/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2015-06-10 / end

Options:

Previous day, Next day

  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 10 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:07] * Joins: elux_ (~peter@206.223.191.50)
  4. # [00:07] * Quits: elux_ (~peter@206.223.191.50) (Client Quit)
  5. # [00:10] * Joins: elux_ (~peter@206.223.191.50)
  6. # [00:11] * Quits: elux (~peter@206.223.191.50) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  7. # [00:13] * Quits: Left_Turn (~Left_Turn@unaffiliated/turn-left/x-3739067) (Remote host closed the connection)
  8. # [00:16] * Quits: elux_ (~peter@206.223.191.50) (Quit: Leaving...)
  9. # [00:20] * Joins: elux (~peter@206.223.191.50)
  10. # [00:23] * Quits: elux (~peter@206.223.191.50) (Client Quit)
  11. # [00:30] * Quits: Zegnat (~zegnat@78-69-211-20-no68.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: zzzZZZzzzZZZ)
  12. # [00:40] * Quits: benborges (~benborges@2a02:a03f:1616:6b00:8e73:6eff:fe75:52ef) (Quit: Gone..., I'll be back later..)
  13. # [01:26] * Quits: ben_thatmustbeme (~quassel@c-50-169-211-67.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  14. # [01:27] * Joins: ben_thatmustbeme (~quassel@2601:196:8200:4929:f66d:4ff:fe22:70a8)
  15. # [01:31] * Quits: ben_thatmustbeme (~quassel@2601:196:8200:4929:f66d:4ff:fe22:70a8) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  16. # [01:32] * Joins: ben_thatmustbeme (~quassel@2601:196:8200:4929:f66d:4ff:fe22:70a8)
  17. # [02:01] * Quits: csarven (~csarven@84-73-123-134.dclient.hispeed.ch) (Quit: http://csarven.ca/#i left.)
  18. # [02:10] * Quits: @tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-190.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: tantek)
  19. # [02:24] * Joins: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@h109.124.232.68.dynamic.ip.windstream.net)
  20. # [02:44] * Joins: elux (~peter@64.231.209.207)
  21. # [02:44] * Quits: elux (~peter@64.231.209.207) (Client Quit)
  22. # [03:20] * Joins: fuzzyhorns (~fuzzyhorn@73.38.57.191)
  23. # [05:10] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-190.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com)
  24. # [05:10] * ChanServ sets mode: +o tantek
  25. # [05:11] * Quits: fuzzyhorns (~fuzzyhorn@73.38.57.191) (Remote host closed the connection)
  26. # [05:12] * Joins: fuzzyhorns (~fuzzyhorn@73.38.57.191)
  27. # [05:40] * Quits: @tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-190.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: tantek)
  28. # [05:40] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-190.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com)
  29. # [05:40] * ChanServ sets mode: +o tantek
  30. # [05:42] * Quits: gRegorLove (~me@c-73-140-189-21.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  31. # [05:49] * ben_thatmustbeme is still lost at times on why p- and not u-
  32. # [05:49] <ben_thatmustbeme> <a class="p-author h-card" href="http://martin.example.org/">Martin</a>
  33. # [05:50] <ben_thatmustbeme> why wouldn't that be u-author ?
  34. # [05:56] <aaronpk> it appears to have the same parsed result either way, not sure
  35. # [06:03] <@tantek> aaronpk: only because the "u-* h-*" parsing fix hasn't happened yet in implementations except for mf2py
  36. # [06:05] <@tantek> see http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#Nested_h-.2A_objects.27_.22value.22_property
  37. # [06:05] <@tantek> ben_thatmustbeme: to answer your question, we may end up allowing either and then expanding the authorship algorithm to handle both
  38. # [06:06] <@tantek> which would then put a slight preference on u-author since by getting the author's URL you can likely get more information than just their name
  39. # [06:07] * Quits: @tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-190.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: tantek)
  40. # [06:08] <ben_thatmustbeme> so the non-technical answer is really what data you are focusing on as the primary item
  41. # [06:09] <aaronpk> at some point i need to see some sort of written sumary about what's changed in microformats parsing
  42. # [06:09] <aaronpk> hard to follow the IRC chatter
  43. # [06:15] * Quits: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@h109.124.232.68.dynamic.ip.windstream.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  44. # [07:06] * Joins: dym_cx (~dym_cx@ip25053451.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
  45. # [07:31] * Quits: @KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@172.56.38.129) (Remote host closed the connection)
  46. # [07:31] * Joins: eschnou (~eschnou@244.46-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
  47. # [07:34] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-190.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com)
  48. # [07:34] * ChanServ sets mode: +o tantek
  49. # [07:47] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@2607:fb90:2704:675c:117:5cc4:73bb:fca0)
  50. # [07:47] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks_
  51. # [07:57] * Quits: eschnou (~eschnou@244.46-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  52. # [08:15] * Joins: kez (~quassel@inet2.evalesco.com)
  53. # [08:16] * Quits: dym_cx (~dym_cx@ip25053451.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
  54. # [08:28] * Quits: kez (~quassel@inet2.evalesco.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  55. # [08:29] * Joins: kez (~quassel@chello080109023159.2.14.vie.surfer.at)
  56. # [08:44] * Quits: ChiefRA (~RA@unaffiliated/chiefra)
  57. # [08:52] <Loqi> [[hcalendar-authoring]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hcalendar-authoring&diff=65056&oldid=45319&rcid=101433 * Hendrick * (+198) /* Related Pages */
  58. # [08:54] * Quits: kez (~quassel@chello080109023159.2.14.vie.surfer.at) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  59. # [08:55] * Joins: kez (~quassel@inet2.evalesco.com)
  60. # [08:56] * Joins: Zegnat (zegnat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-xplfvympvfkdcbjw)
  61. # [09:06] * Joins: ChiefRA (~RA@unaffiliated/chiefra)
  62. # [09:16] * Joins: csarven (~csarven@84-73-123-134.dclient.hispeed.ch)
  63. # [09:22] * Joins: eschnou (~eschnou@183.57-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
  64. # [09:34] * Joins: chiui (~chiui@h-213.61.228.26.host.de.colt.net)
  65. # [09:42] * Joins: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.136)
  66. # [09:52] * Joins: pfefferle_ (~pfefferle@213.144.11.130)
  67. # [09:53] * Quits: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.136) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  68. # [09:53] * pfefferle_ is now known as pfefferle
  69. # [10:09] * Joins: KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  70. # [10:09] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks__
  71. # [10:12] * Quits: @KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@2607:fb90:2704:675c:117:5cc4:73bb:fca0) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  72. # [10:37] * Joins: Left_Turn (~Left_Turn@unaffiliated/turn-left/x-3739067)
  73. # [10:38] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  74. # [10:38] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks_
  75. # [10:40] * Quits: @KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  76. # [10:48] * Joins: KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  77. # [10:48] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks__
  78. # [10:50] * Quits: @KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  79. # [10:53] * Quits: @tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-190.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: tantek)
  80. # [10:56] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  81. # [10:56] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks_
  82. # [10:57] * Quits: @KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  83. # [10:57] * Joins: KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  84. # [10:57] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks__
  85. # [11:00] * Quits: @KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  86. # [11:15] * Quits: eschnou (~eschnou@183.57-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  87. # [11:28] <csarven> Dear LazyMF , Are @rel self and bookmark changed in mf2?
  88. # [11:42] * Joins: adactio (~adactio@212.42.170.121)
  89. # [11:42] * ChanServ sets mode: +o adactio
  90. # [11:56] * Quits: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.130) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  91. # [11:59] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  92. # [11:59] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks_
  93. # [12:01] * Quits: @KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  94. # [12:02] <Loqi> [@wpscouts] Author hReview : Ajouter une Evaluation étoilée à WordPress et des Témoignages d'Utilisateurs http://wpscouts.com/author-hreview/ via @wpscouts (http://twtr.io/10PHvGTUnW8)
  95. # [12:02] * Joins: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.130)
  96. # [12:03] * Joins: KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  97. # [12:03] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks__
  98. # [12:05] * Quits: @KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  99. # [12:06] * Joins: glennjones (~glennjone@cpc18-brig15-2-0-cust225.3-3.cable.virginm.net)
  100. # [12:11] <KevinMarks> csarven: you mean rel=me ?
  101. # [12:11] <KevinMarks> rel=self is a weird Atom thing
  102. # [12:20] * Quits: glennjones (~glennjone@cpc18-brig15-2-0-cust225.3-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  103. # [12:22] * Joins: glennjones (~glennjone@cpc18-brig15-2-0-cust225.3-3.cable.virginm.net)
  104. # [12:24] * Joins: eschnou (~eschnou@2a02:a03f:8d8:8700:227:10ff:fe64:feb4)
  105. # [12:32] * Quits: glennjones (~glennjone@cpc18-brig15-2-0-cust225.3-3.cable.virginm.net) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  106. # [12:33] * Joins: glennjones (~glennjone@cpc18-brig15-2-0-cust225.3-3.cable.virginm.net)
  107. # [12:39] * Quits: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.130) (Quit: pfefferle)
  108. # [13:06] * Joins: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.130)
  109. # [13:27] * Quits: @KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  110. # [13:29] <Loqi> [@hirameki] (掘り返し) h：1130 ひらめいったーをAutoPagerizeのMicroformatsに対応させる。させろ from id:fuba http://ryogrid.net/idea/twit/1130 (http://twtr.io/10PRkRrb0hi)
  111. # [13:33] <csarven> KevinMarks IIRC from mf1, "self bookmark" was used as a permalink
  112. # [13:33] <csarven> I suppose in mf2, its equivalent is u-url
  113. # [13:34] <csarven> Yeap: http://microformats.org/wiki/hEntry#What_about_rel_bookmark
  114. # [14:35] * Quits: netweb (~netweb@unaffiliated/netweb) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  115. # [14:35] * Joins: netweb (~netweb@unaffiliated/netweb)
  116. # [15:02] * Quits: netweb (~netweb@unaffiliated/netweb) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  117. # [15:07] * Joins: netweb (~netweb@CPE-137-147-139-75.lnse7.win.bigpond.net.au)
  118. # [15:07] * Quits: netweb (~netweb@CPE-137-147-139-75.lnse7.win.bigpond.net.au) (Changing host)
  119. # [15:07] * Joins: netweb (~netweb@unaffiliated/netweb)
  120. # [15:23] * Quits: glennjones (~glennjone@cpc18-brig15-2-0-cust225.3-3.cable.virginm.net) (Read error: No route to host)
  121. # [15:23] * Joins: glennjones (~glennjone@cpc18-brig15-2-0-cust225.3-3.cable.virginm.net)
  122. # [15:26] * Joins: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@ip-64-134-100-55.public.wayport.net)
  123. # [15:50] * Quits: fuzzyhorns (~fuzzyhorn@73.38.57.191) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  124. # [15:54] * Quits: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.130) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  125. # [15:57] * Joins: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.130)
  126. # [16:02] * Quits: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.130) (Quit: pfefferle)
  127. # [16:05] * Joins: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.130)
  128. # [16:06] * Quits: eschnou (~eschnou@2a02:a03f:8d8:8700:227:10ff:fe64:feb4) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  129. # [16:09] * Joins: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  130. # [16:11] * Joins: eschnou (~eschnou@2a02:a03f:8d8:8700:227:10ff:fe64:feb4)
  131. # [16:17] <ben_thatmustbeme> do any implementations of the parser support the p-audio yet?
  132. # [16:18] * Quits: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@ip-64-134-100-55.public.wayport.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  133. # [16:21] <ben_thatmustbeme> or rather u-audio
  134. # [16:25] * Quits: ben_thatmustbeme (~quassel@2601:196:8200:4929:f66d:4ff:fe22:70a8) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  135. # [16:26] <kylewm> csarven: rel-self is an Atom thing, not part of microformats
  136. # [16:26] <kylewm> rel-bookmark is equivalent of u-url, yes, though there is proposed backcompat parsing for it (supported in mf2py only right afaik)
  137. # [16:26] <kylewm> right now* afaik
  138. # [16:27] <kylewm> (oh sorry, I didn't see KevinMarks already replied about re-self)
  139. # [16:28] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  140. # [16:28] <csarven> I was talking about self *and* bookmark together. It is about the current document's permalink.
  141. # [16:29] <csarven> "bookmark external" would be for.. external links
  142. # [16:38] <kylewm> there's no rel-self defined for html at all
  143. # [16:38] <kylewm> with or without bookmark
  144. # [16:40] * Quits: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.130) (Quit: pfefferle)
  145. # [16:41] * Quits: eschnou (~eschnou@2a02:a03f:8d8:8700:227:10ff:fe64:feb4) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  146. # [16:41] * Joins: eschnou (~eschnou@2a02:a03f:8d8:8700:227:10ff:fe64:feb4)
  147. # [16:43] * Joins: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.130)
  148. # [16:43] * Joins: fuzzyhorns (~fuzzyhorn@www.vpn.zipcar.com)
  149. # [16:45] <csarven> kylewm OKie.. then I'm mistaken. I don't remember why I had self in the first place. Probably pre-2007 stuff.
  150. # [16:46] <kylewm> csarven: possibly for Pubsubhubbub?
  151. # [16:46] <csarven> I really can't remember. No big deal :)
  152. # [16:51] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  153. # [16:51] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks_
  154. # [16:53] * Joins: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@ip-64-134-100-55.public.wayport.net)
  155. # [16:58] <kylewm> KevinMarks_: hullo, seeing a different encoding problem now. when the test case doesn't define a charset, BS4 guesses, and in the case of Tantek Çelik it guesses windows-1252
  156. # [16:59] <kylewm> "If you happen to know a document’s encoding ahead of time, you can avoid mistakes and delays by passing it to the BeautifulSoup constructor as from_encoding."
  157. # [16:59] <kylewm> do you think we should pass in utf-8 always? maybe just for all tests?
  158. # [17:12] * Quits: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@ip-64-134-100-55.public.wayport.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  159. # [17:13] * Joins: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@ip-64-134-100-55.public.wayport.net)
  160. # [17:21] * Joins: KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  161. # [17:21] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks__
  162. # [17:22] <@KevinMarks__> Will that override actual encoding? There are lots of sites that use non utf8 encodings, especially Chinese and Japanese
  163. # [17:23] <@KevinMarks__> If it just changes default that's good.
  164. # [17:23] <kylewm> do you think we should pass in utf-8 always? maybe just for all tests?
  165. # [17:23] <@KevinMarks__> The Unicode dammit stuff tried to deal with guessing encoding
  166. # [17:23] <kylewm> blargh
  167. # [17:24] <kylewm> no, it overrides
  168. # [17:24] <kylewm> yeah but it guesses wrong on these short samples
  169. # [17:24] <kylewm> even with chardet installed, it guessed wrong for t's name
  170. # [17:24] * Quits: @KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  171. # [17:24] <kylewm> >>> soup.original_encoding
  172. # [17:24] <kylewm> 'ISO-8859-2'
  173. # [17:25] <@KevinMarks__> We could just add encoding to the test
  174. # [17:25] <kylewm> yeah that's what i will propose
  175. # [17:25] <kylewm> <meta charset="utf-8"> fixes in
  176. # [17:25] <@KevinMarks__> I mean the meta tag for it, not a change to the test runner
  177. # [17:26] <@KevinMarks__> Yes
  178. # [17:26] <kylewm> collapsing whitespace and ignoring extraneous keys didn't reduce the number of failing tests as much as I'd hoped
  179. # [17:26] <@KevinMarks__> The real scary case is when the encoding varies within a pagw
  180. # [17:27] <@KevinMarks__> This used to be a big problem with blogs copy and pasting quotes
  181. # [17:28] <@KevinMarks__> And if they had a windows nonbreaking space char in 0x80 the utf8 decoder would throw an exception
  182. # [17:28] <kylewm> UnicodeDammit.detwingle :)
  183. # [17:32] * Joins: ben_thatmustbeme (~quassel@2601:196:8200:4929:f66d:4ff:fe22:70a8)
  184. # [17:33] * Quits: @KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  185. # [17:34] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  186. # [17:34] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks_
  187. # [17:34] * Quits: @KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  188. # [17:35] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  189. # [17:35] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks_
  190. # [17:49] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@70-36-139-190.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com)
  191. # [17:49] * ChanServ sets mode: +o tantek
  192. # [17:54] * Quits: eschnou (~eschnou@2a02:a03f:8d8:8700:227:10ff:fe64:feb4) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  193. # [17:54] <ben_thatmustbeme> so in going through as2 there are a couple of things that i think make sense, but just had questions on
  194. # [17:54] <ben_thatmustbeme> first was supporting multiple sources for audio / video / picture tags
  195. # [17:55] <@tantek> depends on *why* you're publishing multiple sources
  196. # [17:55] <ben_thatmustbeme> right now they would all get clumped under just "audio" correct?
  197. # [17:55] <ben_thatmustbeme> well for video its about browser support
  198. # [17:55] <ben_thatmustbeme> a reader would need both if they want to re-include
  199. # [17:55] <@tantek> if you can answer that question, then we can look at the proper HTML markup, whether it's different formats for different UA support, or different resolutions for devices, or different sizes for bandwidths
  200. # [17:56] <@tantek> nope, for video it's all 3
  201. # [17:56] * Quits: chiui (~chiui@h-213.61.228.26.host.de.colt.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  202. # [17:56] <@tantek> and that's where we start asking/looking for real world publishing examples of multiple sources of audio / video / picture
  203. # [17:56] <@tantek> to determine how examples should mark them up
  204. # [17:56] <@tantek> or rather, to determine *what* specific problems the examples should show solutions for
  205. # [17:57] <@tantek> rather than attempting to solve an arbitrary m x n x o cubespace of possibilities
  206. # [17:58] <ben_thatmustbeme> this is where I was testing pin13's support
  207. # [17:58] <ben_thatmustbeme> https://ben.thatmustbe.me/static/test.html
  208. # [17:59] <ben_thatmustbeme> more of told me that it doesn't support u-audio grabbing src= value
  209. # [17:59] <@tantek> more of?
  210. # [18:01] <ben_thatmustbeme> s/more of told me that it/actually it just confirmed that pin13s parser/
  211. # [18:01] <Loqi> ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: actually it just confirmed that pin13s parser doesn't support u-audio grabbing src= value
  212. # [18:01] <ben_thatmustbeme> http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2Fstatic%2Ftest.html
  213. # [18:02] <@KevinMarks_> Looks like mf2py isn't normalising urls http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2Fstatic%2Ftest.html&html=&pretty=on
  214. # [18:03] <ben_thatmustbeme> but that shows properly parsed values. the question is how to group the multiple audio files which are just alternates
  215. # [18:03] <ben_thatmustbeme> that looks like 4 seperate files in the parsed version
  216. # [18:04] * Joins: KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@2607:fb90:5b8:8cfb:5f5a:f02a:eb9f:e0da)
  217. # [18:04] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks__
  218. # [18:04] <kylewm> KevinMarks_: it normalises them for me https://kylewm.com/services/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2Fstatic%2Ftest.html
  219. # [18:05] <ben_thatmustbeme> added a p-name too so it has something better in there
  220. # [18:05] <kylewm> possibly you aren't passing url to the parser?
  221. # [18:06] <@tantek> ben_thatmustbeme: "just alternates" is ambiguous
  222. # [18:06] * Quits: @KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  223. # [18:06] <@tantek> alternates in what dimension(s)?
  224. # [18:07] <ben_thatmustbeme> alternate encodings of the same video content, they are grouped in an <audio> tag which is intended for that
  225. # [18:10] * Quits: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@ip-64-134-100-55.public.wayport.net) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  226. # [18:12] <@tantek> is anyone publishing that?
  227. # [18:15] <ben_thatmustbeme> audio tag i am already using though i don't rewrite code for multiple versions yet
  228. # [18:15] <ben_thatmustbeme> in indieweb not sure anyone is, outside of indieweb it shouldn't be too hard to find some samples
  229. # [18:16] <@KevinMarks__> It's less common with audio, as mp3 is ubiquitous. Rarer to see m4a these days
  230. # [18:18] <@KevinMarks__> Also rarer to see different quality choices for audio based on bandwidth
  231. # [18:18] <aaronpk> silo example of different encodings of the same video content: youtube
  232. # [18:21] * Quits: kez (~quassel@inet2.evalesco.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  233. # [18:22] <@tantek> right this is my point - we need examples of multiple sources on real world sites
  234. # [18:22] <@tantek> in order to come up with *practical* examples for such
  235. # [18:22] <@tantek> in my experience I've seen more JS randomness for doing weird format detection stuff
  236. # [18:23] <@tantek> than use of multie <source> audio or video :/
  237. # [18:23] <@tantek> hence the challenge to actually show a real world example with *markup* for multiple sources
  238. # [18:23] <aaronpk> i actually used to publish multiple encodings of my videos on my site, but can't find the examples anymore
  239. # [18:24] <aaronpk> but that was pre-HD days, so it was like 320p vs 480p
  240. # [18:24] <ben_thatmustbeme> I only do one right now because i haven't built that part out yet. Wasn't going to bother until i fixed up mobilepub
  241. # [18:25] <@tantek> people also do weird UA-detection stuff on the server and then only serve one source etc.
  242. # [18:25] <@tantek> point is - I'd say ditch the multi-source examples for now
  243. # [18:26] <@tantek> rather, ditch the *theoretical* multi-source examples, and if anyone objects, ask for the same kinds of real world example citations that we're asking for above
  244. # [18:26] <aaronpk> as a publisher, I would much rather publish only full 1080p HD because rendering multiple formats is annoying and takes a long time
  245. # [18:27] <ben_thatmustbeme> agreed, transcoding is annoying
  246. # [18:28] <ben_thatmustbeme> though it can be pretty important for mobile
  247. # [18:28] <ben_thatmustbeme> ideally the format wars can just be relegated to "in the future browser makers will finally just support 1"
  248. # [18:29] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  249. # [18:29] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks_
  250. # [18:29] <@tantek> ben_thatmustbeme: agreed that in theory it can be pretty important for mobile - but if it is actually important, then finding real world examples, and thus documenting them, should be easy
  251. # [18:29] <aaronpk> that's becoming less and less true tho, because my phone now gets faster internet than my office
  252. # [18:29] <ben_thatmustbeme> aaronpk: same here, haha, we have DSL in our office
  253. # [18:30] <ben_thatmustbeme> so i can accept that for now, a single <source> is sufficient
  254. # [18:30] <ben_thatmustbeme> until need arises
  255. # [18:30] <ben_thatmustbeme> my second question was on supporting language of an h-entry
  256. # [18:31] <ben_thatmustbeme> though i know tantek already said (other channel) that it can be difficult to convince publishers to include such information
  257. # [18:31] * Quits: @KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@2607:fb90:5b8:8cfb:5f5a:f02a:eb9f:e0da) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  258. # [18:32] * Joins: KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  259. # [18:32] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks__
  260. # [18:34] <ben_thatmustbeme> My last question thus far will likely get relagated to "real world examples" which is what I will be working on soon. Its on having some way to convey a "type" of h-entry or action taken
  261. # [18:35] <ben_thatmustbeme> I will be publishing any activity i do, as an h-feed
  262. # [18:35] <@tantek> ben_thatmustbeme: yes, my point is that there must be specific incentive for authors to do something before they will, and do it right (keep it up to date)
  263. # [18:35] <ben_thatmustbeme> but while posts you can determine things like "like" from the existance of u-like-of, ways to determine create of a post vs edit of a post are not so clear
  264. # [18:35] * Quits: @KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  265. # [18:35] <@tantek> without such incentive, it doesn't matter what others (parser devs, readers, etc.) *want*, the authors will either ignore them, or worse, copy / paste from a template and get it wrong, or neglect it and let it get out of sync
  266. # [18:36] <ben_thatmustbeme> unless there is a bunch of u-edit / u-create etc
  267. # [18:36] <@tantek> huh? topic switch? confused
  268. # [18:36] <ben_thatmustbeme> sorry, moved off the second question as it didn't seem to be getting a response
  269. # [18:36] <@tantek> sorry, I'm on the CSS telcon so trying to multitask ;)
  270. # [18:36] <ben_thatmustbeme> and the language thing was just more of a curiousity
  271. # [18:37] <@tantek> anyway, historically, lang attribute has been pretty crappy
  272. # [18:37] <@tantek> especially lang=en, due to aforementioned template/copy/paste problem
  273. # [18:37] <@tantek> it's the simple proof that authors won't care or will get wrong, things they don't have sufficient incentive to get right
  274. # [18:37] <ben_thatmustbeme> ahh true, a lot of peopel jsut copy paste that
  275. # [18:37] <@tantek> therefore it is better to *not* ask them to do something, then to ask them, and have them get it wrong and provide *noise*
  276. # [18:38] * Quits: Zegnat (zegnat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-xplfvympvfkdcbjw) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  277. # [18:38] <@tantek> something which lots of wishful thinkers continue to get wrong in terms of asking authors to do extra work
  278. # [18:39] <ben_thatmustbeme> switching to other question. I will be publishing data on creating / editing / deleting posts. an h-feed of things done, not actual posts.
  279. # [18:39] <ben_thatmustbeme> i already do this with incoming events (though i have yet to have anyone edit a reply or anything)
  280. # [18:39] <@tantek> edits are actual posts
  281. # [18:40] <@tantek> also - this is probably more of an #indiewebcamp topic so let's take it there
  282. # [18:40] * Joins: gRegorLove (~me@c-73-140-189-21.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  283. # [18:40] <ben_thatmustbeme> okay
  284. # [18:42] * Quits: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.130) (Quit: pfefferle)
  285. # [18:47] * Quits: @adactio (~adactio@212.42.170.121) (Quit: adactio)
  286. # [18:55] <@KevinMarks__> Language of an entry I'd look at Stephanie Booth for examples
  287. # [18:55] <@tantek> KevinMarks: could you explain author incentive though?
  288. # [18:56] <@KevinMarks__> http://climbtothestars.org/wordpress/basic-bilingual/
  289. # [18:56] <@KevinMarks__> Steph posts in English and French, and posts a summary in the other language
  290. # [18:57] <@KevinMarks__> And wrote a WordPress plugin for other people to use too
  291. # [18:59] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  292. # [18:59] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks_
  293. # [19:00] <@KevinMarks_> She uses both visible [fr] [en] markup and lang on the hentry
  294. # [19:01] * Quits: fuzzyhorns (~fuzzyhorn@www.vpn.zipcar.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  295. # [19:01] * Quits: @KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  296. # [19:02] * Joins: chiui (~chiui@2001:5c0:1400:a::495)
  297. # [19:02] <@tantek> KevinMarks - but why? what's the incentive to do so besides markup geekery?
  298. # [19:03] <@tantek> what code consumes that markup and does anything with it?
  299. # [19:03] * @tantek says as a fellow markup geek
  300. # [19:06] * Joins: KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  301. # [19:06] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks__
  302. # [19:07] <@KevinMarks__> Steph's deeper point is about perception of language use
  303. # [19:07] <@KevinMarks__> We are all imperfectly multilingual in different ways
  304. # [19:08] <@KevinMarks__> Assuming that a text has a single language is an oversimplification
  305. # [19:09] * Quits: @KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  306. # [19:12] <@KevinMarks__> Which Google insists on, to the point of telling you not to use more than one language as they treat it as a bug
  307. # [19:12] * Quits: elf-pavlik (~elf-pavli@lorea/elf) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  308. # [19:12] <@KevinMarks__> https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/182192?hl=en
  309. # [19:13] <@tantek> wow
  310. # [19:14] <@tantek> classic programmer-think: your natural behavior is too complex for our code, change your natural behavior to conform to our limited world model
  311. # [19:14] <@KevinMarks__> They do use rel=alternate hreflang
  312. # [19:14] <@tantek> that's got to be an existing anti-pattern defined somewhere
  313. # [19:14] <@KevinMarks__> https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/189077?hl=en
  314. # [19:14] <@tantek> programmer blinders or something
  315. # [19:15] <@tantek> could you document/cite that on microformats.org/wiki/rel-alternate
  316. # [19:15] <@tantek> ?
  317. # [19:15] <@KevinMarks__> Stephanie gave a tech talk about it at Google (I invited her to)
  318. # [19:15] * Quits: chiui (~chiui@2001:5c0:1400:a::495) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  319. # [19:15] <@KevinMarks__> Also programmers assuming there is a simple country:language mapping
  320. # [19:16] <aaronpk> ah if only it were that simple
  321. # [19:16] <@KevinMarks__> Stephanie lives in Switzerland, the French speaking bit
  322. # [19:16] <@KevinMarks__> Many us sites assume that their .ch site should be in German
  323. # [19:19] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  324. # [19:21] * Quits: @KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  325. # [19:25] * Joins: elf-pavlik (~elf-pavli@lorea/elf)
  326. # [19:28] <KevinMarks> the hreflang is already documented there
  327. # [19:30] <@tantek> is the google citation already there?
  328. # [19:30] <@tantek> the support.google citation that is
  329. # [20:00] <csarven> KevinMarks I'm in Bern, CH (mostly German in this Canton). https://developers.google.com/structured-data/testing-tool/ displays content in English (outer) and German (inner).
  330. # [20:07] <KevinMarks> Google thinks that they can do better by algorithm than by explicit setting
  331. # [20:07] <KevinMarks> and a lto of the time they are right
  332. # [20:07] <KevinMarks> but some of the time they have misdefined the problem
  333. # [20:08] <KevinMarks> assuming things have a single language is one of those times
  334. # [20:17] * Joins: KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  335. # [20:17] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks__
  336. # [20:19] * Quits: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  337. # [20:20] * Joins: chiui (~chiui@2001:5c0:1400:a::419)
  338. # [20:49] * Quits: chiui (~chiui@2001:5c0:1400:a::419) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  339. # [21:03] * Joins: dym_cx (~dym_cx@ip25053451.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
  340. # [21:22] * Quits: glennjones (~glennjone@cpc18-brig15-2-0-cust225.3-3.cable.virginm.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  341. # [21:23] * Joins: glennjones (~glennjone@cpc18-brig15-2-0-cust225.3-3.cable.virginm.net)
  342. # [21:25] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  343. # [21:25] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks_
  344. # [21:27] * Quits: @KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  345. # [21:27] * Quits: elf-pavlik (~elf-pavli@lorea/elf) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  346. # [21:28] * Joins: eschnou (~eschnou@200.1-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
  347. # [21:31] * Joins: chiui (~chiui@2001:470:71:41b:863a:4bff:fe19:60c4)
  348. # [21:36] * Joins: elf-pavlik (~elf-pavli@lorea/elf)
  349. # [22:21] * Quits: iwaim (~iwaim@2001:2c0:40e:2002:0:4:14:80) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  350. # [22:24] * Quits: Erkan_Yilmaz (~Erkan_Yil@wikimedia/Erkan-Yilmaz) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  351. # [22:26] * Joins: iwaim (~iwaim@2001:2c0:40e:2002:0:4:14:80)
  352. # [22:33] * Quits: chiui (~chiui@2001:470:71:41b:863a:4bff:fe19:60c4) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  353. # [22:36] * Joins: Erkan_Yilmaz (~Erkan_Yil@dslb-188-098-067-125.188.098.pools.vodafone-ip.de)
  354. # [22:36] * Quits: eschnou (~eschnou@200.1-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  355. # [22:44] * Quits: Erkan_Yilmaz (~Erkan_Yil@dslb-188-098-067-125.188.098.pools.vodafone-ip.de) (Changing host)
  356. # [22:44] * Joins: Erkan_Yilmaz (~Erkan_Yil@wikimedia/Erkan-Yilmaz)
  357. # [22:51] * Quits: dym_cx (~dym_cx@ip25053451.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de)
  358. # [23:00] * Joins: KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  359. # [23:00] * ChanServ sets mode: +o KevinMarks__
  360. # [23:02] * Quits: @KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  361. # [23:40] * Quits: elf-pavlik (~elf-pavli@lorea/elf) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  362. # [23:41] * Joins: elf-pavlik (~elf-pavli@lorea/elf)
  363. # Session Close: Thu Jun 11 00:00:00 2015

Previous day, Next day

Think these logs are useful? Then please donate to show your gratitude (and keep them up, of course). Thanks! — Krijn