/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2014-10-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 06 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  36. # [08:38] <shaners> Has anyone moved hMedia into mf2-land as h-media?
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  38. # [08:49] <@tantek> ah - sorry - I shoud have answered that here
  39. # [08:49] <@tantek> copying from #indiewebcamp for the logs: in practice hMedia never found any interesting consuming applications, so it didn't get moved forward to microformats2
  40. # [08:49] <@tantek> basically, any classic microformat that has no consuming applications got dropped.
  41. # [08:49] <@tantek> and only those with publicly visible / useful consuming applications got upgraded to microformats2, and even those had every property scrutinized.
  42. # [08:53] <shaners> 👍
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  45. # [09:21] <Loqi> [[representative-hcard-authoring]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=representative-hcard-authoring&diff=64576&oldid=42788&rcid=100940 * Tantek * (+58) needs update for microformats2
  46. # [09:22] <Loqi> [[representative-hcard-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=representative-hcard-parsing&diff=64577&oldid=64547&rcid=100941 * Tantek * (+58) needs update for microformats2
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  49. # [09:31] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=64578&oldid=64427&rcid=100942 * Tantek * (+26) /* parsing a u- property */ or audio for src attribute per KevinMarks realworld publishing http://feed.unmung.com/feed?feed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.wnyc.org%2Fonthemedia. mark as {{new}} for review.
  50. # [09:32] <@tantek> !tell barnabywalters, tommorris, KartikPrabhu please review "new" http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_u-_property
  51. # [09:32] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
  52. # [09:32] <tommorris> tantek: will have a look at shortly when in office
  53. # [09:32] <Loqi> tommorris: tantek left you a message 29 seconds ago: please review "new" http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_u-_property
  54. # [09:32] <tommorris> actually, looking now. yup. seems reasonable.
  55. # [09:33] <tommorris> any reason audio and not video too?
  56. # [09:33] <@tantek> tommorris: see edit comment. real world use-case driven
  57. # [09:34] <@tantek> it's under consideration here: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Properties
  58. # [09:34] <@tantek> * u-video - consider special u- parsing rules for <video>
  59. # [09:34] <@tantek> but no one is publishing that yet so...
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  61. # [09:37] <KartikPrabhu> tantek: looks good
  62. # [09:37] <Loqi> KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 5 minutes ago: please review "new" http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_u-_property
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  64. # [09:43] <@tantek> ok I'll give it day for barnabywalters before I remove the {{new}}
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  95. # [13:51] <Loqi> [[hatom-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hatom-examples-in-wild&diff=64579&oldid=48969&rcid=100943 * Pradeep * (+79) /* new and uncategorized examples */
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  104. # [14:15] <xtof> neuro`michel_v bonjour. Pour info, meetup indiewebcamp improvisé et ouvert par Auli nouvelle venue et motivée iwc. On s’y retrouve ? à la mutinerie 29 rue de Meaux, Paris Bise. http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieWebCampParis
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  133. # [16:47] <Loqi> [[representative-hcard-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=representative-hcard-parsing&diff=64580&oldid=64577&rcid=100944 * Barnabywalters * (+598) /* representative hCard algorithm */ raised parsing issues
  134. # [16:52] <@KevinMarks> See http://feed.unmung.com/feed?feed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.feedburner.com%2Fputthison for an example with video
  135. # [16:52] <barnabywalters> KevinMarks: an example of what?
  136. # [16:52] <Loqi> barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 7 hours, 20 minutes ago: please review "new" http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_u-_property
  137. # [16:53] <barnabywalters> KevinMarks: ah okay I understand now :)
  138. # [16:54] <barnabywalters> what about <audio><source>? and preserving codec information for each of the links?
  139. # [16:54] <barnabywalters> just grabbing <audio src=“”> is easy enough but it doesn’t cover real-world <audio> element usage
  140. # [16:55] <barnabywalters> unless you put the u-audio class on <source> children, and apply the parsing rule to those as well
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  143. # [17:13] <@KevinMarks> How do we cue your feed generator to make podcast catching friendly output?
  144. # [17:14] <@KevinMarks> You can have multiple audio formats in a podcast too?
  145. # [17:16] <barnabywalters> I don’t know anything about podcast markup, but if someone can spec out what the RSS <entry> should look like for a post with audio elements in, I’ll update it
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  160. # [18:43] <barnabywalters> good morning tantek
  161. # [18:43] <barnabywalters> for your review: tantek: for your review:
  162. # [18:43] <barnabywalters> argh
  163. # [18:43] <barnabywalters> pastings
  164. # [18:43] <barnabywalters> http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=representative-hcard-parsing&diff=64580&oldid=64577&rcid=100944
  165. # [18:44] <@tantek> second question was answered last night in #indiewebcamp
  166. # [18:44] <barnabywalters> link?
  167. # [18:45] <@tantek> short answer: group blogs, where people put the blog in all their h-cards
  168. # [18:45] <@tantek> so there are multiple people with the URL of the home page, on the home page
  169. # [18:45] <barnabywalters> tantek: real-world example?
  170. # [18:45] <@tantek> and none of them are the representative h-card
  171. # [18:45] <@tantek> the point is to avoid such false positives
  172. # [18:45] <@tantek> you want examples of group blogs?
  173. # [18:45] <@tantek> there's tons of them
  174. # [18:46] <barnabywalters> tantek: one with all of the author’s profiles on the homepage
  175. # [18:46] <barnabywalters> may as well document it if you’re going to base parsing behaviour off that assertion
  176. # [18:46] <@tantek> and if/when they all markup their abbreviated bios with h-card then they'll all have URLs to the home page
  177. # [18:46] <@tantek> unfortunately I don't have it offhand - from experience at Technorati 2004-2007. KevinMarks can also validate.
  178. # [18:47] <@tantek> isn't comparing URLs specified by the URL standard? http://url.spec.whatwg.org/
  179. # [18:47] <@tantek> (for the first issue)
  180. # [18:48] <barnabywalters> if so it should be linked to
  181. # [18:48] <@tantek> true
  182. # [18:48] <barnabywalters> I can’t see a “comparison”, or even “normalization” heading in there
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  184. # [18:50] <barnabywalters> RE group blog with profiles on homepage example — you don’t have a monopoly on demanding real-world evidence ;) other people are allowed to require it too
  185. # [18:51] <barnabywalters> there are none representing the group blog case already on http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard-examples
  186. # [18:51] <barnabywalters> the closest thing is multiple conference speakers, which is not equivalent as speakers wouldn’t add the conference site as a url to their h-card
  187. # [19:00] <@tantek> in this case I'm trying to avoid false positives, rather than make up a property for something without evidence
  188. # [19:01] <@tantek> it's an aspect of being more conservative with protocol/format design
  189. # [19:01] <@tantek> the only indirect circumstantial evidence I have is people using URLs on the Twitter profiles that point to group blogs, or their companies, rather than *themsevles*
  190. # [19:02] <barnabywalters> tantek: that’s a useful distinction
  191. # [19:04] <@tantek> and look at this another way - if we do allow mere page = u-url matching, then we explicitly *disallow* the behavior of group-blogs with mini-profiles for the people on the home page which link to the home page.
  192. # [19:05] <@tantek> maybe that's ok? and I do feel that's one of those generation 2-3 use-cases that we're not going to see a lot of until indieweb stuff is more popular
  193. # [19:06] <@tantek> like a family site
  194. # [19:06] <@tantek> where only one person is maintaining the site, but everyone in the family has an account on it
  195. # [19:06] <@tantek> FWIW - Known has such assumptions built in - that one install might be used by a small group like that.
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  198. # [19:30] <barnabywalters> !tell tantek ah yes I understand better now, it’s the liberal-in-what-you-accept conservative-in-what-you-publish principle applied to formats. makes total sense
  199. # [19:30] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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  206. # [20:43] <KevinMarks__> here's a multi-author known blog wiht hcards: http://launch.orbit.do/
  207. # [20:45] <KevinMarks__> so http://launch.orbit.do/profile/jason should have u-uid on it for being the profile of the author?
  208. # [20:50] <KartikPrabhu> KevinMarks__ that seems to be what rep-h-card algo says
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  217. # [22:19] <@tantek> barnabywalters: I'm willing to go with your proposal, while documenting my reservations / fears as an outstanding issue, and see if anything breaks.
  218. # [22:19] <Loqi> tantek: barnabywalters left you a message 2 hours, 48 minutes ago: ah yes I understand better now, it’s the liberal-in-what-you-accept conservative-in-what-you-publish principle applied to formats. makes total sense
  219. # [22:19] <@tantek> since no one else seems to confirm my concerns
  220. # [22:20] <@tantek> dropping the u-uid requirement makes it easier for authors/publishers to "get it right"
  221. # [22:20] <@tantek> as well as gets more real world examples to "just work" immediately, e.g. adactio.com
  222. # [22:21] <@tantek> so that's a concrete real world benefit now, that we have to measure against the hypothetical even if highly expected problem scenario
  223. # [22:21] <@tantek> does that reasoning make sense to you?
  224. # [22:26] <barnabywalters> tantek: actually your concerns make a lot of sense
  225. # [22:27] <barnabywalters> I wonder if there’d be any downsides to speccing the stricter version but noting that implementations may choose looser requirements if they want
  226. # [22:27] <@tantek> that's worse IMO
  227. # [22:28] <barnabywalters> as far as I know there are very few real-world h-cards with u-uid properties
  228. # [22:28] <@tantek> leads to less interop
  229. # [22:28] <@tantek> it's good that I was able to explain my concerns so that they made sense
  230. # [22:28] <@tantek> HOWEVER, your point about no real world examples still stands.
  231. # [22:28] <@tantek> well that's another challenge
  232. # [22:28] <@tantek> and the counter-point to " very few real-world h-cards with u-uid " is what I said about adactio.com - dropping the u-uid requirement gets more real world examples to "just work" immediately
  233. # [22:30] <barnabywalters> how about simply requiring there to only be one h-card on the page with the same u-url as the page for it to be representative
  234. # [22:30] <barnabywalters> if there’s one with u-url and u-uid == url, that’s the rep. h-card
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  236. # [22:30] <barnabywalters> if there are multiple with u-url == url, one with u-uid == u-url == url, that’s the rep. h-card
  237. # [22:31] <barnabywalters> if there are multiple with u-url == url, none are the rep. h-card
  238. # [22:31] <barnabywalters> unless the u-url == rel-me case overrides that
  239. # [22:31] <@tantek> that might actually be sufficient - uniqueness of u-url = page
  240. # [22:31] <barnabywalters> I think that covers all the cases
  241. # [22:31] <@tantek> assuming no u-uid == u-url == page
  242. # [22:32] <@tantek> in summary , just adding one step
  243. # [22:32] <@tantek> after the u-uid == u-url == page test
  244. # [22:32] <@tantek> if there is only one h-card with u-url == page, use that h-card
  245. # [22:32] <barnabywalters> tantek: yep, if no u-uid == u-url == page found, look for SINGLE u-url == page
  246. # [22:32] <@tantek> otherwise there is no definitive representative h-card
  247. # [22:33] <barnabywalters> tbh I’d rather people used the u-url == rel-me markup instead. That way implementations don’t have to worry about URL normalisation and matching
  248. # [22:33] <@tantek> ok that sounds like a good very deliberate incremental step forward that both addresses real world examples like adactio.com, *and* provides some guarding against the multi-author blog case
  249. # [22:33] <barnabywalters> that’s what I’m recommending people do in the indiewebify.me sample code if there’s no h-card found
  250. # [22:33] <@tantek> even u-url = rel-me markup needs URL normalisation and matching
  251. # [22:34] <@tantek> agreed
  252. # [22:34] <barnabywalters> tantek: not if the markup is <a class=“u-url” rel=“me”>
  253. # [22:34] <@tantek> but you can't tell that from the parse results
  254. # [22:34] <barnabywalters> the normalisation and matching is to handle discrepancies between what’s on the page and what the user types in
  255. # [22:34] <barnabywalters> tantek: you can’t, but they’re guaranteed to be an exact match
  256. # [22:34] <@tantek> and you still have to check == page URL
  257. # [22:35] <barnabywalters> regardless of the URL which was used to locate the page
  258. # [22:35] <barnabywalters> tantek: not according to http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard-parsing
  259. # [22:35] <barnabywalters> the second step doesn’t mention matching the actual page URL
  260. # [22:40] <barnabywalters> talking of normalisation rules, did anyone find a spec for that? it’s actually quite a common topic
  261. # [22:41] <barnabywalters> and ideally one which should be applied consistently
  262. # [22:55] <barnabywalters> tantek: thanks for asking in #whatwg, you just beat me to it :)
  263. # [22:56] <@tantek> lol ok
  264. # [22:56] <@tantek> so for now, we can go with "parse them first and then compare the serialization" apparently :)
  265. # [22:56] <barnabywalters> as in, parse the URLs? and compare the parts individually?
  266. # [22:56] <barnabywalters> that seems sane
  267. # [22:57] <@tantek> yeah
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  269. # [22:59] <barnabywalters> predictably, PHP’s parse_url function doesn’t parse the URLs as specified
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The end :)