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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 27 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #microformats
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  6. # [01:02] <Loqi> [@cbxi] ＠lov　　 IP.Blog 2.6: SEO Improvements and Microformats - http://newz.scriptz-team.info/IPS-News-And-Updates/078819-IP-Blog-2-6-SEO-Improvements-and-Microformats.html (http://twtr.io/123hrNuwbQY)
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  33. # [07:07] <Loqi> [@AllTheTwits] has been sorting through Microformats-discuss emails. (http://twtr.io/124Fdnzb47U)
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  35. # [07:07] <@tantek> those were the days
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  46. # [09:04] <Loqi> [@shopl] RT @ProjectPeachUK: We've #played with #microformats. Love the #idea of #marking up our #business data to #machines as well as #humans! #sb… (http://twtr.io/124SCREHPm8)
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  53. # [10:21] <KevinMarks> twas brian: https://twitter.com/briansuda/status/881493
  54. # [10:21] <Loqi> [@briansuda] has been sorting through Microformats-discuss emails. (http://twtr.io/44rZ)
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  81. # [18:06] <Loqi> [@nodenpm] microformat-shiv (1.0.0): https://www.npmjs.com/package/microformat-shiv A cross browser JavaScript Microformats 2 parser (http://twtr.io/125Ex4mHb00)
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  83. # [18:25] <Loqi> [@JasonWeathersby] RT @dietrich: Prototyped a Microformats panel for @FirefoxDevTools today. https://twitter.com/dietrich/status/623627610619277312/photo/1 (http://twtr.io/125Gf3CYHd8)
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  87. # [18:40] <rhiaro> aaronpk: I wondered the same
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  89. # [18:42] <aaronpk> so the question i had was why are the prefixes listed under the vocabularies?
  90. # [18:43] <aaronpk> e.g. http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#h-adr h-adr lists "p-locality" as one of the properties, but in reality, the parsed result shows just "locality" and can have a value there by one of many different prefixes
  91. # [18:43] <rhiaro> I think that having prefixes listed under the vocabularies is confusing for people who haven't realised they're for parsers, and it looks like they're constraints on how terms should be used
  92. # [18:44] <rhiaro> I also think listing properties under h-*s - whilst I understand they're a guide to which make properties in which contexts - is also confusing as it implies constraints that aren't there
  93. # [18:44] <aaronpk> well for the h-adr vocabulary, there is a fixed list of properties that are acceptable
  94. # [18:45] <rhiaro> There are some cases where only certain properties actually make sense, sure
  95. # [18:45] <rhiaro> But there's no technical reason that if someone wanted to mix it up they couldn't do that
  96. # [18:45] <aaronpk> it's the parsing vs vocab issue. the parser doesn't care about the vocab
  97. # [18:45] <rhiaro> Indeed
  98. # [18:45] <aaronpk> but the point of h-adr or h-entry is to devine vocab
  99. # [18:45] <aaronpk> s/devine/define
  100. # [18:45] <Loqi> aaronpk meant to say: but the point of h-adr or h-entry is to define vocab
  101. # [18:45] <aaronpk> in which case you want to see a fixed set of properties
  102. # [18:46] <rhiaro> One of the things I noted about mf2 was that it doesn't over constrain like many RDF vocabs do - I wouldn't want to presume how people are going to want to use terms in the future
  103. # [18:46] <rhiaro> But if those lists *are* constraints, that definitely needs to be made clearer anyway
  104. # [18:46] <aaronpk> i guess the lists are meant to be constraints as much as you can constrain what people do on their websites
  105. # [18:47] <rhiaro> And, what's the point of of the constraints anyway?
  106. # [18:47] <aaronpk> the point is so consumers have a known set of properties to look at
  107. # [18:47] <rhiaro> With RDF, such constraints allow you to infer further information that's not explicit. But nobody is expecting that with micformats.
  108. # [18:47] <aaronpk> sure you can put a "p-fiddlydits" property on an h-entry, but that's not going to mean anything to a consumer so they'll just ignore it
  109. # [18:48] <rhiaro> Well, exactly. Consumers are going to look for terms they are interested in anyway
  110. # [18:48] <aaronpk> right, so that's the point of the list of properties
  111. # [18:49] <rhiaro> So it's like guidence - this is what consumers probably want, so this is what you should probably provide
  112. # [18:49] <aaronpk> i think that's a fair statement
  113. # [18:49] <rhiaro> When I was running through it a while ago, there were defintely h-*s that didn't have properties listed that I thought would be valid with them
  114. # [18:49] <rhiaro> I forget what now. I'll have to go through again.
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  118. # [18:58] <KevinMarks> hm, this bumps into the type versus parsing thing again
  119. # [18:58] <KevinMarks> some properties are dates, so dt- makes sense
  120. # [18:59] <KevinMarks> some are urls, so u- makes sense
  121. # [18:59] <aaronpk> but dt- is just to tell the parser where to get the value from
  122. # [18:59] <aaronpk> my point is the parsed result doesn't contain "dt-", it ends up just being "published"
  123. # [18:59] <KevinMarks> but p- and e- are trickier
  124. # [18:59] <aaronpk> e- is the only one that actually changes the parsed result
  125. # [18:59] <aaronpk> but that's a very simple rule
  126. # [18:59] <KevinMarks> right, which is the conversation we were having the other day
  127. # [18:59] <aaronpk> and doesn't depend on vocab
  128. # [19:00] <KevinMarks> the point it to converge vocabulary based on what is being published and consumed
  129. # [19:00] <rhiaro> and if you wanted a url as text but not a link on the page, you could use p-url and get the same result
  130. # [19:01] <KevinMarks> hcard and hcalendar we cheats to an extent as they were bootsrapped from existing structrues
  131. # [19:02] <aaronpk> KevinMarks: my point is the parser prefixes don't appear in the parsed result, so they aren't part of the vocabulary, they are just publishing guidelines
  132. # [19:02] <KevinMarks> so the point of http://microformats.org/wiki/process#Standard is to show convergence of property publication and consumption
  133. # [19:03] <KevinMarks> this gets tricky if things aren't consistently URLs
  134. # [19:04] <aaronpk> that's a vocab issue
  135. # [19:05] <KevinMarks> and u- is a shorthand for that
  136. # [19:05] <KevinMarks> so, yes, thinsg are overlaoded
  137. # [19:05] <aaronpk> as in, the vocab should say the "published" property is expected to be an ISO8601 timestamp, and if it's not, then the data is bad
  138. # [19:06] <KevinMarks> well, strictly this profile: http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime
  139. # [19:06] <aaronpk> similarly, the "in-reply-to" property is expected to be a URL, and if it's actually an h-cite object, the value can be found in in-reply-to.value
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  141. # [19:19] <rhiaro> starting to sound like domains and ranges being specified
  142. # [19:21] <aaronpk> ?
  143. # [19:24] <rhiaro> if the value of a property should be a certain datatype or object type, and you want to enforce that, it's very RDF-y
  144. # [19:24] <aaronpk> orly?
  145. # [19:25] <KevinMarks> well, it's lots of things - json-schema tries that too
  146. # [19:27] <aaronpk> i guess i don't see what's so bad about saying "published" must be a datetime or "url" must be a URL
  147. # [19:28] <KevinMarks> no, quite
  148. # [19:28] <KevinMarks> it's when you get into 'must be an integer between 1 and 12' that it gets annoying and people start writing validation parsers
  149. # [19:28] <rhiaro> Sure. You're probably going to get people saying you're reinventing rdf whilst pretending not to be rdf, that's all.
  150. # [19:29] <KevinMarks> but RDF is such a flexible representation format, I'm sure they can parse microformats into it usefully
  151. # [19:30] * KevinMarks must practice saying that with a straight face
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  154. # [19:51] <kylewm> !tell glennjones when you have a chance I'd love if you could review this PR https://github.com/glennjones/microformats-testrunner/pull/2 ... There's an Apache project that's apparenntly interested in using mf2j, I'd love them to be fully informed about how ready/no ready it is for production :)
  155. # [19:51] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
  156. # [19:51] * kylewm said love twice...dumb
  157. # [19:51] <aaronpk> you can never have too much love
  158. # [19:53] <@tantek> aaronpk++
  159. # [19:53] <Loqi> aaronpk has 911 karma
  160. # [19:54] <KevinMarks> kylewm++
  161. # [19:54] <Loqi> kylewm has 201 karma
  162. # [19:54] <KevinMarks> karma accepted?
  163. # [19:55] <kylewm> hehe
  164. # [19:56] <kylewm> is 911 the number for the karma police?
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  175. # [22:52] <Loqi> [[web-sign-in]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=web-sign-in&diff=65143&oldid=64403&rcid=101524 * Aaronpk * (-12)
  176. # [22:52] <@tantek> nice
  177. # [22:53] <@tantek> oh dear where did I get "RESTful" from originally when I added that?!?
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  180. # Session Close: Tue Jul 28 00:00:00 2015

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