/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2014-10-16 / end

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  67. # [16:12] <ChiefRA> Guys, I'm looking at the mf1 hListing and it's still not clear how to implement/use it although Google has managed to incorporate it into its algorithms. Can someone with Admin rights unlock the page so I can edit it in order to become more eaier understandable?
  68. # [16:14] <ChiefRA> Loqi !tell tantek please unlock the http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting page so I can edit it to make it a little more accessible for implementation
  69. # [16:17] * Quits: kensanata (~user@fsf/member/kensanata) (Remote host closed the connection)
  70. # [16:20] <pfefferle> ChiefRA the page is not locked
  71. # [16:25] <Loqi> [[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists&diff=64596&oldid=64091&rcid=100960 * Pfefferle * (+0)
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  74. # [16:35] <ChiefRA> pfefferle for me looks like it was loked... hmmm
  75. # [16:35] <ChiefRA> locked*
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  78. # [16:50] <ChiefRA> hi tantek, are you on?
  79. # [16:51] <Loqi> [[hlisting]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hlisting&diff=64597&oldid=60774&rcid=100961 * ChiefRA * (+34) /* Schema */
  80. # [16:51] <@tantek> good morning ChiefRA
  81. # [16:52] <ChiefRA> morning :)
  82. # [16:52] <ChiefRA> I'm trying to get a final shape for hListing so I was hoping you can help me out a little.
  83. # [16:53] <Loqi> [[hlisting]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hlisting&diff=64598&oldid=64597&rcid=100962 * ChiefRA * (+4) /* Schema */
  84. # [16:54] <@tantek> ChiefRA are you publishing hListing or consuming it?
  85. # [16:54] <ChiefRA> publishing - using for real estate.
  86. # [16:54] <Loqi> [[hcard-supporting-user-profiles]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcard-supporting-user-profiles&diff=64599&oldid=63965&rcid=100963 * Pfefferle * (-555) moved YIID to "offline" and removed some failing favicons
  87. # [16:56] <ChiefRA> tantek and I have some questions to ask you. Based on these questions I'll modify a little bit the Wiki too, adding some examples to be more self explanatory.
  88. # [16:56] <Loqi> [[microformats2]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2&diff=64600&oldid=64574&rcid=100964 * Pfefferle * (+17) Marked spreadly as "offline"
  89. # [16:56] <ChiefRA> 1st question: if listing action is optional why is it bolded?
  90. # [16:57] <ChiefRA> shouldn't we place the required properties first on the list?
  91. # [16:57] <@tantek> ChiefRA - the biggest challenge is that we can't find any evidence of documented consuming applications actually doing anything with hListing
  92. # [16:57] <Loqi> [[h-card]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=h-card&diff=64601&oldid=64581&rcid=100965 * Pfefferle * (+17) Marked spreadly as "offline"
  93. # [16:57] <@tantek> hence we haven't made h-listing
  94. # [16:57] <@tantek> ChiefRA - I tried the group related properties
  95. # [16:58] <Loqi> [[h-entry]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=h-entry&diff=64602&oldid=64590&rcid=100966 * Pfefferle * (+17) Marked spreadly as "offline"
  96. # [16:58] <ChiefRA> tantek - I was hoping that since Google adhere to it I think there is still hope, at least for using it to list it in search results as rich snippets
  97. # [16:58] <@tantek> ChiefRA - I was hoping that too
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  99. # [16:59] <@tantek> since they claim to!
  100. # [16:59] <@tantek> however I have been unable to find any pages that use hListing that show up in Google results with a rich snippet
  101. # [16:59] <ChiefRA> so I wanted to clarify a little bit the implementation, to make it a little bit easier for users to implement it.
  102. # [16:59] <@tantek> that makes sense
  103. # [17:00] <ChiefRA> I do want to poke them through John Mueller to enhace a lit bit their understanding on the format, maybe we'll see it in search results :)
  104. # [17:00] <@tantek> one thing that may help is updating the hListing spec to look more like hCard
  105. # [17:01] <tommorris> transferred from elsewhere: I seem to be in (internal) standards mode at work, writing validators and schemas and so on. microformats work has put me in good stead: simple plain definitions, Pareto Principle, having values defined on an (internal) wiki, basing decisions on data.
  106. # [17:01] <@tantek> very cool tommorris !
  107. # [17:01] <ChiefRA> tantek - so far, they don't fully understand the format, as I've seen in their http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets
  108. # [17:02] <ChiefRA> so, I wish to unbold the listing action and place some exmaples at the end of it
  109. # [17:03] <@tantek> I'm doing a few minor edits
  110. # [17:03] <ChiefRA> ok go ahead, please let me know when you're finished.
  111. # [17:03] <ChiefRA> in the mean time, let's set some examples to be able to publish them there.
  112. # [17:03] <ChiefRA> 1st one is the hlisting declaration, I'm seeing it like this: <div class="hlisting housing offer-sale">
  113. # [17:04] <ChiefRA> strictly related to the real estate selling properties.
  114. # [17:05] <ChiefRA> We had in the past a mf parser and validator, which I used a lot to validate this format, to make sure I use the right properties in the right order to validate and get the maximum out of it. Now it's gone and I don't know where to get a good one.
  115. # [17:06] <Loqi> [[principles]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=principles&diff=64603&oldid=59851&rcid=100967 * TomMorris * (+365) endorsements := (me, ...)
  116. # [17:08] <Loqi> [[hlisting]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hlisting&diff=64604&oldid=64598&rcid=100968 * Tantek * (-225) editorial changes to start moving form and structure of this page in the direction of the hCard spec
  117. # [17:08] <@tantek> ChiefRA take a look
  118. # [17:08] <ChiefRA> in a sec
  119. # [17:08] <@tantek> re: <div class="hlisting housing offer-sale"> - that doesn't work since properties have to be on elements *inside* the hlisting element
  120. # [17:09] <ChiefRA> it looks nice :)
  121. # [17:09] <ChiefRA> I can do that, no problem.
  122. # [17:09] <@tantek> ChiefRA - cool - thanks for your attention to detail in hListing!
  123. # [17:09] <ChiefRA> my only issue was if I'm using them correctly
  124. # [17:09] <@tantek> tommorris: perhaps datestamp/sign your endorsement?
  125. # [17:09] <tommorris> yup.
  126. # [17:10] <Loqi> [[principles]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=principles&diff=64605&oldid=64603&rcid=100969 * TomMorris * (+12) adding datestamp
  127. # [17:11] <ChiefRA> tantek I mean hListing it's clear. housing property -> should be stipulated as an example right there on the main hListing properties
  128. # [17:13] <ChiefRA> and the properties couple: offer-sale offer-rent and so on, I presume we should list them too within the main hListing format, as now on the listing action it's listed only sell, rent... but they are not exemplified as they are to be used in real life examples, as couples.
  129. # [17:14] <ChiefRA> does it make sense?
  130. # [17:14] <@tantek> we do need more examples
  131. # [17:14] <@tantek> maybe start with adding one more example to http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting#Examples that we can discuss?
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  133. # [17:16] <ChiefRA> tantek, ok good point, i'll put it in there right now, so we can discuss it :)
  134. # [17:20] <Loqi> [[hlisting]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hlisting&diff=64606&oldid=64604&rcid=100970 * ChiefRA * (+1756) /* Examples */
  135. # [17:21] <ChiefRA> tantek, done => under the name of Real Estate Listing for Sale
  136. # [17:26] <@tantek> ChiefRA cool. we need to figure out a way to put "housing offer-sale" i another element *inside* the <div class="hlisting">
  137. # [17:26] <Loqi> [[hlisting]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hlisting&diff=64607&oldid=64606&rcid=100971 * ChiefRA * (+801) /* Examples */
  138. # [17:27] <@tantek> e.g. the simple example has <span class="offer rent">for rent</span>
  139. # [17:27] <ChiefRA> see now please as I've added the extracted markup data too
  140. # [17:28] <ChiefRA> I think the most appropriate place to be doing this would be next to the "item", as it is an item after all?
  141. # [17:29] <ChiefRA> <span class="item housing"> ?
  142. # [17:30] <ChiefRA> the thing is, in real life examples, nobody specifies the "for sale" and "for rent" within the actual page.
  143. # [17:30] <@tantek> ChiefRA - "housing" is presumably the item type which needs to go inside the item
  144. # [17:30] <@tantek> and the point about offer sale is that it needs to be wrapped around whateve human readable text in the listing says that it is "FOR SALE"
  145. # [17:30] <ChiefRA> those are the categories in which you search for a house, so those properties should be stipulated only within the actual code.
  146. # [17:31] <@tantek> I disagree - even in this example, there is the text
  147. # [17:31] <@tantek> "Listing provided..."
  148. # [17:31] <@tantek> in this context, that means "for sale"
  149. # [17:31] <@tantek> unless I am missing something
  150. # [17:31] <ChiefRA> you do :)
  151. # [17:31] <ChiefRA> as on the real estate websites, the SALE or RENT are categories,
  152. # [17:32] <ChiefRA> they do not stipulate next to each property that it is for sale, I'll show you an example.
  153. # [17:32] <ChiefRA> http://www.sothebysrealty.com/eng/sales/new-york-ny-usa
  154. # [17:33] <ChiefRA> the sale is stipulated within the URL, you chosen to go by SALE category first, and it has a price - big price - attached to it, so it's obvious (for humans) that it is automatically for sale
  155. # [17:34] <ChiefRA> this is only valid for real estate.
  156. # [17:35] <ChiefRA> for any other items - like phones etc etc on bazaar websites - it is in deed specified in clear text that those items are for sale, but here on real estate however, they are not.
  157. # [17:36] <ChiefRA> that's why is such a big confusion on microformats implementation for real estate.
  158. # [17:38] <@tantek> ok
  159. # [17:38] <@tantek> ChiefRA - that search result page has "For sale" in it, visibly
  160. # [17:39] <ChiefRA> so, for this particular type - Real Estate - we should be able to encapsulate all these properties in only one line, so I suggest we go for the "item" to look like <span class="item housing offer-sale"
  161. # [17:39] <@tantek> for a particular result (I clicked the first one) e.g. http://www.sothebysrealty.com/eng/sales/detail/180-l-1182-cq2v5e/the-penthouse-at-the-pierre-hotel-upper-east-side-new-york-ny-10065 - I see your point
  162. # [17:39] <@tantek> no text of "For Sale"
  163. # [17:40] <@tantek> and yes the URL says /sales/
  164. # [17:40] <@tantek> perhaps for such examples, we should markup the price
  165. # [17:40] <ChiefRA> tantek, even for the main page, the one in my example, it's only within the H1 stipulated for sale.
  166. # [17:40] <ChiefRA> but we markup the individual items, not the h1.
  167. # [17:40] <ChiefRA> :)
  168. # [17:40] <@tantek> right
  169. # [17:40] <ChiefRA> can you see my point?
  170. # [17:40] <@tantek> yes
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  172. # [17:40] <ChiefRA> ok.
  173. # [17:40] <ChiefRA> and I got another even better example:
  174. # [17:40] <@tantek> hence my suggestion, perhaps for such examples, we should markup the visible price as implying offer for sale
  175. # [17:40] <@tantek> how is that?
  176. # [17:41] <ChiefRA> you can't just because you may have a price for rent also...
  177. # [17:41] <ChiefRA> and you can have a mixed list of rent, sale, and buy properties.
  178. # [17:41] <@tantek> but the price for rent typically indicates its monthly/yearly period!
  179. # [17:41] <@tantek> so yes we can mark that up for rent
  180. # [17:41] <@tantek> and others for sale
  181. # [17:42] <@tantek> what's an example of a "buy property" ?
  182. # [17:42] <ChiefRA> I don't have, but it was in discussion.
  183. # [17:42] <ChiefRA> it['s just a silly example.
  184. # [17:42] <ChiefRA> as in real life, you can't put that up on a website.
  185. # [17:43] <ChiefRA> the thing is, we need to figure out a way of marking up each individual property on a list, like the list from my example even though, they do not stipulate the actual action" within the visible text: sale, rent.
  186. # [17:44] <ChiefRA> and by marking up the "housing" along with it, this should set the exception to TRUE, to allow us to markup this without the need of an actual visible text.
  187. # [17:45] <ChiefRA> does it make sense?
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  190. # [17:50] <@tantek> we don't need to figure out silly examples only examples we find :)
  191. # [17:50] <ChiefRA> ok, mea culpa on that one :P
  192. # [17:55] <Loqi> [[hlisting]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hlisting&diff=64608&oldid=64607&rcid=100972 * Tantek * (-790) Real Estate Listing for Sale example: use photo for type - housing, and price for offer sale. remove extracted structure until we figure out a better place to put that - maybe separate page for all
  193. # [17:55] <@tantek> ChiefRA see my changes to http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting#Real_Estate_Listing_for_Sale
  194. # [17:55] <@tantek> also let's not worry about the extracted stuff for now
  195. # [17:56] <@tantek> or rather - if you want to document that - perhaps do so for all example on a separate page
  196. # [17:56] <@tantek> e.g. microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-examples-parsed-structure
  197. # [17:57] <ChiefRA> tantek: it's not working to have two ALTs on a picture, it will misslead google
  198. # [17:57] <ChiefRA> the offer and sale are very well positioned on the price
  199. # [17:58] <ChiefRA> but the housing could be sit next to the "item", in fact it's the main item property
  200. # [17:58] <ChiefRA> what do you say?
  201. # [18:01] <@tantek> that makes better sense yes
  202. # [18:01] <@tantek> good suggestion
  203. # [18:02] <ChiefRA> should you or I do it?
  204. # [18:02] <@tantek> go for it!
  205. # [18:02] <@tantek> iterating back and forth is a good way :)
  206. # [18:03] <ChiefRA> ok :)
  207. # [18:03] <ChiefRA> one more thing remains to be defined: is the Real Estate Address
  208. # [18:04] <ChiefRA> as every real estate has a phisical address, that should be underlined and extracted as a stand alone item.
  209. # [18:04] <Loqi> [[hlisting]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hlisting&diff=64609&oldid=64608&rcid=100973 * ChiefRA * (-8) /* Real Estate Listing for Sale */
  210. # [18:06] <ChiefRA> it normally goes under the item info, but Google desn't know yet how to extract it other than using the same principle as within the hCard
  211. # [18:11] <Loqi> [[hlisting]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hlisting&diff=64610&oldid=64609&rcid=100974 * ChiefRA * (+167) /* Properties */ - added item type among the main hListing properties with examples
  212. # [18:13] <@tantek> the address is part of the item
  213. # [18:13] <@tantek> yes the hcard
  214. # [18:15] <ChiefRA> I know, I also know that we try to make the microformats as simple as possible, but don't you think that if we add the word item next to the adr where the adr is stipulated, the specific parsers (e.g. Google and any other extractors) will definitely know that this is the phisical address of them item and NOT of the lister?
  215. # [18:16] <ChiefRA> I mean, I try to see it from the parser's point of view: it needs to know the exact location from where to extract this data in order to validate it.
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  217. # [18:16] <@tantek> that's the difference between class="item adr"
  218. # [18:16] <@tantek> and class="lister vcard"
  219. # [18:16] <@tantek> that's how it knows what to associate with what
  220. # [18:16] <ChiefRA> ok, so you say that it has to be itterated as "item adr" and not simple "adr" ?
  221. # [18:17] * Quits: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.130) (Quit: pfefferle)
  222. # [18:17] <@tantek> there is already class="item"
  223. # [18:17] <@tantek> so it needs to be expanded to class="item adr"
  224. # [18:17] <@tantek> if you want to specify that the item is a specific address :)
  225. # [18:18] <ChiefRA> ok, so you say there is no need of duplicating the item class next to the adr, rather to place the adr class next to the item?
  226. # [18:18] <@tantek> correct
  227. # [18:19] <ChiefRA> let me check how Google sees that :)
  228. # [18:21] <ChiefRA> it doesn't :) at least not yet.
  229. # [18:22] <ChiefRA> it should know to extract the "adr" from the "item" I'll make sure I'll bring this into the discussion with John for his engineers.
  230. # [18:23] <ChiefRA> one more thing tantek: we need to make the correlation within the hListing properties examples, so for the users to know which should be combined with whith.
  231. # [18:23] <@tantek> yes
  232. # [18:23] <ChiefRA> I mean to offer them the new proper examples to know that they need to combine the ""price" with "offer" and "sale", the "
  233. # [18:23] <ChiefRA> "itme" with "housing" :)
  234. # [18:23] <ChiefRA> item*
  235. # [18:24] <@tantek> the best way to show that is with examples
  236. # [18:24] <ChiefRA> yes, agree, but we also need to say that on the Properties somehow, a short version.
  237. # [18:25] <ChiefRA> here I mean:
  238. # [18:25] <ChiefRA> hListing
  239. # [18:25] <ChiefRA> version. optional. text.
  240. # [18:25] <ChiefRA> listing action. optional. one or more tags, suggested set: sell | rent | trade | meet | announce | offer | wanted | event | service
  241. # [18:25] <ChiefRA> lister. required. hCard | (fn || email || url || tel).
  242. # [18:25] <@tantek> that makes sense
  243. # [18:30] * Joins: Soopaman (~soopaman@209-195-90-19.cpe.distributel.net)
  244. # [18:31] <ChiefRA> ok then, can you please take another look at my example to see if I missed something else from within the code? That example I wish to show to Google team, to ask them to be taken into consideration for a better recognition in Google.
  245. # [18:32] <ChiefRA> tantek, should we also remove the word "draft" from it as now we can consider it as being a mature version? :P
  246. # [18:34] * Quits: Soopaman1 (~soopaman@66.49.188.89) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  247. # [18:36] <ChiefRA> tantek: one more thing: please have a look at this line: listing action. optional. one or more tags, suggested set: sell | rent | trade | meet | announce | offer | wanted | event | service it seems that here are mixed examples from "listing type" - offer, wanted - and "listing action" - sale, rent - which should be placed on a different line.
  248. # [18:37] <ChiefRA> tantek: I'm going out for dinner, I'll be back later on maybe we can definitivate this one :) thanks for your help and see you later. Bye guys.
  249. # [18:43] * Quits: Soopaman (~soopaman@209-195-90-19.cpe.distributel.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  250. # [18:50] <@tantek> ChiefRA - re: draft - we need to keep it as a draft until we have some interop
  251. # [18:50] <@tantek> I think this is the accurate state of the page: http://microformats.org/wiki/process#Drafts
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  260. # [22:09] <Loqi> [[microdata]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microdata&diff=64611&oldid=64491&rcid=100975 * Tantek * (+487) microformats2 offers extension methods as well, link directly to how-to, provide brief textual examples
  261. # [22:21] <@tantek> !tell Mark87 take a look at http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-prefixes re: collisions etc.
  262. # [22:21] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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The end :)