/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2015-06-09 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Jun 09 00:00:01 2015
# Session Ident: #microformats
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# [00:23] <Loqi> [@technotipz] Ultimate Guide to Microformats: Reference and Examples http://www.technotipz.com/tips-and-tricks/ultimate-guide-to-microformats-reference-and-examples/?utm_source=ReviveOldPost&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ReviveOldPost #tips (http://twtr.io/10L5a4EuD2w)
# [00:25] * KevinMarks modifies to http://www.technotipz.com/tips-and-tricks/ultimate-guide-to-microformats-reference-and-examples/?utm_source=indieweb&utm_medium=irc&utm_campaign=ReviveOldPost
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# [00:40] <kylewm> yikes, article from 2010
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# [01:08] <@tantek> Twitter often resurfaces old articles
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# [01:50] <KevinMarks> so html.parser fails 5 built-in tests
# [01:50] <KevinMarks> and is doing a lot it's own bad whitespace run compression
# [01:52] <KevinMarks> it seems to compress whitespace to a single char, but preserve an \n if there is one
# [01:53] <KevinMarks> so we should prefer the other 2
# [01:54] <KevinMarks> hm, lxml does somethign simialr
# [01:56] <KevinMarks> both of them turn https://github.com/microformats/tests/blob/master/tests/microformats-v1/hcard/format.html inot
# [01:57] <KevinMarks> u'name': [u'John\nDoe']
# [01:57] <KevinMarks> as if they are indent stripping
# [01:57] <KevinMarks> which makes some sense I suppose
# [01:58] <KevinMarks> that gives the variation between html5lib abd lxml
# [01:59] <KevinMarks> html.parser also fails test_parser.test_multiple_root_classnames
# [02:00] * @tantek catches up on logs here too
# [02:00] * @tantek wonders if we should provide a nice short recipe example that's actually a good recipe, e.g. for a smoothie
# [02:01] * @tantek has apples, oranges, and bananas at home and may have to try to make one (recipe and smoothie)
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# [02:05] <KevinMarks> I have a photo
# [02:05] <KevinMarks> http://known.kevinmarks.com/2015/this-mornings-juice-ingredients-from-the-garden
# [02:06] <KevinMarks> hm https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/blob/master/test/examples/nested_multiple_classnames.html
# [02:06] <KevinMarks> that closes a <p> it didn't open
# [02:07] <KevinMarks> so html.parser puts the h-cite after the </html>
# [02:08] <KevinMarks> should I fix the html to be more valid?
# [02:08] <KevinMarks> or should we just reject html.parser outright ?
# [02:09] <KevinMarks> or maybe the lenient flag is what we need
# [02:16] <KevinMarks> kylewm: what was the lenient trick?
# [02:20] <kylewm> 'permissive' was the name of the feature that {lxml, html5lib} and !{html.parser}
# [02:23] <KevinMarks> so that will stop the bad markup restructuring problem of html.parser
# [02:24] <KevinMarks> but we still have whitespace variation between lxml and html5lib
# [02:24] <KevinMarks> which is another argument for whitespace collapsing IMO
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# [02:25] <kylewm> :(
# [02:25] <kylewm> i wonder if the python parser is more problematic than the others in this regard
# [02:26] <KevinMarks> it may be an artefact of line-oriented parsing
# [02:38] <kylewm> so... another option would be to collapse whitespace in the test harness, when doing string comparisons
# [02:38] <kylewm> and basically punt on the right way for parsers to do it
# [02:42] <Loqi> [[picoformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=picoformats&diff=65048&oldid=64512&rcid=101425 * Tantek * (-122) removals: hashtags.org corp service site, microsyntax(.)org looks like expired & registered by nothing do with this topic, twitterdata(.)org similarly appears to have been parked after being abandoned
# [02:43] <kylewm> and I'd probably vote to go ahead and do that for now, so we can worry about more interesting parsing issues
# [02:44] <Loqi> [[picoformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=picoformats&diff=65049&oldid=65048&rcid=101426 * Tantek * (-4) /* Generic */ civilities.net 404 - thus removing - assumed dead site, note @-mentions different from @-replies, add #-hashtags as generic example
# [03:28] <Loqi> [@AllTheTwits] Trying to find a way of inputting microformats that doesn't make you want to smash through walls. (http://twtr.io/10LNFLHxuh9)
# [03:39] <KevinMarks> I want to actually resolve the whitespace issue for parser users though
# [03:40] <KevinMarks> as I don't think anyone actually wants ' \n\r \t ' in their json
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# [03:40] <KevinMarks> and the "we should preserve it" is a theoretical problem
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# [03:43] <KevinMarks> i wonder if mf2py should put a note in the output if they are using html.parser that warns them
# [03:44] <kylewm> lol, do you mean stdout, or the JSON output?
# [03:44] <@tantek> heh
# [03:45] <KevinMarks> I mean the json output
# [03:48] <KevinMarks> thinking about how long it has taken us to work this out
# [03:48] <KevinMarks> that is what a dev will be looking at
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# [04:14] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=65050&oldid=65044&rcid=101427 * Tantek * (+172) remove leading/trailing whitespace per part of issue whitespace collapsing revisited consensus, and implementation in mf2py
# [04:16] <@tantek> btw one way to explicitly include leading/trailing whitespace with with the data element and value attribute
# [04:16] <@tantek> I'm leaving that in because the only reason you would have whitespace in a quoted attribute value is deliberate
# [04:21] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-issues&diff=65051&oldid=65047&rcid=101428 * Tantek * (+78) note whitespace collapsing revisited 2015-06-08 option 2 resolved by consensus/mf2py impl - drop leading/trailing whitespace
# [04:26] <@tantek> ok I think I'm caught up to consensus + implementation issues
# [04:26] <@tantek> next I'm going to start incorporating the strong consensus issues that are TBI
# [04:28] <@tantek> in particular: " uf2 children inside a classic microformats root class name", " any h- root class name overrides and stops backcompat root", " backcompat classic microformats should only see backcompat properties", " microformats2 root class names should only see microformats2 properties", " implied properties on backcompat parsing unlikely to be intended", " implied properties when an explicit class is provided", " link elements and u-
# [04:28] <@tantek> parsing"
# [04:29] <@tantek> the first 7 issues listed here: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues please (re)read and speak up if you have had any change of opinion since consensus at the mf2 dev meetup where they were resolved
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# [08:19] <Loqi> [@pypi_updates] mf2util 0.2.0: Python Microformats2 utilities, a companion to mf2py http://pypi.python.org/pypi/mf2util/0.2.0 (http://twtr.io/10LoS0hgBfo)
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# [08:38] <csarven> hAtom2Atom e.g., http://tools.microformatic.com/help/xhtml/hatom/ , may be broken. Is the source up somewhere?
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# [08:59] <Loqi> [@pypi_updates] mf2util 0.2.1: Python Microformats2 utilities, a companion to mf2py https://pypi.python.org/pypi/mf2util/0.2.1 (http://twtr.io/10Ls1hbuAux)
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# [09:34] <Loqi> [@artwisanggeni] #python mf2util 0.2.1: Python Microformats2 utilities, a companion to mf2py https://pypi.python.org/pypi/mf2util/0.2.1 (http://twtr.io/10LvAqu_Mnk)
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# [10:50] <Loqi> [@csarven] #microformats 2 is #RDFa + #SchemaOrg "simplified". (http://twtr.io/10M1z3v8YML)
# [10:53] <Loqi> [@SplashCopy] Microformats - are they the best #SEO tool that you're not using? https://www.splashcopywriters.co.uk/blog/microformats-are-they-the-most-underrated-seo-weapon-of-all-time.html (http://twtr.io/10M2EJcjJ3j)
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# [11:58] <Loqi> [@antoineguilbert] A relire sur le blog - Comment intégrer les microformats sur votre blog #Wordpress ? http://www.antoineguilbert.fr/comment-integrer-les-microformats-sur-votre-blog-wordpress/ (http://twtr.io/10M85586Tgs)
# [12:04] <Loqi> [@Kids0utofChaos] Check out this great Podcast: http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page (http://twtr.io/10M8e2AJSuw)
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# [13:42] <Loqi> [@fakebaldur] @bbirdiman @dauwhe @acutebit 'e-content' is a part of Microformats2 h-news which makes life simpler for Instapaper, Readability & scrapers + (http://twtr.io/10MHUSz8kSQ)
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# [14:25] <Loqi> [@neogeografen] Skal du til #fm15 på Bornholm? Så findes der også gratis off-line digitale kort til Garmin som er #osm baseret http://www.microformats.dk/2014/05/26/endnu-en-installeringsguide-til-gratis-openstreetmap-cykelkort-pa-garmin-gpsere/ (http://twtr.io/10MMKTPUVHt)
# [14:25] <Loqi> [@neogeografen] Skal du til #fm15 på Bornholm? Så findes der også gratis off-line digitale kort til Garmin som er #osm baseret http://www.microformats.dk/2014/05/26/endnu-en-installeringsguide-til-gratis-openstreetmap-cykelkort-pa-garmin-gpsere/ … 2/2 (http://twtr.io/10MMMdVQmiC)
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# [14:39] <Loqi> [@neogeografen] På #fm15 ? hvad med lave datamotion i pauserne med Mapillary app (crowdsourcet billeder) af øens skønne natur? http://www.microformats.dk/2015/02/16/opvarmning-til-open-data-day-med-en-omgang-high-impack-datamotion/ (http://twtr.io/10MNbxs8SJg)
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# [14:46] <Loqi> [@El_Don_Carlito] Microdata et http://t.co/iEXsodPQ0t, la sémantique chirurgicale http://www.alsacreations.com/article/lire/1509-microdata-microformats-schema-semantique.html #SEO #Sémantique (http://twtr.io/10MMpYPF6Jf)
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# [17:47] <dym_cx> is ".p-language" an acceptable microformats class for spoken/witen languages on h-card/h-resume? or ".p-skill" is generally prefered?
# [17:49] <Zegnat> skill seems to be the generally assumed class, though separating languages has been discussed in brainstorming. There are also some good mark-up examples there: http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-skill-brainstorm#Separating_language_from_skills
# [17:49] <Zegnat> (I would have given that link in #indiewebcamp, but needed some time to dig it up again.)
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# [18:07] <@tantek> good morning #microformats!
# [18:10] <@tantek> !tell csarven re: https://twitter.com/csarven/status/608194508711444480 what's been your personal experience in using microformats2 to markup your HTML, vs. RDFa with/without schemaorg etc.? difficulty / impact on your markup / # of changes / time to do etc.
# [18:10] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# [18:14] <csarven> tantek To be absolutely clear, *for me*, there is hardly any significant difference between writing mf2 and RDFa. In fact, mf2 is so close to RDFa (at least the way I see it), they are virtually interchangeable. Yes, there are plenty of differences if we look closely, but I don't think those are fundamental to picking one over the other. *As I see it*, if one can do either one of those, they can handle the other.
# [18:14] <Loqi> csarven: tantek left you a message 4 minutes ago: re: https://twitter.com/csarven/status/608194508711444480 what's been your personal experience in using microformats2 to markup your HTML, vs. RDFa with/without schemaorg etc.? difficulty / impact on your markup / # of changes / time to do etc.
# [18:15] <csarven> Difficulty of vocab use (e.g., looking up a term to use) is about equivalent.
# [18:17] <csarven> class="p-name" vs. property="foaf:name" --- hardly calls for a debate.
# [18:17] <csarven> class="u-url" vs. rel="foaf:homepage"
# [18:19] <@tantek> except mf2 does not use nor have fragile cnames
# [18:19] <@tantek> s/cnames/qnames
# [18:19] <Loqi> tantek meant to say: except mf2 does not use nor have fragile qnames
# [18:19] <@tantek> which becomes more obvious once you start marking up multiple types of things
# [18:20] <csarven> Can you elaborate on the "fragility"?
# [18:20] <@tantek> yeah it's long discussed and posted in lots of places
# [18:21] <csarven> Let me guess.. in the mf/wiki written my people which have strong dislike to namespaces? :)
# [18:21] <csarven> s/my/by
# [18:21] <Loqi> csarven meant to say: Let me guess.. in the mf/wiki written by people which have strong dislike to namespaces? :)
# [18:22] <@tantek> I think only citations there
# [18:22] <csarven> At the end of the day, whether you tell the machine "foo" or "foo:bar", it doesn't make a difference. Bunch of sufficiently unique-enough strings
# [18:22] <@tantek> since mf folks don't have much direct experience with using qnames, others have documented the problems
# [18:23] <csarven> p-name is a "simple" QName.
# [18:23] <@tantek> csarven - sure, prefixes, whether -webkit- or -foaf- work
# [18:23] <@tantek> but that's not a qname - qname's are bound with URIs (somewhere else) which is what makes them fragile
# [18:23] <@tantek> s/qname's/qnames
# [18:23] <Loqi> tantek meant to say: but that's not a qname - qnames are bound with URIs (somewhere else) which is what makes them fragile
# [18:24] <@tantek> saying p-name is a "simple" QName is as much of a lie / deception as saying that Facebook's OGP is "simple" RDFa.
# [18:24] <csarven> Well, if you treat it as an URN, the problem goes away.
# [18:24] <@tantek> "treat as an URN" - something no one does in actual practice with anything
# [18:25] <@tantek> so that's like saying "if (this hypothetical thing), ..."
# [18:25] <csarven> Your definition of "actual practice" is bound to what's on webpages. I would say that, that is not the best or complete (although I don't disagree that it is a good sample).
# [18:25] <@tantek> right, the web is my dataset, all else is handwaving
# [18:26] <csarven> To be clear: Open/Public/Visible Web is your dataset.
# [18:26] <@tantek> I don't believe in angels on the head of a pin either. What's your point?
# [18:27] <csarven> Just because you can't access or don't want to work with, it doesn't mean that others are not.
# [18:27] * csarven senses a meta-discussion at this point.
# [18:27] <csarven> I'm happy to get back to the main discussion point.
# [18:27] <@tantek> nah - I like stuff that is citable. that typically means open/public/visible web. have pretty much given up on armchair architecture about uncitable things.
# [18:28] <@tantek> science prefers the citable, all else is good material for art
# [18:28] <csarven> If the QName breaks or fragile, information can be extracted just the same. Even if http://example.org/ behind that example:foo disappears you can still make sense of it. Just as you make sense of p-name in different context, i.e., offloading that interpretation to the scripts.
# [18:29] <@tantek> then just use prefixes in the first place, and forget about qnames. it makes the model simpler.
# [18:29] <csarven> Unfortunately we live in a world where not every phenomenon is easily reproducible or even replicable.
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# [18:30] <@tantek> here are some citations for you: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080801#l-160
# [18:31] <@tantek> who said anything about solving "every phenomenon"? <-- boiling the ocean strawman
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# [18:31] <@tantek> more: https://www.w3.org/wiki/BuildOrBuyTerms
# [18:31] <@tantek> and http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20071025#l-148
# [18:32] <@tantek> and lastly Hixie's screed: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Aug/0035.html
# [18:32] <@tantek> in short: qnames break copy/paste
# [18:32] <@tantek> or vice versa
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# [18:32] <@tantek> btw - lots more citations in that Hixie email
# [18:32] <csarven> I think whether the model is simpler or to what extent it is, it is not that clear. The model is arguably "simpler" for your dataset, but I don't think that simplicity is obvious nor is it the case that the fragility of QNames is something to worry about (in a force-able future) - if you think that's the case, show me what breaks and everything falls apart.
# [18:33] <@tantek> see citations to all the things that have broken over the years in https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Aug/0035.html
# [18:33] <csarven> The fact that mf2 exists is a good testament of mf was "too simple".
# [18:33] <csarven> There is a balance somewhere.
# [18:33] <@tantek> qnames are in the basic category of "YAGNI"
# [18:34] <@tantek> some aspects of classic microformats were very simple, other aspects (needing to write special parsing code per new microformat) were not
# [18:35] <@tantek> we thought that was a reasonable trade-off, turned out with some more thinking / experience / innovation, it was a trade-off we didn't need to actually make
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# [18:35] <csarven> How is the parsing of mf2 fundamentally different than RDFa?
# [18:35] <csarven> I don't want to discuss edge-cases
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# [18:35] <@tantek> lol qnames are all about edgecases
# [18:35] <csarven> mf2 is now ever close to RDF(a) than it ever was.
# [18:35] <@tantek> so you already have by trying to justify them
# [18:35] <@tantek> you also brought up non-open non-public non-visible web things - also edge case
# [18:36] <csarven> [Citation needed]
# [18:36] <@tantek> parsing of mf2 is much simpler
# [18:36] <@tantek> just compare size of specs for starters
# [18:37] <@tantek> I agree there is much potential compatibility between mf2 and RDF(a)
# [18:37] <csarven> Do you think that ... say the World Bank or.... you know NSA and other teams which wear black all day publish their data on webpages? It is even commonly accepted that there is more "invisible" data than visible data.
# [18:37] <@tantek> "commonly accepted" - science is not a democracy - so "commonly accepted" is never a good argument
# [18:38] <csarven> Right. Is that why /triples suggests "unnecessarily complicated"?
# [18:38] <csarven> And that's a good argument right?
# [18:39] <@tantek> right, the proof is the property/value systems work fine
# [18:39] <csarven> While you pick on my "commonly accepted". Will you use the same reasoning towards "unnecessarily complicated"?
# [18:39] <@tantek> AKA I suppose what you'd call "doubles"
# [18:39] <@tantek> so if doubles work fine, triples are unnecessary
# [18:39] <csarven> You can arbitrarily come up with "working systems"
# [18:39] <csarven> p-name will work just as well as xyz-name or xyx:name
# [18:39] <@tantek> csarven: hah - seems pretty difficult for most folks to actually ship working systems
# [18:39] <@tantek> e.g. on their own websites
# [18:40] <@tantek> except that makes it clear you don't understand what the p- is
# [18:40] <Zegnat> I think csarven’s first statement is the real point here: it is just as easy for an implementer to look up the meaning behind “p-name” as it is to find it behind “foaf:name”. The only real pro for mf2 is in the parsing through prefixes, even if the parser doesn’t know what “name” is, it knows it will be text
# [18:40] <@tantek> it's just a parsing instruction, not present in the parsed JSON result
# [18:40] <Zegnat> (I just spent 20 seconds writing what tantek just did in 2)
# [18:40] <@tantek> Zegnat - your explanation is good too
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# [18:41] <csarven> Again, I don't see fundamental differences neither for the authors or consumers.
# [18:41] <csarven> s/authors/publishers
# [18:41] <Loqi> csarven meant to say: Again, I don't see fundamental differences neither for the publishers or consumers.
# [18:42] <csarven> Differences are minimal at thi spoint.. and I think that itself is a good thing to take note of and learn from. There is some convergence.
# [18:42] <@tantek> for authors, mf2 is less markup
# [18:42] <@tantek> for consuming code, there are only 5 prefixes h- p- u- dt- e-
# [18:42] <@tantek> so it makes sense for both publishers and developers to use mf2 - less work, simpler
# [18:42] <csarven> There is an EAV in place. That's the generalized form of mf2 and RDF(a).
# [18:42] <aaronpk> for parsers, there are only 5 prefixes. for consuming code, there are none, because anything using the parsed result doesn't even see the prefixes
# [18:43] <@tantek> for anyone that has legacy systems / investments in "triples" in their backend, yes they can do conversions
# [18:43] <@tantek> aaronpk is right - once you've run a parser, you don't deal with any prefixes at all
# [18:44] <csarven> If we are going to bring our calculators out... well, RDF has one way to parse ;) spo. Crawl the graph..
# [18:46] <csarven> Not to forget that, it is practically the same way one would query that graph!
# [18:46] <@tantek> csarven more for your "qnames considered harmful" folder of citations: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2002Jun/0126
# [18:47] <csarven> So, not only do you write the data but get it out the same way.
# [18:48] <@tantek> csarven: this is pretty funny - what was the context? https://twitter.com/csarven/status/608214938373517312
# [18:48] <Loqi> [@csarven] Argh.. Go away extra whitespace, you are drunk! (http://twtr.io/10M9GwcxPgs)
# [18:48] <csarven> Oh, don't remind me.. I still have to fix that. Not related to mf2/RDF.. Just some PHP echo or new line somewhere
# [18:48] <@tantek> OTOH this is pure gold: https://twitter.com/csarven/status/608174982523437056
# [18:48] <Loqi> [@csarven] .@SemanticsConf ..where the conference can't tell the difference between print centric and Web based knowledge sharing #SemanticWeb #FAIL (http://twtr.io/10Lv0Z4pzAw)
# [18:49] <@tantek> and the clincher: https://twitter.com/csarven/status/608181029866729472
# [18:49] <Loqi> [@csarven] .@SemanticsConf Self-explanatory. You run a conf on #SemanticWeb. You ask for LaTeX b/c you're not convinced/understand the Web(stack) (http://twtr.io/10LxAA0pfQY)
# [18:49] <@tantek> I just don't even
# [18:49] <csarven> https://twitter.com/csarven/status/592973363800383489
# [18:49] <Loqi> [@csarven] We'd understand & embrace the impact of lower-case semantic web efforts on the upper-case #SemanticWeb #Web eg @microformats @schemaorg_dev (http://twtr.io/yqQc6HBQJ9)
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# [18:49] <@tantek> csarven: how do you cope with these people that talk * Web, and yet request LaTeX?!?
# [18:49] <csarven> I'm allergic to both camps dissing the other side :) plenty to learn from different approaches.
# [18:50] <csarven> tantek I try to breath in and out very slowly.
# [18:50] <@tantek> that's good advice :)
# [18:51] <csarven> If we look at microformats/Microdata/RDF(a) history, I think we can see how each evolved due to the other.
# [18:51] <@tantek> certainly agreed - been saying that for quite some time
# [18:52] <@tantek> csarven: and microformats2 is the current latest version that takes into account all the lessons from the previous efforts (microformats/Microdata/RDF(a) history)
# [18:52] <csarven> Roughly: RDF in HTML -> RDFa -> microformats -> Microdata -> RDFa Lite -> mf2 .. ?
# [18:52] <@tantek> microformats predates RDFa
# [18:52] <@tantek> and emerged independently
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# [18:53] <@tantek> from web designer's practices of using semantic class names
# [18:53] <csarven> I can't recall exact dates right now.. but are you specifically referring to XFN?
# [18:53] <@tantek> no, rel evolved independently
# [18:54] <@tantek> and predates all of that I think
# [18:55] <csarven> https://plus.google.com/114223893421375686319/posts/aqq9WWHdZd1
# [18:56] <csarven> One of my happy moments of realization.
# [18:56] <@tantek> semantic class names evolved out of modern web designer practices once they started splitting presentation into CSS, and out of HTML, and started using semantic HTML
# [18:56] * aaronpk wonders how much longer that plus.google.com URL will exist ;)
# [18:56] <Loqi> [@jskvishal1] Author hReview: Show Google Rich Snippet Star Rating in Search http://dignol.org/show-star-rating-in-google-search/ (http://twtr.io/10Mkfy10BsZ)
# [18:56] <csarven> aaronpk It doesn't matter. Hopefully something archived it already.
# [18:57] <@tantek> csarven doubtful - G+ URLs seem to not be archived/indexed by anyone other than Google
# [18:57] <csarven> bot Blocked?
# [18:57] <aaronpk> curl https://plus.google.com/114223893421375686319/posts/aqq9WWHdZd1 --> a bunch of <script> tags... so... doubtful
# [18:57] <@tantek> csarven: people used to think of the "road" as XML as well
# [18:57] <@tantek> and now maybe JSON or JSONLD?
# [18:57] <@tantek> there's always the overengineering crowd that imagines themselves as the road
# [18:58] <csarven> MOre like the super-highway
# [18:58] <@tantek> when they're actually more like papers on how a superconducting maglev could be built someday
# [18:58] <csarven> Couldn't capture that in the same photo ;)
# [19:00] <Loqi> [@clixcoin] RT @kevinmarks: http://ctrlq.org/first/69178-microformats/ @biz, @ev, @sacca first to mention #microformats on twitter (http://twtr.io/10Mm4mprWh9)
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# [20:37] <@tantek> apparently MySpace circa 2012-06-15 supported hCard, according to the "Inspect Element" screenshot in this video, which shows a quite readable class="vcard" on a MySpace profile/friends page: https://youtu.be/iApvUMgk5Mo?t=2m47s
# [20:41] <@tantek> KevinMarks: do you have an example from the "wordpress corpus" that uses rel="bookmark" rel="tag" rel="author" ?
# [20:47] <@tantek> KevinMarks: also rel="author" was never part of hAtom, but if you find examples of hAtom in the wild that seem to depend on it - please provide their URL(s) so we can make an real-world-based back-compat decision
# [20:51] <@tantek> !tell kylewm,KevinMarks does mf2py do backcompat parsing of hAtom's class=hentry?
# [20:51] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# [20:52] <KevinMarks> yes https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/blob/master/mf2py/backcompat.py#L60
# [20:52] <Loqi> KevinMarks: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: does mf2py do backcompat parsing of hAtom's class=hentry?
# [20:55] <kylewm> .
# [20:55] <Loqi> kylewm: tantek left you a message 3 minutes ago: does mf2py do backcompat parsing of hAtom's class=hentry?
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# [20:57] <Loqi> [[h-entry]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=h-entry&diff=65052&oldid=64884&rcid=101429 * Tantek * (+491) /* Parser Compatibility */ move rel=tag to parser compat (from proposed), and add rel=author to proposed per input from KevinMarks, awaiting citations to real w
# [20:58] <@tantek> KevinMarks, kylewm specifically http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Parser_Compatibility
# [20:58] <kylewm> tantek: re wordpress corpus, the default themes all use those things... https://wp-themes.com/twentytwelve/ https://wp-themes.com/twentythirteen/ https://wp-themes.com/twentyfourteen/
# [20:59] <@tantek> KevinMarks: since you brought it up again, I upgraded rel=tag from proposed backcompat to part of the backcompat spec ^^^ - obviously it may require more parsing code due to the special treatment of "last segment of the URL"
# [20:59] <@tantek> s/segment/path segment
# [20:59] <Loqi> tantek meant to say: KevinMarks: since you brought it up again, I upgraded rel=tag from proposed backcompat to part of the backcompat spec ^^^ - obviously it may require more parsing code due to the special treatment of "last path segment of the URL"
# [20:59] <@tantek> kylewm: they all use all the rels?
# [21:00] <kylewm> yeah, bookmark, tag, and author. we added hEntry scoped rel=bookmark backcompat parsing to mf2py
# [21:00] <kylewm> @pwcc requested it for bridgy to support better original-post-discovery on wordpress blogs
# [21:01] <@tantek> upon inspection, looks like rel=author is on the same link as class="url fn n" inside a span with class="author vcard" - thus no need to look at rel=author (existing author vcard backcompat handles it)
# [21:02] <@tantek> KevinMarks - what's your preferred way to handle (and thus specify) "/?tag=boat" ?
# [21:02] <@tantek> (as the last segment of a rel-tag URL?)
# [21:02] <@tantek> since obviously the intent is "boat", yet existing rel=tag defn produces "?tag=boat" as the tag
# [21:02] <@tantek> found here https://wp-themes.com/twentyfourteen/
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# [21:08] <@tantek> KevinMarks - re: accomodate WordPress hentry markup, we may have to do some extra work to get the dt-published
# [21:09] <@tantek> as there is no "published" or "updated" classnames in e.g. twentyfourteen
# [21:09] <@tantek> but they do have <time class="entry-date" datetime="…">
# [21:10] <@tantek> I'm going to add that as a proposal to backcompat hentry parsing, and cite the example themes that kylewm provided
# [21:11] <@tantek> being conservative, and *only* looking for time[class|="entry-date"][datetime] in particular
# [21:13] <@tantek> time.entry-date[datetime] to be simpler
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# [21:14] <@tantek> verified that pattern back to twentyten
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# [21:29] <Loqi> [[h-entry]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=h-entry&diff=65053&oldid=65052&rcid=101430 * Tantek * (+354) /* Parser Compatibility */ add notes to rel=author proposal, note examples so far don't need it, class="author vcard" enough for WP default themes
# [21:35] <Loqi> [[h-entry]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=h-entry&diff=65054&oldid=65053&rcid=101431 * Tantek * (+642) /* Parser Compatibility */ proposed: time.entry-date[datetime] in the absence of "published", evidence, WP default themes 2011-2014.
# [21:36] <@tantek> KevinMarks, following your musing thought, there's a concrete proposal with citation for "entry-date" ^^^ for backcompat with WP themes 2011-2014.
# [21:36] <@tantek> I'll leave it to you and kylewm to vote with your code, implementation or lack there of :)
# [21:40] <Loqi> [[h-entry]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=h-entry&diff=65055&oldid=65054&rcid=101432 * Tantek * (-63) /* Proposed Additions */ move u-featured to a solid proposed addition, since there are 2+ indieweb sites with multiple posts using it in the wild
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# [22:16] <Loqi> [@Wpsonar] ISO - Responsive ...: http://wpsonar.com/iso-responsive-wordpress-woocommerce-theme-photography/ #Ajax #Client #Creative #Exif #Lightbox #Microformats #Minification https://twitter.com/Wpsonar/status/608367079004209152/photo/1 (http://twtr.io/10N3cqj96zC)
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# [22:49] <Loqi> [@bbirdiman] @fakebaldur @dauwhe @acutebit -- i woulda found it hard to believe you made such goofy code, but it makes sense the microformats people did. (http://twtr.io/10N6cyordjG)
# [22:53] <Loqi> [@kevinmarks] @bbirdiman @fakebaldur @dauwhe @acutebit how is e-content goofy? it makes a lot of sense in context http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry (http://twtr.io/10N70Arhhcu)
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# [23:07] <Loqi> [@bbirdiman] @kevinmarks @fakebaldur @dauwhe @acutebit -- i see microformats as the result of obsessive-compulsive need to explicitly label _everything._ (http://twtr.io/10N8DxKB5fK)
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# Session Close: Wed Jun 10 00:00:00 2015

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