/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2015-05-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 29 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:38] * Quits: @KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@2607:fb90:54b:2e2c:3651:a33b:e466:7aa8) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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  6. # [00:53] <Loqi> [@AllTheTwits] wondering is *everybody's* sick these days? Also doing some writing re: microformats. Bed is calling. (http://twtr.io/zwQREw_SCG)
  7. # [00:55] <@tantek> odd - couldn't find the original for that
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  12. # [01:37] <kylewm> https://twitter.com/natekoechley/status/516433
  13. # [01:37] <Loqi> [@natekoechley] wondering is *everybody's* sick these days? Also doing some writing re: microformats. Bed is calling. (http://twtr.io/2PTD)
  14. # [01:47] <Loqi> [@Furuko51] WordPressの構造化データ(http://microformats.org hAtom)マークアップ | Root-013 https://gunosy.com/g/RITAI (http://twtr.io/zwVJLvHUY0)
  15. # [01:48] <@tantek> good finding kylewm - Twitter search didn't work for me for that
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  41. # [06:13] <@tantek> KevinMarks: working on adding your rel-urls hash to microformats2-parsing
  42. # [06:13] <@tantek> in case you're up and want to review later
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  44. # [06:32] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=64990&oldid=64955&rcid=101367 * Tantek * (+260) [[microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#more_information_for_alternates]] part 1, add rel-urls key, update parsed rels example
  45. # [06:37] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-brainstorming&diff=64991&oldid=64971&rcid=101368 * Tantek * (+196) note changed opinion from textContent to text
  46. # [06:43] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=64992&oldid=64990&rcid=101369 * Tantek * (+79) [[microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#more_information_for_alternates]] completed, pt 1 [[microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#more_information_for_rel-based_formats]] add rel-urls key, update rels ex.
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  48. # [06:48] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-brainstorming&diff=64993&oldid=64991&rcid=101370 * Tantek * (+32) more information for alternates - incorporated
  49. # [06:51] * Quits: @KevinMarks (~yaaic@172.56.31.51) (Remote host closed the connection)
  50. # [07:03] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=64994&oldid=64992&rcid=101371 * Tantek * (+487) /* parse a hyperlink element for rel microformats */ part 2 [[microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#more_information_for_rel-based_formats]] rel parsing algorithm additions
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  52. # [07:06] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-brainstorming&diff=64995&oldid=64993&rcid=101372 * Tantek * (+56) incorporated more information for rel-based formats
  53. # [07:09] <@tantek> KevinMarks - microformats2 rel parsing and example updated per your proposal (and I AFAIK implementation) - please review: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parse_a_hyperlink_element_for_rel_microformats
  54. # [07:14] <@tantek> !tell kylewm did you have a chance to try implementing this in mf2py? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#Nested_h-.2A_objects.27_.22value.22_property I want to incorporate it into microformats2-parsing but double-check implementability first.
  55. # [07:14] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
  56. # [07:15] <@tantek> !tell aaronpk did you have a chance to try implementing this in phpmf2 http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#Add_meta_http-equiv_to_microformats2_parsing_model ?
  57. # [07:15] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
  58. # [07:16] <kylewm> tantek: I haven't yet but will do
  59. # [07:16] <Loqi> kylewm: tantek left you a message 2 minutes ago: did you have a chance to try implementing this in mf2py? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#Nested_h-.2A_objects.27_.22value.22_property I want to incorporate it into microformats2-parsing but double-check implementability first.
  60. # [07:18] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-brainstorming&diff=64996&oldid=64995&rcid=101373 * Tantek * (+191) note status for a few issues
  61. # [07:18] <@tantek> thanks kylewm
  62. # [07:18] <@tantek> while you're in there, take a look at http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#Canonicalization_of_datetime_output also to see what if any changes you need to make to mf2py for that
  63. # [07:21] <@tantek> kylewm: and it looks like most of the resolved issues could use your implementation experience too, e.g. http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#uf2_children_inside_a_classic_microformats_root_class_name
  64. # [07:21] <@tantek> I'll see if I can explicitly note the ones that need it (resolved, need implementation experience)
  65. # [07:25] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-issues&diff=64997&oldid=64989&rcid=101374 * Tantek * (+384) add status and need implementation experience for a few
  66. # [07:26] <@tantek> ok noted
  67. # [07:26] <@tantek> having KevinMarks try implementing his proposals to make sure they did what he needed for his use-cases was very handy
  68. # [07:27] <@tantek> that kind of implementation checking of resolutions something we should continue with - and it will also help show the priority of brainstorms/issues - if people are willing to try implementing the resolutions.
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  74. # [07:51] <kylewm> tantek: sanity check -- is "value" meant to be inside or outside of "properties": {}
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  77. # [07:53] <kylewm> nm got it, outside. i need to fix that example to reflect that
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  79. # [08:00] <kylewm> !tell tantek I implemented the "name" for p-* h-* and "url" for u-* h-* pretty trivially... supporting the second part (first dt-* or first e-*) would require some refactoring https://github.com/kylewm/mf2py/commit/63cd5882f53d8972c2b007fec93bf893c92acd1b
  80. # [08:00] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
  81. # [08:02] <@tantek> cool - thanks for fixing example
  82. # [08:02] <Loqi> tantek: kylewm left you a message 2 minutes ago: I implemented the "name" for p-* h-* and "url" for u-* h-* pretty trivially... supporting the second part (first dt-* or first e-*) would require some refactoring https://github.com/kylewm/mf2py/commit/63cd5882f53d8972c2b007fec93bf893c92acd1b
  83. # [08:04] <@tantek> kylewm - we came up with the second part (for dt-* and e-*) so we at least had an idea what those *should* do
  84. # [08:04] <@tantek> however, I don't think we have any actual use-cases for them
  85. # [08:04] <@tantek> that is, for "dt-* h-*" markup or "e-* h-*" markup - do you know of any?
  86. # [08:05] <@tantek> perhaps we should have those fallback to "p-* h-*" treatment until there's a use-case for doing otherwise
  87. # [08:05] <@tantek> I'd rather avoid extra work for something without use-cases
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  90. # [08:16] <@tantek> Loqi?
  91. # [08:16] <Loqi> woot!
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  93. # [08:29] <@tantek> !tell kylewm commented: http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-brainstorming&diff=64999&oldid=64998 - if that sounds good to you, please +1 it. And we'll see what tommorris, glennjones and other parser devs think.
  94. # [08:29] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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  99. # [08:44] <@tantek> !tell aaronpk looks like Loqi stopped reporting wiki edits to this channel sometime after ~2015-10-28 22:30 PDT - compare IRC logs to http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges
  100. # [08:44] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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  107. # [11:06] <glennjones> For parser developers I have added a “textContent browser test” http://testrunner-47055.onmodulus.net/textcontent/ to use as a comparsion parsers output
  108. # [11:09] <glennjones> !tell kylewm looked into textContent output issue from yesterday and your parse is correct and the test is wrong. I will go through the tests this morning correcting any other textContent errors I can find
  109. # [11:09] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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  126. # [14:26] <Loqi> [@AllTheTwits] is proof-reading microformats book (http://twtr.io/zxcWvtx0eV)
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  134. # [15:53] <Loqi> [@seldo2] Recipes are one of those use-cases where stuff like microformats seem to have really clear value. #jsconf (http://twtr.io/zxkPu0Px_w)
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  136. # [16:54] <aaronpk> hmm
  137. # [16:54] <Loqi> aaronpk: tantek left you a message 9 hours, 39 minutes ago: did you have a chance to try implementing this in phpmf2 http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#Add_meta_http-equiv_to_microformats2_parsing_model ?
  138. # [16:54] <Loqi> aaronpk: tantek left you a message 8 hours, 10 minutes ago: looks like Loqi stopped reporting wiki edits to this channel sometime after ~2015-10-28 22:30 PDT - compare IRC logs to http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges
  139. # [16:59] <aaronpk> !tell tantek I've never touched the PHP parser internals... most I've done is added relative URL resolving
  140. # [16:59] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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  153. # [19:49] <Loqi> [@deewu] FD #2: I am way over my head. I don't code, have super basic HTML skills. Microformats what? I don't mind learning, it's just a lot. (http://twtr.io/zy6ZR3sefo)
  154. # [20:07] <@tantek> good morning #microformats!
  155. # [20:07] <Loqi> tantek: aaronpk left you a message 3 hours, 7 minutes ago: I've never touched the PHP parser internals... most I've done is added relative URL resolving
  156. # [20:07] <@tantek> how goes the parsing issues / brainstorming discussions?
  157. # [20:44] <kylewm> o/
  158. # [20:44] <Loqi> kylewm: tantek left you a message 12 hours, 15 minutes ago: commented: http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-brainstorming&diff=64999&oldid=64998 - if that sounds good to you, please +1 it. And we'll see what tommorris, glennjones and other parser devs think.
  159. # [20:44] <Loqi> kylewm: glennjones left you a message 9 hours, 35 minutes ago: looked into textContent output issue from yesterday and your parse is correct and the test is wrong. I will go through the tests this morning correcting any other textContent errors I can find
  160. # [20:46] <kylewm> hi tantek, two things. I was doing some/most of the timezone normalization in mf2py, which caused lots of test suite failures, so i rolled it back for now. but it is very easy to add back in. i'd be interested in how easy or difficult it is for other parsers to change. in mf2py at least we had to do a lot of machinations to get dates to parse correctly at all, by far the trickiest part of the spec
  161. # [20:47] <@tantek> wait what that's a different issue
  162. # [20:47] <kylewm> 2; totally agree with rationale to wait for use cases of e-* h-* and dt-* h-*, but why fallback to p-* h-* instead of the old behavior
  163. # [20:47] <@tantek> yeah you're right
  164. # [20:48] <@tantek> old behavior for e-*/dt-* h-* makes more sense
  165. # [20:48] <kylewm> oh cool that was easy :)
  166. # [20:48] <@tantek> and especially for e-* - that's likely close to what's desired
  167. # [21:35] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-brainstorming&diff=65000&oldid=64999&rcid=101377 * Tantek * (+248) provide details of updated proposal, e-* h-* behaves as before, dt-* h-* just normal dt-* parsing
  168. # [21:36] <@tantek> kylewm: please review ^^^
  169. # [21:42] <kylewm> tantek: not sure which indentation level I should have +1'ed
  170. # [21:44] <@tantek> not sure why wiki edits are not showing through
  171. # [21:44] <@tantek> sometimes
  172. # [21:44] <aaronpk> oh yeah i was going to mention that, everything looks fine on my end
  173. # [21:45] * @tantek checks the logs
  174. # [21:45] <@tantek> yup - logs agree with what I see
  175. # [21:46] <aaronpk> it is a UDP packet from the microformats.org server to Loqi
  176. # [21:46] <aaronpk> so it is entirely possibly that it just gets dropped sometimes
  177. # [21:46] <@tantek> aaronpk - so Loqi is not seeing the packet?
  178. # [21:46] <aaronpk> I assume not, if it's not showing up her
  179. # [21:46] <aaronpk> e
  180. # [21:46] <@tantek> or are you seeing the edits from Loqi and we're not?
  181. # [21:47] <aaronpk> I don't have a lot of visibility other than what shows up in IRC
  182. # [21:51] <@tantek> ok got it
  183. # [21:51] <@tantek> kylewm: then we're in agreement - does your implementation agree also?
  184. # [21:52] <@tantek> KevinMarks: do you want to weigh-in on this? either "sounds good" "meh" or "no" ?
  185. # [21:53] <@tantek> this summary in particular: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming##Update%202015-05-29
  186. # [21:54] <kylewm> yep, that's what my implementation does... not merged yet, but branch is here https://github.com/kylewm/mf2py/tree/nested-value
  187. # [21:54] <@tantek> I like this way of doing change control to microformats2 parsing
  188. # [21:54] * aaronpk is scared
  189. # [21:55] <aaronpk> can someone add test cases for whatever is being changed and I can go poke at the PHP parser to update it?
  190. # [21:55] <@tantek> where 1) collect issues/brainstorms/proposals, 2) let people try implementing on their own incentive, 3) when there is consensus on a proposal AND proof of implementability, accept proposal
  191. # [21:55] <aaronpk> i haven't really been following
  192. # [21:56] <@tantek> s/proof/proof & incentive for
  193. # [21:56] <Loqi> tantek meant to say: where 1) collect issues/brainstorms/proposals, 2) let people try implementing on their own incentive, 3) when there is consensus on a proposal AND proof & incentive for of implementability, accept proposal
  194. # [21:56] <@tantek> aaronpk - I believe KevinMarks added test cases for the "rel-urls" change
  195. # [21:57] <@tantek> kylewm, Nested h-* objects' "value" property was your proposal - presumably you can make or have test cases that verify your implementation of it?
  196. # [21:58] <kylewm> yep, I'd be happy to
  197. # [21:58] <kylewm> I added one to mf2py's tests (copy/pasted from the wiki), will build out a more thorough test for microformats/tests
  198. # [21:59] <@tantek> also - what do you think of the 1,2,3 steps above for making changes/updates to microformats2-parsing ?
  199. # [21:59] <@tantek> (need to add use-case documentation in there somewhere - perhaps proposed resolutions that add things MUST document use-cases for each thing added?)
  200. # [21:59] * Quits: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@108-69-72-147.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  201. # [22:10] <KevinMarks> no rel-urls tests in the shared test repository only in mf2py now
  202. # [22:16] <kylewm> the problem is rel-urls affects *every* test case
  203. # [22:17] <kylewm> makes it hard to add to the test suite
  204. # [22:17] * Joins: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@108-69-72-147.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net)
  205. # [22:21] <@tantek> should we make the rel-urls collection create on first rel?
  206. # [22:21] <@tantek> as opposed to always there?
  207. # [22:21] <@tantek> e.g. "rels" is always there
  208. # [22:22] <@tantek> but "alternates" is create on first rel=alternate
  209. # [22:22] <@tantek> or does it not matter in practice because (nearly?) all pages have rel=stylesheet
  210. # [22:25] <KevinMarks> i think always there is clearer
  211. # [22:26] <@tantek> ok that's the way I added it to the spec so we're fine
  212. # [22:28] <KevinMarks> I was testing with the tests repository by deleting rel-urls from mf2py's output
  213. # [22:29] * Quits: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@108-69-72-147.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  214. # [22:30] <KevinMarks> any further thoughts on the whitespace collapsing for implied name?
  215. # [22:30] <KevinMarks> aaronpk, kylewm have you looked at this form a consumer point of view
  216. # [22:32] <@tantek> KevinMarks - I'd say for more thoughts on that you have to look at what X2V does
  217. # [22:32] <@tantek> because that code contains years of collective experience / wisdom about in practice whitespace collapsing of microformats properties
  218. # [22:32] <Loqi> [@devseo] Reviews: Author HReview Plugin - http://graywolfseo.com/reviews/author-hreview-plugin/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Wolf-howl+%28Graywolfs+SEO+Blog%29 (http://twtr.io/zyMF4KH1Wf)
  219. # [22:32] <@tantek> (and may very well justify your opinions on the matter)
  220. # [22:33] <aaronpk> i have only found implied name useful for the minimal h-card example
  221. # [22:33] <kylewm> "this from a consumer point of view"? the this refers to whitespace collapsing?
  222. # [22:33] <@tantek> it's useful for minimal things of any kind. events, venues, products
  223. # [22:33] <aaronpk> pretty sure every other time i've seen the implied name property, it always has extra junk in it
  224. # [22:33] <@tantek> citations too
  225. # [22:34] <aaronpk> either extra whitespace, or text that really shouldn't be in it
  226. # [22:35] <aaronpk> i'm not saying it isn't useful, just that you have to be very deliberate about creating HTML to output a useful implied name
  227. # [22:35] <@tantek> I'm not sure about that
  228. # [22:35] <@tantek> I'd like to see examples we can reason from
  229. # [22:35] <aaronpk> i'm sure i can dig some up
  230. # [22:35] <aaronpk> lots of badly formatted comments on my site
  231. # [22:35] <@tantek> as the implied p-name behavior was modeled after simple hyperlinking of proper names in HTML
  232. # [22:36] <@tantek> which happens all the time in web pages
  233. # [22:36] <aaronpk> i know, it works fine for the simple case
  234. # [22:36] <@tantek> aaronpk - we've discussed the h-entry exception for this before
  235. # [22:36] <@tantek> that's a known problem case
  236. # [22:37] <aaronpk> i guess i don't have any input on changes to whitespace collapsing until that is fixed and i've had a chance to play with it
  237. # [22:37] <KevinMarks> you get the same problem with events and locations too
  238. # [22:38] <@tantek> aaronpk: fixing "that" may be a matter of comment display for IWC - not necessarily a p-name problem
  239. # [22:47] * Joins: warehouse13 (~Left_Turn@unaffiliated/turn-left/x-3739067)
  240. # [22:48] * Joins: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@108-69-72-147.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net)
  241. # [22:50] * Quits: Left_Turn (~Left_Turn@unaffiliated/turn-left/x-3739067) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  242. # [23:02] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  243. # [23:11] * Quits: eschnou (~eschnou@140.164-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  244. # [23:52] * Quits: @KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection refused)
  245. # [23:56] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  246. # [23:56] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks_
  247. # Session Close: Sat May 30 00:00:00 2015

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