/irc-logs / w3c / #testing / 2013-06-14 / end

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# Session Start: Fri Jun 14 00:00:00 2013
# Session Ident: #testing
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# [15:06] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/06/14-testing-irc
# [15:07] * Ms2ger waves at the testers
# [15:07] <wilhelm> Meeting: WebDriver F2F, June 14th 2013
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# [15:11] <wilhelm> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2013-June-F2F
# [15:11] * sstewart6 waves back
# [15:11] <wilhelm> Chair: sstewart6
# [15:11] <wilhelm> Scribe: wilhelm
# [15:11] <wilhelm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [15:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/14-testing-minutes.html wilhelm
# [15:11] <wilhelm> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [15:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, wilhelm
# [15:12] <wilhelm> Topic: Test suite
# [15:12] <wilhelm> Scribe: plh
# [15:13] * Joins: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak)
# [15:13] <plh> David: it was more working on it and writing tests
# [15:13] <AutomatedTester> Present+ DavidBurns
# [15:13] <plh> John: not sure if this is the venue or email but I'd like to understand the end-to-end plan for it
# [15:13] <plh> Present+ plh
# [15:14] <plh> David: it's in mercurial
# [15:14] <sstewart6> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver-test
# [15:14] <wilhelm> Present+ Wilhelm
# [15:14] <plh> David: we're trying to port the open source project tests
# [15:14] <plh> ... those have grown quite organically over the years
# [15:14] <plh> ... sort them, etc.
# [15:14] <plh> ... we're trying to move them across
# [15:15] <plh> ... there are parts when the tests and the spec diverge
# [15:15] <plh> ... like at TPAC
# [15:15] <plh> ... but we think the spec is correct and need to fix the tests
# [15:15] <plh> Simon: we're taking the tests andmaking sure they map to the spec
# [15:16] <plh> ... once we're complete with the move, we can remove the tests in selenium
# [15:16] <plh> plh: license for the tests?
# [15:16] <plh> Simon: all Apache 2 tests
# [15:16] <plh> ... we're clean on that front
# [15:18] <plh> John: is there a structure for submission?
# [15:18] <plh> ... like in the CSS WG
# [15:18] <plh> Simon: correct, it would be better to have a holding
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# [15:21] <plh> plh: [trying to motivate the group to move to web-platform-tests github]
# [15:22] * Ms2ger plh++
# [15:22] * Ms2ger pokes AutomatedTester to support that
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# [15:24] <AutomatedTester> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests
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# [15:28] <plh> All: looks like a compelling case
# [15:28] <plh> Simon: let's do it then
# [15:29] <plh> Resolution: webdriver tests will merge into web-platform-tests
# [15:30] <fisherii> Present+ MarcFisher
# [15:30] <sstewart6> Present+ SimonStewart
# [15:30] <kkania> Present+ KenKania
# [15:30] <JohnJansen> Present+ JohnJansen
# [15:30] <gdennis> Present + GregDennis
# [15:31] <chrisgao> Present + ChrisGao
# [15:31] <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [15:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/14-testing-minutes.html plh
# [15:31] * jgraham wonders about merging with web-platform-tests
# [15:31] <plh> Simon: we already covered language in the test suite (python)
# [15:32] <plh> Wilhelm: we should distribute chapters
# [15:32] <jgraham> (not been following, but it's not clear to me that webdriver tests are much like the other tests there, or if they have the same license)
# [15:32] <plh> Simon: will look 9, 10, 11
# [15:32] <plh> ... reading element state and executing JS
# [15:32] <jgraham> (although there are ofc adcvantages e.g. you get free documentation)
# [15:32] <plh> Wilhelm: I'll do 16 screenshots
# [15:33] <plh> David: I'll do 10 and 17
# [15:33] <plh> Simon: I'll do 9 and 11
# [15:34] <plh> David: I'll do 14 as well
# [15:34] <sstewart6> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/tip/webdriver-spec.html
# [15:34] <plh> (confusing about the spec version :)
# [15:34] <plh> s/sing/sion/
# [15:34] <plh> Ken: I'll do 5 and 6
# [15:34] <plh> John: I'll do 2 and 3
# [15:36] <plh> Chris: I'll do 15
# [15:36] <plh> ACTION: Simon to figure testing for chapters 9 and 11
# [15:36] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [15:37] <plh> ACTION: David to figure testing for chapters 10, 14 and 17
# [15:37] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [15:37] <plh> ACTION: Chris to figure testing for chapters 2 and 3
# [15:37] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [15:37] <plh> ACTION: Wilhelm to figure testing for chapters 16
# [15:37] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [15:37] <plh> ACTION: Chris to figure testing for chapters 15
# [15:37] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [15:38] <plh> ACTION: Ken to figure testing for chapters 5 and 6
# [15:38] * RRSAgent records action 6
# [15:38] <plh> ACTION: John to figure out testing for chapter 1
# [15:38] * RRSAgent records action 7
# [15:38] <plh> s/Chris to figure testing for chapters 2 and/John to figure testing for chapters 2 and/
# [15:39] <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [15:39] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/14-testing-minutes.html plh
# [15:39] <plh> ACTIOn: Simon to create the web-platform-tests directory and move tests there
# [15:39] * RRSAgent records action 8
# [15:40] <plh> Simon: we'll figure out the other chapters later
# [15:42] <plh> [figuring out the next agenda item]
# [15:43] <plh> Topic: SysApps
# [15:43] <sstewart6> http://www.w3.org/wiki/System_Applications
# [15:43] <plh> David: those are related to OS APIs. we're doing testing with marionette
# [15:44] <plh> ... we have JS libraries for access to things, like contacts, set geolocation, etc.
# [15:45] <plh> ... we do tests for batteries, bluetooth, livemaps, etc.
# [15:46] <plh> ... not sure I don't think we need to worry about it. we didn't extend marionette for them, we use the execute script method
# [15:46] <plh> [Simon goes through the list of APIs]
# [15:46] <plh> David: in Firefox OS we have a browser within a browser
# [15:46] <plh> Simon: we must go deeper :)
# [15:46] <plh> David: everything is based in an iframe
# [15:47] <plh> ... we try to prevent cross browser contamination
# [15:47] <plh> ... chrome os is doing similar things
# [15:47] <plh> ... a lot of these have come pout of Mozilla while working on firefox os
# [15:47] <sstewart6> Specs appear to be here: https://github.com/sysapps
# [15:47] <plh> ... they are certain OEM who see value in it, like Samsung
# [15:48] <plh> ... don't think there are a lot of difference
# [15:48] <plh> ... the webdriver is low enough and don't need tweaking
# [15:49] <plh> David: Marionette is the only I think I can use to test firefox os
# [15:49] <plh> ACTION: David to double check there is no need to extend WebDriver because of Firefox OS
# [15:49] * RRSAgent records action 9
# [15:49] <plh> Simon: it works because the OS is written in JS...
# [15:49] <plh> David: agree but others would be out of scope
# [15:49] <plh> Simon: ok
# [15:51] <plh> Topic: Security dialogs
# [15:51] <sstewart6> driver.authtenticateAs(Credentials)
# [15:52] <sstewart6> http://selenium.googlecode.com/git/docs/api/java/org/openqa/selenium/Alert.html#authenticateUsing(org.openqa.selenium.security.Credentials)
# [15:52] <plh> Simon: it is currently unimplemented
# [15:52] <plh> ... it's there only as a local end API at the moment
# [15:53] <plh> ... this isn't handling things like OpenID
# [15:53] <plh> ... you would just write that use normal primitive
# [15:53] <plh> ... we model all modal dialogs as an alter
# [15:53] <plh> s/alter/alert/
# [15:54] <plh> John: this is targetting the security dialog but we didn't target modal dialogs yet, right?
# [15:54] <plh> Simon: it's in the wired protocol
# [15:54] <sstewart6> https://code.google.com/p/selenium/wiki/JsonWireProtocol#/session/:sessionId/alert_text
# [15:54] <sstewart6> https://code.google.com/p/selenium/wiki/JsonWireProtocol#/session/:sessionId/accept_alert
# [15:54] <sstewart6> https://code.google.com/p/selenium/wiki/JsonWireProtocol#/session/:sessionId/dismiss_alert
# [15:54] <plh> David: this is the open source wire protocol, not the google one
# [15:55] <plh> Simon: this will be migrated into the missing appendix
# [15:55] <plh> Simon: the way we handle dialog: we assume they all have the same level functionality: dismiss, cancel, send keys, get the text of the alter itself
# [15:56] <plh> ... make sure to fill a field, ie finding out what the prompt is about
# [15:56] <plh> ... because you're doing auth, you may do user/passwrd but there is a level of indirection
# [15:56] <plh> Simon: do we want to allow webdriver to access basic digest? or is it out of scope?
# [15:56] <plh> Wilhelm: right now, I'm sending keys to the browser
# [15:57] <plh> John: automating a security dialog is a threat imho. it needs to be detailed and complete.
# [15:58] <plh> ... doing something that sounds insecure wouldn't fly in the company
# [15:58] <plh> ... we might not do it even if the spec says we have to
# [15:59] <plh> ... the limitation here that wouldn't be able to use webdriver for auth
# [15:59] <plh> Wilhem: how can I auth my staging area?
# [15:59] <plh> John: would need to auth first
# [15:59] <plh> Soimon: but we can't connect to a running server
# [16:00] <plh> Simon: on services like sourcelabs, you don't even have access...
# [16:00] <plh> s/Soimon/Simon/
# [16:00] <sstewart6> s/sourcelabs/Sauce Labs/
# [16:01] <plh> David: for marionette, it's in the nightly. we got it approved: you would need to pass a flag
# [16:01] <plh> ... for desktop, it's command line flag. this goes through a number of checks, including certain preferences
# [16:01] <plh> ... if one is missing, marionette doesn't start
# [16:02] <plh> ... ie you have to do several steps to put you in an insecure state
# [16:02] <plh> ... for mobile, it's going to be different
# [16:02] <plh> ... we'll visit that once we're ready for the general public
# [16:02] <plh> ... that's how we got through the security review
# [16:03] <plh> Simon: the command line turns the browser into something that is listening
# [16:03] <plh> David: you need to have a number of commands in order to activate it
# [16:03] <plh> ... you can't remote over a network
# [16:03] <plh> ... you would need to have an intermediairy on the remote machine
# [16:04] <plh> ... you can't speak to marionette over the network
# [16:04] <plh> ... could be overriden but require deep knowledge of preferences
# [16:05] <plh> ... of course, if you can do silly things
# [16:05] <plh> John: interesting approach even if 99.9% guarantee isn't enough
# [16:05] <plh> John: in order to be hacked you need to make 3 or 4 wrong decisions
# [16:05] <plh> David: correct
# [16:06] <plh> Ken: it's a similar approach in Chrome
# [16:06] <plh> ... for android, not sure how the options get passed
# [16:06] <plh> ... since we don't speak wire protocol in chrome, you need a separate binary
# [16:07] <plh> David: yes, we have a shime for the http protocol as well
# [16:07] <sstewart6> s/ shime / shim /
# [16:08] <plh> David: preventing add-ons from switching on marionette was vital
# [16:08] <plh> ... those aren't allowed in the store. those get automatically flagged
# [16:09] <plh> ... if you don't go through the store, all bets are off
# [16:10] <plh> ... I can find the security discussion meeting...
# [16:11] <plh> Simon: if you've got an API for automated browser, spammer can use it. there are JS variables to detect webdriver was enabled.
# [16:11] <plh> ... should we agree on a fingerprint
# [16:11] <plh> John: seems like a must to me
# [16:12] <plh> ... otherwise webdriver will be used against captcha
# [16:12] <AutomatedTester> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=870576 https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Reviews/MarionetteCLIAll
# [16:13] <plh> Simon: so, is our spec the right place to put that in and should it be the same in all browsers?
# [16:13] <plh> Simon: initially, I was doing security through obscurity...
# [16:14] <plh> John: the obscurity will get clear very quickly...
# [16:14] <plh> ... there has to be something else
# [16:14] <plh> Simon: if you set an attribute on a document, it can get overriden...
# [16:14] <plh> ... in the ideal world, you would set a header
# [16:15] <plh> ... and you would set an attribute that cannot overriden, like document.automated
# [16:15] <plh> ... but then you can take advantage of the scoping rule...
# [16:15] <plh> ... and substitute it
# [16:16] <plh> David: some large websites, like Amazon, do detect things like phantomjs already
# [16:16] <plh> Simon: I'm going to siuggest a header
# [16:16] <plh> John: we might learn from XHR/CORS
# [16:17] <plh> ... it's sort of a similar problem. the combination of header and attribute could do it
# [16:18] <plh> ... so we must have a fingerprint, with a header and an attribute, and do a security review
# [16:18] <plh> Simon: let's put a strawman in the spec and get review
# [16:19] <plh> ACTION: Simon to put a proposal in the spec around the security mechanism header and attribute
# [16:19] * RRSAgent records action 10
# [16:19] <plh> ACTION: All get their security teams to review Simon's proposal
# [16:19] * RRSAgent records action 11
# [16:19] <plh> ACTION: Wilhelm to ping the Web Security WG on Simon's proposal
# [16:19] * RRSAgent records action 12
# [16:20] <plh> John: we have non-modal notification, like saveAs, etc.
# [16:20] <plh> Simon: we didn't run into those yet, like geolocation. we just defaulted everything to a particular state
# [16:21] <plh> John: some dialogs have several states, like the activeX (no, never, yes once, yes always)
# [16:22] <plh> Simon: that's leading in extra capabilities in HTML5...
# [16:22] <plh> ... does user media use the same prompt as geoloc? are those consistent?
# [16:22] <plh> David: we're consistent
# [16:22] <plh> John: as we are
# [16:23] <plh> David: we call those door hangers
# [16:23] <plh> [David shows the design]
# [16:23] <plh> [one button with several options]
# [16:24] * Ms2ger photos!
# [16:24] <plh> Simon: so, what do we do? provide an API to allow a capability?
# [16:24] <plh> ... we nuke the profile everytime in Chrome
# [16:25] <plh> ... so always share doesn't really matter
# [16:26] <plh> ... we could override switchTo, like switchTo the permission dialog and then use the existing command (dismiss, ok)
# [16:26] <plh> ... if you ignore the dialog, it will default to No
# [16:27] <plh> Wilhelm: when I test the geoloc spec as a browser vendr, I'd want the four options but that's only 5 orgs in the world
# [16:28] <plh> Simon: you can set a profile...
# [16:28] <plh> Simon: so we want to pick between the two accept states
# [16:28] <plh> Marc: really, it's all four
# [16:28] <plh> ... so it's its own alert object
# [16:29] <plh> ... if we change the wire protocol to allow an index for dialog...
# [16:29] <plh> Simon: so alert response is the end point?
# [16:29] <plh> All: yes
# [16:30] <plh> ACTION: Simon to change the wire protocol to add the alert response and could take 4 responses (yes, yes always, no, no, always)
# [16:30] * RRSAgent records action 13
# [16:30] <plh> John: what about ignore?
# [16:30] <plh> ... it's functionally equivalent to No
# [16:30] <plh> Wilhelm: so 4 options
# [16:31] <plh> John: I still would like to test this...
# [16:31] <plh> Marc: what about a string with predefined values?
# [16:31] <plh> Simon: I'm fine with mandating four and allow extensions
# [16:31] <plh> John: I still would like to have ignore
# [16:31] <AutomatedTester> Ms2ger: I just showed a doorhanger :)
# [16:32] <plh> Simon: if we find it's useful, we can always come back to it in version 1.1
# [16:32] <plh> Simon: a few things to consider now: mocking locations, for image capture, mimicking the data
# [16:33] <plh> Marc: orientation...
# [16:33] * plh wouldn't mind more coffee
# [16:33] <sstewart6> Let's get coffee!
# [16:34] * JohnJansen testing
# [16:34] * sstewart6 waves at JohnJansen
# [16:34] <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
# [16:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/14-testing-minutes.html plh
# [16:51] * Quits: enricostn (~enrico@public.cloak) ("Saliendo")
# [16:54] * Quits: chrisgao (~chrisgao@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [16:56] * Quits: sstewart6 (~simons@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:01] * Joins: chrisgao (~chrisgao@public.cloak)
# [17:01] <kkania> Scribe: kkania
# [17:02] * Joins: sstewart6 (~simons@public.cloak)
# [17:02] <sstewart6> Present+ SimonStewart
# [17:02] <sstewart6> ok
# [17:03] <sstewart6> https://code.google.com/p/selenium/wiki/JsonWireProtocol#/session/:sessionId/location
# [17:04] <kkania> Topic: handling location, camera, and other sensors
# [17:04] <kkania> sstewart6: we have a number of options to do here
# [17:05] <kkania> location, and media capture are probably the big 2
# [17:05] <kkania> that would solve must individual use cases right now
# [17:05] <kkania> JohnJansen: there is a slightly different question
# [17:07] * plh is disappointed we can't agree on a cat picture
# [17:07] <kkania> sstewart6: it sounds like we should ask the people writing the specs to tell us what the best way to supply the mock data is
# [17:07] <sstewart6> plh: there will be a cat picture
# [17:07] <kkania> AutomatedTester: we can mock geolocation in js
# [17:08] <sstewart6> kkania: the link above ponts at the wire protocol
# [17:08] <kkania> sstewart6: I'm suggesting the two we should bake in now are geolocation and media capture
# [17:09] <kkania> plh: what about device orientation?
# [17:09] <kkania> sstewart6: and device orientation
# [17:09] <kkania> sstewart6: so there's three we should bake
# [17:09] <plh> http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source-orientation.html
# [17:10] <sstewart6> Orientation as it is now: https://code.google.com/p/selenium/wiki/JsonWireProtocol#/session/:sessionId/orientation
# [17:10] <kkania> fisherii: portrait/landscape is different from device orientation
# [17:11] <kkania> sstewart6: ok, let's go back to our original two, and allow users to specify whether it is upright or landscape
# [17:12] <kkania> gdennis: there's portrait, landscape, portrait secondary, and landscape secondary
# [17:13] <gdennis> http://www.w3.org/TR/screen-orientation/
# [17:13] <kkania> fisherii: we should base orientation off of this spec
# [17:14] <sstewart6> http://www.w3.org/TR/screen-orientation/#allowed-orientations
# [17:15] <kkania> JohnJansen: I don't know if we support all 4 states
# [17:15] <kkania> gdennis: that could be a no-op
# [17:15] <kkania> fisherii: it could depend on the browser and device
# [17:15] <kkania> fisherii: does the browser actually support that rotation, or device
# [17:15] <kkania> but i think it should throw an exception if it is unsupported orientation
# [17:16] <kkania> gdennis: i don't think it should be an exception, a user can put it in the orientation
# [17:16] <kkania> fisherii: but screen orientation is not the same as the device orientation
# [17:16] <kkania> AutomatedTester: so if we were to do all of this, telling the browser to change the orientation is going to be extremely difficult
# [17:16] <kkania> so in the example of ff os, we can do it on the emulator, but not on real devices
# [17:17] <kkania> AutomatedTester: we can't get the device to change orientation programmatically
# [17:17] <kkania> sstewart6: well you could
# [17:17] <kkania> sstewart6: there are things we'd like to say in the spec, even if the browser can't currently do it
# [17:17] <kkania> AutomatedTester: can we expect the browsers to do this?
# [17:17] <kkania> fisherii: well it's capability based, whether controlling the orientation is possible
# [17:18] <kkania> if the device doesn't support it, the capability should return false
# [17:18] <kkania> wilhelm: so what does happen if you do turn the device in question, does the orientation change
# [17:18] <kkania> wilhelm: if the device can actually do it, we should be able to automate it
# [17:19] <kkania> sstewart6: the language i want in the spec, is if you support a capability, you must provide the functionality
# [17:20] <kkania> sstewart6: so are we happy with orientation, the four orientation values, for geolocation, latitude, longitude, altitidue
# [17:21] <kkania> how long do these things stick for
# [17:21] <kkania> fisherii: until change?
# [17:21] <kkania> fisherii: rest of the session basically
# [17:21] <kkania> sstewart6: ok
# [17:21] <kkania> sstewart6: for media capture, we just allow people to upload a screenshot or something?
# [17:21] <kkania> AutomatedTester: that's interesting, since you can do video and stuff
# [17:22] <kkania> AutomatedTester: for webrtc, that's the biggest use case
# [17:22] <kkania> fisherii: but the video could be a still picture
# [17:22] <kkania> fisherii: and we don't do that well on dynamic things anyways
# [17:22] <kkania> AutomatedTester: that's fine, as long as that is documented
# [17:22] <sstewart6> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-html-media-capture-20120529/
# [17:22] <kkania> wilhelm: we could maybe make it simpler by not needing a picture from the user, but by just coloring the screen example
# [17:23] <kkania> fisherii: camera is easy also, since it is only a single image
# [17:24] <sstewart6> http://www.w3.org/TR/mediacapture-streams/
# [17:25] <kkania> fisherii: all of these are just file pickers on some sense
# [17:25] <kkania> sstewart6: yes, they all upload a file of some sort, but how they capture is differnet
# [17:25] <kkania> fisherii: so we don't have to do anything special about these, just treat them like any other file
# [17:26] <kkania> sstewart6: ok, that makes life a lot easier
# [17:26] <kkania> fisherii: i was thinking when we were talking about media we were talking about media streams
# [17:26] <kkania> sstewart6: i don't think we're ready to tackle that one yet
# [17:28] <wilhelm> Photo demo: http://shinydemos.com/photo-booth/
# [17:29] <kkania> Resolution: we'll support geolocation and screen orientation and handle media capture as standard file inputs; punt on everything else
# [17:30] <kkania> Topic: Local storage and app cache and normal html caches
# [17:30] <sstewart6> https://code.google.com/p/selenium/issues/detail?id=40
# [17:31] <kkania> sstewart6: this is one of the oldest selenium bugs
# [17:31] <kkania> fisherii: you can clear the cookies now
# [17:31] <kkania> sstewart6: so that's interesting, since we can't clear the httponly cookies
# [17:31] <kkania> sstewart6: so, clearing caches, can we do it, should we allow it
# [17:33] <kkania> sstewart6: at google, people often wanted pre-warmed app caches so when they hit the site they could just start doing things
# [17:33] <kkania> instead of going through all the hoops
# [17:33] <kkania> fisherii: so they wanted to start with a known state
# [17:33] <kkania> can't you do that in ff by serializing the profile
# [17:34] <kkania> sstewart6: so there's three different caches, html and cookie cache, app cache, and local storage
# [17:34] <kkania> plh: what about index db?
# [17:34] <plh> s/index/indexed/
# [17:34] <kkania> sstewart6: and indexeddb
# [17:35] <kkania> fisherii: i assumes this is because the don't want to incur overhead of restarting the browser
# [17:35] <kkania> sstewart6: or if they're using IE, which doesn't use a clean profile per run
# [17:35] <kkania> sstewart6: or some mobile browsers
# [17:36] <kkania> fisherii: I would find this useful personally, if we could nuke all of that state
# [17:37] * Quits: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [17:38] <kkania> plh: what about clearing security state or geolocation ...?
# [17:40] <kkania> sstewart6: ok, so we don't support clearing caches midway thru, but we guarantee on start up things are in a clean state
# [17:41] <kkania> fisherii: except IE can't guarantee clean state
# [17:41] <kkania> sstewart6: the spec should aim high
# [17:42] <kkania> John: you can tell IE to clean the state on exit
# [17:42] <kkania> fisherii: ok, that's good; although there's still difficulty on mobile
# [17:43] <kkania> sstewart6: should it be a should or a must
# [17:44] <kkania> John: I think it should be a should
# [17:44] <kkania> AutomatedTester: should be a must, but pragmatically a should
# [17:44] <kkania> sstewart6: let's start with a must right now, and we'll have a chance for review
# [17:45] <kkania> plh: is there a way to test this is implemented
# [17:45] <kkania> sstewart6: yes, there is, load a file, delete it, and try to access it again
# [17:46] <kkania> sstewart6: or we could stick a proxy in the way, start a new session, configure with a proxy, request a file, and then request it again, the first time with proper caching headers; restarting the browser, it should download the file again
# [17:46] <kkania> plh: or you can just do local storage
# [17:46] <kkania> fisherii: we want tests for all these aspects of state
# [17:46] <kkania> fisherii: when we talk about the state, we should define what we mean
# [17:47] * Joins: jhammel (~jhammel@public.cloak)
# [17:47] * Parts: jhammel (~jhammel@public.cloak) (jhammel)
# [17:47] <kkania> sstewart6: i think you're right, anyone disagree?

The end :)