/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2014-07-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 23 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:11] <@tantek> barnabywalters I found a page with hProduct but phpmf2 doesn't seem to find it: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://www.staples.com/Swingline-747-Rio-Red-Stapler-20-Sheet-Capacity/product_562485
  4. # [00:11] <tommorris> tantek: https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/commit/ee309a68960e9e0d64e68f60dd3ba11249d65e40
  5. # [00:12] <@tantek> tommorris is there a pin13 like service that runs mf2py and shows results?
  6. # [00:12] <@tantek> or perhaps you can run it locally and let me know what you see from http://www.staples.com/Swingline-747-Rio-Red-Stapler-20-Sheet-Capacity/product_562485
  7. # [00:16] <tommorris> tantek: https://gist.github.com/tommorris/5d9111af10b606c3f3bd
  8. # [00:17] <@tantek> tommorris - nicely done!
  9. # [00:17] <@tantek> now to add this example to the wiki
  10. # [00:18] <tommorris> Once I've got a few other things that need adding to mf2py, I'll push out another release.
  11. # [00:18] <@tantek> !tell barnabywalters I found a page with hProduct but phpmf2 doesn't seem to find it: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://www.staples.com/Swingline-747-Rio-Red-Stapler-20-Sheet-Capacity/product_562485 - however mf2py picked it up: https://gist.github.com/tommorris/5d9111af10b606c3f3bd (via tommorris)
  12. # [00:18] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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  15. # [00:29] <Loqi> [[hproduct-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hproduct-examples-in-wild&diff=64432&oldid=51134&rcid=100790 * Tantek * (+358) Staples.com supports hProduct, e.g. red stapler, start adding product categories
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  43. # [08:15] <Loqi> [@sbmaxx] Какая херня этот hcard (http://twtr.io/ooDLnvMkPC)
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  56. # [11:13] <Loqi> barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 10 hours, 55 minutes ago: I found a page with hProduct but phpmf2 doesn't seem to find it: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://www.staples.com/Swingline-747-Rio-Red-Stapler-20-Sheet-Capacity/product_562485 - however mf2py picked it up: https://gist.github.com/tommorris/5d9111af10b606c3f3bd (via tommorris)
  57. # [11:16] <barnabywalters> good grief, that’s disgusting
  58. # [11:16] <tommorris> barnabywalters: eh, just Unicode encoding nonsense. :)
  59. # [11:16] <barnabywalters> not that, the XML inside HTML with duplicate elements for microformats and whatever the XML vocabulary is
  60. # [11:17] <barnabywalters> all of which is invisible data
  61. # [11:19] <tommorris> the v:url stuff is schema.org
  62. # [11:19] <tommorris> in RDFa
  63. # [11:19] <tommorris> xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/#"
  64. # [11:19] <tommorris> rel="v:url" property="v:title"
  65. # [11:20] <tommorris> typeof="v:Breadcrumb"
  66. # [11:20] <barnabywalters> no, I’m talking about the bit of markup which actually contains hproduct: https://gist.github.com/barnabywalters/66bc200190c4ae52844e
  67. # [11:21] <tommorris> wt
  68. # [11:21] <tommorris> wat
  69. # [11:21] <barnabywalters> exactly
  70. # [11:21] <tommorris> also, schema.org is confusing - rdf.data-vocabulary.org lists Breadcrumb as a valid type. but schema.org doesn't.
  71. # [11:22] <tommorris> inconsistent documentation - from a major tech company? Say it ain't so.
  72. # [11:22] * barnabywalters aggressively ignores schema.org
  73. # [11:22] <tommorris> I'm not sure what a Breadcrumb type is supposed to be for and why that kind of thing can't be inferred from something like <nav>
  74. # [11:23] <KartikPrabhu> schema is a good example in overengineering
  75. # [11:23] <KartikPrabhu> i actively deleted old schema markup from my site when I upgraded to mf2
  76. # [11:25] <tommorris> I have RDFa on my site mostly to prove a point. I'm rather proud of this...
  77. # [11:25] <tommorris> <footer class="vcard h-card" typeof="schema:Person foaf:Person geo:SpatialThing gnd:Person yago:LivingPeople yago:SoftwareDeveloper yago:LGBTPeopleFromEngland yago:Adult109605289 yago:AlumniOfTheUniversityOfLondon yago:PeopleFromSurrey" about="http://tommorris.org/" id="me">
  78. # [11:25] <barnabywalters> horrible markup aside, it’s my fault the backcompat isn’t parsing as I somehow forgot to add hproduct backcompat. fixing now
  79. # [11:25] <barnabywalters> tommorris: uh, aren’t some of those mixing properties and types a little?
  80. # [11:26] <barnabywalters> or is this hypothetical? :)
  81. # [11:26] <tommorris> barnabywalters: https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/commit/ee309a68960e9e0d64e68f60dd3ba11249d65e40 ;)
  82. # [11:26] <tommorris> barnabywalters: and, yes, there's a bit of a mixup there. but I found existing types that are already used and reused them.
  83. # [11:27] <barnabywalters> e.g. type: yago:SoftwareDeveloper, job-title: Head of Forestry
  84. # [11:27] <tommorris> a property is just a more flexible expression of a type. ;)
  85. # [11:27] <barnabywalters> obviously such contradictions are possible with saner types, but less likely
  86. # [11:27] <barnabywalters> I suppose that’s true
  87. # [11:28] <tommorris> Well, without some kind of validation layer, there's nothing to stop you expression logical contradictions - RDFa, microdata, microformats
  88. # [11:29] <tommorris> <a rel="me parent child" href="...">
  89. # [11:29] <tommorris> (to be fair, there are theological uses for such markup...)
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  94. # [11:39] <barnabywalters> !tell tantek thanks for the heads-up about hproduct, for some reason the backcompat mappings were missing. Pushed to master, will add to the next tagged release
  95. # [11:39] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
  96. # [11:39] <barnabywalters> tommorris: thanks for the ready-built class mapping :) what’s the rationale behind adding e-description to the classes for review?
  97. # [11:40] <tommorris> I don't know, tbh. ;)
  98. # [11:40] <barnabywalters> I removed it for maximum spec-compatibility
  99. # [11:40] <barnabywalters> assuming that if you had a solid reason with real-world examples it would be documented on the wiki
  100. # [11:44] <tommorris> I may have misread the spec at that point.
  101. # [11:45] <ChiefRA> barnabywalters your parser highlights the errors too ?
  102. # [11:46] <ChiefRA> I'm interested in parsing a mf1 hlisting and to spot the implementation errors
  103. # [11:46] <barnabywalters> ChiefRA: what do you mean?
  104. # [11:46] <barnabywalters> php-mf2 doesn’t do any particular error reporting
  105. # [11:46] <barnabywalters> as it’s quite difficult to figure out what an “error” is
  106. # [11:46] <ChiefRA> :-? but it should be no?
  107. # [11:47] <barnabywalters> it sounds like the sort of errors your talking about are the job of a validator, not a parser, to detect
  108. # [11:47] <ChiefRA> in deed, validator :)
  109. # [11:47] <ChiefRA> do you know any?
  110. # [11:47] <barnabywalters> e.g. indiewebify.me/validate-h-entry/ for h-entry
  111. # [11:47] <barnabywalters> not for h-listing, unless google’s rich snippet testing tool handles them
  112. # [11:48] <barnabywalters> I don’t even know what hlisting is tbh :)
  113. # [11:48] <ChiefRA> yeah, the problem with Google is that it doesn't say anything about it, after parsing.
  114. # [11:48] <ChiefRA> It would be tremendously useful such a validator.
  115. # [11:48] <ChiefRA> it's for real estate
  116. # [11:48] <ChiefRA> listing all the properties one after another, like hproduct
  117. # [11:48] <ChiefRA> but specifically designer for real estate.
  118. # [11:49] <barnabywalters> apparently it wasn’t widely enough used to make the transition to microformats2 (yet, at least)
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  121. # [11:49] <ChiefRA> well, that's in part Schema's fault.
  122. # [11:49] <barnabywalters> it sound like there’s a lot of overlap with h-product
  123. # [11:50] <ChiefRA> yes, to some point, but being specifically designed for Real Estate, it should help.
  124. # [11:50] <ChiefRA> the thing is, I need a validator :) do we have a validator for h-product at least?
  125. # [11:51] <ChiefRA> I can use it like that by replacing the main name.
  126. # [11:51] <barnabywalters> nope — building useful validators is a lot of work and I personally only have time and expertise to maintain them for the most commonly used vocabularies
  127. # [11:52] <barnabywalters> as can be seen by the number of issues on indiewebify.me :) https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/issues
  128. # [11:52] <ChiefRA> ok, so do we have ANY kind of mf2 validator?
  129. # [11:53] <ChiefRA> do you*
  130. # [11:53] <barnabywalters> but feel free to adapt any code from indiewebify.me which is useful into a h-product/hlisting validator
  131. # [11:53] <tommorris> there's not really any validator yet?
  132. # [11:53] <barnabywalters> “mf2” validator — validators generally are per-vocabulary
  133. # [11:53] <barnabywalters> so indiewebify.me has validators for h-entry and h-card
  134. # [11:53] <ChiefRA> ok, it seems like we need to add the h-product as well.
  135. # [11:53] <tommorris> I mean, we could have something that says "oh, you've put in a u-name rather than a p-name" but pretty much all properties are optional
  136. # [11:54] <barnabywalters> http://shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk/test/ isn’t exactly a validtor yet but a testing tool for h-feed
  137. # [11:54] <tommorris> all you can really do is chuck markup at a parser and see whether it parses right.
  138. # [11:54] <barnabywalters> tommorris: indiewebify.me doesn’t even do that (u- vs p-) level of validation yet as it just looks at the parsed output
  139. # [11:55] <ChiefRA> Yeah, I would love to have a validator which can point you in the right direction, like: hey, your u-photo is outside of the corresponding DIV or smth like this.
  140. # [11:55] <barnabywalters> “see whether it parses right” — is very easy for humans but a lot more difficult for computers :)
  141. # [11:55] <tommorris> so, the problem of validation is you've got two parts to it - does it syntactically make sense and does it make logical sense?
  142. # [11:56] <tommorris> microformats is very light on the latter, somewhat intentionally
  143. # [11:56] <ChiefRA> barnabywalters yes, totally agree :) that's why we have to do it if possible :)
  144. # [11:56] <ChiefRA> to keep up with the Schema spreading...
  145. # [11:56] <tommorris> and syntax isn't really a microformats concern - that's a concern for the HTML parser.
  146. # [11:56] <tommorris> is there a schema.org validator?
  147. # [11:56] <ChiefRA> Google's own tool
  148. # [11:57] <barnabywalters> a logical validator for each of the hundreds of types? or more of a syntatic validator?
  149. # [11:57] <ChiefRA> http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets
  150. # [11:57] <ChiefRA> barnabywalters I would say a syntactic validator, to look for the classes and to tell you that you have missplaced the elements in-out of the divs etc.
  151. # [11:57] <tommorris> "Error: Missing required field "entry-title"."
  152. # [11:58] <ChiefRA> as ussually that's the problem.
  153. # [11:58] <tommorris> Oh, Google, so cute, you honestly think that entry-title is required.
  154. # [11:58] <barnabywalters> tommorris: lol
  155. # [11:59] <tommorris> I still enjoy the fact that a few years ago, everyone told me that my strange insistence that titles ought to be optional was completely mad. Now they all use Twitter.
  156. # [11:59] <ChiefRA> :)))))
  157. # [12:00] <ChiefRA> seems that title is still a ranking factor, although browsers desn't display it anymore since TABs are taking over
  158. # [12:00] <ChiefRA> tabbed browsing
  159. # [12:00] <tobyink> If somebody supplemented http://schema.rdfs.org/ with some useful disjunctions (you can't be a Dentist and an OceanLiner simultaneously) then any OWL processor fronted by an RDFa/Microdata parser could act as a very nice schema.org validator.
  160. # [12:01] <tommorris> tobyink: what relation does schema.rdfs.org have to rdf.data-vocabulary.org ?
  161. # [12:03] <tobyink> http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/rdf.xml is old. schema.org replaces it. schema.org's schemas are only published in HTML, so schema.rdfs.org is a third-party RDF-ification of them.
  162. # [12:03] <barnabywalters> tommorris: what if I told you… that tweets were all title
  163. # [12:03] <tobyink> http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/ChangeLog - no changes since 2009.
  164. # [12:03] <tommorris> barnabywalters: then you'd build a very odd-looking renderer indeed. ;)
  165. # [12:04] <tommorris> tobyink: only, I found 'Breadcrumb' in rdf.data-vocabulary.org/rdf.xml but not on schema.org
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  167. # [12:04] <ChiefRA> there is breadcrumb on schema.org
  168. # [12:04] <tobyink> rdf.d-v.org was Google's solo effort at creating an RDF vocab, before they threw their lot in with MS and Y!
  169. # [12:05] <tommorris> ChiefRA: ah, okay. thanks.
  170. # [12:06] <ChiefRA> and it has even a well defined implementation syntax :)
  171. # [12:07] <ChiefRA> Schema.org is winning ground in front of mf...
  172. # [12:07] <ChiefRA> the thing is, I still work with A LOT of HTML4* websites,
  173. # [12:07] <ChiefRA> so I can';t implement schema....
  174. # [12:09] <tommorris> Why do you care about HTML4? The version number is an illusion.
  175. # [12:10] <tommorris> There is no HTML4 or HTML5, there is just HTML.
  176. # [12:10] <barnabywalters> unless of course you actually care about validation
  177. # [12:10] <ChiefRA> well, indeed, but if I change it, I get A LOT of w3c errors.
  178. # [12:10] <ChiefRA> Oh, I do care about it :)
  179. # [12:10] <tommorris> Who cares about validation? ;-)
  180. # [12:10] <ChiefRA> me me , pick me!!
  181. # [12:10] <ChiefRA> :))
  182. # [12:10] <barnabywalters> ChiefRA: out of interest, why?
  183. # [12:10] <tommorris> Rephrased: why care about validation?
  184. # [12:10] <ChiefRA> it's an important step in keeping your code clean and "understandable" by browsers etc.
  185. # [12:11] <ChiefRA> Google does not take into account - is not a ranking factor - validation.
  186. # [12:11] <ChiefRA> but can get you down as a side effect, if Googlebot can't fully understand your HTML code.
  187. # [12:12] <tommorris> so, I'm just looking at the validator.nu results. they're silly.
  188. # [12:12] <ChiefRA> if there is harsh competition on certain niches, Googlebot will pick your competition instead of your site if it can better comprehend their HTML code.
  189. # [12:12] <barnabywalters> it can be useful for spotting syntax errors, but google has it’s own tools (as you posted earlier) for making sure it’s crawlers can understand your code
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  191. # [12:13] <ChiefRA> John Mueller said is not mandatory to validate your website, but it certanly helps if you do. :)
  192. # [12:13] <barnabywalters> so if google’s tools tell you they can understand the rich snippets, why care whether or not the markup is offically allowed in whatever fake version number of HTML you’re forced to publish?
  193. # [12:13] <tommorris> It's presuming I want to use RDFa Lite 1.1 rather than RDFa Full. It's whining about me using rel values that aren't listed on microformats.org.
  194. # [12:13] <tommorris> It's telling me that my <article> elements need to have <h1> elements even though there's no need.
  195. # [12:13] <ChiefRA> tommorris I do agree that they (Google) are not perfect.
  196. # [12:13] <ChiefRA> they do have a lot of room for improvements.
  197. # [12:13] <ChiefRA> but that depends on us, to place bug reports etc.
  198. # [12:14] <ChiefRA> they can't be everywhere anytime to spot all the bugs unless our community helps them with it.
  199. # [12:14] <tommorris> So, tommorris.org has 83 validation errors according to validator.nu. Most of them aren't errors.
  200. # [12:15] <ChiefRA> I always submit bug reports and alike when I find them, and not necessarely HTML related.
  201. # [12:16] <ChiefRA> I can give you the most recent example: because I submitted an Android bug related to how Android is displaying numbers when you save them in the phone book and how it's displaying them when you dial, now they fixed the bug and my contry, Romania, has the numbers sorted out the right way, as we are used to see them on all other devices.
  202. # [12:17] <ChiefRA> and that's worldwide implemented on all Adroid devices.
  203. # [12:17] <ChiefRA> so I do believe spotting the bugs and taking the time to report them helps.
  204. # [12:17] <barnabywalters> ChiefRA: cool, nice that you got to see the whole feedback loop!
  205. # [12:18] <ChiefRA> barnabywalters :) it took me 7 months, but I've lived to see the result on my Galaxy S5 :D
  206. # [12:19] <ChiefRA> that's why I proposed that if you can, you should implement other vocabularies into your validator barnabywalters :)
  207. # [12:19] <barnabywalters> interesting that validator.nu is funded my Mozilla: http://about.validator.nu/##I+would+like+to+thank
  208. # [12:20] <barnabywalters> ChiefRA: you’re right, I think there’s some value in a more generic syntax validator as well as vocab logical validators. I might try putting one together
  209. # [12:21] <ChiefRA> barnabywalters please by all means, please tell me about it when you do, as I will be testing it to report porblems :D
  210. # [12:21] <ChiefRA> Error: Almost standards mode doctype. Expected e.g. <!DOCTYPE html>.
  211. # [12:21] <ChiefRA> From line 1, column 1; to line 1, column 121
  212. # [12:21] <ChiefRA> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">↩<html
  213. # [12:22] <ChiefRA> =)) validator.nu has a LOONG way to go to be near perfect.
  214. # [12:22] <tommorris> ChiefRA: why? it's accurate. You don't need anything the old-school DOCTYPE
  215. # [12:22] <tommorris> it literally serves no purpose at all.
  216. # [12:23] <ChiefRA> I believe you, but if I change it to HTML5 doctype, I get a LOT of errors.
  217. # [12:23] <tommorris> So, fix the errors.
  218. # [12:23] <ChiefRA> which have to be fixed, and the coders are way too busy to do that.
  219. # [12:23] <tommorris> The browser doesn't care about the DOCTYPE string.
  220. # [12:23] <ChiefRA> and it's a whole platform.
  221. # [12:23] <ChiefRA> I can't fix it manually for each website.
  222. # [12:23] <ChiefRA> it has to go through a long process.
  223. # [12:24] <ChiefRA> so I skip it for now and try to patch things up, like using mf instead of schema etc.
  224. # [12:24] <ChiefRA> Don't get me wrong, i love mf.
  225. # [12:24] <ChiefRA> the only thing i cry about is that hlisting is not YET supported by Google.
  226. # [12:25] <ChiefRA> I mean it sees it, but that's about it. It doesn't treat it in any way in search resulta.
  227. # [12:25] <ChiefRA> results*
  228. # [12:25] <tommorris> You can use both microformats and Schema.org (either as microdata or as RDFa).
  229. # [12:26] <ChiefRA> I know. but that involves changing the DOCTYPE :)
  230. # [12:26] <ChiefRA> so here we go again into the same problem :)
  231. # [12:26] <tommorris> The DOCTYPE doesn't do anything, so there's not really a problem.
  232. # [12:27] <tommorris> It's cargo cult programming. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming ;)
  233. # [12:28] <ChiefRA> damn, it's the first time I heaf about this term.
  234. # [12:28] <ChiefRA> thanks :D
  235. # [12:28] <ChiefRA> I'm smarter now.
  236. # [12:28] <tommorris> Derives from Richard Feynman's excellent "cargo cult science" analogy.
  237. # [12:29] <tommorris> so, the only reason people use a doctype other than <!DOCTYPE html> is for validation. but the validation doesn't tell you anything interesting except that it validates to a DTD/XSD that has no bearing on how HTML is actually interpreted by the browser.
  238. # [12:29] * Joins: netweb (~netweb@unaffiliated/netweb)
  239. # [12:30] <tommorris> so you can get stuck in the loop of "well, I have to have the DOCTYPE because I need to validate it and I can't change the DOCTYPE because then it won't validate"
  240. # [12:30] <tommorris> well, the validation isn't telling you anything worth caring about, and the DOCTYPE isn't doing anything interesting.
  241. # [12:30] <ChiefRA> yeah, i believe so...
  242. # [12:31] <ChiefRA> did you guys knew about this? https://code.google.com/p/aump/
  243. # [12:31] <ChiefRA> it's kinda old if I look at the archive date of creation.
  244. # [12:31] <barnabywalters> ChiefRA: I hadn’t come across it, do you use it?
  245. # [12:31] <tommorris> I could say <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "Tom's Magical HTML variant - http://tommorris.org/magic/pixies.dtd"> but that doesn't mean WebKit or Gecko is going to treat the page any differently. All it cares about is the "DOCTYPE html" bit to not chuck it into quirks mode
  246. # [12:31] <barnabywalters> the demo page is broken http://code.davidjanes.com/aumfp/demo/
  247. # [12:32] <ChiefRA> nope, I just stumble upon it now, searching for hlisting into the Google code, for some real examples.
  248. # [12:32] <ChiefRA> tommorris totally agree with you :)
  249. # [12:32] <ChiefRA> mentality it the FIRST thing that has to change
  250. # [12:32] <ChiefRA> it's*
  251. # [12:33] <tommorris> ChiefRA: so, if you want an hListing parser, nag me and/or barnabywalters and hListing can be added to php-mf2 and/or mf2py
  252. # [12:33] <ChiefRA> I do want it if possible, but I would love to have it as a validator of somewhat
  253. # [12:34] <ChiefRA> if not, I can manually debug it with the help of the parser output.
  254. # [12:36] <ChiefRA> ba da.
  255. # [12:38] <ChiefRA> tommorris and barnabywalters if you will create the Hlisting parser please leave me a PM :) I'll happily use it :)
  256. # [12:38] <ChiefRA> I have to go now, see you all later. and thanks :)
  257. # [12:38] <barnabywalters> ChiefRA: bye!
  258. # [12:38] <tommorris> ChiefRA: I'll file a ticket on mf2py.
  259. # [12:38] <ChiefRA> ok, thanks :)
  260. # [12:38] <barnabywalters> well the first thing which needs to happen is for a h-listing mf2 vocab to be created
  261. # [12:39] <ChiefRA> I can do that.
  262. # [12:39] <ChiefRA> I can submit it on the proper page.
  263. # [12:39] <tommorris> ChiefRA: https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/issues/17
  264. # [12:43] <ChiefRA> thanks, I submitted a ticket to get my Github password back.
  265. # [12:43] <ChiefRA> :)))))))))
  266. # [13:12] <barnabywalters> okay I vastly improved the php-mf2 testing interface as the first steps towards making it into a syntatic validator: http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/
  267. # [13:14] <barnabywalters> at the very least, Codemirror does basic HTML syntax checking
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  274. # [14:25] <ChiefRA> back
  275. # [14:32] <tobyink> front
  276. # [14:45] <ChiefRA> aside :)
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  292. # [18:03] <Loqi> [@cishetboy] THANKPETE IM LAUHGING OS HCARD CHARLOTTe (http://twtr.io/op6955TcfG)
  293. # [18:04] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-254.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net)
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  295. # [18:04] <Loqi> tantek: barnabywalters left you a message 6 hours, 25 minutes ago: thanks for the heads-up about hproduct, for some reason the backcompat mappings were missing. Pushed to master, will add to the next tagged release
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  300. # [18:09] <@tantek> good morning - thanks barnabywalters!
  301. # [18:09] <barnabywalters> morning tantek — no problem
  302. # [18:09] <@tantek> tommorris: AFAIK the data-vocabulary stuff is *not* the same as schema
  303. # [18:09] <@tantek> it was *yet another* attempt by Google to create a hierarchy of types
  304. # [18:10] <@tantek> which schema rewrote yet again
  305. # [18:11] <@tantek> the data-vocabulary.org stuff was pure political posturing - when launched in 2009 with claimed RDFa support, Google wasn't even parsing RDFa yet - it was just a nod in attempt to seem neutral with respect to syntaxes. and no one was yet publishing any rdfa data-vocabulary either.
  306. # [18:12] <@tantek> in 2009 the only thing that google parsed that actually worked (at launch) was microformats
  307. # [18:12] <@tantek> they did eventually get the rdfa parsing working, but at launch it was vapor
  308. # [18:13] <tommorris> interesting. should really dig out the sources for all this stuff and make a Wikipedia article on the history of web data or something
  309. # [18:16] <@tantek> tommorris: I have a bunch of stuff cited re: the even older attempts by google and others in the recent microformats.org blog posts
  310. # [18:17] <@tantek> Google's legacy of structured data attempts could make for its own article
  311. # [18:17] <@tantek> from Google Base, to gData, to data-vocabulary they've had so many attempts
  312. # [18:17] <tommorris> I've been listening to the web history podcast. very early stuff: Mosaic, Netscape, early IE etc.
  313. # [18:18] <tommorris> tantek: I was once contacted by a publisher who wanted me to write a book called "The Case for GDATA". I wrote back and told them I didn't think there WAS a case for GDATA.
  314. # [18:18] <@tantek> tommorris: feel free to start documenting them each on their own pages (by name of technology) on the microformats.org wiki
  315. # [18:18] * Quits: RCheesley (~waterbaby@host81-156-240-28.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  316. # [18:18] <tommorris> Apparently, I was right.
  317. # [18:18] <@tantek> so you don't have to deal with notability nonsense
  318. # [18:19] <@tantek> since anything regarding past structured data research is perfectly reasonable and certainly in scope for documenting on microformats.org
  319. # [18:19] * tommorris knows notability rather well as he's had to decide on it hundreds of times. ;-)
  320. # [18:19] <@tantek> but may be too "inside baseball" for wikipedia
  321. # [18:19] <barnabywalters> tommorris: Re: GDATA that’s hilarious
  322. # [18:19] <@tantek> just saying, I know you're a WP admin and all and know all that stuff
  323. # [18:19] <tommorris> yep, it's worth having places outside of WP for stuff that falls out of scope - am also an admin on wikiqueer.org for LGBTQ history stuff that's not quite WP-worthy.
  324. # [18:19] <@tantek> that way you can also show that you documented it first more thoroughly in a more topical area / site
  325. # [18:19] <@tantek> and WP can have summaries instead
  326. # [18:20] <@tantek> whereas on microformats.org we can be thorough with documenting all the past history of overly hyped formats and such
  327. # [18:20] <barnabywalters> wow, I had never heard of “ROR”: http://www.rorweb.com/
  328. # [18:20] <@tantek> so many articles talking about how Google Base was going to kill this that and the other
  329. # [18:21] * aaronpk is now known as aaron_pk
  330. # [18:21] <tommorris> barnabywalters: there was a strange fetish for putting metadata inside RSS feeds for a while. see also: GeoRSS
  331. # [18:21] * aaron_pk is now known as aaronpk
  332. # [18:22] <@tantek> also a fetish for calling anything XYZRSS, e.g. see MediaRSS
  333. # [18:22] <@tantek> another Yahoo deadend IIRC
  334. # [18:23] <tommorris> I thought MediaRSS was still used by some podcast clients?
  335. # [18:23] <tommorris> Didn't Apple nick some of that for iTunes Podcast support
  336. # [18:23] <tommorris> oh, wait, no, they made their own XML NS - xmlns:itunes="http://www.itunes.com/dtds/podcast-1.0.dtd
  337. # [18:24] <@tantek> of course they did, XML culture is all about make up your own snowflake babel namespace
  338. # [18:25] <tommorris> on the µf wiki, do we need a deadlink/archive template btw? a lot of the historical stuff 404s now
  339. # [18:26] <tommorris> on WP, citation templates have the ability to put in "archiveurl" and "archivedate" parameters, and it explicitly notes that it's a link to an archive version. could do something similar or could KISS and just use links to archive.org
  340. # [18:30] <Loqi> [[hmedia]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hmedia&diff=64433&oldid=60776&rcid=100791 * TomMorris * (+86) fixing MediaRSS links to archive.org
  341. # [18:30] <@tantek> tommorris: happy to take your guidance on that one - whatever you think is both easiest to edit/add, and frankly, copy paste to wikipedia
  342. # [18:30] <tommorris> I'll play about with some later on
  343. # [18:30] <tommorris> it's quite useful to be able to tag broken links and then go through and fix them all using Special:ExternalLinks
  344. # [18:31] <Loqi> [[hmedia-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hmedia-fr&diff=64434&oldid=46101&rcid=100792 * TomMorris * (+86) replacing MediaRSS links to archive.org
  345. # [18:31] <Loqi> [[alternates-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=alternates-examples&diff=64435&oldid=37283&rcid=100793 * TomMorris * (+42) replacing MediaRSS links to archive.org
  346. # [18:31] <@tantek> tommorris: perhaps just make a /wiki/MediaRSS page and then link all the references on other pages to that?
  347. # [18:32] <@tantek> and then move all the archive / dead links / references to the /wiki/MediaRSS page?
  348. # [18:32] <tommorris> Eh, all done now. ;)
  349. # [18:32] <@tantek> just saying, if MediaRSS is really that dead, we might as well make a new canonical place to document things about it
  350. # [18:32] <tommorris> Indeed.
  351. # [18:32] <@tantek> documenting old formats is something microformats.org can still help with
  352. # [18:33] <@tantek> especially the trail of wreckage of xyzRSS and abcML attempts
  353. # [18:38] <Loqi> [[rdfa]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rdfa&diff=64436&oldid=56260&rcid=100794 * TomMorris * (+383) expanding
  354. # [18:39] * Quits: ivc (ivc3@elitus.x-pec.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  355. # [18:41] <Loqi> [[xoxo-opml-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=xoxo-opml-issues&diff=64437&oldid=41489&rcid=100795 * TomMorris * (+4) linking [[OPML]]
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  357. # [18:57] <Loqi> [[OPML]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=OPML&diff=64440&oldid=64438&rcid=100798 * TomMorris * (+297) RFC 822 (and not even that!) vs. ISO 8601
  358. # [18:58] <@tantek> wow tommorris is really having a good time tonight ;)
  359. # [18:58] <tommorris> I have a lot of grumpiness to channel. I should probably take it out on the Stairmaster instead.
  360. # [18:59] <@tantek> oh no, please go ahead and channel it on obsolete formats of yore. good times.
  361. # [18:59] <tommorris> you'll love the next one I'm just about to document
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  364. # [19:05] <tommorris> anyone remember *this*? http://microformats.org/wiki/TweepML
  365. # [19:06] <Loqi> [[Twitter]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Twitter&diff=64444&oldid=64443&rcid=100802 * TomMorris * (+0) fix
  366. # [19:09] <Loqi> [[twitter-syntax]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=twitter-syntax&diff=64445&oldid=43079&rcid=100803 * TomMorris * (-33) all the old tr.im shortlinks are dead. url shorteners really are a solution looking for a problem...
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  368. # [19:10] <Loqi> [[rel-tag]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-tag&diff=64446&oldid=52462&rcid=100804 * TomMorris * (-33) removing dead tr.im shortlink
  369. # [19:10] <Loqi> [[optimus]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=optimus&diff=64447&oldid=39327&rcid=100805 * TomMorris * (-33) removing dead tr.im shortlink
  370. # [19:11] <@tantek> sigh
  371. # [19:11] <Loqi> [[naming-principles]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=naming-principles&diff=64448&oldid=51881&rcid=100806 * TomMorris * (-32) removing dead tr.im shortlink
  372. # [19:11] <@tantek> tommorris: did you see /wiki/tr.im ?
  373. # [19:11] <@tantek> please be sure to create the alternate pages to increase findability for those dead tr.im links!
  374. # [19:12] <tommorris> oh, list them in equivalents?
  375. # [19:12] <@tantek> create and list equivalents yes
  376. # [19:12] <@tantek> for findability
  377. # [19:12] <@tantek> and then replace (rather than remove) the dead shortlinks on the individual pages
  378. # [19:12] <tommorris> ah, I see it
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  380. # [19:13] * philipashlock_ is now known as philipashlock
  381. # [19:14] <@tantek> tommorris: yeah I may be being a bit overly methodical about it, but I'm hoping to make it so that if/when people google for old tr.im URLs that we get top results for the relevant replacements
  382. # [19:18] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@46-239-239-203.tal.is) (Quit: barnabywalters)
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  384. # [19:43] <Loqi> [[wiki-better-than-email]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=wiki-better-than-email&diff=64452&oldid=46388&rcid=100810 * TomMorris * (+759) /* what if someone starts an edit war on an issue */ adding a discussion about Wikipedia's BRD
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  386. # [19:49] <Loqi> [[User:TomMorris]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=User:TomMorris&diff=64453&oldid=51789&rcid=100811 * TomMorris * (-110) tidying up
  387. # [19:51] <Loqi> [[tr.im]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=tr.im&diff=64454&oldid=64007&rcid=100812 * TomMorris * (+125) /* equivalents */ added some equivs
  388. # [19:55] <tommorris> tantek: just reading up on the rel parsing rules, it might be an idea to deprecate rel-tag
  389. # [19:56] <tommorris> or rather deprecate uses of it where it is obviously intended to not be document-scoped.
  390. # [19:57] <tommorris> µf2 h-entry spec already discourages other entry-level rel stuff including rel-syndication and rel-bookmark
  391. # [20:00] <@tantek> tommorris: agreed. please add to /wiki/rel-tag-issues - feel free to cite this in the logs too
  392. # [20:00] <@tantek> KevinMarks won't be too happy about it but I think we lost that battle (rel-tag scoping) a while ago
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  397. # [20:28] <Loqi> [[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=64455&oldid=52467&rcid=100813 * TomMorris * (+1388) added issue: Formal deprecation of object-level rel-tag usage
  398. # [20:28] <tommorris> tantek: ^^
  399. # [20:29] <tommorris> pour one out, ladies and gents, for the rel attribute.
  400. # [20:33] <@tantek> well, for using the rel attribute with anything else
  401. # [20:33] <@tantek> microformats2 parsing model has already adopted/enshrined the rel attribute as being useful at page level
  402. # [20:34] <@tantek> tommorris - that works
  403. # [20:34] <tommorris> so, of the microformats that are rel-based, we've got XFN - which isn't really going anywhere because of widespread implementation
  404. # [20:34] <tommorris> and rel-nofollow - again, not really going anywhere because of widespread implementation and quasi-standardisation by Google et al.
  405. # [20:35] <@tantek> there were also usability problems found with mixing rel/property in rdfa which provided the impetus to drop use of rel (or make it optional) in the changes from 1.1 to 1.2 I think
  406. # [20:35] <tommorris> I haven't kept up on RDFa development, alas. ;)
  407. # [20:35] * @tantek worries that he might know some aspect of RDFa development more than tommorris
  408. # [20:35] <@tantek> tommorris: on the contrary, subsets of XFN have become essential/useful like rel=me and re=contact
  409. # [20:36] <@tantek> and rel=author has become more useful
  410. # [20:36] <tommorris> I should clarify - by "not going anywhere" I mean, we're not going to suddenly change it, it's too entrenched.
  411. # [20:36] <@tantek> nofollow is a deadend yes
  412. # [20:36] <@tantek> due to abuse - it was a very bad design
  413. # [20:36] <Loqi> fo sho
  414. # [20:36] <@tantek> oh sorry
  415. # [20:36] <@tantek> Loqi, sometimes your delayed timing is pretty funny
  416. # [20:37] <@tantek> anyway - issue documentation looks good
  417. # [20:37] <tommorris> now that the age of Technorati has gone and we're in the age of hashtags, rel-tag is deprecatable without causing too much pain
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  419. # [20:41] <@tantek> yeah - it was good market research. sigh. pour one out for scoped rel-tags.
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  421. # [20:53] <KartikPrabhu> tommorris: agreed with the rel-tag scoping issue. Can't decide if that means rel-tag is completely useless
  422. # [20:53] <tommorris> KartikPrabhu: well, it's not necessarily useless if the scoping matches with the document. ;-)
  423. # [20:53] <KartikPrabhu> yes but when would anyone do that?
  424. # [20:54] <KartikPrabhu> specially with tag...
  425. # [20:54] <tommorris> permalink pages
  426. # [20:55] <KartikPrabhu> why use both rel-tag and u-category?
  427. # [20:55] <tommorris> there isn't really a reason to use both, but if it's just on the permalink page, at least the resulting parse is moderately useful
  428. # [20:55] <tommorris> it's when the tags are on the homepage that you get a problem
  429. # [20:55] <KartikPrabhu> true
  430. # [20:55] <KartikPrabhu> will have to check my usage
  431. # [20:56] <@tantek> KartikPrabhu: easier for more parsers to support page-level rel handling
  432. # [20:56] <@tantek> also less work for the author
  433. # [20:56] <@tantek> always good to enable / empower simpler (even if more limited) solutions
  434. # [20:56] <KartikPrabhu> it is more work for author if you say use rel-tag on permalink but not in feed page
  435. # [20:56] <tommorris> incidentally, we were discussing earlier with ChiefRA and barnabywalters the issue around microformats validation - checking to make sure that you don't use rel-tags inside h-entry (or even inside <article> and other semantic-level elements) is something worth checking
  436. # [20:57] <@tantek> same reason we have rel=in-reply-to and u-in-reply-to
  437. # [20:57] <tommorris> we should probably have a page for useful validation rules. will write one in a sec.
  438. # [20:57] <Loqi> yea
  439. # [20:57] <@tantek> tommorris: sounds more like linting than validation
  440. # [20:58] <tommorris> yep, indeed.
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  443. # [21:10] <tommorris> tantek: http://microformats.org/wiki/PDF and http://microformats.org/wiki/pay-to-read_standards
  444. # [21:10] <tommorris> hadleybeeman: http://microformats.org/wiki/PDF mentions gov.uk's standardisation of PDF. ;)
  445. # [21:13] * Quits: gRegor` (~me@c-71-239-44-58.hsd1.il.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  446. # [21:14] <Loqi> [[pay-to-read standards]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=pay-to-read_standards&diff=64458&oldid=64456&rcid=100816 * TomMorris * (+246) a quote from timbl
  447. # [21:16] <hadleybeeman> If you want to be pedantic, tommorris, the wording you want isn't "recognised by the UK government's policy paper;" take it from "PDF/A must be used for static versions of documents produced for download and archiving that are not intended for editing, in particular PDF/A-1 and PDF/A-2."
  448. # [21:16] <hadleybeeman> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/open-standards-for-government/viewing-government-documents
  449. # [21:18] <hadleybeeman> But, overall — glad we could help. :)
  450. # [21:19] <Loqi> [[PDF]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=PDF&diff=64459&oldid=64457&rcid=100817 * TomMorris * (+128) thanks hadleybeeman
  451. # [21:20] <tommorris> speaking of ISO standards, can anyone remember what the US military standard version of ISO 8601 is?
  452. # [21:21] <tommorris> because that's published free-to-read unlike the ISO version
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  459. # [22:34] <tobyink> ANSI INCITS 30-1997 (R2008)?
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The end :)