly) useless - you should know better than that.
  99. # [02:00] <@tantek> Hixie, if you "don't have a horse in this race", then why not drop microdata from the HTML spec? Since it's clearly not "essential" for HTML.
  100. # [02:11] <Hixie> it's used on millions of pages
  101. # [02:11] <Hixie> it'd be pretty dumb to drop something that's actually widely used and not harmful.
  102. # [02:12] <Hixie> (just because i've no interest in structured data doesn't mean HTML doesn't need a mechanism for it)
  103. # [02:12] <Hixie> (i mean, the use cases for which microdata was made are real, and nothing else is addressing them)
  104. # [02:13] <@tantek> microformats and microformats2 address the real world use cases just fine
  105. # [02:13] <@tantek> nah, you used various non-real RDF use-cases for microdata just because they were the squeaky emailers
  106. # [02:13] <@tantek> thus making it more complicated than it needed to be in practice
  107. # [02:14] <@tantek> RSS and XHTML were also used on millions of pages, and they've been effectively dropped too
  108. # [02:14] <@tantek> as is meta keywords
  109. # [02:15] <Hixie> what RDF use cases? the RDF people literally gave me no use cases after months and months of me asking them for use cases.
  110. # [02:15] <@tantek> BTW how are your stats on non-schema-org uses of microdata?
  111. # [02:15] <Hixie> all the use cases for microdata had nothing to do with RDF, as far as I recall
  112. # [02:15] <Hixie> and microformats doesn't handle those use cases either, they were mostly about people making up proprietary vocabs for private use
  113. # [02:16] <@tantek> oh all those emails they sent, with "use-cases" in an attempt to justify merging RDFa into the HTML spec
  114. # [02:16] <@tantek> microdata was essentially a foil to keep RDFa out of the HTML spec (which is fine)
  115. # [02:16] <Hixie> it really wasn't
  116. # [02:16] <@tantek> it's just that it's clear that's not necessary any more
  117. # [02:16] <Hixie> i don't think any e-mails regarding use cases that led to microdata came from RDF people
  118. # [02:16] <Hixie> i don't need a foil to keep RDF out of HTML
  119. # [02:16] <Hixie> i can just not put RDF in
  120. # [02:17] <Hixie> :-)
  121. # [02:17] <@tantek> this was back when you cared about W3C HTML :)
  122. # [02:17] <@tantek> I realize it's no longer true
  123. # [02:17] <Hixie> no, microdata predates that
  124. # [02:17] <@tantek> and besides even RDFa people don't really care much about it any more, they've moved onto JSON-LD ;)
  125. # [02:17] <Hixie> (XHTML is a good example, btw. I wouldn't remove XHTML from the spec either.)
  126. # [02:17] <Hixie> (and XHTML is used far less than microdata.)
  127. # [02:18] <@tantek> XHTML doctype? or application/xhtml+xml?
  128. # [02:18] <@tantek> I'd say doctype used more, mimetype less
  129. # [02:18] <Hixie> yeah, that's amazing to me. JSON-LD is the kind of thing i was telling them todo for years, and they kept saying i was wrong, and then finally... -_-
  130. # [02:18] <Hixie> XHTML doesn't have a doctype. it's just XML.
  131. # [02:18] <Hixie> i mean the HTML namespace, really.
  132. # [02:18] <@tantek> sorry, I should say, XHTML 1.0 ;)
  133. # [02:19] <Hixie> XHTML 1.0 is obsolete.
  134. # [02:19] <@tantek> right, but used on millions of pages
  135. # [02:19] <Hixie> for some definition of "used" that i don't agree with :-)
  136. # [02:19] <@tantek> heh
  137. # [02:19] <Hixie> HTML = stuff sent as text/html, XHTML = stuff sent as XML with an HTML namespace
  138. # [02:20] <Hixie> i'm saying i can't remove that XHTML from the spec
  139. # [02:20] <Hixie> XHTML 1.0 sent as text/html = HTML, and isn't even mentioned in the HTML spec as far as i recall
  140. # [02:20] <Hixie> it's just handled by the default error handling logic.
  141. # [02:21] <@tantek> sure you can define "XHTML" that way
  142. # [02:22] <@tantek> XHTML 1.0 had a spec that defined it, which also allowed for text/html.
  143. # [02:22] <@tantek> what's the use of xmlns? I couldn't find any in practice.
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  146. # [03:11] <Hixie> tantek: like, how much is it used? it's pretty minimal.
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  153. # [07:46] <@tantek> whoa - 10 year anniversary of when KevinMarks and I introduced microformats at Etech
  154. # [08:23] <Loqi> [[Template:DraftSpecification]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Template:DraftSpecification&diff=64200&oldid=63930&rcid=100451 * Tantek * (+5) using IRC instead of email list
  155. # [08:24] <Loqi> [[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hreview&diff=64201&oldid=52526&rcid=100452 * Tantek * (+20) latest h-review
  156. # [08:28] <Loqi> [@hepatuwu] SchoolEmpathy, Inc. Save North Carolina hCard® Members Hundreds Time They Advanta: .eLu (http://twtr.io/i0yBK0b2cs)
  157. # [08:28] <@tantek> !spammer hepatuwu
  158. # [08:28] <Loqi> Got it! There are now 169 spammers blacklisted
  159. # [08:34] <Loqi> [@t] mentioned, since learned/made * IRC+wiki works * syndication: hentry * recommendation: hreview * markup for time: http://tantek.com/2014/042/t3/learned-made-irc-wiki-works-hentry-hreview (http://twtr.io/i0yjgZXRWf)
  160. # [08:48] <Loqi> [@iBrandan_] Never seen such a pussy nigga. Hadda pull a #Hcard (http://twtr.io/i101AMi7XC)
  161. # [08:49] <Loqi> [@matro] RT @t: mentioned, since learned/made * IRC+wiki works * syndication: hentry * recommendation: hreview * markup for time: http://t.co/3DUzme… (http://twtr.io/i105HFSY6Q)
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  177. # [13:26] <Loqi> [@SaudKarrysta] Karrysta: Membuat info hcard dibawah judul postingan http://karristaent.blogspot.com/2014/02/membuat-info-hcard-dibawah-judul.html?spref=tw (http://twtr.io/i1QwQ1ceZL)
  178. # [13:27] <Loqi> [@SaudKarrysta] Posted by : Saud Karrysta Posted on - Wednesday, February 12, 2014 with 26 comments Salam buat sobat blogging... http://karristaent.blogspot.com/2014/02/membuat-info-hcard-dibawah-judul.html?spref=fb (http://twtr.io/i1QrKTd4ij)
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  200. # [17:54] <Loqi> [[recipe-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=recipe-examples&diff=64202&oldid=49603&rcid=100453 * John5 * (+0) fixed broken link
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  217. # [21:47] * Joins: caseorg__ (~caseorgan@198.102.43.49)
  218. # [21:48] * Quits: caseorganic (~caseorgan@198.102.43.49) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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  223. # [22:12] * Joins: neuro` (~neuro@dagobah.fv.gs)
  224. # [22:12] <neuro`> Happy microbirthday
  225. # [22:25] <@tantek> thanks neuro`!
  226. # [22:25] <neuro`> You're welcome.
  227. # [22:56] * Quits: caseorganic (~caseorgan@173-8-196-70-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  228. # [23:02] * Joins: caseorganic (~caseorgan@198.102.43.49)
  229. # [23:06] * Quits: @tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-254.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Quit: tantek)
  230. # [23:12] * Quits: eschnou (~eschnou@128.230-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  231. # [23:26] * Quits: elux (~peter@96.45.198.150) (Quit: Bye!)
  232. # Session Close: Thu Feb 13 00:00:00 2014

The end :)