/irc-logs / w3c / #testing / 2012-10-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 31 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #testing
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  59. # [10:56] <sms> Back again
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  66. # [11:00] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-testing-irc
  67. # [11:00] <ArtB> Scribe: NotMe
  68. # [11:00] <ArtB> ScribeNick: uh
  69. # [11:00] <ArtB> Date: Halloween
  70. # [11:01] <ArtB> Meeting: #testing gathering @ TPAC 2012
  71. # [11:01] <ArtB> Chair: PLH
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  76. # [11:02] <fantasai> plh: I'm in the digital publishing room, if you think you need me, feel free to pull me
  77. # [11:02] <ArtB> Present+ Art_Barstow
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  81. # [11:02] * fantasai will in any case be on IRC
  82. # [11:03] <ArtB> https://github.com/w3c/testing-how-to
  83. # [11:03] * Joins: Wonsuk (~wonsuk73@public.cloak)
  84. # [11:04] <ArtB> plh: there are two other testing related sessions today
  85. # [11:04] <ArtB> … http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2012#Session_Grid
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  87. # [11:05] <krisk> I can scribe...
  88. # [11:05] <ArtB> scribenick: krisk
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  93. # [11:05] <ArtB> Scribe: Kris
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  96. # [11:05] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  97. # [11:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-testing-minutes.html ArtB
  98. # [11:05] <AnssiK> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
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  101. # [11:06] <plh> http://w3c.github.com/testing-how-to/
  102. # [11:06] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
  103. # [11:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ArtB
  104. # [11:06] <jgraham>
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  106. # [11:06] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  107. # [11:06] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-testing-minutes.html ArtB
  108. # [11:06] <sms> present + Simon Stewart
  109. # [11:06] <krisk> present+ kris_krueger
  110. # [11:06] <rhauck> present +rhauck
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  112. # [11:06] <giuseppe> present+ giuseppe
  113. # [11:06] <Wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
  114. # [11:06] <jet> present + Jet Villegas
  115. # [11:06] <plinss> Present+ Peter Linss
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  117. # [11:06] <jgraham> present+ jgraham
  118. # [11:06] <lmclister> present + Larry McLister
  119. # [11:06] <SimonPieters> Present+ Simon_Pieters
  120. # [11:06] <JohnJansen> present+ JohnJansen
  121. # [11:06] <adambe> present+ adambe
  122. # [11:06] <wilhelm> present+ Wilhelm Joys Andersen
  123. # [11:07] <bryan> present+ Bryan_Sullivan
  124. # [11:07] <Mark_Vickers> =present+ Mark_Vickers
  125. # [11:07] <arronei> present +Arron Eicholz
  126. # [11:07] <krisk> plh talking about overview - starting with 'what do you test in a specification?'
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  131. # [11:08] * jet changes topic to 'TPAC testing sessions'
  132. # [11:08] <darobin> Present+ Robin Berjon
  133. # [11:08] <ht> present+ Henry S. Thompson
  134. # [11:08] <JohnJansen> present+ JohnJansen
  135. # [11:08] <krisk> jgraham - the #github testing talk will talk about improvements in our test infrastructure, requirements for tests, etc..
  136. # [11:08] <Marcos> Present+ Marcos Caceres
  137. # [11:08] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  138. # [11:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-testing-minutes.html ArtB
  139. # [11:08] * Joins: MichaelC_ (cooper@public.cloak)
  140. # [11:08] <krisk> plh - "what do you test in a specification?"
  141. # [11:09] <MichaelC_> present+ Michael_Cooper
  142. # [11:09] * Joins: robin (~robin@public.irc.w3.org)
  143. # [11:09] <krisk> plh - it's always not obvious what needs to be testing, for example webidl exists that needs to be tested
  144. # [11:09] * Joins: acolwell (~acolwell@public.cloak)
  145. # [11:09] <krisk> plh - if it's going to have an impact on implementations needs to be tested
  146. # [11:10] <krisk> plh - MUST, MUST NOT, SHOULD , SHOULD NOT, MAY are all items that should be tested
  147. # [11:10] * Joins: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak)
  148. # [11:10] <Marcos> Lachy: just pinged him
  149. # [11:11] <Marcos> Lachy: what room are you in?
  150. # [11:11] <krisk> plh - mutliple tests can be created for a single statement from the spec
  151. # [11:11] * caribou wrong channel Marcos
  152. # [11:11] <Lachy> Marcos: RHONE 2
  153. # [11:11] * Marcos d'oh
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  155. # [11:11] <krisk> plh - it's complex and not automated....
  156. # [11:11] <krisk> Part #2 for the talk "How to write a test?"
  157. # [11:12] <krisk> First mechanism is javascript test
  158. # [11:12] <krisk> second test mechaism is what is known as a REF test
  159. # [11:12] <krisk> ...used for rendering tests
  160. # [11:12] <krisk> third mechanism is 'seff-describing' tests
  161. # [11:13] <krisk> ..you don't want to do this by default, since it's expensive
  162. # [11:13] <krisk> ...though at times this is the only mechanism
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  165. # [11:14] <krisk> For script based tests we use testharness.js
  166. # [11:14] <ArtB> … http://w3c-test.org/resources/
  167. # [11:14] <JohnJansen> s/seff-describing/self-describing
  168. # [11:14] <krisk> Check out the api examples...
  169. # [11:14] <krisk> http://w3c-test.org/resources/apisample.htm
  170. # [11:15] <ArtB> http://darobin.github.com/test-harness-tutorial/docs/using-testharness.html (testharness.js tutorial by Robin Berjon)
  171. # [11:15] <krisk> http://w3c-test.org/resources/apisample2.htm
  172. # [11:15] <krisk> http://w3c-test.org/resources/apisample3.htm
  173. # [11:16] <tobie> present+ Tobie_Langel
  174. # [11:16] <krisk> Two main use cases - asynchronous (e.g. events aka onload) and synchronous
  175. # [11:16] <krisk> ..a number of assert_* exist to validate the results
  176. # [11:17] <krisk> plh showing the test examples for each...
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  179. # [11:18] <krisk> some cool asserts...
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  181. # [11:19] <krisk> assert_unreachable - makes sure an event DOESN'T fire
  182. # [11:19] <sms> wonder what approx_equals does
  183. # [11:19] <krisk> assert_readonly, assert_idl_attribute!
  184. # [11:20] <krisk> assert_array is also very helpful as wel...
  185. # [11:20] <krisk> s/wel/well/
  186. # [11:20] <sms> krisk: how do you assert the negative?
  187. # [11:20] <krisk> assert_false
  188. # [11:20] <sms> Just assume it doesn't fire within a certain amount of time?
  189. # [11:20] <sms> Sorry: "assert_unreachable"
  190. # [11:22] <krisk> you can timeout at the 'page' level and at the test level (you can have more than one test per page)
  191. # [11:22] * sms is now known as simonstewart
  192. # [11:22] <krisk> ..adding metadata to the test is very good when you want to get an understanding on what parts of the spec have coverage
  193. # [11:23] <krisk> see slide 18 from the deck on https://github.com/w3c/testing-how-to
  194. # [11:23] <krisk> ..now on slide 19...
  195. # [11:23] <krisk> ..what are the pitfalls?
  196. # [11:24] <krisk> It important that we get the same number of test pass/fails
  197. # [11:24] <krisk> DO NOT stop running tests because something is not supported
  198. # [11:24] <SimonPieters> documentation in the source: http://w3c-test.org/resources/testharness.js
  199. # [11:25] * ArtB notes again Robin's tutorial is: http://darobin.github.com/test-harness-tutorial/docs/using-testharness.html
  200. # [11:25] <krisk> PLH see slide #20 if you can follow along just see the link above
  201. # [11:25] <krisk> http://darobin.github.com/test-harness-tutorial/docs/using-testharness.html
  202. # [11:25] <krisk> Now on Reftest
  203. # [11:26] <krisk> what is a reftest?
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  205. # [11:26] <krisk> It's two pages that should result in the same rendering
  206. # [11:26] <jet> are there docs on how each browser runs reftests?
  207. # [11:27] <simonstewart> http://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/
  208. # [11:27] <simonstewart> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html
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  210. # [11:28] <jgraham> jet: I dont think we have docs, but our system is a little different to yours
  211. # [11:28] <jgraham> We can talk about it
  212. # [11:28] <jet> jgraham: thx
  213. # [11:29] <krisk> The test web server has php support, so you can add a delay or headers, etc..
  214. # [11:31] * darobin NodeJS all the things!
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  216. # [11:31] <krisk> We have media and media files as well that can be used...
  217. # [11:32] <krisk> we have codec agnostic support files as well
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  219. # [11:36] <krisk> W3C Test Suite Licenses
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  222. # [11:36] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  223. # [11:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-testing-minutes.html ArtB
  224. # [11:37] <krisk> See slide #33
  225. # [11:37] <krisk> Now on to Mark Vickers
  226. # [11:37] <Mark_Vickers> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-and-tv/2012Oct/0017.html
  227. # [11:37] <krisk> Who will talk abou the Web and TV Testing Task Force
  228. # [11:38] <krisk> The recharter is going to be updated so that this WG has a Testing Task Force
  229. # [11:39] <krisk> Testing Use Cases
  230. # [11:39] <krisk> #1 Currently Verification of the specification
  231. # [11:40] <krisk> #2 New Improve the consistency of the open web platform (OWP)
  232. # [11:40] <krisk> #3 New support external testing/certification organizations
  233. # [11:41] * Quits: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  234. # [11:41] <krisk> Number of group do this today - for example DLNA
  235. # [11:42] <krisk> When it comes from HTML5 we want to have these tests come from the w3c and not 'fork' the tests
  236. # [11:42] * wilhelm : No forking by third-parties? I approve of this message.
  237. # [11:42] <krisk> #4 Support testing devices
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  240. # [11:43] * darobin this looks like Test262
  241. # [11:43] * darobin oh there you go
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  247. # [11:52] <krisk> summary of this session!
  248. # [11:53] <krisk> tobin can you give summary?
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  251. # [11:53] <krisk> One person states - no testing is enough
  252. # [11:53] <rhauck> uh, no "amount" of testing is enough?
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  259. # [11:55] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  260. # [11:55] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-testing-minutes.html ArtB
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  277. # [12:00] <ArtB> RRSAgent, bye
  278. # [12:00] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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  347. # [13:58] <ArtB> Marcos' doc: http://www.w3.org/TR/test-methodology/
  348. # [13:59] <ArtB> ACTION: barstow document `what is the state of WebApps` test suites?`
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  353. # [14:08] <davidburns> simonstewart: hey, done the next presentation yet?
  354. # [14:08] <simonstewart> Nope
  355. # [14:08] <simonstewart> Most people here have seen the demos
  356. # [14:08] <simonstewart> And we're talking about conferences
  357. # [14:09] <davidburns> ok cool
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  360. # [14:15] <simonstewart> Signing off
  361. # [14:15] <simonstewart> Toodle pip
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  375. # [14:26] <krisk> echo
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  386. # [14:32] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-testing-irc
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  392. # [14:32] <ArtB> Title: #github session @ TPAC 2012
  393. # [14:32] <ArtB> Date: Halloween
  394. # [14:32] <ArtB> Chair: James Graham
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  397. # [14:32] <divya> [missed a bit]
  398. # [14:32] <ArtB> ScribeNick: divya
  399. # [14:32] <ArtB> Scribe: Divya
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  401. # [14:32] <divya> Starting with Source control which was the original motivation for this session
  402. # [14:33] <Mark_Vickers> present+ Mark_Vickers
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  405. # [14:33] <divya> jgraham: atm we are running custom w3c instance of mercurial
  406. # [14:33] <ArtB> present+ Art_Barstow
  407. # [14:33] <divya> …we ahve all these repos, in order to contribute tests to that you need to learn how to use mercurial, find the repo, add your tests, commit & send a mail to mailing list
  408. # [14:34] <divya> RRSAgent: make logs public
  409. # [14:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, divya
  410. # [14:34] <divya> …one suggestion has come up is if we are better off outsourcing part of problem, in particular github
  411. # [14:34] <ArtB> (http mirror for webapps' test repo: http://w3c-test.org/webapps/)
  412. # [14:34] <divya> …its git whichi is very similar to mercuirial hosted service nicer UI, and has lot of developer buy-in
  413. # [14:34] <divya> …all big libraries are hosted on Github
  414. # [14:35] <divya> …has a different workflow which is slightly better
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  417. # [14:35] <divya> [shows example of testharness.js] http://github.com/w3c/testharness.js
  418. # [14:35] <divya> …they have this mechanism called pull request instead of sending mail off to a mailing list
  419. # [14:35] <divya> …it gives you a way of tracking various people who want to make changes
  420. # [14:36] <divya> …you do not have to go out to mail, mailing list and different systems
  421. # [14:36] <divya> …do sy yhid poiny it would be interesting to have a discussion about whether people think this is a good idea.
  422. # [14:36] <divya> s/so at this point
  423. # [14:36] <divya> kris: there has this whole patent policy stuff that needs to be addressed
  424. # [14:36] <ArtB> q+
  425. # [14:37] <divya> darobin: 1st there is contributions to spec, chair makes a call on whether the contributions has done IP properly
  426. # [14:37] <divya> darobin: separate from contributions to test suite. they are fairly standard open source license and you can get anyone contributing to test suite without IP consequences for the royalty free aspect ot the spec
  427. # [14:37] <divya> kris: do we make people sign to this to contribute to the spec.
  428. # [14:38] <divya> kris: cable companies think there would be a lot of money in it.
  429. # [14:38] <divya> darobin: W3C is not allowed to publish test suites in anything other htan open source license
  430. # [14:38] <divya> kris: today you cant add tests to w3c without signing some stuff
  431. # [14:38] <divya> darobin: that is manageable, you just need a list of people who signed off.
  432. # [14:38] <divya> darobin: i do not see it as an issue.
  433. # [14:38] <Mark_Vickers> q+
  434. # [14:38] <darobin> q?
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  437. # [14:39] <darobin> q+ ArtB
  438. # [14:39] * Zakim sees ArtB on the speaker queue
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  441. # [14:39] <darobin> q+ Mark_Vickers
  442. # [14:39] * Zakim sees ArtB, Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
  443. # [14:39] <masinter> q?
  444. # [14:39] * Zakim sees ArtB, Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
  445. # [14:39] <darobin> ack ArtB
  446. # [14:39] * Zakim sees Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
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  448. # [14:39] <divya> ArtB: i am indifferent, beggers cant be choosy might dominate here. by we i mean webapps anyhow. we will take tests
  449. # [14:39] <divya> ArtB: we should provide a way for them to contribute
  450. # [14:40] <divya> ArtB: if we are chasing another shiny object. in this case github. i am not convinced what we have right now is broken enough.
  451. # [14:40] <divya> darobin: how often do you use the mercurial system
  452. # [14:40] <divya> ArtB: probably a few times permonth
  453. # [14:40] <divya> darobin: i think that maybe why you do not see the problem
  454. # [14:41] <divya> kris: i dont believe everyone moved ot github, we still have stuff coming out of CVS. we have to learn multiple systems
  455. # [14:41] <divya> kris: that is a valid thing
  456. # [14:41] <divya> darobin: if we want outside contributions we can give up on using mercurial.
  457. # [14:41] <divya> kris: i do not think it is really very inviting to contribute.
  458. # [14:41] <divya> kris: even geeks have a hard time to contribute to github(?)
  459. # [14:42] <divya> jgraham: i think robin said on wiki page, it is about github not git
  460. # [14:42] <divya> jgraham: the point is because there is an existing community around github and much broader than w3c, the existing pool of users who know what the workflow is, then they make pull requests.
  461. # [14:43] <divya> darobin: in developer world, if it does not exist on github, it does not exist.
  462. # [14:43] * Quits: Marcos (~Adium@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  463. # [14:43] <divya> Marcos: i have seen this in responsive images. amazing to get that workflow, getting the intial flow is hard, once you ahve the community happening, it is hard.
  464. # [14:44] <divya> marcos: what our community here does is important. are they comfortable going through this. it is not as tedious as doing the manual merge on the command line. github does this automatically, and transparent. commenting appears real time.
  465. # [14:44] <divya> darobin: the way we use mercurial in w3c setup is not correct. we have central repo for something that is supposed to be distributed, we are using it as cvs and it is easy to destroy content this way.
  466. # [14:45] <divya> [random discussion]
  467. # [14:45] <ArtB> q?
  468. # [14:45] * Zakim sees Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
  469. # [14:45] <darobin> q?
  470. # [14:45] * Zakim sees Mark_Vickers on the speaker queue
  471. # [14:45] <darobin> ack Mark_Vickers
  472. # [14:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  473. # [14:45] <divya> Mark_Vickers: on the legal thing, my understanding is that github repo is you can put a CLA that covers a particular project.
  474. # [14:45] * Joins: AnssiK (~anssik@public.cloak)
  475. # [14:45] <plinss> q+
  476. # [14:45] * Zakim sees plinss on the speaker queue
  477. # [14:45] <divya> darobin: there is an approval stamp the 1st time you contribute.
  478. # [14:46] <divya> Mark_Vickers: it has value to have a large number of tests in terms of saving money for peoople who create content.
  479. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> btw the way dvcs.w3.org is set up right now it's possible for a push to create multiple heads
  480. # [14:46] <divya> Mark_Vickers: not interms of saving money.
  481. # [14:46] <MikeSmith> q?
  482. # [14:46] * Zakim sees plinss on the speaker queue
  483. # [14:46] <divya> kris: i dont think we can say it is all free and open.
  484. # [14:47] <darobin> ack plinss
  485. # [14:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  486. # [14:47] <divya> jgraham: you can see who the contribution is coming from, so you can say if they should fill the form or not. it is no different than when people send us a patch via email, and that you commit the patch without checking if they signe the right agreement
  487. # [14:48] <divya> plinss: i am in favour of crowdsourcing the tests, i certainly get the fact that github does that with devs, for some definition of devs. The devs that github targets are they contributing to test suites.
  488. # [14:48] <divya> plinss: the lot of folks who show up at test the web forward are designers not coders.
  489. # [14:48] <divya> darobin: my experience of test the web forward is paris. They tried to use dropbox, it didnt work and then they switched to github.
  490. # [14:49] <divya> stearns: at SF #1 question was why we are not using github.
  491. # [14:49] <divya> lmclister: or what is the mercurial equivalent for the git command
  492. # [14:49] <masinter> q+ to ask whether this is necessarily a choice, or whether there's some workflow where things can be staged
  493. # [14:49] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
  494. # [14:49] <divya> plinss: i am concerned like ArtB that we are chasing the next shiny thing.
  495. # [14:49] <divya> plinss: i would rather see w3c be the cool place for this stuff.
  496. # [14:50] <divya> marcos: cost of setting up infrastructure is huge.
  497. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> I wish somebody from the w3c systems team were here to comment
  498. # [14:50] <divya> Marcos1: how many years do we keep doing the same thing.
  499. # [14:50] <divya> plinss: i have snever seen a migration step not lose something
  500. # [14:50] <divya> plinss: i have never seen a pre-baked thing that delivers to all of our needs.
  501. # [14:50] <krisk> q+
  502. # [14:50] * Zakim sees masinter, krisk on the speaker queue
  503. # [14:50] <divya> darobin: we may have fewer points of pain
  504. # [14:50] <divya> plinss: something else might be the point of pain
  505. # [14:50] <darobin> q?
  506. # [14:50] * Zakim sees masinter, krisk on the speaker queue
  507. # [14:51] <divya> jgraham: i am not claiming github is perfect at least it has an api that we can build on
  508. # [14:51] <odinho_> q+
  509. # [14:51] * Zakim sees masinter, krisk, odinho_ on the speaker queue
  510. # [14:51] <divya> …if it does turn out it is not optimal we can just replace that bit of it.
  511. # [14:51] <divya> plinss: what if github goes down
  512. # [14:51] <ArtB> q+ how would this work http://w3c-test.org/framework/app/suite in the github world?
  513. # [14:51] * Zakim ArtB, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
  514. # [14:51] <divya> jgraham: certainly we should have w3c hosted read only clones of repo
  515. # [14:51] * jet_ changes topic to 'github for w3c tests'
  516. # [14:51] <divya> plinss: github has the apis to developp tools, if we spend times building tools on top of infrastructure
  517. # [14:52] <divya> jgraham: someone at opera wrote a code review tool that was open sourced on monday. I think it is orders of magnitude better than github one, and it might be worth looking at that.
  518. # [14:52] <darobin> q?
  519. # [14:52] * Zakim sees masinter, krisk, odinho_ on the speaker queue
  520. # [14:52] <odinho_> https://github.com/jensl/critic/ -> Critic code review tool (from Opera)
  521. # [14:52] <divya> …might be worth making it transparent such that we can use that tool rather than whats on github
  522. # [14:53] <divya> [missed convo]
  523. # [14:53] <masinter> q-
  524. # [14:53] * Zakim sees krisk, odinho_ on the speaker queue
  525. # [14:53] * Quits: MichaelC_ (cooper@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  526. # [14:53] <odinho_> s|https://github.com/jensl/critic/ -> Critic code review tool (from Opera)|-> https://github.com/jensl/critic/ Critic code review tool (from Opera)|
  527. # [14:53] <divya> jgraham: there may be different design goals
  528. # [14:53] * darobin ArtB: I think you wanted to queue yourself? if so it didn't work
  529. # [14:53] <divya> plinss: shepherd was designed to be a test review system
  530. # [14:53] <divya> jgraham: if it gets us an awesome user experience then, but it is not there yet.
  531. # [14:53] <ArtB> q+ to ask: how would this work http://w3c-test.org/framework/app/suitein the github world?
  532. # [14:53] * Zakim sees krisk, odinho_, ArtB on the speaker queue
  533. # [14:53] <divya> plinss: anything we build is going to take time
  534. # [14:53] <divya> plinss: rather than rely on someone else's infrastructure
  535. # [14:54] <divya> plinss: i have no predictability on github infrastructure
  536. # [14:54] <divya> darobin: as long as the people who wrote the code are alive & around to maintain it
  537. # [14:54] <isra> q+
  538. # [14:54] * Zakim sees krisk, odinho_, ArtB, isra on the speaker queue
  539. # [14:54] <divya> kris: stuff on w3c lasts longer than it lasts on github
  540. # [14:54] <divya> darobin: 10 years ago sourceforce was the only option and people hated it.
  541. # [14:54] <divya> darobin: anything out there would be synchronized tow3c
  542. # [14:55] <divya> darobin: 1. one side is git 2. other side of tooling is github api, which maps very closely to git.
  543. # [14:55] <divya> darobin: i am not too worried about that, there exists at least 1 open source implementation that exposes same api on top of git repository
  544. # [14:55] <odinho_> q-
  545. # [14:55] * Zakim sees krisk, ArtB, isra on the speaker queue
  546. # [14:55] <divya> krisk: how long have we had stuff on this site so far?
  547. # [14:55] <divya> jgraham: which site?
  548. # [14:55] <divya> krisk: github
  549. # [14:56] <odinho_> Present+ Odin_Hoerthe_Omdal
  550. # [14:56] <divya> jgraham: well the htmlwg is readwrite. that is what they are using as primary interface
  551. # [14:56] <divya> jgraham: test stuff is mostly readonly. the html test suite is readonly.
  552. # [14:56] <divya> jgraham: testharness.js is readonly here.
  553. # [14:56] * Joins: jdurand (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  554. # [14:56] <divya> …webperforamnce is read only event source is read-write doesnt exist anywhere else.
  555. # [14:56] <divya> …amaya is readwrite nowadays
  556. # [14:57] <divya> …this is the official w3c github repo there is a lot more w3c related github things that are not part of the official one
  557. # [14:57] <divya> darobin: there is actually a lot more content than this.
  558. # [14:57] <divya> krisk: isnt that a problem? wont people have hard time giguring out
  559. # [14:57] <divya> darobin: ideally i want all the official stuff to go to the official thing.
  560. # [14:57] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  561. # [14:57] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-testing-minutes.html ArtB
  562. # [14:57] <divya> darobin: i would encourage groups be consistent and make their info more easy to find.
  563. # [14:58] <bryan> q+
  564. # [14:58] * Zakim sees krisk, ArtB, isra, bryan on the speaker queue
  565. # [14:58] <divya> jgraham: it is a problem we would solve if we say this is the prefered user interface
  566. # [14:58] * Joins: MichaelC_ (cooper@public.cloak)
  567. # [14:58] <divya> darobin: what has happened today is people join WG they are told mercurial is the way to do, lose data once, and hten they get rustrated and they do not know w3c has a github account.
  568. # [14:58] <darobin> q?
  569. # [14:58] * Zakim sees krisk, ArtB, isra, bryan on the speaker queue
  570. # [14:58] * ArtB uh, oh - this RRSAgent log includes the 11:00 #testing discussion ;-)
  571. # [14:58] <darobin> ack krisk
  572. # [14:58] * Zakim sees ArtB, isra, bryan on the speaker queue
  573. # [14:59] <divya> Marcos1: i am one of the people who has test suites in public account not on w3cc account. It looked like i didnt know who to contact.
  574. # [14:59] <divya> jgraham: the process at the moement is to ask MikeSmith
  575. # [14:59] <divya> darobin: or me
  576. # [14:59] <divya> darobin: if you look at the members anyone there who is w3c should normally have the ability to add you to the organization
  577. # [15:00] <darobin> ack ArtB
  578. # [15:00] <Zakim> ArtB, you wanted to ask: how would this work http://w3c-test.org/framework/app/suitein the github world?
  579. # [15:00] * Zakim sees isra, bryan on the speaker queue
  580. # [15:00] <ArtB> http://w3c-test.org/framework/app/suite
  581. # [15:00] <divya> ArtB: i am oppossed to [] work.
  582. # [15:00] <divya> ArtB: we have some tests in webapps. in the scenario where webapps would have some tests in mercurial etc
  583. # [15:00] <divya> ArtB: would framework accomodate both?
  584. # [15:00] <divya> darobin: not a problem
  585. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> s/[] work/makework/
  586. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  587. # [15:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
  588. # [15:01] <divya> ArtB: do you have WG that are like ground zero, that have already gone to github
  589. # [15:01] <divya> darobin: the htmlwg did that for spec editing
  590. # [15:01] <divya> Marcos1: DAP did it
  591. # [15:01] <divya> krisk: is it not on CVS for html spec?
  592. # [15:02] <wilhelm> q+
  593. # [15:02] * Zakim sees isra, bryan, wilhelm on the speaker queue
  594. # [15:02] <divya> darobin: there is a tool that takes the github source, compiles into html thing and then checks into cvs
  595. # [15:02] <divya> …sam wrote the tool in under 15 mins
  596. # [15:02] <divya> krisk: if someone starts from ground zero, we have other infrastructure how does w3test.org work
  597. # [15:02] * Quits: davidburns (~davidburns@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  598. # [15:02] <divya> darobin: i maintain respec on github, whenever i ship a build, it automatically gets synched to w3c server
  599. # [15:03] <divya> jgraham: w3test.org does perl update at the moment changing to git pull owuld be trivial
  600. # [15:03] <divya> SimonPieters: whatwg specs are developed on github.
  601. # [15:03] <darobin> q?
  602. # [15:03] * Zakim sees isra, bryan, wilhelm on the speaker queue
  603. # [15:03] <darobin> ack isra
  604. # [15:03] * Zakim sees bryan, wilhelm on the speaker queue
  605. # [15:04] <divya> isra: should w3c ever decide to use github, i think we should protect our members find some sort of legal protection in case they change user agreements, what happens when they change agreements.
  606. # [15:04] <divya> isra: it is a fertile ground for some issues to come up.
  607. # [15:04] <divya> krisk: i would +1 that, for microsoft, it is not a normal thing.
  608. # [15:04] <divya> darobin: plenty of ms people put stuff on github
  609. # [15:04] <divya> krisk: there are some things in place that is different tho
  610. # [15:05] <divya> isra: w3c has enough power to impose some conditions.
  611. # [15:05] <divya> darobin: disappearing data is not a problem
  612. # [15:05] <divya> darobin: you are thinking the case what happens when they become evil.
  613. # [15:05] <divya> masinter: if you can sync why is there an issue
  614. # [15:06] <divya> plinss: it is not about the repo itself. the issue is tooling around the repo, we will be married to what we are building on top of
  615. # [15:06] <divya> masinter: github has an api.
  616. # [15:06] <divya> plinss: dont confuse git and github and mercurial
  617. # [15:06] <divya> isra: its about legal terms of use
  618. # [15:06] <divya> isra: not about synching data
  619. # [15:06] <divya> [side conversations]
  620. # [15:07] <divya> masinter: most tools seem to be for running tests than submitting them
  621. # [15:07] <divya> plinss: in csswg we have both
  622. # [15:07] <SimonPieters> q?
  623. # [15:07] * Zakim sees bryan, wilhelm on the speaker queue
  624. # [15:07] <divya> plinss: we have sheperd code it runs, finding errors giving data right back into client.
  625. # [15:08] <divya> plinss: comments reviews happen on shpeherd. if push comes to shove i can move those to github.
  626. # [15:08] <darobin> q?
  627. # [15:08] * Zakim sees bryan, wilhelm on the speaker queue
  628. # [15:08] <divya> …so i dont defend the code per se, there is a lot of sense that the methodology runs on same server
  629. # [15:08] * Quits: dawagner (~danielwh@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  630. # [15:08] <divya> …validates test files, etc that will soon move to CI system
  631. # [15:08] <divya> …there is lot that is either built or not too far away from being built
  632. # [15:08] <divya> masinter: based on mercurial?
  633. # [15:09] <divya> plinss: yes
  634. # [15:09] * Joins: davidburns (~davidburns@public.cloak)
  635. # [15:09] <divya> plinss: at that time w3c was doing to svg, and then it appeared like w3c was going to standardize on mercurial
  636. # [15:09] <divya> darobin: it is not w3c the orgn it is just feedback the people
  637. # [15:10] <darobin> q?
  638. # [15:10] * Zakim sees bryan, wilhelm on the speaker queue
  639. # [15:10] <darobin> ack bryan
  640. # [15:10] * Zakim sees wilhelm on the speaker queue
  641. # [15:10] <divya> bryan: i am using github to ocllaboratively edit specs
  642. # [15:10] <odinho_> s/doing to svg/using svn/
  643. # [15:10] <divya> bryan: should that be under w3c account
  644. # [15:10] <odinho_> s/ocllaboratively/collaboratively/
  645. # [15:10] <divya> bryan: should we try to harmonize the least, sign some sort of community power agreement with github.
  646. # [15:10] <divya> bryan: it is definitely easy
  647. # [15:10] <divya> bryan: compared to cvs which was horrible
  648. # [15:11] <plinss> BTW, Shepherd: http://test.csswg.org/shepherd/
  649. # [15:11] <divya> …mercurial is okay, i dont know about people stepping on top of each other. certainly github is easy.
  650. # [15:11] * darobin some company is selling cvshub.com for $2k+...
  651. # [15:11] <divya> …if we didnt get tests here from outside community. we still need some kind of system that encourages participation. as long as we have some sort of scripted commands that allow tests to come in.
  652. # [15:12] <divya> wilhelm: i am mildly in favor of this change. all the front end devs i know use this service and github has 2 million members. how many people in this room have a github account
  653. # [15:12] <divya> [majority]
  654. # [15:12] * MichaelC_ has an account but dont have the first idea how to use it
  655. # [15:12] <SimonPieters> q?
  656. # [15:12] * Zakim sees wilhelm on the speaker queue
  657. # [15:12] <divya> wilhelm: that is an interesting datapoint
  658. # [15:12] <SimonPieters> ack wilhelm
  659. # [15:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  660. # [15:13] <divya> plinss: it doesnt matter what the people in this room are using. if we are trying to engage a broader audience, what are they using? is this tool a barrier to entry to people
  661. # [15:13] * darobin fantasai you joined GH in order to open issues 51 and 52 on "pocmo"
  662. # [15:13] * odinho_ how many people at Test The Web Forward had w3c-account? :P
  663. # [15:13] <divya> stearns: if crowdsourcing the test is the point, then we are going to be chasing the shiny 2 years from now
  664. # [15:14] <divya> jgraham: it is hard to become the shiny thing because we do only 1 thing. github you can do all the other htings.
  665. # [15:14] <divya> jgraham: it has a lot of uses so it spreads through the community quickly
  666. # [15:14] <odinho_> q+
  667. # [15:14] * Zakim sees odinho_ on the speaker queue
  668. # [15:14] <divya> jgraham: so one other problem we have had sort of had solutions, is we have not had good code review of tests or testing tools
  669. # [15:14] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("Computer has gone to sleep.")
  670. # [15:15] <divya> …csswg's sheperd does not really work for code review
  671. # [15:15] <divya> …demo the tool we use @ Opera which was open sourced on monday on github, maybe it is interesting to other people
  672. # [15:15] <divya> [demos]
  673. # [15:15] <darobin> q+ to ask if critic has an API
  674. # [15:15] * Zakim sees odinho_, darobin on the speaker queue
  675. # [15:16] <divya> jgraham: each review is a branch in the repository
  676. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> q?
  677. # [15:16] * Zakim sees odinho_, darobin on the speaker queue
  678. # [15:16] <divya> [shows eg of a review for testharness.js]
  679. # [15:16] <divya> jgraham: shows if anyone has reviewed it or what % of files have been reviewed.
  680. # [15:17] <divya> …diff view old code on left new code on right
  681. # [15:17] <divya> …can create an issue on each line
  682. # [15:17] <darobin> Opera Critic is https://github.com/jensl/critic
  683. # [15:17] <divya> …i can then see the issues that have been raised
  684. # [15:18] * Quits: a1zu (~androirc@public.cloak) ("AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )")
  685. # [15:18] * Quits: ph (hoschka@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  686. # [15:18] <divya> …the author would fix the issue and push another commit to the branch that fixes the issue. The Critic tool would notice that the change in the line was for the issue, and then notify people on the update.
  687. # [15:18] * Joins: ph (hoschka@public.cloak)
  688. # [15:18] <divya> (paraphrasing htere)
  689. # [15:18] <divya> …when you have changes you keep pushing htem, when review is done you merge the branch
  690. # [15:19] <divya> …without trying it, it is hard to explain how efficient that is. we tried other tools at opera. We tried reviewboard for e.g. it was a disaster and that is why we ended up with this tool
  691. # [15:19] <divya> …for test cases we may have slightly different process that may not be supported by this tool. e.g commit to main repo rather than commit to a branch
  692. # [15:20] <divya> …for testharness or other tools it might work really well. I am going to try it on github and use it instead of github review tool.
  693. # [15:20] <divya> …github does not allow you to comment across multiple lines, squash multiple commits and review together.
  694. # [15:20] <divya> SimonPieters: we use this for opera source and test suites that we want to release at opera.
  695. # [15:21] <divya> jgraham: until the issue is addressed it will not markt he code as ready to be merged.
  696. # [15:21] <divya> jgraham: probably enough sales pitch if people want to look at it. it is on github like everything else.
  697. # [15:21] <divya> darobin: does it have an api, so if you want to list issues somewhere else…
  698. # [15:21] <divya> jgraham: it has ability to write extensions, so you could write an API
  699. # [15:22] <divya> darobin: it would be logical
  700. # [15:22] <divya> jgraham: i think someone wrote an extension that creates a JSON dump of the issues
  701. # [15:22] <divya> …that is all i wanted to say. Does anyone else have anything to say?
  702. # [15:22] <SimonPieters> q?
  703. # [15:22] * Zakim sees odinho_, darobin on the speaker queue
  704. # [15:22] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  705. # [15:22] <divya> odinho_: another thing is when review is accepted, push a button and takes it where it is supposed to go.
  706. # [15:23] <divya> darobin: merges it to master?
  707. # [15:23] <masinter> q+ to ask about testing infrastructure for HTTP, URL tests needed more well-known sites, etc.
  708. # [15:23] * Zakim sees odinho_, darobin, masinter on the speaker queue
  709. # [15:23] <darobin> ack odinho_
  710. # [15:23] * Zakim sees darobin, masinter on the speaker queue
  711. # [15:23] <divya> odinho_: merges to specific branch
  712. # [15:23] <divya> SimonPieters: …and resolves a bug in the bug system
  713. # [15:23] <darobin> ack darobin
  714. # [15:23] <Zakim> darobin, you wanted to ask if critic has an API
  715. # [15:23] * Zakim sees masinter on the speaker queue
  716. # [15:23] * Parts: isra (~inoto@public.cloak) (isra)
  717. # [15:23] <masinter> http://redbot.org/
  718. # [15:23] <divya> odinho_: it is the same git server we use for everything. when it was put on github some people started pushing patches there because it was very visible.
  719. # [15:23] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  720. # [15:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-testing-minutes.html ArtB
  721. # [15:24] <divya> jgraham: there were people who had access to the sourcecode for over a year who never made a patch, and suddenly after it was on github for a day, made the patch
  722. # [15:24] <divya> darobin: same thing for respec
  723. # [15:24] <divya> jgraham: did anyone want to write up a summary of this session?
  724. # [15:24] * darobin at what time are we supposed to stop?
  725. # [15:24] <bryan> q+
  726. # [15:24] * Zakim sees masinter, bryan on the speaker queue
  727. # [15:25] <divya> masinter: i want to ask about other parts of testing infrastructure.
  728. # [15:25] * darobin we shouldn't hog the room for people after us
  729. # [15:25] * Marcos1 is now known as Marcos
  730. # [15:25] <divya> masinter: e.g. testing uris, nice to have DNS wildcard
  731. # [15:25] <divya> masinter: i see there is more to testing the web than just testing css.
  732. # [15:25] <divya> jgraham: i agree with you and i think we need to have conv about server side testing infra. i do not think we have the right people in the room to have that conversation
  733. # [15:26] <divya> masinter: i sent an email to public-test-infra mailing list and didnt get any response.
  734. # [15:26] <divya> masinter: i think assumption seems to be that testing happens in wg
  735. # [15:26] * Parts: Marcos (~Adium@public.cloak) (Marcos)
  736. # [15:26] <divya> krisk: the websocket one was extremely painful.
  737. # [15:27] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  738. # [15:27] <divya> jgraham: for specific tests, we invoke the MikeSmith protocol again
  739. # [15:27] <divya> [krisk says something about vm]
  740. # [15:28] <SimonPieters> q?
  741. # [15:28] * Zakim sees masinter, bryan on the speaker queue
  742. # [15:28] <divya> bryan: how close are we to clone this framework thing and run behind our firewall?
  743. # [15:28] <divya> darobin: we are not there yet.
  744. # [15:28] <SimonPieters> ack masinter
  745. # [15:28] <Zakim> masinter, you wanted to ask about testing infrastructure for HTTP, URL tests needed more well-known sites, etc.
  746. # [15:28] * Zakim sees bryan on the speaker queue
  747. # [15:28] <divya> darobin: can i give an update on this in 2 months?
  748. # [15:28] <divya> bryan: a proposal in coremob take a half-step forward by hosting coremob test somewhere else.
  749. # [15:28] <divya> darobin: github might help with as it has an api that makes it easy to pull data out.
  750. # [15:29] <divya> darobin: we will figure that out.
  751. # [15:29] <divya> bryan: esp for network operators its very important.
  752. # [15:29] <SimonPieters> ack bryan
  753. # [15:29] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  754. # [15:29] <divya> RRSAgent: make minutes
  755. # [15:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-testing-minutes.html divya
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  763. # [15:33] <ArtB> RRSAgent, bye
  764. # [15:33] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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  798. # [16:09] <darobin> it's Lastest Call time!
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  813. # [16:47] * Joins: giuseppe (~giuseppep@public.cloak)
  814. # [16:50] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
  815. # [16:51] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  816. # [16:51] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("Computer has gone to sleep.")
  817. # [16:53] * Quits: kotakagi (~Koichi_Takagi_KDDI@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  818. # [16:53] * Quits: SimonPieters (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  819. # [16:55] * Quits: masinter (~user@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  820. # [16:57] * Parts: giuseppe (~giuseppep@public.cloak) (giuseppe)
  821. # [16:57] * Quits: massimo (~chatzilla@public.cloak) ("ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 16.0.2/20121025210744]")
  822. # [16:58] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  823. # [16:59] * Quits: AnssiK (~anssik@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  824. # [17:00] * Quits: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  825. # [17:00] * plinss is now known as plinss_away
  826. # [17:01] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  827. # [17:02] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  828. # [17:02] * Joins: Abel (~abel.online@public.cloak)
  829. # [17:03] * Parts: Abel (~abel.online@public.cloak) (Abel)
  830. # [17:03] * Joins: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak)
  831. # [17:05] * Joins: abarsto (~abarsto@public.cloak)
  832. # [17:05] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
  833. # [17:07] * plinss_away is now known as plinss
  834. # [17:07] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@public.cloak) (MikeSmith)
  835. # [17:08] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
  836. # [17:08] * Parts: JonathanJ1 (~hollobit@public.cloak) (JonathanJ1)
  837. # [17:12] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  838. # [17:12] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
  839. # [17:14] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@public.cloak)
  840. # [17:29] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak)
  841. # [17:30] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  842. # [17:34] * Joins: ph (hoschka@public.cloak)
  843. # [17:35] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
  844. # [17:36] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("Computer has gone to sleep.")
  845. # [17:36] * Quits: stearns (~anonymous@public.cloak) (stearns)
  846. # [17:37] * Quits: ArtB (~abarsto@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  847. # [17:38] * Quits: ph (hoschka@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  848. # [17:39] * plinss is now known as plinss_away
  849. # [17:39] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("always accept cookies")
  850. # [17:45] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@public.cloak) (MikeSmith)
  851. # [17:47] * Joins: AnssiK (~anssik@public.cloak)
  852. # [17:51] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  853. # [17:51] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.irc.w3.org) (Zakim)
  854. # [17:56] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  855. # [17:59] * plinss_away is now known as plinss
  856. # [18:10] * plinss is now known as plinss_away
  857. # [18:12] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("always accept cookies")
  858. # [18:17] * Quits: tpacbot (~nodebot@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
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  860. # [18:21] * Joins: jet (~jet@public.cloak)
  861. # [18:28] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak)
  862. # [18:43] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
  863. # [20:06] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@public.cloak)
  864. # [20:09] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@public.cloak) (MikeSmith)
  865. # [20:17] * Joins: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@public.cloak)
  866. # [20:42] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@public.cloak) (MikeSmith)
  867. # [22:31] * Quits: AnssiK (~anssik@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 60 seconds)
  868. # [23:10] * Quits: jet (~jet@public.cloak) (jet)
  869. # [23:40] * Joins: SimonPieters (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  870. # Session Close: Thu Nov 01 00:00:01 2012

The end :)