/irc-logs / freenode / #microformats / 2015-07-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 02 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
  3. # [00:01] * Joins: fuzzyhorns (~fuzzyhorn@73.38.57.191)
  4. # [00:02] * Quits: warehouse13 (~Left_Turn@unaffiliated/turn-left/x-3739067) (Remote host closed the connection)
  5. # [00:03] * Quits: csarven (~csarven@84-73-123-134.dclient.hispeed.ch) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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  7. # [00:07] <@tantek> !tell ChiefRA have you tried posting hListing test pages with all the properties in your latest hListing proposal and seeing which ones the Google Structured Data Testing Tool shows that it found?
  8. # [00:07] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
  9. # Session Close: Thu Jul 02 00:10:24 2015
  10. #
  11. # Session Start: Thu Jul 02 00:10:24 2015
  12. # Session Ident: #microformats
  13. # [00:10] * Disconnected
  14. # [00:11] * Attempting to rejoin channel #microformats
  15. # [00:11] * Rejoined channel #microformats
  16. # [00:11] * Topic is 'http://microformats.org/wiki Logs: http://logbot.glob.com.au/?c=freenode%23microformats&s=today'
  17. # [00:11] * Set by tantek!~tantek@50-0-164-83.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net on Mon Aug 12 00:38:23
  18. # [00:11] -ChanServ- [#microformats] Welcome to #microformats. Logs at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats
  19. # [00:11] #microformats url is http://microformats.org
  20. # [00:11] * Quits: krijnhoetmer (~krijnhoet@ip4da4a84d.direct-adsl.nl) (Remote host closed the connection)
  21. # [00:11] <@tantek> however we've been gradually unlocking pages when requested, and so far nothing has gone wrong with that
  22. # [00:12] <@tantek> gRegorLove: so if you see something you want to edit and it won't let you, speak up and one of the admins in the channel should be able to help
  23. # [00:13] <gRegorLove> I was trying to fix the <code> on this line. It's open from the previous line. http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing##use+the+first+p-name
  24. # [00:13] <gRegorLove> Just minor formatting
  25. # [00:14] <Loqi> [[Special:Log/protect]] unprotect * Tantek * unprotected "[[microformats2-parsing]]"
  26. # [00:14] <@tantek> ok let's see what happens :)
  27. # [00:15] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing]] M http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=65090&oldid=65089&rcid=101471 * GRegorLove * (+7) /* parse an element for class microformats */ + </code>
  28. # [00:16] * gRegorLove shakes first at MediaWiki autocapitalization of usernames
  29. # [00:16] * @tantek just noticed KevinMarks got retweeted by an SEO bot
  30. # [00:16] <gRegorLove> s/first/fist/
  31. # [00:16] <Loqi> gRegorLove meant to say: shakes fist at MediaWiki autocapitalization of usernames
  32. # [00:18] <@tantek> the image on this tweet is hilarious https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/616306330412802048
  33. # [00:18] <Loqi> [@kevinmarks] I managed to represent http://schema.org in #microformats http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/616306330412802048/photo/1 (http://twtr.io/119KiZPTR0o)
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  44. # [00:26] <csarven> <div class="p-episode h-RadioEpisode"> vs. <div property="episode" typeof="RadioEpisode"> -- which of those is easier to understand / self-explanatory?
  45. # [00:33] <@tantek> which of those do you need to learn two new attributes? and then also learn the vocabulary separately?
  46. # [00:33] * Quits: csarven (~csarven@84-73-123-134.dclient.hispeed.ch) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  47. # [00:35] <@tantek> !tell csarven did you update your hListing examples to use h-cite in some cases? do you still have live hListing or h-listing examples in the wild that you think are appropriate/correct? if so can you add to: http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting#Examples_in_the_Wild ? Thanks!
  48. # [00:35] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
  49. # [00:37] * Joins: csarven (~csarven@84-73-123-134.dclient.hispeed.ch)
  50. # [00:38] <csarven> tantek Reminder that I don't have access to the mf wiki.
  51. # [00:38] <Loqi> csarven: tantek left you a message 3 minutes ago: did you update your hListing examples to use h-cite in some cases? do you still have live hListing or h-listing examples in the wild that you think are appropriate/correct? if so can you add to: http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting#Examples_in_the_Wild ? Thanks!
  52. # [00:41] * @tantek kicks self
  53. # [00:41] <@tantek> csarven, would you be opposed to creating a new account csarven2 until we can resolve database permissions problems?
  54. # [00:42] * Joins: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@108-69-72-147.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net)
  55. # [00:42] <csarven> tantek You didn't answer my questions ;) but came up with two different ones. We can of course play this game of "what's easier". If one to make a claim like "easier", they'd better be prepared to back it up with some data e.g., surveys on users/authors/developers/or whoever is being tested for mf/RDFa usage. Otherwise, stuff like microformatschema.html are just opinion pieces. (Not to imply...
  56. # [00:42] <csarven> ...that opinions are unwanted or useless)
  57. # [00:43] <rhiaro> tantek, what do you mean 'also learn the vocabulary separately'?
  58. # [00:43] <csarven> But what gets to me is that it is mentioned as if it is some fact.
  59. # [00:43] <csarven> Pretty photo though.
  60. # [00:44] <csarven> tantek No worries! Instead of csarven2 how about tantekneedstofixwikipermissions ? :P
  61. # [00:44] <Loqi> [[search-engines]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=search-engines&diff=65091&oldid=65086&rcid=101472 * Tantek * (+55) use web archive link to Google support since their latest update lost info
  62. # [00:45] <@tantek> csarven - that user name would be a DRY violation of the existing issue on the wiki :P
  63. # [00:45] <csarven> :)
  64. # [00:45] <rhiaro> Also... I feel like pros and cons of overloading 'class' vs using property and typeof about balance
  65. # [00:45] <@tantek> csarven - yes, a lot of the "data" is anecdotal in hearing horror stories from web designers and developers about RDFa confusion, and about relief when using microformats instead.
  66. # [00:46] <@tantek> professional web designers and developers literally don't care or don't even think of any issues with overloading 'class' vs using property and typeof
  67. # [00:46] <@tantek> typically that's architecture astronomy talk
  68. # [00:47] <@tantek> csarven - to be fair, we've seen similar anecdotal horror stories from web designers and developers about microdata confusion, and about relief when using microformats instead.
  69. # [00:47] <@tantek> not surprising since RDFa and microdata are not that different any more, since RDFa dropped rel etc.
  70. # [00:48] <rhiaro> we have anecdotal evidence about things getting messed up when styles are applied to microformats classes, too
  71. # [00:48] <@tantek> in maintenance updates, yes
  72. # [00:49] <KartikPrabhu> rhiaro: what do you mean "overloading class" ?
  73. # [00:49] <@tantek> which seemingly undoes the "advantage" of using microformats classes for styling
  74. # [00:49] <KartikPrabhu> also CSS can be applied to anything including tag-names so the same problem
  75. # [00:49] <@tantek> however, if you're only building and launching a simple fairly static site, using microformats classes for styling is no problem at all, and a huge efficiency boost
  76. # [00:50] <@tantek> KartikPrabhu: the term "overloading class" typically comes from a worldview that was artificially limited about what the class attribute was/is for
  77. # [00:50] <KartikPrabhu> class attribute != CSS hook
  78. # [00:50] <@tantek> people not realizing it really was intended to be multipurpose in HTML
  79. # [00:50] <@tantek> KartikPrabhu: bingo
  80. # [00:51] <@tantek> per http://tantek.com/2012/353/b1/why-html-classes-css-class-selectors
  81. # [00:51] * rhiaro is learning
  82. # [00:52] <KartikPrabhu> i can even style using [property=startDate] according to https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/Attribute_selectors so RDFa has the same problem wrt styling using specific properties
  83. # [00:52] <@tantek> rhiaro: frankly, this type of limited worldview tends to (anecdotally) be held/assumed/presented by SemWeb folks that have a very limited worldview of HTML overall, e.g. often assuming HTML is only for presentation
  84. # [00:53] <@tantek> KartikPrabhu: except that it's so awkward to use RDFa [property] for styling that no one bothers to. microformats classes are much more tempting to style because it's so easy to do so with the class selector
  85. # [00:53] <KartikPrabhu> but if we are speaking hypothetical that is a hytopthetical counter argument ;)
  86. # [00:54] * KartikPrabhu says something smug with a typo sheesh!
  87. # [00:54] <@tantek> I'm going to agree with you because I don't understand your reply :)
  88. # [00:54] <KartikPrabhu> :P
  89. # [00:55] * @tantek nods his head and hopes no one notices.
  90. # [00:55] <KartikPrabhu> in any case, personally I have found mf2 easier to write and also update even if CSS styles break than RDFa stuff so I'll stick to mf2 for now
  91. # [00:55] <csarven> tantek Preference for styling @class over @property may simply be (i.e., Occam's razor) that people have seen and use @classes far longer than @properties
  92. # [00:56] <csarven> That is entirely different than somehow "class" being superior to "property" for styling.
  93. # [00:56] <csarven> At least it is not inherent.
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  96. # [00:57] <rhiaro> It's not too much of a stretch that developers who don't know about mf and see code with microformats classes assume they are CSS related. If they see property attributes and don't recognise it, they can at least google it as something they don't know rather than making a wrong assumption about what it's for
  97. # [00:58] <@tantek> csarven - reason for preference irrelevant. existence of it is all that's being pointed out.
  98. # [00:58] <@tantek> and pre-existing such preference (AKA what devs already know how to do) is sufficient for superiority
  99. # [00:58] * csarven still doesn't see how x is easier than y.
  100. # [00:58] <@tantek> because devs know x more than y already
  101. # [00:59] <@tantek> csarven and it's pretty much 100% of anecdotal examples of devs trying both in real world situations / professional site development
  102. # [00:59] <csarven> It is not just the attribute here that's in question.
  103. # [00:59] <@tantek> regardless of whether you can't see a theoretical differnce
  104. # [00:59] <@tantek> not seeing a theoretical difference is irrelevant
  105. # [00:59] <csarven> What makes the class=value easier than property=value as far as semantic annotations go?
  106. # [00:59] <@tantek> as compared to actual experience in the wild
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  108. # [01:00] <@tantek> usually means the theories need to be adjusted per the data
  109. # [01:00] <@tantek> not vice versa
  110. # [01:00] <@tantek> csarven, as already said, one possibility is existing web dev knowledge of class attribute, and how to use it, how to use with multiple class values, etc.
  111. # [01:01] <@tantek> knowledge *and* experience doing so
  112. # [01:01] <@tantek> usually makes things easier
  113. # [01:03] <@tantek> anyway - not really interested in exploring theoretically any more - you're welcome to go get your own anecdotal data by teaching workshops in semantic markup and gathering results
  114. # [01:03] <Loqi> [[google-search]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=google-search&diff=65092&oldid=65088&rcid=101473 * Tantek * (+26) use web archive link to Google support since their latest update lost info
  115. # [01:05] * csarven is not convinced =)
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  117. # [01:06] <Loqi> [[hlisting]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=hlisting&diff=65093&oldid=64721&rcid=101474 * Tantek * (+333) /* implementations */ Google Search and Rich snippets supports consuming hListing
  118. # [01:06] <@tantek> csarven - you're welcome to cling to theory if that's what you prefer - your lack of being theoretically convinced is not going to convince anyone else either.
  119. # [01:07] <csarven> I don't see how you draw up this "theoretical" card? Which of my comments came across as theoretical to you? I am merely asking for some evidence or support of this "easier" claims.
  120. # [01:07] <csarven> All I get back is perceptions.
  121. # [01:07] <csarven> Well, that has a lot to do with who you hang out.
  122. # [01:07] <csarven> .. with.
  123. # [01:08] <KartikPrabhu> why is this a debate? If people find RDFa easier/convenient/pretty they should use that, if others find the same for mf2 they should use that
  124. # [01:08] <csarven> Even if it is "easier", can you measure it? How much easier is it? Does it matter? In monetary terms, how much cheaper is "easier"?
  125. # [01:09] <KartikPrabhu> seems like the Mac vs PC debate from the early 10s
  126. # [01:11] <csarven> There are issues here at play: documentation, community support, "dogfooding" ..
  127. # [01:11] <csarven> And I think those things have far more influence on "easier" than the @class vs. @property "debate".
  128. # [01:11] <@tantek> csarven - see above, current "data" is anecdotal mix of in-person experience, and people reporting in IRC, the wiki etc.
  129. # [01:11] <KartikPrabhu> how do those differ between RDFa and mf2?
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  132. # [01:12] <@tantek> anyway - since you don't want to see those comments, can't help you with "All I get back is perceptions."
  133. # [01:12] <KartikPrabhu> both have pretty fine documentation, both have "community support"...
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  135. # [01:12] <@tantek> KartikPrabhu: not really, there is no "RDFa community"
  136. # [01:13] <@tantek> there's various semweb lists, channels etc. certainly no real cluster around RDFa
  137. # [01:13] * Joins: fuzzyhorns (~fuzzyhorn@73.38.57.191)
  138. # [01:13] <@tantek> e.g. RDFa WG closed 2015-03-27 - that was closest thing to a "community" that existed. http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/
  139. # [01:14] * csarven copy/pastes his last two lines.
  140. # [01:15] <csarven> Anyhew.. this h-card is off to bed. Catch you all folks later :)
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  142. # [01:16] <@tantek> !tell ChiefRA to help push hListing along, I documented the Google support explicitly with a link to my earlier analysis that I did a while ago: http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting#implementations
  143. # [01:16] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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  145. # [02:07] <Loqi> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=to-do&diff=65094&oldid=64892&rcid=101475 * Tantek * (+305) start microformats2 updates with pages that need updating to microformats2
  146. # [02:10] <Loqi> [@lubiana] Dafür habe ich jetzt voll viel über microformats und semantische-tags gelernt. (http://twtr.io/119scDAgJnU)
  147. # [02:20] <Loqi> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=65095&oldid=64679&rcid=101476 * Tantek * (+71) update wiki home page for microformats2 since they've been stable for over a year, simplify some of the text before the specs, separate rel microformats to reduce confusion, classic microformats
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  149. # [02:22] <Loqi> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=65096&oldid=65095&rcid=101477 * Tantek * (-75) /* Get Started */ simplify wording
  150. # [02:22] <Loqi> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=65097&oldid=65096&rcid=101478 * Tantek * (+7) /* Classic Microformats */ classic
  151. # [02:24] <Loqi> [[microformats2]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2&diff=65098&oldid=65040&rcid=101479 * Tantek * (+33) note lessons learned from other syntaxes
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  404. # [12:12] <Loqi> [@mfhepp] @kevinmarks @danbri @denials Anyway, I do not think we can resolve the dispute via twitter, & personally I think #microformats are history (http://twtr.io/11Amo8i9eV4)
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  442. # [18:37] <csarven> What is the expected value for p-author?
  443. # [18:38] <csarven> Can it contain multiple values?
  444. # [18:38] <csarven> "Alice Bob Carl"
  445. # [18:38] <csarven> Or will that be treated as one item (I presume this is the case)
  446. # [18:40] <gRegorLove> It would be treated as one author, yes. You would want multiple p-author for multiple authors
  447. # [18:40] <aaronpk> every property can have multiple values which is why in the parsed JSON everything is an array
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  449. # [18:41] <gRegorLove> I embed my h-card when I publish p-author on my site. I think that's common, but it's not required
  450. # [18:41] <aaronpk> if you have multiple p-author elements, the parsed result will be like "author":["Alice","Bob","Carl"]
  451. # [18:42] <ben_thatmustbeme> multiple h-cards
  452. # [18:42] <ben_thatmustbeme> with p-author, or would you do p-author and multiple h-cards beneath that?
  453. # [18:42] <csarven> In the case of h-cite, would it be appropriate to use p-author along with p-publication in the same class?
  454. # [18:42] <gRegorLove> One p-author, multiple child h-cards
  455. # [18:42] <ben_thatmustbeme> unmung.com has a nice spot to plug in html and see what it parses as
  456. # [18:44] <csarven> Hmm, no, p-publication and p-author shouldn't go together.
  457. # [18:44] <gRegorLove> I'm not familiar with p-publication
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  459. # [18:50] <csarven> Can mf2 properties chain its values to its descendent elements e.g., <span class=p-author><span class=h-card/></span> ? Or do they look for the values from their text nodes?
  460. # [18:52] <aaronpk> i believe in that case the h-card appears as a child element rather than as the "author" property
  461. # [18:52] <csarven> re: multiple authors, I think I'm stuck with either using p-author incorrectly or drop its use. I'm getting data from an API which returns random text for the author field. Can't be bothered to clean/normalize that
  462. # [18:56] <csarven> So, if this wasn't already discussed, if mf2 (or mf3?) allowed chaining, there'd be an ever clear way to map mf<->RDFa. That's not a justification for it to exist in any way.
  463. # [18:57] <aaronpk> what do you mean chaining?
  464. # [18:57] <csarven> Sorry, I should be more clear here. I was thinking of things at once.
  465. # [18:57] <csarven> ^two things at once.
  466. # [18:57] <aaronpk> there's quite a bit of chaining going on here http://www.kevinmarks.com/microformatschema.html
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  468. # [18:59] <Loqi> [@Shelia_Kay] @thatjohn http://satellitecomplaints.com/exede-reviews/?wpcrp=1#hreview-693 #ExedeSucks (http://twtr.io/11BPPSF5MVb)
  469. # [19:01] <csarven> 1. possibility to complete attribute-value declarations through child elements 2. and the possibility to describe a new entity through the value of its parent.
  470. # [19:02] <csarven> both appear to be possible, with the exception that every entity is sort of like a bnode
  471. # [19:03] <KevinMarks_> every entity can have a url - in that example they all do I think
  472. # [19:03] <csarven> As I don't think something like this makes sense: <s class="u-uid"><s class="hcard/></s>
  473. # [19:04] <csarven> Having a url is a property of that thing.
  474. # [19:04] <csarven> Unless mf2 treats url as the way to identity things
  475. # [19:04] <csarven> or uid or hwatever
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  477. # [19:05] <KevinMarks_> yes, urls identify things in microfromats
  478. # [19:06] <csarven> And if you don't have an url, the thing you've described can't be identified? (URI is to "identify", URL is to "locate". Aside: In Tantek's beautiful words that I'd like reuse: this is "architecture astronomy talk")
  479. # [19:07] <gRegorLove> I was about to ask what the use-case is, to better grasp what you're referring to. :)
  480. # [19:07] <KevinMarks_> you're free to append a # to the URLs to satisfy your pedantry
  481. # [19:08] <gRegorLove> Here's a real-world example of my p-author with h-card within it, if it helps. h-* always parses as a child element. http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgregorlove.com%2Fnotes%2F2015%2F06%2F24%2F7%2F
  482. # [19:10] <csarven> Irrelevant at this point. mf doesn't acknowledge URIs. In any case, the question remains re: "urls identify things in microfromats", in the absence of an url, can a thing be identified?
  483. # [19:11] <rhiaro> uid?
  484. # [19:11] <csarven> gRegorLove I'm merely asking about what mf2 is doing. Don't need use-cases to explain myself :)
  485. # [19:11] <gRegorLove> Sorry, just having a hard time understanding. I'm no mf pro, though
  486. # [19:12] <gRegorLove> Identified how?
  487. # [19:12] <csarven> gRegorLove That's a good example thanks
  488. # [19:13] <gRegorLove> You're welcome
  489. # [19:14] <csarven> rhiaro url/uid/xyz are all properties. KevinMarks_ 's statement sounds like if url's are present, that would be the way to identify that thing. I'm asking what do you call "that" which has no url. Same applies for uid or any other property.
  490. # [19:14] <KevinMarks_> no, you need to explain *why* you want to do that
  491. # [19:14] <csarven> gRegorLove "value": "http:\/\/gregorlove.com\/assets\/img\/profile.jpg\r\n\t\t\tby gRegor Morrill" is not clear to me.
  492. # [19:14] <csarven> Dude, I'm asking what mf2 is doing. I don't have to prove anything to you!
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  495. # [19:15] <csarven> It is a simple question.
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  498. # [19:16] <ben_thatmustbeme> csarven: the default in many of these groups is "real world example" otherwise its just doing theoretical exercises that may be pointless
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  500. # [19:17] <gRegorLove> csarven: I think the php-mf2 parser used in my example is not correct. It should be pulling the p-name from the h-card child, "gRegor Morrill" in this instance.
  501. # [19:17] <gRegorLove> The issue's been raised and hopefully php-mf2 will be patched soon for that example.
  502. # [19:18] <KevinMarks> oops, fell off
  503. # [19:18] <ben_thatmustbeme> h-entries in mf2 could have no u-url, I don't see any problem with that.
  504. # [19:18] * ben_thatmustbeme comes in to the conversation a bit late
  505. # [19:18] <KevinMarks> are you trying to link to the mf2 object?
  506. # [19:18] <csarven> I'm asking about how something works or is called. Do you or do you not have a name for something which has no url? (As it was stated that "yes, urls identify things in microfromats". I'm asking about the opposite.)
  507. # [19:19] <KevinMarks> are you trying to address part of the parsed data?
  508. # [19:19] <csarven> ben_thatmustbeme Okay, in that example, there is no way to identify that h-entry correct? Other than perhaps its location in the document?
  509. # [19:19] <ben_thatmustbeme> as far as I know there is no name for it in mf2 world, its just parsed data at that point.
  510. # [19:20] <csarven> Cool, thanks!
  511. # [19:20] <ben_thatmustbeme> csarven: nope, though you could possibly use an ID but thats outside of MF2 parsing
  512. # [19:20] <csarven> In the RDF world, something like this is called along the lines of a bnode. I was looking for a similar term or treatment from the mf side.
  513. # [19:20] <ben_thatmustbeme> mf2 parsers just parse "a document" that could be fetched by parsing the HTML for a fragment
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  515. # [19:20] <KevinMarks> right, you could link to the h-entry if it has an id
  516. # [19:21] <KevinMarks> or you could use a fragmention link to its text
  517. # [19:21] <ben_thatmustbeme> you can use any external method you wish actually,
  518. # [19:21] <ben_thatmustbeme> thats entirely outside of MF2 land
  519. # [19:21] <csarven> Cool, got it!
  520. # [19:21] <KevinMarks> or you could parse the page and get the nth h-entry
  521. # [19:24] <aaronpk> interesting that the concept doesn't have a name in mf2, most likely because it doesn't matter
  522. # [19:25] <csarven> That's totally fine. I was only trying to determine whether it exists or not.
  523. # [19:25] <KevinMarks> is there a CSS selector for nth-of-class ?
  524. # [19:25] <ben_thatmustbeme> i think so, there is in jquery
  525. # [19:26] <ben_thatmustbeme> .h-entry:nth-of-type(2)
  526. # [19:26] <gRegorLove> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/%3Anth-of-type
  527. # [19:27] <gRegorLove> Beat me to it
  528. # [19:27] <gRegorLove> :)
  529. # [19:27] <ben_thatmustbeme> :D
  530. # [19:27] <csarven> !tell tantek I've dropped h-listings. Using h-cite now. Defaulting to "broken" way of using p-author in h-cite because I am lazy (as a developer) to clean/normalize its value where it is retrieved from an external resource, and it contains multiple authors along with some other random text.
  531. # [19:27] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
  532. # [19:27] <KevinMarks> no, that's by type
  533. # [19:28] <aaronpk> in RDF-land what is the opposite of a bnode?
  534. # [19:28] <csarven> IRI
  535. # [19:28] <aaronpk> web page : email :: IRI : bnode
  536. # [19:29] <csarven> IRI or bnode
  537. # [19:29] <csarven> webpage/email are IRIs
  538. # [19:30] <aaronpk> oh, i was trying to make a joke, but failed because I don't have a word for a bnode with an address
  539. # [19:30] <csarven> Not sure why you are sarcastic
  540. # [19:31] <aaronpk> not sure where you're seeing the sarcasm there. normally i have to work pretty hard for my typed text to be read as sarcastic
  541. # [19:31] * csarven is confused
  542. # [19:31] <KevinMarks> oh, that does work gRegorLove
  543. # [19:31] <KevinMarks> not clear from the docs
  544. # [19:31] <csarven> *[class] probably
  545. # [19:32] <aaronpk> I am writing a pretty lengthy email, which should probably live as a web page somewhere, and then realized that this email is like a web page with no URL
  546. # [19:32] <csarven> It has Message-ID
  547. # [19:33] <KevinMarks> !tell tantek https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/%3Anth-of-type shoudl show that you can address classes as well as types (or is that not generally true?)
  548. # [19:33] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
  549. # [19:35] <csarven> *[class]:nth-of-type(2) should work
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  551. # [19:35] <KevinMarks> https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/616395539387527168
  552. # [19:35] <Loqi> [@kevinmarks] @anshublog twitter is email with no to: field (I think that is Sergey Brin's description) (http://twtr.io/119rabs01zU)
  553. # [19:36] <aaronpk> lol
  554. # [19:42] <KevinMarks> it works for me in chrome and safari: http://dabblet.com/gist/420ad9c379e07b526d74
  555. # [19:43] <KevinMarks> and firefox
  556. # [19:43] <KevinMarks> though stack overflow has several answers saying it doesn't dating from 2013
  557. # [19:44] <KevinMarks> so csarven, a natural way of addressing microformats within a page is by css class selector
  558. # [19:44] <KevinMarks> if you want to point to them structurally
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  560. # [19:48] <csarven> Could just as well be XPath
  561. # [19:50] <ben_thatmustbeme> though generally if you are pulling something within a feed i'd recommend against using nth-of-type as thats will change as soon as anything is added
  562. # [19:51] * ben_thatmustbeme wonders how much browsers respect the "only one of an ID" and if [id]:nth-of-type would work
  563. # [19:51] <csarven> In a way XPath is actually a lot more powerful to refer/address/name/point to things in a document as it can traverse or look for certain conditions.
  564. # [19:51] <KevinMarks> right, tantek uses files with long collections of posts queried with xpath as the backend to his site
  565. # [19:52] <ben_thatmustbeme> bi-monthly storage files
  566. # [19:53] <KevinMarks> with month defined using his personal modified calendar
  567. # [19:59] <csarven> How would one use u-uid for the ISBN?
  568. # [20:00] <KevinMarks> for u-uid it would need to be URL
  569. # [20:00] <KevinMarks> p-uid if it's an inline value
  570. # [20:00] <csarven> Didn't know p-uid existed
  571. # [20:01] <KevinMarks> u- and p- are parsing directives
  572. # [20:01] <aaronpk> in mf2, the p- u- e- dt- prefixes are *only* a parsing indicator, not part of the vocabulary
  573. # [20:01] <aaronpk> that's why they don't appear in the parsed result
  574. # [20:01] <ben_thatmustbeme> still not clear on exactly what e- is for actually
  575. # [20:01] <KevinMarks> though h- does
  576. # [20:01] <csarven> entry?
  577. # [20:01] <ben_thatmustbeme> keep forgetting to look at that
  578. # [20:01] <KevinMarks> e- means 'the html contents of this element'
  579. # [20:01] <ben_thatmustbeme> ahhhh
  580. # [20:02] <KevinMarks> useful for h-entry, for example
  581. # [20:02] <ben_thatmustbeme> e-content is the only place i ever saw it
  582. # [20:02] <aaronpk> 'e-*' for embedded markup properties http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2-prefixes#microformats_2_prefixes
  583. # [20:03] <KevinMarks> losing the prefixes on parsing does mean it's harder to round-trip
  584. # [20:03] <KevinMarks> if something could a url or text, your consuming code has to sniff it
  585. # [20:03] <ben_thatmustbeme> i don't think it makes sense to round-trip though, its not 1-to-1 so it doesn't really matter
  586. # [20:04] <KevinMarks> well, also if I'm trying to construct a page from the parsed output, I have to assume a type
  587. # [20:04] <aaronpk> chances are you also have to know about the vocabulary, so that's fine
  588. # [20:04] <ben_thatmustbeme> so long as you can generate some html that will parse back to the same results, there are infinitely many options
  589. # [20:05] <aaronpk> for example, comments-presentation
  590. # [20:05] <csarven> I think it might be confusing to tell in situations where an URL is used as p-url
  591. # [20:05] <aaronpk> <span class="p-url">http://example.com</span>
  592. # [20:06] <ben_thatmustbeme> unlinked url but still contains url as text
  593. # [20:06] <csarven> not sure what the difference is in the end.
  594. # [20:06] <csarven> or how it will/should be treated
  595. # [20:06] <aaronpk> no difference in the end, shows up as "url":"http://example.com"
  596. # [20:06] <csarven> p- is more like for displaying (for the human)
  597. # [20:07] <KevinMarks> url is clear enough
  598. # [20:07] <KevinMarks> we've defined that as a general property like name
  599. # [20:08] <csarven> aaronpk Right. I was giving an example to KevinMarks' point. p-url will give you url, but going back to p-url or u-url is not clear. Actually this holds true for all properties.
  600. # [20:08] <aaronpk> right. and it doesn't matter
  601. # [20:08] <KevinMarks> well, it can matter - I got this when trying to make the indiecards
  602. # [20:08] <csarven> The preference/default for some properties may be that "okay, if you see url, go with u-url"
  603. # [20:08] <aaronpk> the way we've been using it, we go from parsed result back to HTML when doing things like displaying reply context or comments
  604. # [20:09] <aaronpk> in which case we know abotu the specific vocabulary of h-entry, so we can make assumptions about how to use the properties
  605. # [20:09] <ben_thatmustbeme> the only difference between <span class="p-url">http://example.com</span> and <span class="u-url" href="http://example.com">example.com</span> will be the value of Name
  606. # [20:10] <ben_thatmustbeme> so really u-url has more fidelity
  607. # [20:10] <csarven> Right. It just illustrates that it is a case by case or whatever the preference may be for the consumer/publisher.
  608. # [20:11] <ben_thatmustbeme> yes. well, publisher, the consumer parses it by the parser
  609. # [20:14] <KevinMarks> aaronpk: I had to do https://github.com/kevinmarks/unmung/blob/master/indiecard.html#L23
  610. # [20:14] * Quits: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@108-69-72-147.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  611. # [20:15] <csarven> So, when an h- type doesn't have a property does that mean that it is disallowed or can one use any property as they like?
  612. # [20:15] <csarven> h-cite for example mentions u-uid but not p-uid.
  613. # [20:16] <csarven> In my case (and I imagine others do something similar here), I use p-uid for the ISBN of an h-cite
  614. # [20:16] <KevinMarks> because benwerd's h-card has an html note
  615. # [20:17] <KevinMarks> (this is the 'writing code in templates' problem I was talking about last night
  616. # [20:18] <KevinMarks> i should probably move that logic to the python side
  617. # [20:18] <Loqi> +1
  618. # [20:24] * Joins: chiui (~chiui@2001:470:71:41b:863a:4bff:fe19:60c4)
  619. # [20:26] <ben_thatmustbeme> p-uid of an isbn would make sense i think
  620. # [20:31] * Joins: KartikPrabhu (~kartik@108-69-72-147.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net)
  621. # [20:37] <csarven> ben_thatmustbeme Yea, I think so too. ISBN is a string any way
  622. # [20:39] <ben_thatmustbeme> i believe there was an isbn class for MF1
  623. # [20:39] <ben_thatmustbeme> http://microformats.org/wiki/isbn
  624. # [20:40] <csarven> Right.
  625. # [20:41] <csarven> p-isbn would be a sub-property of p-uid
  626. # [20:45] <csarven> So, p-isbn p-issn .. would be a more appropriate than p-uid, especially in the case of h-cite
  627. # [20:45] <csarven> Plenty of examples listed here http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples
  628. # [20:48] <KevinMarks> right, the isbn is a more specific identifier than uid
  629. # [20:50] <csarven> I am going to go ahead and use p-isbn. See you all on the other side!
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  642. # [23:00] <Loqi> [@Shelia_Kay] @exede @NHRA Read before you sign a contract. Worst ISP ever. http://satellitecomplaints.com/exede-reviews/?wpcrp=1#hreview-693 (http://twtr.io/11Bk0AT1Pyx)
  643. # [23:07] * Quits: chiui (~chiui@2001:470:71:41b:863a:4bff:fe19:60c4) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  644. # [23:14] <jgay> tantek, any chance you could make rel-jslicense to the existing-rel-values list? More sites have started to use it in the past year and more sites and frameworsk ahve complained to us about it not passing w3c validation
  645. # [23:15] <@tantek> jgay - is there a spec for it? even just a wiki page would be a good start
  646. # [23:15] <Loqi> tantek: csarven left you a message 3 hours, 47 minutes ago: I've dropped h-listings. Using h-cite now. Defaulting to "broken" way of using p-author in h-cite because I am lazy (as a developer) to clean/normalize its value where it is retrieved from an external resource, and it contains multiple authors along with some other random text.
  647. # [23:15] <Loqi> tantek: KevinMarks left you a message 3 hours, 42 minutes ago: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/%3Anth-of-type shoudl show that you can address classes as well as types (or is that not generally true?)
  648. # [23:15] * Joins: eschnou (~eschnou@150.173-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be)
  649. # [23:15] <jgay> tantek, you mean <http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-jslicense>?
  650. # [23:16] <@tantek> hah! thanks :)
  651. # [23:28] * Quits: eschnou (~eschnou@150.173-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  652. # [23:30] * Quits: jgay (~jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  653. # [23:31] <@tantek> drat - was just trying to help with rel-jslicense edits
  654. # [23:36] <Loqi> [[rel-jslicense]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-jslicense&diff=65099&oldid=52969&rcid=101480 * Tantek * (+1058) note no current issues, verify EFF live example in wild, note research of previous examples / other techniques used for indicating js license, mv Consumers to Implementations
  655. # [23:37] <@tantek> !tell jgay I tried to improve the rel-jslicense spec a bit, preserving all the intent/meaning I think you put in, with additional explicit prose / description for publishers / consuming code.
  656. # [23:37] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
  657. # [23:37] <@tantek> !tell jgay you mentioned "More sites have started to use it in the past year" re: rel-jslicense - could you links to their pages that use rel=jslicense to: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-jslicense#Examples_in_the_wild ? Thanks!
  658. # [23:37] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
  659. # [23:39] <@tantek> based on there being a written spec, real world usage of rel=jslicense by someone other than the author, and presence of real world consuming code, I definitely think its worthy of being added to existing-rel-values for HTML5 additions
  660. # [23:40] <@tantek> anyone object to rel-jslicense? if you could document your issues at http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-jslicense#Issues that would be appreciated. seeing no other input I'm going to add it to existing-rel-values HTML5 values - though jgay could have done that himself too!
  661. # [23:44] <Loqi> [[rel-jslicense]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=rel-jslicense&diff=65100&oldid=65099&rcid=101481 * Tantek * (+81) /* Examples in the wild */ add FSF.org, note use on a href
  662. # [23:49] <Loqi> [[existing-rel-values]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=existing-rel-values&diff=65101&oldid=64898&rcid=101482 * Tantek * (-102) move js-license from brainstorming to HTML5 proposed additions, could have been here before, but certainly now with real world publishing examples and consuming code!
  663. # Session Close: Fri Jul 03 00:00:00 2015

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