/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2014-11-07 / end

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  64. # [16:10] <elux> hello
  65. # [16:11] <elux> anyone around?
  66. # [16:11] <elux> i was just wondering if anyone has seen success with google being able to better index pages with microformats 1 or 2 semantics ?
  67. # [16:11] <elux> i haven't seen it helpful for myself, but maybe im doing something wrong
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  92. # [19:09] <elux> hello
  93. # [19:09] <elux> just wondering if i should be using schema.org or microformats2 to mark up my page to offer better semantics?
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  97. # [19:12] <@tantek> elux - microformats is less work so I'd say start with that.
  98. # [19:12] <Loqi> tantek: ChiefRA left you a message 4 days, 4 hours ago: Hi mate, I've created a new temporary page to fix and improve the implementation details for hListing. See and compare 1-on-1 the "Properties" and "Property details" sections from both pages.
  99. # [19:12] <elux> i prefer how microforamts2 looks ..
  100. # [19:12] <Loqi> tantek: ChiefRA left you a message 4 days, 4 hours ago: new page http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-duplicated-for-discussions and the original one http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting
  101. # [19:12] <elux> i think schema.org markup is super ugly
  102. # [19:12] <@tantek> elux - cool good to know. and thank you - that was part of the goal of microformats2 design - easier/nicer markup
  103. # [19:12] <elux> but i dont see the microformats stuff i added showing up in google's webmaster tools
  104. # [19:12] <elux> makes me think its not working
  105. # [19:13] <@tantek> elux - odd, could you share your URL here?
  106. # [19:13] <elux> http://deloitte.pressly.com/exponential-technology/44468-googles-secretive-deepmind-startup-unveils-a-neural-turing-machine-mit-technology-review
  107. # [19:14] <elux> that is an angularjs page.. so you will have to set the user-agent to a googlebot or some other search bot
  108. # [19:14] <elux> at which point, you will get a different page
  109. # [19:14] <elux> that would be this: https://gist.github.com/pkieltyka/3cdfd0c7680394ea1c56
  110. # [19:15] <elux> this is curated content, and we're still working on letting users add more annotations / context, which i believe would be the real value google would be interested to index
  111. # [19:15] <@tantek> elux - what if a non-JS browser goes to the page like Lynx?
  112. # [19:15] <elux> tantek: we dont support lynx
  113. # [19:15] <elux> theyre not our market
  114. # [19:15] <@tantek> or for that matter - any accessibility / reading tools
  115. # [19:15] <elux> but, sure i could serve some basic static pages to those too oen day
  116. # [19:16] <elux> tantek: like what..?
  117. # [19:16] <@tantek> why not serve those by default the same thing you serve to googlebot?
  118. # [19:16] <elux> just saying, its a trade-off ... and so, in the earlier timeframe, we have forgone edge users like that
  119. # [19:16] <elux> tantek: yea thats a good point
  120. # [19:16] <@tantek> I don't have much experience making any angular or other JS-frontend pages work with google or semantic markup
  121. # [19:17] <elux> to be honest, my intention is to move from angularjs to reactjs, at which point server-side rendering of the same document becomes very easy
  122. # [19:17] <elux> well, to google, they just see the static page with the microformats like in the gist
  123. # [19:17] <@tantek> elux - and other search engines?
  124. # [19:17] <elux> those too
  125. # [19:17] <@tantek> do you maintain a list? seems like a pain.
  126. # [19:18] <elux> its a small regexp to capture most.. and we "Vary" when we need to serve jsut a static page
  127. # [19:18] <elux> i agree with all you're saying btw, which is why we will just render the same thing for everyone in a few months
  128. # [19:18] <elux> but this is what im working with now.. and either way, microformats would be sprinkled in the same way
  129. # [19:18] <@tantek> ok, just trying to understand, thanks for the explanation.
  130. # [19:18] <elux> of course :)
  131. # [19:19] <@tantek> glancing at the gist the microformats2 looks good
  132. # [19:19] <elux> im trying to figure out is google ready for microformats2 ..
  133. # [19:19] <elux> or should i be using schema.org
  134. # [19:19] <elux> which i hate
  135. # [19:19] <elux> :P
  136. # [19:19] <@tantek> here's another reason to make it easier to get the static markup - testing tools *other* than those you've hardcoded
  137. # [19:19] <@tantek> e.g. pin13.net
  138. # [19:20] <elux> right
  139. # [19:20] <@tantek> I mean http://pin13.net/mf2/ - where you can enter a URL and it shows you the microformats it found in JSON format
  140. # [19:20] <@tantek> is there anyway to use a query param on your site for that? e.g. ?static=1
  141. # [19:20] <elux> yea i get the parser stuff.. that is very smart in how it can build those hashes so easily
  142. # [19:20] <elux> yes of course
  143. # [19:20] <@tantek> that way it is easier to test with any tool
  144. # [19:21] <elux> for the super-short-term, i will just point those testing tools at: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/pkieltyka/3cdfd0c7680394ea1c56/raw/4b32553a5b5351b3ab0c61d2e9af7dc385aa6d5b/gistfile1.txt
  145. # [19:21] <elux> gist will give me the raw output.. all good
  146. # [19:21] <elux> http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgist.githubusercontent.com%2Fpkieltyka%2F3cdfd0c7680394ea1c56%2Fraw%2F4b32553a5b5351b3ab0c61d2e9af7dc385aa6d5b%2Fgistfile1.txt
  147. # [19:21] <@tantek> oh cool!
  148. # [19:21] <elux> nice. looks like this is working well
  149. # [19:22] <elux> perhaps shows some weird stuff too tho .. content: [ {html: "x": value:"x"} ]
  150. # [19:22] <elux> html and value are the same.. not sure if thats intended
  151. # [19:22] <@tantek> elux - not quite the same
  152. # [19:22] <@tantek> the "html" shows *all* the embedded markup
  153. # [19:22] <elux> understood..
  154. # [19:22] <elux> did i use the h-cite properly there..? to cite the source content
  155. # [19:23] <@tantek> which is useful for syndication / readers etc., e.g. if you embed photos in the content
  156. # [19:23] <elux> cool.. what about oembed-iframes?
  157. # [19:23] <elux> it would be nice to see oembed in microformats
  158. # [19:23] <elux> i think that is missing
  159. # [19:23] <elux> mf2.1 :)
  160. # [19:23] <@tantek> elux - oembed is limited to one "thing" per post
  161. # [19:23] <@tantek> so it doesn't make much sense in practice in display
  162. # [19:23] <@tantek> h-entry does have a propose u-featured property for a featured photo
  163. # [19:23] <elux> why cant you have multiple oembed's on a page?
  164. # [19:24] <@tantek> s/propose/proposed
  165. # [19:24] <Loqi> tantek meant to say: h-entry does have a proposed u-featured property for a featured photo
  166. # [19:24] <@tantek> elux - because oembed clients expect to use only one thing
  167. # [19:24] <@tantek> just a limitation of the expectations of oembed
  168. # [19:24] <elux> well, depends if its consumed or displayed
  169. # [19:24] <elux> if i understand correctly
  170. # [19:24] <elux> but, even single main "oembed" isn't bad
  171. # [19:24] <elux> like a featured photo
  172. # [19:24] <@tantek> with microformats, you don't need oembed - just use an <img> directly :)
  173. # [19:24] <@tantek> or <video> etc.
  174. # [19:25] <@tantek> plain HTML, less work than Oembed
  175. # [19:25] <elux> in the e-content ?
  176. # [19:25] <@tantek> right
  177. # [19:25] <elux> cool
  178. # [19:25] <elux> yea, i get it :) and i really enjoy it
  179. # [19:25] <elux> now... does google eat this stuff up yet? lol .. or one day
  180. # [19:25] <@tantek> then it will show-up in the parsed JSON in the "html"
  181. # [19:25] <@tantek> elux - we have some evidence that they're parsing h-entry but not necessarily showing it in validation tools
  182. # [19:26] <elux> also, is there a common <head meta tag people use to specify there are microformats on a page..? to make parsing the doc faster perhaps...? a check before putting it through a microformats parser
  183. # [19:26] <@tantek> for that reason, all microformats2 specs have back-compat vocabulary to use for "one main object" - which is all that Google cares about anyway - they don't do subobjects really
  184. # [19:26] <elux> tantek: yea i think so too.. i hope they get on it, becuase its so much better
  185. # [19:26] <elux> do you guys have contacts at google..? i know some guys i can ask / push
  186. # [19:26] <@tantek> no need for a <meta> tag because they can do a simple class name h-* test
  187. # [19:26] <elux> true.
  188. # [19:27] <elux> im amazed google isn't pushing this so hard..
  189. # [19:27] <elux> considering how important it is to their future
  190. # [19:27] <@tantek> the current best authoring guidance is to markup everything with microformats2 (which is the simplest/easiest/cleanest and most minimal), and then pick *one* object to use backward compat classic microformats one
  191. # [19:28] <elux> microformats 1 that is, for the *one* object?
  192. # [19:28] <@tantek> elux - it is very confusing on google's part - since schema is so much more complicated, and mdata/rdfa is so much noisier in the markup
  193. # [19:28] <@tantek> elux - correct
  194. # [19:28] <elux> gotcha
  195. # [19:28] <elux> i am gonna email some people i know in google to ask about this
  196. # [19:28] <@tantek> every microformats2 spec has a section for backcompat for the "one object"
  197. # [19:28] <@tantek> e.g. http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Publisher_Compatibility
  198. # [19:29] <@tantek> elux - definitely - there are fans of microformats2 inside google too
  199. # [19:29] <@tantek> I think they just need some more encouragement - and people publishing microformats2!
  200. # [19:29] <@tantek> I bet they're close
  201. # [19:29] <elux> yea
  202. # [19:29] <elux> nice
  203. # [19:29] <elux> thanks for all the advice
  204. # [19:29] <@tantek> take a quick look at http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Publisher_Compatibility and let me know if that makes sense and if you can extrapolate from that
  205. # [19:29] <@tantek> absolutely - love to help out real world use cases like yours
  206. # [19:29] <elux> so btw, i guess google is further along in parsing microformats 1, than 2..? which make sense
  207. # [19:30] <@tantek> we learn from real world experience and improve our docs accordingly
  208. # [19:30] <elux> thanks, yea this is a big help to us too
  209. # [19:30] <@tantek> right, google started parsing microformats1 long ago - as early as 2009 or earlier
  210. # [19:30] <@tantek> microformats2 didn't come out until 2010
  211. # [19:30] <elux> we're a curation / publishing platform, with annoations on making awesome bundles of content around topics
  212. # [19:30] <@tantek> and wasn't really finalized til 2011, with minor updates since then
  213. # [19:30] <elux> we want to add lots of semantics, since we do so much data normalization, we want all this searchable
  214. # [19:30] <@tantek> agreed- that makes a lot of sense
  215. # [19:30] <@tantek> unfortunately google only pays attention to "one main object" per page
  216. # [19:31] <@tantek> because of their limited rich snippets use-case
  217. # [19:31] <elux> so in mf2 .. the one main object is the h-entry / e-content ?
  218. # [19:31] <elux> and microformats1 .. its what?
  219. # [19:31] <@tantek> the "one main object" depends on what the page is about!
  220. # [19:31] <@tantek> in this case yes, it is usually whatever is your top level microformats2 object
  221. # [19:31] <@tantek> hence h-entry in this case
  222. # [19:31] <elux> right.. h-*
  223. # [19:31] <@tantek> hence I pointed you to http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Publisher_Compatibility
  224. # [19:32] <@tantek> to see if that makes sense
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  226. # [19:32] <elux> ah perfect!
  227. # [19:32] <elux> thanks
  228. # [19:32] <@tantek> it shows how to *add* classic microformats1 markup to *only* the top level one object
  229. # [19:32] <elux> thats perfect
  230. # [19:32] <@tantek> to keep the markup impact at a minimum
  231. # [19:32] <elux> thanks!
  232. # [19:32] <@tantek> we care a lot about developer/page efficiency
  233. # [19:32] <elux> of course.. the developer experience drives adoption
  234. # [19:36] <elux> thank you so much tantek!
  235. # [19:36] <@tantek> elux no problem at all
  236. # [19:36] <@tantek> you can keep testing your markup with the pin13.net parser
  237. # [19:37] <@tantek> and see that even with the dual microformats1 microformats2 markup for the one main / primary object it looks good
  238. # [19:37] <elux> cool
  239. # [19:37] <@tantek> so let's take care of that and then look at what you're doing with the nested h-cite object
  240. # [19:37] <elux> thats great
  241. # [19:37] <elux> right.. yea, i am trying to reference the "source url"
  242. # [19:37] <elux> how do i do that properly.. since the first h-* object feels to be like the main one
  243. # [19:37] <@tantek> is this like a bookmark post then? or a quotation post?
  244. # [19:38] <elux> both will be supported
  245. # [19:38] <@tantek> just trying to understand the meaning you intend
  246. # [19:38] <@tantek> in this post right now - what is the intended meaning
  247. # [19:38] <elux> well.. i want to "admit" to google, this article is curated from another source
  248. # [19:38] <elux> we are not trying to claim its original
  249. # [19:38] <@tantek> so its a repost?
  250. # [19:38] <@tantek> s/its/it's
  251. # [19:38] <Loqi> tantek meant to say: so it's a repost?
  252. # [19:39] <elux> and eventually say: but, this part here is original.. the curator's opinion on the piece of content
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  255. # [19:39] <@tantek> that sounds almost like a reply post then
  256. # [19:39] <elux> its a repost in a larger collection of content around the same topic,
  257. # [19:39] <elux> yes, its like a reply post
  258. # [19:39] <@tantek> a-ha in that case you want to use "p-in-reply-to h-cite" which will connect it in that fashion
  259. # [19:39] <elux> i also feel we add value to google by creating relationships around similar pieces of content .. so a destination for a lot of great content to be discovered around similar topics
  260. # [19:40] <elux> nice.. so both of those
  261. # [19:40] <@tantek> and be sure to <blockquote> anything quoted
  262. # [19:40] <elux> the entire featured image and content then..?
  263. # [19:41] <elux> and instead i suppose then
  264. # [19:41] <elux> the h-entry and e-content, would be the user's opinion/annoation/context that they add
  265. # [19:43] <@tantek> right - and thus should also have your p-author information too
  266. # [19:43] <@tantek> who did the curation/excerpt/added text
  267. # [19:43] * Joins: joskar (~joskar@joskar.ros.sgsnet.se)
  268. # [19:43] <@tantek> right now this example http://deloitte.pressly.com/exponential-technology/44468-googles-secretive-deepmind-startup-unveils-a-neural-turing-machine-mit-technology-review looks like a quotation post
  269. # [19:44] <elux> i see
  270. # [19:44] <elux> what kinds of "posts" are there..?
  271. # [19:46] <@tantek> elux - every kind we can find real world examples for :)
  272. # [19:46] <elux> right :)
  273. # [19:54] <@tantek> elux, and based on that, here's a short list that is growing http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Kinds_of_Posts
  274. # [19:59] <elux> nice, thanks
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  290. # [23:41] <Loqi> [@mhlyonspride] Do you send holiday cards? Use some of ours this year, and support a great cause with your purchase! http://mtholyoke.com/hcards.html (http://twtr.io/sfZYNb9ggL)
  291. # [23:47] * Quits: elux (~peter@206.223.191.50) (Quit: Bye!)
  292. # Session Close: Sat Nov 08 00:00:00 2014

The end :)