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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 02 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:04] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-brainstorming&diff=65018&oldid=65012&rcid=101395 * Tantek * (+1020) /* feedback on more rel info */ follow-up on glennjones questions
  4. # [00:05] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-brainstorming&diff=65019&oldid=65018&rcid=101396 * Tantek * (+98) for issues, use -issues
  5. # [00:06] <@tantek> KevinMarks while I have you here, do you have any opinion on the updated resolution to the nested h-* object value property brainstorm? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#Nested_h-.2A_objects.27_.22value.22_property
  6. # [00:07] <@tantek> see http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming##Update%202015-05-29 in particular
  7. # [00:07] * Joins: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@108-69-72-147.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net)
  8. # [00:07] <KevinMarks> lots to read there
  9. # [00:09] <@tantek> KevinMarks: no no - you're familiar with this - just check the fragmention I pasted ^^
  10. # [00:09] <KevinMarks> I meant the previous changes
  11. # [00:09] <@tantek> which previous changes?
  12. # [00:10] <KevinMarks> the parsing ones - i'd stepped away
  13. # [00:10] <@tantek> for the rels stuff I just added warnings where the algorithm will change
  14. # [00:10] <@tantek> no actual change to the algorithm yet
  15. # [00:11] <KevinMarks> you should add the 'alternate' key to rels though
  16. # [00:11] <Loqi> yea
  17. # [00:11] <KevinMarks> as currently you can't look them up with that algorithm
  18. # [00:16] <KevinMarks> you'd want the rels for teh exmaple to be "rels": { "author": [ "http://example.com/a", "http://example.com/b" ], "in-reply-to": [ "http://example.com/1", "http://example.com/2" ],"alternate":["http://example.com/fr"] },
  19. # [00:18] <KevinMarks> that nested h-object issue looks good, and the implied name rule means that the value will match the name rule fro whitespace, whatever the resolution, which is good as that was a point of contention
  20. # [00:18] <KevinMarks> as the value's also get newline cruft at the moment
  21. # [00:19] <@tantek> ah right of course add 'alternate' key
  22. # [00:20] * Quits: benborges (~benborges@2a02:a03f:1658:6c00:227:10ff:fe6c:180) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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  24. # [00:26] <KevinMarks> which makes the code simpler
  25. # [00:27] <@tantek> yes
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  29. # [00:43] <KevinMarks> should I make that edit?
  30. # [00:45] <@tantek> nope - adding the whole alternates removal thing as an issue
  31. # [00:46] <KevinMarks> as written the pesudocode is inconsistent between rels and rel-urls
  32. # [00:46] <@tantek> no - as written rel-urls is complete, and adding to rels is a separate issue
  33. # [00:47] <@tantek> will add a note about the alternates in the list
  34. # [00:47] * Quits: elf-pavlik (~elf-pavli@lorea/elf) (Quit: Leaving)
  35. # [00:49] <@tantek> nope, double-checked and existing warnings about pending changes cover the case of including "alternate" in rels
  36. # [00:49] <@tantek> because it's not special-cased anymore, it gets added along with everything else
  37. # [00:49] <@tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parse_a_hyperlink_element_for_rel_microformats is fine with existing warning notes
  38. # [00:51] <KevinMarks> no it isn't
  39. # [00:51] <KevinMarks> you can't use alternate in rel-urls
  40. # [00:52] * gRegorLove tries to catch up on the rel-urls/alternates stuff
  41. # [00:52] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=65020&oldid=65017&rcid=101397 * Kevin Marks * (+89) /* rel parse examples */ put alternate keys in rels to match rel-urls
  42. # [00:53] <KevinMarks> to use alternate you need the keys I just added to the example
  43. # [00:53] <KevinMarks> which emans we should drop the conditional now
  44. # [00:55] <@tantek> you do not need that KevinMarks - you can simply iterate through rel-urls
  45. # [00:55] * aaronpk can't keep up, wake me when it's over
  46. # [00:55] <Loqi> aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 24 minutes ago: does your indie reader use mf2 parsing to look for alternates?
  47. # [00:56] <@tantek> KevinMarks: but you're right that the example had that omission - will add that in a warning note
  48. # [00:56] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=65021&oldid=65020&rcid=101398 * Kevin Marks * (-96) /* parse a hyperlink element for rel microformats */ simplify so alternate is consistent
  49. # [00:56] <@tantek> kevinmarks please stop - trying to get broader discussion before actually making the changes to the spec
  50. # [00:57] <@tantek> that's the point of putting in the warnings first
  51. # [00:57] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=65022&oldid=65021&rcid=101399 * Tantek * (+7) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Kevin Marks|Kevin Marks]] ([[User talk:Kevin Marks|Talk]]) to last version by [[User:Tantek|Tantek]]
  52. # [00:57] <KevinMarks> it makes no sense to iterate the rel-urls looking for the alternates
  53. # [00:57] <KevinMarks> that is worse than what we have
  54. # [00:57] <@tantek> no, implementations were already doing that
  55. # [00:57] <KevinMarks> no they weren't
  56. # [00:58] <gRegorLove> kylewm said Woodwind looks in both rel + rel-urls
  57. # [00:59] <KevinMarks> so http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&oldid=65021 is my suggestion
  58. # [01:00] <KevinMarks> (I wasn't tryign to have an edit war, but to have something to point to
  59. # [01:00] <@tantek> you can point to the warnings in the text
  60. # [01:00] <@tantek> and yes that's why I was writing up an issue
  61. # [01:00] <@tantek> since it's a *change* to how things are spec and implemented
  62. # [01:00] <@tantek> instead of just "changing the spec"
  63. # [01:00] <KevinMarks> the way you specced rel-urls was inconsistent
  64. # [01:01] <@tantek> no I spec'd it to be complete
  65. # [01:01] <@tantek> it actually *does* work as spec'd. and yes there can be improvements. hence another issue.
  66. # [01:02] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=65023&oldid=65022&rcid=101400 * Tantek * (+271) note updated rels collection in parsed output assuming we drop "alternates", remove barnabywalter's out of date gist (spec has evolved since)
  67. # [01:02] <@tantek> thanks for pointing out that the example did not document the change that would occur
  68. # [01:02] <@tantek> I believe I just recaptured that in that edit
  69. # [01:03] <KevinMarks> have rels and rel-urls be parallel is key. Your spec text puts them in an inconsistent stare
  70. # [01:03] <KevinMarks> s/stare/state/
  71. # [01:03] <Loqi> KevinMarks meant to say: have rels and rel-urls be parallel is key. Your spec text puts them in an inconsistent state
  72. # [01:04] <@tantek> having rels expanded is better, but it's not "key"
  73. # [01:04] <KevinMarks> which requires the workaround fo walking the rel-urls again checking their rels
  74. # [01:05] <KevinMarks> my implrmentation omits the alternate fromt he rel-uls to presevre this consistency: http://www.unmung.com/?html=%3Ca+rel%3D%22author%22+href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2Fa%22%3Eauthor+a%3C%2Fa%3E%0D%0A%3Ca+rel%3D%22author%22+href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2Fb%22%3Eauthor+b%3C%2Fa%3E%0D%0A%3Ca+rel%3D%22in-reply-to%22+href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2F1%22%3Epost+1%3C%2Fa%3E%0D%0A%3Ca+rel%3D%22in-reply-to%22+href%3D
  75. # [01:06] <KevinMarks> that's this algorithm http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&oldid=65014#parse_a_hyperlink_element_for_rel_microformats
  76. # [01:07] <@tantek> KevinMarks: not as documented in the brainstorm which we discussed and agreed, which includes alternates in rel-urls
  77. # [01:07] <@tantek> so that's what's spec'd since that's what we agreed on: microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#more_information_for_rel-based_formats
  78. # [01:07] * Quits: fuzzyhorns (~fuzzyhorn@73.38.57.191) (Remote host closed the connection)
  79. # [01:08] <KevinMarks> hm, my "This generalises to other rel's too, such as rel-feed and rel-alternate that have type, lang etc attributes." was ambiguous there
  80. # [01:08] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-issues&diff=65024&oldid=64997&rcid=101401 * Tantek * (+491) drop alternates collection and include them in rels
  81. # [01:09] <@tantek> KevinMarks_: not ambiguous at all - by explicitly listing rel-alternate in that sentence the intent of inclusion in rel-urls was very clear
  82. # [01:09] <KevinMarks> but I in no way thought that the rels and rel-urls would not match
  83. # [01:09] <KevinMarks> your omitting them from rels is the point of difference
  84. # [01:09] <@tantek> anyway, comment / +1 etc. here now: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#drop_alternates_collection_and_include_them_in_rels
  85. # [01:10] <@tantek> that wasnt in your brainstorm so no
  86. # [01:10] <@tantek> I was doing quite literal brainstorm application
  87. # [01:10] <@tantek> since we discussed and agreed on what was documente
  88. # [01:10] <@tantek> d
  89. # [01:11] <KevinMarks> you're saying that your theoretical implementation of an ambiguous brainstorm trumps my actual implmentation of it, that is lined to from it?
  90. # [01:25] <@tantek> this is why implementations != specs, but rather implementations help double-check specs
  91. # [01:33] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-brainstorming&diff=65025&oldid=65019&rcid=101402 * Kevin Marks * (+156) /* feedback on more rel info */ link to algorithm
  92. # [01:36] * Joins: fuzzyhorns (~fuzzyhorn@73.38.57.191)
  93. # [01:56] <@tantek> also why I specifically asked for it to be written up on the brainstorming page, rather than just "code is the spec" in an implementation
  94. # [02:10] <@tantek> also, KevinMarks, there is nothing ambigous about it, you explicitly listed rel-alternate in the proposal for rel-urls, therefore it got included. I understand now that is not exactly as you intended, with the additional impact on "rels" etc. - but that was not what you wrote down. hence the need to write these things down.
  95. # [02:11] <KevinMarks> it is clearly ambiguous as you and I interpreted it differently
  96. # [02:11] <@tantek> I'm not sure what's ambiguous about the explicit inclusion of alternate
  97. # [02:11] <@tantek> I agree that's apparently not what you meant
  98. # [02:12] <@tantek> btw using alternate as an example helped make the case for rel-urls, FWIW
  99. # [02:13] <KevinMarks> the ambiguity is you omitting it from rels but including in rel-urls
  100. # [02:14] <@tantek> there was no change to "rels" specified in your brainstorm
  101. # [02:14] <@tantek> whereas alternate was listed as one of the examples to include in rel-urls
  102. # [02:14] <@tantek> again, no ambiguity. inconsistency, sure, but neither I nor anyone else noticed it til now
  103. # [02:15] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-issues&diff=65028&oldid=65024&rcid=101405 * Tantek * (+260) /* drop alternates collection and include them in rels */ add discussion with a +1 to start it off
  104. # [02:16] <@tantek> KevinMarks, assuming this issue captures your intent, could you comment? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#drop_alternates_collection_and_include_them_in_rels
  105. # [02:16] <@tantek> plus you should feel free to implement and cite that proposed issue
  106. # [02:17] <@tantek> !tell tommorris, kylewm, aaronpk your comments would be welcome here too: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#drop_alternates_collection_and_include_them_in_rels
  107. # [02:17] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
  108. # [02:17] * Quits: andicascadesf (~andicasca@104-244-27-188.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net) (Quit: andicascadesf)
  109. # [02:18] <@tantek> !tell glennjones note that we have a further fix to rels based on adding rel-urls and the clarification you requested this morning, please comment: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#drop_alternates_collection_and_include_them_in_rels
  110. # [02:18] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
  111. # [02:24] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-issues&diff=65029&oldid=65028&rcid=101406 * Kevin Marks * (+278) /* drop alternates collection and include them in rels */ +1
  112. # [02:28] <@tantek> cool - assuming we get more consensus that just the editor (myself) and an implementer (go ahead and patch mf2py KevinMarks), then I'll add it to the spec
  113. # [02:28] <@tantek> s/that just/than just
  114. # [02:28] <Loqi> tantek meant to say: cool - assuming we get more consensus than just the editor (myself) and an implementer (go ahead and patch mf2py KevinMarks), then I'll add it to the spec
  115. # [02:31] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-issues&diff=65030&oldid=65029&rcid=101407 * Kylewm * (+138) /* drop alternates collection and include them in rels */ +1
  116. # [02:31] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-issues&diff=65031&oldid=65030&rcid=101408 * Kylewm * (+48) /* drop alternates collection and include them in rels */ would help if i signed it
  117. # [02:32] <KevinMarks> kyle, do you want to do the testcase parsing thing that I have in my fork in the main mf2py?
  118. # [02:32] <KevinMarks> only pointing to the mainline tests instead of my fork?
  119. # [02:35] <kylewm> KevinMarks: yes, but I don't know whether it's a good idea to run them as part of the current test suite, or to invoke them separately
  120. # [02:35] <Loqi> kylewm: tantek left you a message 17 minutes ago: your comments would be welcome here too: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#drop_alternates_collection_and_include_them_in_rels
  121. # [02:35] <kylewm> and also I'd like to fix the directory names so they are not "test" and "tests"
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  123. # [02:35] <KevinMarks> heh
  124. # [02:35] <KevinMarks> that is the name of the repository in microformats
  125. # [02:36] <KevinMarks> I'm getting whitespace mismatch errors in test_embedded_parsing and test_hoisting_nested_hcard
  126. # [02:36] <kylewm> also I tend to agree with ben_thatmustbeme that submodules are a pain
  127. # [02:37] <KevinMarks> is there a better way to depend on the other repository?
  128. # [02:38] <KevinMarks> being able to do "git submodule update --remote; nosetests" is handy
  129. # [02:39] <kylewm> something feels slightly off i guess... should the version of the test suite be dependent on the version of mf2py, or vice versa
  130. # [02:40] <kylewm> probably it should... at least on a macro level.
  131. # [02:41] <kylewm> but like if the tests have something slightly wrong in them, and it gets fixed, it's a pain to have to make a new commit to mf2py to update the submodule
  132. # [02:42] <kylewm> strawman alternative: have the test harness download the test files before running them
  133. # [02:43] <ben_thatmustbeme> re submodules, the biggest problem is how other people mismanage them
  134. # [02:43] <ben_thatmustbeme> forgetting to push submodules, etc
  135. # [02:43] <ben_thatmustbeme> or rather not realizing they editted a submodule
  136. # [02:44] <KevinMarks> I'm avoiding thta by not editing the submodule
  137. # [02:52] <ben_thatmustbeme> that is one option, haha, but then if you want to update submodules its annoying. 'git submodule udpate --init --recursive' only does a checkout to whatever version of the submodule it was committed with. to pull all the latest libs is a bit annoying
  138. # [02:53] <ben_thatmustbeme> worse, i have had people commit and push the submodule ONLY not realizing they had changed directory to inside the submodule
  139. # [02:53] <ben_thatmustbeme> so their changes never actually go anywhere
  140. # [02:53] <ben_thatmustbeme> on the main code anyway
  141. # [02:53] <KevinMarks> hm
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  143. # [02:56] <KevinMarks> kyle, did you do some whitespace changes?
  144. # [03:13] <kylewm> no?
  145. # [03:14] <kylewm> wait, if you mean change the whitespace in the source code, i did slightly https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/commit/c1dd21cce6573fd497adb9b471a7ac90b8619b52
  146. # [03:16] <KevinMarks> no, I'm seeing whitespace missing in test_embedded_parsing
  147. # [03:16] <KevinMarks> and .test_hoisting_nested_hcard
  148. # [03:16] <KevinMarks> it's stripping the spaces after the newline
  149. # [03:19] <kylewm> I did not intentionally change any whitespace parsing
  150. # [03:20] <KevinMarks> is this another 'which html parser do we have this time' problem?
  151. # [03:21] <kylewm> very likely
  152. # [03:27] <KevinMarks> OK, updated to put the alternaets in the rels and rel-urls
  153. # [03:27] <KevinMarks> http://www.unmung.com/?html=%3Ca+rel%3D%22author%22+href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2Fa%22%3Eauthor+a%3C%2Fa%3E%0D%0A%3Ca+rel%3D%22author%22+href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2Fb%22%3Eauthor+b%3C%2Fa%3E%0D%0A%3Ca+rel%3D%22in-reply-to%22+href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2F1%22%3Epost+1%3C%2Fa%3E%0D%0A%3Ca+rel%3D%22in-reply-to%22+href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2F2%22%3Epost+2%3C%2Fa%3E%0D%0A%3Ca+rel%3D%22alternate+ho
  154. # [03:30] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-issues&diff=65032&oldid=65031&rcid=101409 * Kevin Marks * (+791) /* drop alternates collection and include them in rels */ implemented in mf2py
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  174. # [04:08] <kylewm> KevinMarks: what would should happen if two rels point to the same URL with different properties?
  175. # [04:08] <kylewm> http://www.unmung.com/?html=%3Clink+rel%3D%22alternate%22+href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2Ffr%22+type%3D%22application%2Fxml%22%3E+and+%3Clink+rel%3D%22alternate%22+href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2Ffr%22+type%3D%22text%2Fhtml%22%3E&pretty=on
  176. # [04:09] <kylewm> rel-urls is lossy compared to alternates in that case, is that bad?
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  189. # [05:17] <Loqi> [@flylinux] 最近看到了一個流行的詞彙『微格(Microformats)』，就到微格 http://microformats.org/ 的網站看了一下，布丁在microformats & semantic web... http://job.achi.idv.tw/2010/04/13/%e9%97%9c%e6%96%bc%e5%be%ae%e6%a0%bc/ (http://twtr.io/105Rmy01a0G)
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  192. # [05:53] <@tantek> !tell kylewm re: "if two rels point to the same URL with different properties" - it's a bit odd, but the union of the rels is what applies so it's ok to do so. as far as which text label or type applies, we could pick either one.
  193. # [05:53] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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  237. # [10:53] <@KevinMarks_> Glennjones do you think we can replace the magic alternates with rel-urls?
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  239. # [10:57] <glennjones> We could do, but what about backwards compatibility, not sure who if anyone is using “alternates” data from the output of our parsers?
  240. # [10:57] <Loqi> glennjones: tantek left you a message 8 hours, 38 minutes ago: note that we have a further fix to rels based on adding rel-urls and the clarification you requested this morning, please comment: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#drop_alternates_collection_and_include_them_in_rels
  241. # [11:02] <glennjones> KevinMarks_: just reading through last nights chat to get context
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  251. # [11:29] <glennjones> KevinMarks_: yes we should drop “alternates” if we are happy no ones using it, but techically it is a backwards compatibility break
  252. # [11:30] <glennjones> KevinMarks_: did you research if URL strings can contain chars that are not valid in JSON keys while coming up with structure?
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  267. # [14:25] <Loqi> [[gender-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=gender-examples&diff=65033&oldid=64878&rcid=101410 * Dating * (+85)
  268. # [14:26] <Loqi> [[gender-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=gender-examples&diff=65034&oldid=65033&rcid=101411 * Dating * (-2)
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  298. # [18:35] <glennjones> !tell tantek, KevinMarks is the “text” property of rel-urls a string or a array of string like the other properties? I think it should be an array for consistance
  299. # [18:35] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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  325. # [21:47] <KevinMarks> hm, what chars are not valid in JSON keys?
  326. # [21:47] <Loqi> KevinMarks: glennjones left you a message 3 hours, 12 minutes ago: is the “text” property of rel-urls a string or a array of string like the other properties? I think it should be an array for consistance
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  329. # [21:49] <KevinMarks> !tell glennjones, tantek said text was OK as a single string, but kyle's issue of pointing to the same URL twice may suggest we need an array. Are there in the wild exampels fo linking to the same URL wiht multiple types? I think that is contrived, but linking to the same URL with multiple texts is quite plausible
  330. # [21:49] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
  331. # [21:49] <@tantek> KevinMarks: until we see real world examples and use-cases for that, I'd rather treat it either as first wins or last wins
  332. # [21:49] <Loqi> tantek: glennjones left you a message 3 hours, 14 minutes ago: is the “text” property of rel-urls a string or a array of string like the other properties? I think it should be an array for consistance
  333. # [21:49] <Loqi> tantek: KevinMarks left you a message 42 seconds ago: said text was OK as a single string, but kyle's issue of pointing to the same URL twice may suggest we need an array. Are there in the wild exampels fo linking to the same URL wiht multiple types? I think that is contrived, but linking to the same URL with multiple texts is quite plausible
  334. # [21:50] <@tantek> simpler for parsers and code that uses results of a parse
  335. # [21:50] <@tantek> I disagree with array for these because there's no use-case for it, and multiple values there would likely indicate an authoring error instead
  336. # [21:51] <@tantek> KevinMarks: I'm leaning towards first wins
  337. # [22:06] <KevinMarks> hm, looks like deduping would eb good too:
  338. # [22:06] <KevinMarks> http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http://epeus.wordpress.com&html=&pretty=on
  339. # [22:07] <KevinMarks> so many rels in a default wp install
  340. # [22:14] <Loqi> [@ngeenen] Structured Data – Your Key to Search Success in 2014 http://www.seoandy.net/biz/microformats/ via @andykinsey @cleodancer - microformatting (http://twtr.io/106xB9N9qMs)
  341. # [22:15] <@tantek> many rels is fine. same URL multiple times in multiple <link> elements is likely indicator of bugs
  342. # [22:15] <@tantek> js;dr http://www.seoandy.net/biz/microformats/ "Javascript is required. Please enable it before you are allowed to see this page. " seriously?
  343. # [22:16] <@tantek> hey SEOAndy - you might want to serve some non-JS fallback content, you know, for SEO.
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  345. # [22:21] <gRegorLove> Hah
  346. # [22:22] <@tantek> really tempted to @-reply him accordingly
  347. # [22:22] <Loqi> [@andykinsey] RT @ngeenen: Structured Data – Your Key to Search Success in 2014 http://www.seoandy.net/biz/microformats/ via @andykinsey @cleodancer - microformatting (http://twtr.io/106xrW_GdFU)
  348. # [22:22] <KevinMarks> his images 404 too
  349. # [22:22] <KevinMarks> o_O "Schema.org is currently the best way to implement microformats."
  350. # [22:23] <@tantek> KevinMarks: come now, that kind of SEO nonsense is not even worth eye-raising for, it's no surprise that the SEO hamsterwheel churns out such things.
  351. # [22:28] <KevinMarks> http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http://epeus.wordpress.com&html=&pretty=on the algorithm we have is very repetitive for tags and authors
  352. # [22:28] <KevinMarks> is there any value in having the same url in the rels multiple times?
  353. # [22:29] <KevinMarks> and conversely having the same rels in the rel-urls multiple times?
  354. # [22:30] <KevinMarks> if we'er doing that, having a list for text and title makes more sense
  355. # [22:30] <KevinMarks> or should we dedupe the rels?
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  357. # [22:43] <@tantek> we don't dedupe rels, we dedupe URLs
  358. # [22:43] <@tantek> since multiple <link href="url" rel="something"> on the same URL, mean *union* of the somethings
  359. # [22:44] <@tantek> and from the perspective of consuming code, that makes it simpler
  360. # [22:44] <@tantek> rather than having to worry that that same URL might be elsewhere in rels
  361. # [22:44] <@tantek> also, since URLs are the keys in rel-urls, they have to be unique within rel-urls
  362. # [22:45] <@tantek> thus the parser already has to do a union of the rels on multiple links to the same href
  363. # [22:45] <@tantek> and yes at that point, if the multiple links href="sameurl" have any overlap in rel values, then those rel values get collapsed as well, since they're just a set
  364. # [22:46] <KevinMarks> right, so we need to say that
  365. # [22:46] <KevinMarks> we are presenting them as a list, not a dictionary
  366. # [22:46] <KevinMarks> so deduping needs to be explicit
  367. # [22:49] * Quits: eschnou (~eschnou@50.151-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  368. # [22:51] <@tantek> currently rel-urls is a dictionary
  369. # [22:51] <@tantek> not a list
  370. # [22:51] <@tantek> *rels* is a list
  371. # [22:51] <@tantek> rel-urls is a dictionary where URLs are the keys
  372. # [22:51] <KevinMarks> yes
  373. # [22:52] <KevinMarks> I meant the ones within rels
  374. # [22:52] <KevinMarks> http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fma.tt&html=&pretty=on
  375. # [22:52] <KevinMarks> "rels": { "profile": [ "http://gmpg.org/xfn/11" ], "category": [ "http://ma.tt/category/asides/", "http://ma.tt/category/asides/", "http://ma.tt/category/asides/", "http://ma.tt/category/asides/" ], "author": [ "http://ma.tt/author/saxmatt/", "http://ma.tt/author/saxmatt/", "http:
  376. # [22:52] <KevinMarks> is preserving order of rels important
  377. # [22:53] <KevinMarks> "http://ma.tt/category/asides/": { "rels": [ "category", "tag", "category", "tag", "category", "tag", "category", "tag" ], "text": "Asides" },
  378. # [22:53] <KevinMarks> is probably unhelpful
  379. # [22:54] <KevinMarks> but is knowing that it was rel="category tag" important vs rel="tag category"
  380. # [22:54] <@tantek> something got truncated on my end
  381. # [22:55] <@tantek> no re: rel="category tag" vs rel="tag category" - they are equivalent
  382. # [22:55] <@tantek> just like class names in class attribute - order is irrelevant, undependable
  383. # [22:55] <@tantek> they are sets
  384. # [22:55] <KevinMarks> OK. so using a python set for them then serialising to a list is OK
  385. # [22:56] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  386. # [22:57] <KevinMarks> python syntax is nice there list(set(["tag","category","tag"]))
  387. # [23:03] <Loqi> [@ruthburr] Schema/microformats aren't as important as you might think for Quick Answers. @cshel #smx (http://twtr.io/1071Zud2PW8)
  388. # [23:05] <@tantek> what is smx?
  389. # [23:07] <KevinMarks> danny's conference
  390. # [23:07] <KevinMarks> http://searchmarketingexpo.com/
  391. # [23:08] <@tantek> is it like a big snakeoil swap meet? or do they actually provide citations for all their "recommendations" and "best practices"?
  392. # [23:08] <KevinMarks> a bit of both - Danny Sullivan is pretty knowledgeable, and he will have Google speakers etc
  393. # [23:09] <aaronpk> tweetable phrases are more fun
  394. # [23:09] <Loqi> aaronpk: tantek left you a message on 6/1 at 5:16pm: your comments would be welcome here too: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#drop_alternates_collection_and_include_them_in_rels
  395. # [23:21] * Quits: @tantek (~tantek@50.254.134.21) (Quit: tantek)
  396. # [23:23] * Quits: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@108-69-72-147.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  397. # [23:25] * Joins: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@108-69-72-147.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net)
  398. # [23:54] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-issues&diff=65035&oldid=65032&rcid=101412 * Kevin Marks * (+3879) /* deduping of rels */
  399. # [23:55] <KevinMarks> !tell tantek I documented the rels deduping issue
  400. # [23:55] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
  401. # [23:55] * Joins: warehouse13 (~Left_Turn@unaffiliated/turn-left/x-3739067)
  402. # [23:55] * Joins: elux (~peter@206.223.191.50)
  403. # [23:57] * Quits: Left_Turn (~Left_Turn@unaffiliated/turn-left/x-3739067) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  404. # [23:59] * Quits: elux (~peter@206.223.191.50) (Client Quit)
  405. # Session Close: Wed Jun 03 00:00:00 2015

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