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- # Session Start: Tue Dec 01 00:00:00 2015
- # Session Ident: #microformats
- # [00:02] * Joins: Calli (6ca2f57e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.162.245.126)
- # [00:04] <Calli> !tell tantek I had a spec comment on the 28th. Can you take a look and let me know if you need more info? http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats/20151128
- # [00:04] <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
- # [00:10] <Calli> I'm looking at the discussion on implied u- props from the 30th
- # [00:11] <@tantek> hello Calli
- # [00:11] <Loqi> tantek: Calli left you a message 7 minutes ago: I had a spec comment on the 28th. Can you take a look and let me know if you need more info? http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/microformats/20151128
- # [00:15] <Calli> I have my own perspective on implied props: I'm afraid I'm not a fan overall and I haven't implemented them yet. Will be last thing I implement if at all.
- # [00:15] <Calli> hi Tantek
- # [00:16] <Calli> One reason for reluctance is that I'm looking at mem-constrained environment and I want to dump all unecessary data as soon as possible
- # [00:17] <@tantek> Calli - they are part of the tradeoff of a huge simplification for many 90% plus simple cases for publishers with a little bit of work on the part of parsers
- # [00:17] <Calli> the Implied name property in particular looks like it could be pretty large since it will often be text content
- # [00:18] <@tantek> it's simple economics math of lowering barriers for accuracy and work for publishers (across millions) vs. a bit of work for a handful of parser devs
- # [00:18] <@tantek> Calli - if you have specific examples where implied name causes a problem, please share them!
- # [00:18] <@tantek> we are actively looking into documenting and solving any such problems
- # [00:19] <@tantek> but they must be based in real world examples
- # [00:19] <@tantek> not just "could be"
- # [00:20] <Calli> Will do next time I see one
- # [00:21] <Calli> Yeah - I was seeing real word examples
- # [00:21] <Calli> Oh is this one:
- # [00:21] <Calli> http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://blog.roku.com/blog/2015/11/23/black-friday-deals-sneak-peek-roku-se-roku-3-roku-streaming-stick-tcl-roku-tv/
- # [00:23] <Calli> Must admit I have assumed this is from implied name - haven't researched to see if it's another issue
- # [00:28] <Calli> You may well be right about the simplification, but I am still in process of convincing myself of that. It's clear that the markup is simplified. It's not yet clear to me that the mental model for authoring is simplified or that maintenance of markup is simplified. I don't have firm conclusions at this point.
- # [00:30] <@tantek> the simplification was driven specifically by web developer / designer feedback about classic mf1 markup which required explicit markup for names, urls, photos which were so common, and seemed to always require adding extra markup
- # [00:31] <@tantek> and the response to the mf2 solutions from the web design / development community has been very positive
- # [00:31] <@tantek> some of that history has been documented on the wiki on the /microformats2 page
- # [00:32] <Calli> Sounds good. It's definitely an alternative to microdata and json that don't have implied props.
- # [00:34] <@tantek> indeed - the same web developers were very confused as to why microdata/rdfa/json would come up with even more wordy approaches than classic mf1
- # [00:35] <Calli> Do you want me to make the case? LOL
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- # [00:41] <@tantek> Calli - nah, no need to spend time on it
- # [00:41] <@tantek> I mean unless you truly believe there is some ecosystem benefit to the microdata/rdfa/json approaches
- # [00:41] <@tantek> (ecosystem, as in not just "it makes parsing easier")
- # [00:42] <Calli> I believe it's a trade-off. I like "easy-to-parse", but I like "easy to explain", "easy to understand", "easy to write", and "easy to read" way more.
- # [00:46] <Calli> There's often trade-offs between easy-to-write and easy-to-read. It feels like microdata and microformats have different opinions about the relative importance of those.
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- # [00:49] <Calli> Anyway, it's probably clear, but I'm all for limiting the appearance of implied props so proposal to prevent an element that already has a use from contributing to implied prop sounds good. This change would mean that a different element could then provide the implied value though right?
- # [00:50] <@tantek> that is a good question
- # [00:50] <Calli> The change is not just that an implied prop would be suppressed in some additional cases, but that it could actually get a different value?
- # [00:50] <@tantek> I'm not sure that's a good (easily predictable) result
- # [00:51] <@tantek> I would prefer a more conservative approach, and that is that if the first element found (per the parsing spec) that could/should provide an implied property is suppressed by this new rule (by another explicit property of the same *- prefix on that element), then there is nothing implied for that property
- # [00:52] <@tantek> rather than some sort of weird fallback to another element
- # [00:52] <@tantek> that makes it easier to understand
- # [00:52] <@tantek> and provides an obvious encouragement for the publisher to be explicit in those cases (which I expect to the be the rare exception, not the 90%, and thus it makes sense to ask the publisher to be explicit)
- # [00:52] <Calli> I might be wrong - maybe the only-of-type requirement prevents what I suggested
- # [00:53] <@tantek> it should
- # [00:55] <Calli> Actually only-of-type in the existing spec isn't sufficient, would need language you suggest I think
- # [00:55] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-issues&diff=65334&oldid=65333&rcid=101723 * Tantek * (+97) /* implied properties when an explicit class is provided */ where to provide input to proposals
- # [00:55] <@tantek> If you agree with the proposed resolution to the issue, could you add your +1, and perhaps add your question / comment asking for that? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#implied_properties_when_an_explicit_class_is_provided
- # [00:56] <@tantek> "that" being the extra language to further clarify the case you noted
- # [00:56] <@tantek> like +1 with this change ...
- # [00:56] <@tantek> or +1 with this additional handling
- # [01:09] <Calli> OK. Need to think about it a bit. Did you consider a broader restriction:
- # [01:09] <Calli> Presence of any explicitly marked up p- property on the item (not element) prevents implied p- properties Presence of any explicitly marked up u- property on the item (not element) prevents implied u- properties
- # [01:09] <kylewm> tantek: could you clarify what is the use case here? "Due to indiewebcamp.com/edit use-case, this now makes sense for all implied properties."
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- # [01:13] <@tantek> kylewm - too long ago to easily reload that context in my head now / asynchronously - can you re-raise in person on Thursday and we can discuss then?
- # [01:14] <@tantek> Calli - I did, and specifically avoided it to prevent too much blocking of implied p-name
- # [01:15] <Calli> These are relevant test cases for whether the implied URL property would get a value from a different element or not:
- # [01:15] <Calli> TC1: <div class="h-x"><a href="alink"></a><area href="arealink" /></div> TC2: <div class="h-x"><a class="u-x" href="alink"></a><area href="arealink" /></div>
- # [01:15] <@tantek> real world <area> handling in general is something we need to / are re-assessing
- # [01:15] <Calli> ok
- # [01:15] <@tantek> there are use-cases for capturing the shapes of areas
- # [01:15] <@tantek> e.g. photo notes
- # [01:16] <@tantek> but we haven't quite figured out a good way of doing so
- # [01:16] <@tantek> we tried one way, but found it didn't work in the micropub serialization scenario
- # [01:16] <@tantek> so it is again an unsolved problem
- # [01:17] <@tantek> Calli - if you have real world examples of <area> usage with microformats, or even real world examples of <area> usage that could *benefit* with addition of microformats, please provide the URLs as those would provide excellent emprical data to shape proposed solutions
- # [01:18] <Calli> I don't have any uses for area for my interests, I picked a test with A and AREA because of how the spec deals with only-of-type - needed an element that could be used forimplied URL prop that wasn't of the same type as A
- # [01:20] <kevinmarks> the implied name there is from hfeed not h-feed
- # [01:20] <kevinmarks> so that is a 1->2 mapping bug
- # [01:21] <kevinmarks> the https://blog.roku.com/blog/2015/11/23/black-friday-deals-sneak-peek-roku-se-roku-3-roku-streaming-stick-tcl-roku-tv/ example
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- # [01:45] <Calli> oh right - yeah parser bug then
- # [01:46] <Calli> so i guess I don't know if I'll encounter h-feeds without names in the wild, but if I do...
- # [01:46] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-issues&diff=65335&oldid=65334&rcid=101724 * Kylewm * (+790) /* implied properties when an explicit class is provided */ suggestion: split these out per property. I suspect it only affects u-url.
- # [01:47] <kevinmarks> I wonder if implied name should include children or not
- # [01:47] <kevinmarks> tricky as with h-feed you probably don't want that, but with h-review of an h-card, you may
- # [01:48] <Loqi> [[microformats2-parsing-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki/index.php?title=microformats2-parsing-issues&diff=65336&oldid=65335&rcid=101725 * Kylewm * (-5) /* implied properties when an explicit class is provided */ simplify suggested modification to implied url prasing
- # [01:50] <@tantek> oh hey welcome back Loqi wiki diffs!
- # [01:50] * Loqi grins profusely
- # [01:50] <@tantek> kevinmarks - yes, due to nested h-card or other structures, you do want that
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- # [03:08] <Calli> kylewm makes good points about name and photo in his edit (namely that suggested changes won't really affect name because of the fallback to textContent and changes are possibly counterproductive for photo where it feels like presence of an image even if it's marked with another property is still strong enough evidence that the image is appropriate for the implied photo property)
- # [03:09] <@tantek> yes that does seem sensible
- # [03:09] <@tantek> I wonder if it is too much "smarts"
- # [03:09] <@tantek> and will make it feel unpredictable
- # [03:09] <Calli> which leaves just implied URL
- # [03:09] <@tantek> that's my only concern
- # [03:09] <@tantek> but it is only a soft concern, I can be swayed
- # [03:09] <Calli> which then makes me think that for simplicity sticking with existing spec is good enough
- # [03:10] <Calli> Is it better to provide an incorrect URL or no URL at all? How would an author detect either case? Do any of the parsers focus on authoring scenarios? Do any of them highlight implied properties or missing properties?
- # [03:11] <Calli> So having considered it, I think I'm in the camp of leave the spec as it is
- # [03:15] <@tantek> bad data is worse than no data
- # [03:16] <@tantek> so incorrect URL is worse than no URL
- # [03:16] <@tantek> in general
- # [03:16] <@tantek> ok interesting
- # [03:16] <@tantek> (re: camp of leaving spec as is)
- # [03:16] <@tantek> that's very useful to know - please feel encouraged to note that in the issue!
- # [03:16] <Calli> I agree - but then my solution would be not to imply URL (or name or photo)
- # [03:19] <Calli> Seems like you're concerned with the authoring side of things and that's why you've gone for implied properties right? But how would an author be made aware that either they are missing a value for URL where it might be expected or they are getting a value that they might not expect?
- # [03:20] <@tantek> all valid questions
- # [03:21] <@tantek> that is one of the reasons that I proposed the relatively simple rule of - if the author has specified a u-* property on an element, then no other u-* properties are implied.
- # [03:22] <@tantek> same with if the author has specified a p-* property, then no p-* properties are implied
- # [03:22] <@tantek> on that element
- # [03:22] <@tantek> that is a pretty simple rule to remember
- # [03:22] <@tantek> by specifying properties on an element, you as an author signal that you want that element to mean/do precisely *this* (whatever those properties are), and *nothing* else.
- # [03:23] <Calli> yeah - that is a good rule.
- # [03:23] <@tantek> the cross-interaction of "if you specify a p-* property then no u-* props are implied" and "if you specify a u-* property then no p-* properties are implied" works via a different simplification
- # [03:23] <kevinmarks> that is a good rule
- # [03:23] <@tantek> that is
- # [03:24] <kevinmarks> the nesting issue is trickier
- # [03:24] <@tantek> by specifying *any* property on an element, you as an author signal that you want that element to mean/do precisely *this* (whatever those properties are), and *nothing* else.
- # [03:24] <@tantek> hence why the two proposals are listed there
- # [03:24] <@tantek> in the issue
- # [03:24] <@tantek> I wanted feedback / input on both
- # [03:25] <@tantek> both are relatively simple rules, but different enough that to "new eyes" one may appear better than the other
- # [03:25] <@tantek> thus really interested in seeing recorded feedback on both
- # [03:25] <@tantek> thank you Calli kevinmarks !
- # [03:31] <Calli> On a related note: When considering parsing spec changes, do you (the community) have a large body of MF2 data that you don't want to change the meaning of? Or are changes still acceptable? If you're trying to avoid radical reinterpretations of existing data, do you have a crawler or some other means of getting hold of it?
- # [03:34] <@tantek> we haven't gotten quite to that point yet - though there is a growing amount of indieweb data based on mf2
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- # [04:06] <Calli> More random thoughts about implied properties: Why doesn't implied name generate text content like an explicit p- property (which does converts imgs to their alt/src attributes insertion)? Is that difference intentional?
- # [04:06] <Loqi> [@fjdekermadec] Nobody cares, but I finally implemented #microformats on the sites of all our clients. 2010 @Google called and they want their index back! (http://twtr.io/16d5Thkm3JQ)
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- # [04:35] <kevinmarks> the large body is probably in brid.gy/webmention.*
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- # [22:49] * Quits: kevinmarks_ (~kevinmark@2620:101:80fb:232:d930:81ff:db16:2992) (Remote host closed the connection)
- # [22:53] * Quits: eschnou (~eschnou@192.55-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
- # [22:54] * Joins: kevinmarks (~kevinmark@2620:101:80fb:232:d930:81ff:db16:2992)
- # Session Close: Wed Dec 02 00:00:00 2015
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