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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 22 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  30. # [08:05] <Loqi> [@ReviewsSatCom] 1 star #hughesnet-gen4 review: 8-2p.m.& 2-8a.m. BULL http://satellitecomplaints.com/hughesnet-gen4-internet-reviews/?wpcrp=1#hreview-763 Slow connection. Want allow but one device to connect at a timew (http://twtr.io/ycDYrpPkGo)
  31. # [08:05] <Loqi> [@ReviewsSatCom] 1 star #hughesnet-gen4 review: WORST Internet ever http://satellitecomplaints.com/hughesnet-gen4-internet-reviews/?wpcrp=1#hreview-762 This has to be the worst internet service on the planet. It's so s (http://twtr.io/ycDYxR0MFj)
  32. # [08:05] <Loqi> [@ReviewsSatCom] 1 star #exede review: Too expensive for little usage http://satellitecomplaints.com/exede-reviews/?wpcrp=1#hreview-760 my internet service through Excede started horribly on day 1. I (http://twtr.io/ycDZ2pbV_w)
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  72. # [17:42] <Loqi> [@ReviewsSatCom] 1 star #exede review: No service http://satellitecomplaints.com/exede-reviews/?wpcrp=1#hreview-764 Our service worked fine for the first 3 months and then our modem just stopped worki (http://twtr.io/yd5N0szh_g)
  73. # [17:42] <Loqi> [@ReviewsSatCom] 1 star #exede review: Poor Customer Support http://satellitecomplaints.com/exede-reviews/?wpcrp=1#hreview-757 I called "technical support" because I received a warning email, notifyin (http://twtr.io/yd5N6LWmtt)
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  100. # [19:47] <Loqi> [[alternates-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=alternates-brainstorming&diff=64908&oldid=36596&rcid=101284 * Tantek * (+131) put warning out of date
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  118. # [22:22] <KevinMarks> so, back to the rel parsing thing. It seems like we have 2 thinsg going on at the moment:
  119. # [22:22] <KevinMarks> raw rel-only parsing by default
  120. # [22:22] <KevinMarks> magic parsing for alternate
  121. # [22:23] <KevinMarks> so should I add magic parsing for the ones I am interested in at the moment (enclosure, tag, xfn rels)
  122. # [22:23] <KevinMarks> or should I add capture of the other metadata to the general case?
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  125. # [22:44] <KevinMarks> hm, another way to model this would be to add the extra attrs to URLs found in rel parsing
  126. # [22:44] <KevinMarks> so keep the rels to url mapping, but add a urls to extra properties mapping for the alternates etc
  127. # [22:54] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-brainstorming&diff=64909&oldid=64904&rcid=101285 * Kevin Marks * (+435) /* rel-tag */ alternative output idea
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  129. # [23:26] <@tantek> KevinMarks: why is alternates a problem?
  130. # [23:26] <KevinMarks> because the parsers as written look for known hard-coded values
  131. # [23:26] <KevinMarks> and so miss other values that can be there
  132. # [23:27] <@tantek> alternate has specific greater functionality than others per spec
  133. # [23:27] <@tantek> so that makes sense
  134. # [23:27] <@tantek> goal was to minimize the work and output needed for use-cases
  135. # [23:27] <KevinMarks> content not being parsed, title not being parsed etc
  136. # [23:27] <KevinMarks> so you would suggets adding magic parsed output for tag, xfn etc too?
  137. # [23:28] <@tantek> e.g. for XFN rel values, the point was that the destination should be used for the canonical name etc.
  138. # [23:28] <@tantek> not the linktext
  139. # [23:28] <@tantek> it was a way of avoiding having the consuming code assume too much
  140. # [23:28] <@tantek> rel=tag is different in that way, because the linktext is canonical
  141. # [23:30] <KevinMarks> rel=enclosure also has attrs, as does rel=alternate
  142. # [23:30] <KevinMarks> so 3 alternatives:
  143. # [23:30] <KevinMarks> 1. magic parsing for each special rel case like alternates now
  144. # [23:31] <KevinMarks> 2. replace the rels with a list of dicts not bare urls that preserve attrs
  145. # [23:31] <KevinMarks> 3. add a "urls" that has the extra attrs for the urls so you can look up in there if you care about the ones in rels
  146. # [23:32] <KevinMarks> 1 seems a bit mf1 and likely to cause a lot of extra code per parser
  147. # [23:32] <@tantek> indeed
  148. # [23:32] <KevinMarks> 2 would be simpler but break current users
  149. # [23:33] <KevinMarks> 3 may be a good compromise
  150. # [23:33] <KevinMarks> and would help stop rel="friend met crush" causing the data to explode
  151. # [23:33] <@tantek> in practice that hasn't been a problem
  152. # [23:34] <aaronpk> i haven't seen many occurrences of more than 2 rel values other than webmention and http://webmention.org/
  153. # [23:34] <gRegorLove> I like the sound of 3, though I'm not consuming this type of information currently, so it's just in theory for me.
  154. # [23:35] <KevinMarks> xfn is the one where we have many
  155. # [23:35] <KevinMarks> though that may be a declining use case
  156. # [23:35] <@tantek> the many aspect may be declining yes
  157. # [23:35] <@tantek> I think that data is just too invisible
  158. # [23:36] <kylewm> I think #2 would be fine with a semantic version increment
  159. # [23:36] <@tantek> I disagree because it makes the common case of rel for discovery take more steps
  160. # [23:36] <kylewm> and that seems like the better solution architecturally?
  161. # [23:36] <@tantek> that's the whole reason we designed it this way in the first place
  162. # [23:36] <kylewm> ah, ok
  163. # [23:36] <@tantek> nevermind architecture, it's the 90% use-case that matters
  164. # [23:36] <aaronpk> most of the rel values i'm consuming are rel=me and rel=webmention and rel=hub
  165. # [23:36] <@tantek> making it easy for
  166. # [23:36] <@tantek> right
  167. # [23:37] <@tantek> most rel consumptions are just give me the URL
  168. # [23:37] <aaronpk> and in all those cases, i already know what the other end is gonna do, so i just need the URL
  169. # [23:37] <@tantek> and doesn't care about collections of rels on a URL
  170. # [23:37] <KevinMarks> right
  171. # [23:37] <@tantek> I think that's the best use of rel
  172. # [23:37] <@tantek> and that's what we should encourage moving forward
  173. # [23:37] <KevinMarks> so adding "urls" for extra url info is a safer change
  174. # [23:37] <@tantek> the extra attributes on the <link> tend to be fragile / wrong
  175. # [23:37] <@tantek> because it requires the author to duplicate information from the server
  176. # [23:37] <aaronpk> alternates is what doesn't work right now, because all I see is a URL, but I need to know what type of alternat it is
  177. # [23:38] <@tantek> s/server/destination
  178. # [23:38] <Loqi> tantek meant to say: because it requires the author to duplicate information from the destination
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  180. # [23:38] <KevinMarks> and alternates has magic values code now
  181. # [23:38] <aaronpk> the "type" attribute on the rel=alternate disappears in mf2 parsing right now
  182. # [23:38] <@tantek> that's a bug
  183. # [23:38] <@tantek> parser says it should go through
  184. # [23:38] <aaronpk> what's it supposed to look like?
  185. # [23:38] <@tantek> "type": the value of the "type" attribute
  186. # [23:39] <@tantek> from http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parse_a_hyperlink_element_for_rel_microformats
  187. # [23:39] <KevinMarks> python parser preserves type
  188. # [23:39] <@tantek> second to last step, right before last end if
  189. # [23:39] <aaronpk> oh yeah and hreflang would be useful too
  190. # [23:39] <@tantek> right, precisely the attributes that matter are specified, and nothing more
  191. # [23:40] <@tantek> it's a deliberate minimialist scoping of the feature
  192. # [23:40] <@tantek> s/minimialist/minimalist
  193. # [23:40] <Loqi> tantek meant to say: it's a deliberate minimalist scoping of the feature
  194. # [23:40] <aaronpk> but that's counter to how the rest of the mf2 parsing works, which is purely structural rather than semantic
  195. # [23:40] <KevinMarks> except that leads to hard-coded implementation
  196. # [23:40] <@tantek> we're not adding attributes
  197. # [23:40] <@tantek> the number and names of attributes on <link> are static and fixed in HTML5
  198. # [23:41] <@tantek> and <a> / <area> for that matter
  199. # [23:41] <aaronpk> i'd rather it worked more like h-entry, where the mf2 parser doesn't care about what the property names are
  200. # [23:41] <@tantek> if no one is using the "alternates" array, I'm ok with dropping it frankly
  201. # [23:41] <aaronpk> that's why mf2 all of a sudden became way easier to use
  202. # [23:42] <@tantek> only because we're growing mf2 vocabs
  203. # [23:42] <@tantek> we're not growing html5 vocabs (elements and attributes)
  204. # [23:42] <@tantek> and frankly I think generalizing that would lead to bad behavior
  205. # [23:42] <@tantek> people starting to use "data-*" attributes for data exchange across implementations - which is forbidden by HTML5
  206. # [23:43] <KevinMarks> so, you're arguing for 1 in my alternatives?
  207. # [23:43] <KevinMarks> add special cases for rel-based mf's we need?
  208. # [23:43] <@tantek> I'm giving you the background for design considerations
  209. # [23:43] <@tantek> no need to generalize a static fixed set of things (names of HTML5 attributes)
  210. # [23:44] <@tantek> may need to generalize a variable set of things (rel values)
  211. # [23:44] <KevinMarks> the "name" of a rel is useful too
  212. # [23:44] <@tantek> wat
  213. # [23:44] <aaronpk> what is the name of a rel?
  214. # [23:45] <kylewm> e.g.
  215. # [23:45] <kylewm> <a rel="author" href="http://example.com/b">author b</a>
  216. # [23:45] <kylewm> name = "author b"
  217. # [23:45] <KevinMarks> yes
  218. # [23:45] <KevinMarks> for XFN
  219. # [23:45] <@tantek> that's a horrible overloading of "name"
  220. # [23:45] <KevinMarks> no it isn't
  221. # [23:45] <@tantek> it's just the text
  222. # [23:45] <@tantek> don't ascribe any more semantics to it - because you can't
  223. # [23:45] <KevinMarks> it's a natural extension of implied name
  224. # [23:46] <KevinMarks> you want it for alternate, for xfn and for tag
  225. # [23:46] <@tantek> it's not because it's used differently in all three
  226. # [23:46] <@tantek> alternate - the inner text is ignored (or non-existent, e.g. on <link>)
  227. # [23:47] <@tantek> xfn - the inner text is *informative* name of the person
  228. # [23:47] <@tantek> tag - the inner text is the *canonical* tag label from the author
  229. # [23:47] <@tantek> the semantics are completely different
  230. # [23:47] <@tantek> hence bad to generalize on that, certainly bad to call it a "name"
  231. # [23:48] <@KevinMarks__> Alternate the link name is the title attr
  232. # [23:48] * Joins: dariusdunlap (~dariusdun@ip-69-27-182-58.coastside.net)
  233. # [23:48] <@tantek> that's my point - I'd rather a parser not be smart and just hand back the attributes
  234. # [23:49] <@tantek> rather than have it attempt to infer where the "name" comes from
  235. # [23:49] <@tantek> better to have "title" if there is a title attribute
  236. # [23:49] <@tantek> and "text" if there is any inner text in the element (no markup)
  237. # [23:49] <@KevinMarks__> That was my #2 suggestion
  238. # [23:49] <@tantek> and then let the consuming code decide what to do with them
  239. # [23:49] <@tantek> no your suggestions mix many things
  240. # [23:49] <@tantek> which is ok, but it's imprecise to say "that was my #n"
  241. # [23:50] <@KevinMarks__> You just argued that we should not take all attrs
  242. # [23:50] <@tantek> no
  243. # [23:50] * Quits: KevinMarks (~KevinMark@172.56.16.224) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  244. # [23:51] <@tantek> there is the explicit list attrs in the HTML5 spec
  245. # [23:51] <@tantek> and then there is the potential list of attrs that an author can put on an element
  246. # [23:51] <@tantek> they are two different "all attrs"
  247. # [23:51] <@tantek> and yes, I think it's been useful to only add attrs as needed for use-cases from the HTML5 spec for link
  248. # [23:52] <@tantek> rather than get all of them https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/link#Attributes
  249. # [23:53] <@tantek> because that just gunks up the parsed result with stuff that no one has a use-case for
  250. # [23:53] <@tantek> the desire to keep the parsed result minimal / friendly / useful
  251. # [23:53] <@KevinMarks__> I am adding these because I have use cases
  252. # [23:54] <aaronpk> lol at the little trash can next to "rev" on that page: "Also this attribute doesn't mean revision and must not be used with a version number, which is unfortunately the case on numerous sites."
  253. # [23:54] <@KevinMarks__> The "name" is useful
  254. # [23:54] <@tantek> KevinMarks I think you need to document your use-cases more explicitly
  255. # [23:54] <aaronpk> oh another one that is actually used is "sizes"
  256. # [23:54] <@tantek> the enclosure one I get - for podcasting
  257. # [23:55] <aaronpk> for rel=icon
  258. # [23:55] <@tantek> this is not about whether people publish them or not
  259. # [23:55] * Quits: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@nat-tvwna-outside-visitornet2-a-95.princeton.org) (Quit: Leaving.)
  260. # [23:55] <@tantek> this is about is there a *use-case* for when you would use an mf2 parser to get this data about a page to then do something for the user
  261. # [23:55] <@tantek> e.g. IndieAuth -> rel=me
  262. # [23:55] <@tantek> Podcasting -> rel=enclosure
  263. # [23:55] <@tantek> I kept alternate only for feed discovery
  264. # [23:56] <aaronpk> monocle and woodwind both consume alternate right now
  265. # [23:56] <@tantek> and do you check the "type"?
  266. # [23:56] <aaronpk> i can't cause the php parser doesn't return it, so i just assume rss right now
  267. # [23:56] <@tantek> aaronpk - are you using the mf2 parser to get the alternates?
  268. # [23:56] <@tantek> lack of "type" is a big - that's already in the existing mf2 spec
  269. # [23:56] * Quits: Soopaman (~soopaman@67.55.51.56) (Quit: Leaving.)
  270. # [23:57] <@tantek> please file that as an issue on phpmf2
  271. # [23:57] <aaronpk> just did
  272. # [23:57] <@tantek> s/big/bug
  273. # [23:57] <aaronpk> the lack of the parser giving me type (plus i was in a hurry) is the reason monocle only supports microformat feeds right now
  274. # [23:57] <@tantek> but I want to pushback on *both* any sense of "just add all the attribute" or any sense of replicating an HTML DOM
  275. # [23:57] <@tantek> aaronpk - but that's a parser bug, not a spec bug
  276. # [23:57] <aaronpk> i show it, but grey it out http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/monocle-feed-discovery-20150422-145956.png
  277. # [23:57] <aaronpk> right
  278. # [23:57] <@tantek> and does not justify any spec changes
  279. # [23:58] <aaronpk> well that'll be nice to have fixed
  280. # [23:59] <kylewm> tantek: woodwind doesn't use mf2 for the rel=alternate parsing, probably just because i didn't think to
  281. # [23:59] <@tantek> kylewm: it would be interesting to see if you could, and then find any holes
  282. # [23:59] <aaronpk> so what about "sizes"? that seems like it should be added to the parsed result too
  283. # [23:59] <@tantek> why?
  284. # [23:59] <@tantek> what's the use-case?
  285. # [23:59] <aaronpk> since literally millions of phones consume it
  286. # Session Close: Thu Apr 23 00:00:00 2015

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