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  16. # [04:45] <Loqi> [[xoxo-sample-code]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=xoxo-sample-code&diff=65278&oldid=37074&rcid=101666 * Kevin Marks * (+55) add github link
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  61. # [16:49] <Loqi> [@technotipz] Ultimate Guide to Microformats: Reference and Examples http://www.technotipz.com/tips-and-tricks/ultimate-guide-to-microformats-reference-and-examples/?utm_source=ReviveOldPost&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ReviveOldPost #tips (http://twtr.io/15MZixPK0yf)
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  76. # [20:10] <Loqi> [@nico_casel] Google Structured Data Testing Tool for testing #microdata , #microformats and #RDFa https://developers.google.com/structured-data/testing-tool/ #html5 (http://twtr.io/15Mrk3fqvD5)
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  83. # [21:19] <ben_thatmustbeme> aaronpk and I have been working on a jf2
  84. # [21:19] <ben_thatmustbeme> http://microformats.org/wiki/jf2
  85. # [21:20] * @tantek clicks
  86. # [21:20] <aaronpk> most of the quick iterations have been happening on https://github.com/w3c-social/Social-Syntax-Brainstorming/wiki/Minimal-Activity-Stream and in ben's converter implementation
  87. # [21:21] <@tantek> perhaps link to those from /jf2
  88. # [21:22] <ben_thatmustbeme> http://stream.thatmustbe.us/?url=<url> and https://github.com/dissolve/socialstream
  89. # [21:23] <@tantek> anyone have any better opinions on naming of jf2? or should I just start casually referring to jf2 at TPAC? ;)
  90. # [21:24] * Quits: @tantek (~tantek@210.160.37.24) (Quit: tantek)
  91. # [21:35] <kylewm> fields in jf2 are optionally multivalued?
  92. # [21:35] <Loqi> kylewm: tantek left you a message on 9/18 at 4:02pm: would appreciate your review and comment(s) on the refinement on the updated proposal on this issue: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#implied_properties_when_an_explicit_class_is_provided
  93. # [21:35] <Loqi> kylewm: tantek left you a message on 9/18 at 4:26pm: all resolved issues with implementation(s) incorporated into the microformats2 parsing spec - take a look, see if you have any qs: http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing&diff=65229&oldid=65090&rcid=101616
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  95. # [21:36] <aaronpk> kylewm: yeah
  96. # [21:38] <kylewm> well i like that a lot
  97. # [21:39] <ben_thatmustbeme> we are going back and forth on what to do if there is more than 1 item at the top level
  98. # [21:39] <ben_thatmustbeme> so I was just returning an array of objects, aaronpk suggested we contain them in a blank object and put them as children or items within that
  99. # [21:40] <ben_thatmustbeme> i am leaning toward just always containing everything in a top level object representing the page
  100. # [21:40] <aaronpk> my thought is that if there is only one thing on the page, like an h-entry, then it is best if the JSON for the page is just that object
  101. # [21:41] <aaronpk> if there is more than one object on the page, then you've got an implicit collection or feed, so it should be an object with child objects
  102. # [21:43] <ben_thatmustbeme> i would say it makes sense as either just an array or the single object (you are really asking for the item(s) in the page) or as always an object of the page with its items contained in it
  103. # [21:43] <ben_thatmustbeme> alternatively we could make the top level always an array
  104. # [21:43] <aaronpk> we probably need illustrated examples of these options
  105. # [21:43] <ben_thatmustbeme> indeed
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  108. # [21:48] <kylewm> top-level array feels icky somehow
  109. # [21:49] <aaronpk> it doesn't play well with strongly-typed languages
  110. # [21:49] <@tantek> kylewm: indeed - I think that's why the mf2 json started with items which we expanded to rels etc.
  111. # [21:49] <@tantek> lol strongly-typed languages
  112. # [21:50] <aaronpk> java and objective C come to mind as extremely popular typed languages
  113. # [21:51] <kylewm> also python, ruby
  114. # [21:51] * kylewm puts on pedant hat
  115. # [21:52] * kylewm mumbles something about static typing and takes off pedant hat
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  117. # [21:52] <aaronpk> whatev
  118. # [21:52] <aaronpk> tantek: was curious where "items" vs "children" came from, and why they aren't the same term
  119. # [21:53] <@tantek> I think they're both from the microdata JSON design IIRC
  120. # [21:53] <kylewm> top-level document/page object would be a good place to put rel values
  121. # [21:53] <@tantek> kylewm: no need for another level of hierarchy
  122. # [21:53] <aaronpk> if rel values apply to the page, and if the page has only one object, doesn't it follow that the rel values apply to that object?
  123. # [21:54] <@tantek> that's the point of the mf2 json - the top level of the JSON IS the top-level document/page object
  124. # [21:54] <@tantek> aaronpk: it does not
  125. # [21:54] <@tantek> also - for usability reasons its best to avoid mixing any kind of rel-based semantics and class-based semantics
  126. # [21:55] <aaronpk> so we do absolutely need the concept that the JSON document represents the page rather than the item on the page?
  127. # [21:55] <@tantek> RDFa 1.0 made that mistake (mixing 'rel' and 'property' attributes) and it so totally confused developers that they would markup both incorrectly
  128. # [21:55] <aaronpk> (aka a variation of the httprange14 problem)
  129. # [21:55] <@tantek> not really
  130. # [21:55] <@tantek> bringing up httprange14 is not actually ever useful
  131. # [21:56] <@tantek> as it doesn't impact any real world problems/solutions
  132. # [21:56] <aaronpk> we can talk about it without the name but it's the same thing
  133. # [21:56] <@tantek> no it's not
  134. # [21:56] <@tantek> you're confusing
  135. # [21:56] <@tantek> it
  136. # [21:56] <@tantek> range14 is about does a URL represent something real or is it just a URL *of* something real
  137. # [21:56] <@tantek> this has nothing to do with that
  138. # [21:56] <aaronpk> it's very similar
  139. # [21:56] <@tantek> not at all
  140. # [21:56] <aaronpk> more like htmlrange14
  141. # [21:57] <@tantek> hr14 is a philosophical debate - nearly useless
  142. # [21:57] <aaronpk> anyway the question stands
  143. # [21:57] <ben_thatmustbeme> basically range14 is the other side of this, its if it refers to the top level page object or the thing the items[0] represents
  144. # [21:57] <@tantek> no its not
  145. # [21:57] <ben_thatmustbeme> s/it refers to /a url refers to /
  146. # [21:57] <Loqi> ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: basically range14 is the other side of this, its if a url refers to the top level page object or the thing the items[0] represents
  147. # [21:57] <@tantek> ben_thatmustbeme: the range14 nonsense has to do with the philosophy of real objects vs. representations of them
  148. # [21:57] <aaronpk> fine drop range14
  149. # [21:57] <aaronpk> there is still a question
  150. # [21:58] <@tantek> it has nothing to do with is a document the <body> or not
  151. # [21:58] <@tantek> etc.
  152. # [21:58] <aaronpk> i don't care what you call it
  153. # [21:58] <@tantek> names do matter
  154. # [21:58] <@tantek> so do misusing names
  155. # [21:58] <@tantek> point being, an HTML doument includes everything you get back in the text/html response body
  156. # [21:58] <@tantek> so trying to artificially simplify that to "just one thing" is likely to get you into trouble
  157. # [21:59] <@tantek> rel values apply to the whole of the HTML document
  158. # [21:59] <@tantek> as in, definitively
  159. # [21:59] <@tantek> whereas say <body class="h-entry"> gives a very strong hint that the document is basically there for the purpose of delivering an entry
  160. # [21:59] <@tantek> do you see how those two statements are different?
  161. # [22:00] <aaronpk> the problem is that in most common usage, demonstrated in both our indieweb sites as well as twitter and other networks, a URL like http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/10/24/1/indieweb represents a single post
  162. # [22:00] <ben_thatmustbeme> as an example been working off of the example on the github page http://stream.thatmustbe.us/?url=https://ben.thatmustbe.me/static/test2.html
  163. # [22:00] <aaronpk> there is a single entry on the page, the entry has a bunch of properties
  164. # [22:00] <aaronpk> it would be nice if the jf2 representation would reflect that
  165. # [22:01] <@tantek> right, you can define jf2 in that way if you like
  166. # [22:01] <@tantek> that jf2 represents the primary object of the page
  167. # [22:01] <@tantek> which is not "the whole page"
  168. # [22:01] <@tantek> strictly speaking
  169. # [22:01] <@tantek> which is fine
  170. # [22:01] <@tantek> mf2 json does attempt to represent all the microformats / rel markup on the entire page - wherever it may be, however many objects there may be
  171. # [22:02] <@tantek> it's ok to focus jf2 on a more specific, minimal functionality
  172. # [22:02] <aaronpk> then the follow-up is when there is more than one item on the page, I wanted to make the jf2 representation create an "implicit" top-level object that contains the items
  173. # [22:02] <ben_thatmustbeme> hmm, the issue i can see others complaining it that we were going to do this with rel=alternate to find the jf2 of the page
  174. # [22:02] <@tantek> alternates are much more heavily abused than that already ben_thatmustbeme
  175. # [22:02] <aaronpk> the implicit top-level object would have no properties other than "children" or "items" or whatever, which is why i was asking wher ethose names came from
  176. # [22:02] <@tantek> e.g. all WordPress installs badly mis-use alternate
  177. # [22:02] <ben_thatmustbeme> if rel relates to the entire document, is rel=alternate to a jf2 that only represents the primary object
  178. # [22:03] <@tantek> from post permalinks they say rel=alternate to a feed *of the home page*
  179. # [22:03] <@tantek> *to link to
  180. # [22:03] <ben_thatmustbeme> ick
  181. # [22:03] <@tantek> aaronpk: hence the problem with any kind of implicit top level object that *sometimes* is there
  182. # [22:03] <@tantek> and sometimes not
  183. # [22:03] <@tantek> ben_thatmustbeme: yeah
  184. # [22:04] <@tantek> aaronpk: let me try to guess a real world use-case - a bunch of h-entry objects on a home page? ;)
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  186. # [22:04] <aaronpk> yep
  187. # [22:04] <aaronpk> vs someone who has actually marked up a top-levle h-feed
  188. # [22:04] <ben_thatmustbeme> so putting aside the rel alternate issue, perhaps we are going down the wrong track by trying to represent the object at all and should indeed go with only the primary item (first if there is an array of them)
  189. # [22:04] <aaronpk> basically i want those to look the same in jf2, just one doesn't have a name
  190. # [22:04] <aaronpk> since that's basically the first complaint you hear when someone starts consuming microformats feeds
  191. # [22:04] <ben_thatmustbeme> http://stream.thatmustbe.us/?url=https://ben.thatmustbe.me/
  192. # [22:06] <ben_thatmustbeme> tantek, thats exactly what brought this up me parsing my home page
  193. # [22:07] * Quits: @tantek (~tantek@210.160.37.25) (Quit: tantek)
  194. # [22:10] <aaronpk> okay this is updated now https://github.com/w3c-social/Social-Syntax-Brainstorming/wiki/Minimal-Activity-Stream
  195. # [22:10] <aaronpk> specifically check out https://github.com/w3c-social/Social-Syntax-Brainstorming/wiki/Minimal-Activity-Stream#collections
  196. # [22:16] <aaronpk> also added a note on html content https://github.com/w3c-social/Social-Syntax-Brainstorming/wiki/Minimal-Activity-Stream#html-content
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  203. # Session Close: Tue Oct 27 00:00:00 2015

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