/irc-logs / w3c / #testing / 2013-06-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 18 00:00:01 2013
  2. # Session Ident: #testing
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  36. # [18:01] <krisk> Hello #testing!
  37. # [18:03] <krisk> We can wait a few minutes to see if others attend the meeting and I'll go take a peek at #htmlt to make sure not one forgot
  38. # [18:03] <krisk> ..about switching IRC channels for the HTML Testing Task Force Meeting
  39. # [18:04] * Joins: mdyck1 (~michael@public.cloak)
  40. # [18:05] <krisk> hober is the only one on #HTMLT
  41. # [18:06] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak)
  42. # [18:06] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/06/18-testing-irc
  43. # [18:07] <krisk> I see a number of people on the IRC - nice
  44. # [18:07] <krisk> We are going to start the HTML Testing Meeting
  45. # [18:07] <krisk> Agenda -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/2013Jun/0003.html
  46. # [18:07] <krisk> Note that we don't have a conf call setup, IRC has worked very well...
  47. # [18:08] <krisk> ...though if someone really wants a conf call we can ask the w3c to set it up again.
  48. # [18:11] <krisk> TOPIC: Tokyo Test The Web Forward - any feedback/thoughts to make this better?
  49. # [18:12] <tobie> On the TestTWF subject:
  50. # [18:12] * Quits: mdyck1 (~michael@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  51. # [18:12] <tobie> heads-up that Adobe is giving W3C the brand.
  52. # [18:12] <krisk> Watching github it looks like we had a number of submissions (good)
  53. # [18:12] <tobie> which will be used as the umbrella brand for the whole web testing effort
  54. # [18:13] * Joins: mdyck (~michael@public.cloak)
  55. # [18:13] <tobie> events will continue to be organized by the folks who have organized them so far
  56. # [18:13] * Joins: mdyck_web (~mdyck_web@public.cloak)
  57. # [18:13] <tobie> We're busy transitioning the website right now.
  58. # [18:13] <tobie> repo is here:
  59. # [18:13] * Joins: Bin_Hu (~Bin_Hu@public.cloak)
  60. # [18:14] <krisk> Hello Bin!
  61. # [18:14] * Parts: mdyck (~michael@public.cloak) (mdyck)
  62. # [18:14] <Bin_Hu> Hi Kris
  63. # [18:14] <tobie> https://github.com/w3c/testtwf-website
  64. # [18:14] <krisk> tobie: I see that :)
  65. # [18:14] <tobie> staging url: http://www.testthewebforward-staging.org/
  66. # [18:14] <krisk> Tobie are you now the new Rebecca?
  67. # [18:15] <tobie> krisk: no, the plan is for events related things to continue as before
  68. # [18:15] <krisk> OK
  69. # [18:15] <tobie> we might formalize it with a task force as part of the Web Testing IG
  70. # [18:16] <Ms2ger> Another task force?
  71. # [18:16] <tobie> Ms2ger: yeah whatever
  72. # [18:17] <tobie> TF = name for a group of people where one does all the work and legitimizes it by virtue of the presence of the others in the group.
  73. # [18:17] <tobie> don't quote me on that.
  74. # [18:17] <tobie> :P
  75. # [18:17] <Ms2ger> A Tobie Force, if you will
  76. # [18:17] <Bin_Hu> :)
  77. # [18:18] <tobie> except I wouldn't be doing anything in that area.
  78. # [18:18] <krisk> tobie did you attend the event?
  79. # [18:18] <tobie> I did.
  80. # [18:18] <tobie> I can even prove it:
  81. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> I'm just sad that we had a nice list of things we'd like tests for, and nothing materialized
  82. # [18:18] <krisk> It looks like some FORM tests were created for HTML, good
  83. # [18:18] <tobie> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0K8EnEicV-U/Ub8nSvFwjJI/AAAAAAAAXaw/ZSQlt4f42tc/s320/IMG_20130608_171557-MOTION.gif
  84. # [18:19] <krisk> ..but that is about it, bad
  85. # [18:19] <tobie> (dino attack)
  86. # [18:20] <tobie> So everything we can do to help answer the question of "where should I start?" is a winner.
  87. # [18:20] * Ms2ger wonders when the tf meetings shifted a week
  88. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> And an hour
  89. # [18:20] <krisk> * I never would have been able to come up with an url like that - the capital ZSQ in the thrid folder amazingly creative!
  90. # [18:20] <Ms2ger> (Because I have it scheduled for next week at 5pm, not this week at 6pm)
  91. # [18:21] <tobie> Ms2ger: likewise.
  92. # [18:21] <tobie> I'm here by accident and against my will.
  93. # [18:22] <krisk> tobie: seems like at some point we could be more direct on the 'http://www.testthewebforward-staging.org/' site and ask for specific test focus areas
  94. # [18:22] <tobie> wondering if generating templates already in the repo would help
  95. # [18:22] <tobie> krisk: agreed
  96. # [18:23] <krisk> action: update http://www.testthewebforward-staging.org/ to enumerate specs and areas in specs that need tests
  97. # [18:23] * RRSAgent records action 1
  98. # [18:25] <krisk> moving on...
  99. # [18:25] <krisk> TOPIC: CfC: Approve overview of testing in view of permissive CR exit criteria
  100. # [18:26] <krisk> The HTML co-chairs posted this http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Jun/0033.html
  101. # [18:27] <krisk> The deadline is July 15th to list sections in the spec that are 'green' and should not be 'green'
  102. # [18:28] <Ms2ger> I propose the following response from the TF: "Though the vast majority of the specification is severely lacking in tests and interoperability, any time spent on objections to this CfC would be wasted."
  103. # [18:30] <krisk> I was looking at it in a different view - are all the sections in 'green' really 'green'
  104. # [18:31] <tobie> On the testing front, we'd like to distinguish between tests needed to prove the HTML5 spec can be implemented in an interoperable way (so that it can move along the REC track) from tests needed to prove user agents implement the specs correctly and in an interoperable way. It's the latter we're interested in and that will make for a better, more interoperable web.
  105. # [18:32] <krisk> For example section 3.3 Interactions with XPath and XSLT
  106. # [18:32] <Bin_Hu> Agree to Tobie that we need to prove user agents implement the specs correctly and in an interoperable way.
  107. # [18:33] <Bin_Hu> I think CFC is for the former one, i.e to move along the REC track.
  108. # [18:33] <tobie> Bin_Hu: it is.
  109. # [18:33] <tobie> I don't have an opinion on the specifics. For the testing project, this document can help prioritization and gives us an indication of the areas in which HTML WG members will need to author tests.
  110. # [18:34] <Bin_Hu> The CFC shouldn't be the guideline for our ongoing testing work and goal in this open web testing effort
  111. # [18:34] <tobie> Beyond that, we'll ultimately need full coverage.
  112. # [18:34] <Bin_Hu> Yes, we need full coverage.
  113. # [18:35] * tobie has to run out.
  114. # [18:35] <mdyck_web> tobie: i don't understand how you can distinguish the two kinds of tests
  115. # [18:36] <tobie> mdyck_web: I tentatively agree.
  116. # [18:36] <krisk> Well if anyone has a specifics sections that should not be 'green' then please provide data that shows this is not the case.
  117. # [18:36] <tobie> To move along the REC track, a WG has to convince the director that the spec is implementable in an interop way.
  118. # [18:37] <krisk> I don't think the co-chairs or HTML WG will disagree
  119. # [18:37] <tobie> mdyck_web: two implementations that claim interop is usually sufficient.
  120. # [18:38] <Bin_Hu> Glenn pointed several sections, but got pushed back
  121. # [18:38] <tobie> mdyck_web: claiming interop can be backed up by tests, or other relevant data.
  122. # [18:39] <tobie> mdyck_web: e.g. no complain by developers about a given section could be considered.
  123. # [18:41] <krisk> Bin: glenn raised and issue with section(s) 4.8.9 and 4.8.10.12
  124. # [18:41] <krisk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2013Jun/0036.html
  125. # [18:41] <krisk> But these sections are not 'green'
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  128. # [18:43] <krisk> I'm pretty sure if Glenn listed a section that was green and had a test or two that showed this section of the spec has issues
  129. # [18:44] <krisk> ..the section would no longer be 'green'
  130. # [18:44] <krisk> So basically the ask to the group would be that is a section is 'green' and you don't agree just respond back by July 15th with test(s) that show otherwise
  131. # [18:46] <krisk> Here is the link in case someone doesn't have it http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tests-cr-exit.html
  132. # [18:48] <krisk> ms2ger: would you be against this response...
  133. # [18:49] <krisk> "Though the vast majority of the specification is severely lacking in tests and interoperability, here is a list of sections that really should not be marked as 'green'.
  134. # [18:49] <krisk> Then a list...
  135. # [18:49] <Ms2ger> I have no interest in spending time on compiling that list
  136. # [18:51] <krisk> If others do have data feel free to enumerate at the next meeting or on the list
  137. # [18:53] <mdyck_web> Ms2ger: because you believe it won't make a difference?
  138. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> Because I don't think it's a useful thing to do
  139. # [18:54] <Ms2ger> I don't care at all about the HTMLWG's publications
  140. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> And no, I don't think any such objection would delay the publication by a minute
  141. # [18:58] <Bin_Hu> need to run and talk to you next time
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  143. # [19:01] <krisk> Ok lets adjorn
  144. # [19:01] <krisk> RRSAgent, make logs public
  145. # [19:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, krisk
  146. # [19:02] <krisk> RRSAgent, generate minutes
  147. # [19:02] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/06/18-testing-minutes.html krisk
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  165. # [22:48] <jgraham> So I only think it would be worth spending time pushing back on the W3C list if it would actually get more high quality tests written for the additional sections
  166. # [22:48] <jgraham> It might get more tests written
  167. # [22:49] <jgraham> But I am skeptical that people mainly motivated by "reach Rec." are going to be incentivised to write deep testcases
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  170. # Session Close: Wed Jun 19 00:00:00 2013

The end :)