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- # Session Ident: #testing
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- # [11:16] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] AutomatedTester pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/75cadadaef0b...fe77ee14af50
- # [11:16] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 9957d6e AutomatedTester: Add the ability to test discovery of webdriver tests and only start a browser for each test class
- # [11:16] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master fe77ee1 David Burns: Merge pull request #251 from AutomatedTester/runtests...
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- # [11:37] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] sgrekhov synchronize pull request #135: Submission/unipro (master...submission/unipro) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/135
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- # [15:07] <AutomatedTester> tobie: did you ever send that email about issues with using python?
- # [15:11] <darobin> that would be one very long email
- # [15:11] * darobin sorry, goes back under bridge
- # [15:11] <AutomatedTester> ;)
- # [15:11] <AutomatedTester> darobin: and yet people want to use PHP here...
- # [15:12] <darobin> heh
- # [15:12] * AutomatedTester goes to get a fire hose in case of flame war
- # [15:12] <darobin> there should be a PHP equivalent to Godwin's
- # [15:14] <andreastt> Whatever people perceive as the lowest common denominator seems like the best choice in this situation.
- # [15:14] <jgraham> Please tell me that either a) you are talking about something different to what I think you are talking about or b) people aren't going o start objecting to python now
- # [15:15] <jgraham> The choices for the server sides of tests are: a) python b) nothing
- # [15:15] <AutomatedTester> jgraham: we are in agreement there
- # [15:15] <andreastt> The context is language of controlling the browser OOP.
- # [15:16] <jgraham> It's the only language that is Mozilla approved, Google approved and doesn't cause a nasty rash in Microsoft reps
- # [15:16] <AutomatedTester> when out of process we use python as its the least politically unencumbered language
- # [15:16] <AutomatedTester> jgraham: exactly!
- # [15:16] <andreastt> The alternatives proposed are PHP and JS.
- # [15:17] <AutomatedTester> jgraham: isnt Python Opera approved as well?
- # [15:17] <jgraham> Yes, Python is also Opera approved
- # [15:18] <AutomatedTester> jgraham: there was talk that some working groups are anti python for out of process tests
- # [15:18] <jgraham> On email?
- # [15:18] <AutomatedTester> no on irc
- # [15:18] <AutomatedTester> I thought tobie was going to send an email about it
- # [15:18] <andreastt> I'd like to know which groups that is.
- # [15:19] <jgraham> I think "sorry" is the only response to that
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- # [15:19] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] r12a opened pull request #252: First batch of i18n tests: translate mode (master...r12a/i18n-tests) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/252
- # [15:19] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
- # [15:21] <jgraham> Hmmm
- # [15:21] <AutomatedTester> writing PHP tests for OOP makes me feel like this http://i.imgur.com/VszIIYO.gif
- # [15:21] <jgraham> I think I just unsubscribed myself from ~everything
- # [15:24] <jgraham> darobin: Is it possible to work out which lists I am actually subscribed to?
- # [15:25] <darobin> jgraham: https://www.w3.org/Member/Mail/AuditForm
- # [15:26] <jgraham> darobin: I am temporarily not a Member
- # [15:26] <jgraham> or a member of a Member, if you like
- # [15:27] <darobin> jgraham: you left opera?
- # [15:27] <jgraham> darobin: Yes
- # [15:28] <darobin> jgraham: msg me the email you want me to test and I'll give you the results
- # [15:28] <darobin> whoa
- # [15:28] <darobin> no one ever tells me the really important news
- # [15:28] <darobin> do you know where you're going?
- # [15:28] <jgraham> Mozilla
- # [15:28] <darobin> cool!
- # [15:28] <darobin> congrats man
- # [15:28] <darobin> are you moving?
- # [15:28] <jgraham> So yes, Hallvord did it first
- # [15:28] <darobin> as did Marcos and Anne :)
- # [15:28] <jgraham> Moving to London
- # [15:28] <darobin> sweet!
- # [15:29] <darobin> or rather, I hope you find it sweet
- # [15:29] <darobin> (I would)
- # [15:29] <jgraham> I hope so too. Should be pretty different to Linkoping at least
- # [15:29] <darobin> "O'"
- # [15:29] <darobin> bah
- # [15:29] <darobin> "I'm moving to London, looking forward to enjoy the better weather"
- # [15:30] <jgraham> Heh
- # [15:30] <andreastt> jgraham: That is possibly the understatement of the year. d-:
- # [15:30] <darobin> jgraham: anyway, congrats, and just give me that email address if you want the MailAudit thing
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- # [15:31] * AutomatedTester is not complaining at the people who are coming over.... :D
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- # [15:46] <tobie> AutomatedTester: not yet.
- # [15:46] <tobie> AutomatedTester: I'm waiting for the right people to be on holidays so I can have it my way.
- # [15:47] <tobie> AutomatedTester: BTW, when are you leaving this Summer?
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- # [15:52] <darobin> haha
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- # [15:52] <AutomatedTester> tobie: well there is no choice
- # [15:53] <AutomatedTester> tobie: people may feel that they can use something other than python for out of process but they can't really...
- # [15:54] <tobie> yeah, at the end of the day, this is a tradeoff between making it easy for browser vendors to run the tests or making it easy for developers to author them.
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- # [15:56] <ArtB> congrats jgraham and good luck!
- # [15:57] * ArtB makes note to ping dbaron re jgraham ;)
- # [16:01] <jgraham> s/easy for vendors/possible for vendors/
- # [16:03] * andreastt refuses to install PHP and to write a PHP wrapper to run tests
- # [16:03] <andreastt> (I make the Opera test runners FWIW.)
- # [16:04] <jgraham> Indeed. No one wants to run PHP on their test clients. Everyone (except, perhaps, Microsoft) already runs python
- # [16:05] <AutomatedTester> and they *could* use iron python
- # [16:06] <AutomatedTester> since they both go down to the CIL -> CLR
- # [16:06] <AutomatedTester> as c#
- # [16:11] <jgraham> Yeah, it would be pretty interesting to know if that actually works. It's supposed to be python 2.7 compatible, so I guess it should
- # [16:20] <tobie> For the record, I'm certainly not pushing for a PHP-based option. :)
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- # [17:07] <gsnedders> AutomatedTester, jgraham: IronPython is practically unmaintained and is really hard to get running anything properly.
- # [17:08] <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: :(
- # [17:08] <AutomatedTester> a few years ago it was great
- # [17:08] <gsnedders> I say this, but seemingly there's a new release just out.
- # [17:08] <AutomatedTester> yea I saw that but assumed you knew more than me ;)
- # [17:11] <gsnedders> Also note there's plenty of package management stuff on Python that cannot be easily installed :(
- # [17:12] <andreastt> I was about to say earlier that we've so far conciously kept all of the dependencies to the standard library.
- # [17:13] <andreastt> I am unsure if that's sustainable in the future.
- # [17:15] <gsnedders> I don't think it's even a worthwhile goal.
- # [17:16] <andreastt> Well certain vendors (Mozilla) I think has some explicit requirements about that.
- # [17:19] <AutomatedTester> yea, we dont install dependencies
- # [17:19] <AutomatedTester> its either in our tree or stdlib
- # [17:20] <gsnedders> What's the justification for that? (Given there are plenty of other dependencies that have to be installed manually!)
- # [17:21] <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: our build/test farm doesnt have access to package managers
- # [17:21] <AutomatedTester> or the internet
- # [17:22] <gsnedders> AutomatedTester: But why special case testing dependencies compared with binary (Firefox, Thunderbird, w/e) dependencies?
- # [17:22] <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: that way we know what is going into a build and how it should affect things
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- # [17:22] <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: because any bit of code has an impact
- # [17:23] <AutomatedTester> test runners, sites, etc
- # [17:23] <AutomatedTester> if people are writing tests to external websites they are doing it wrong imho
- # [17:23] <jgraham> Oh yeah, we all agree with that
- # [17:23] <AutomatedTester> things change and then suddenly you have failures
- # [17:23] <gsnedders> AutomatedTester: Sure — I'm not questioning the benefit of *that*.
- # [17:23] <jgraham> I think gsnedders means depending on, say, requests
- # [17:23] <AutomatedTester> ok, I dont understand your question
- # [17:24] <jgraham> Which is not in the stdlib
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- # [17:24] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] r12a synchronize pull request #252: First batch of i18n tests: translate mode (master...r12a/i18n-tests) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/252
- # [17:24] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
- # [17:24] <AutomatedTester> then we have it in our tree
- # [17:24] <AutomatedTester> relying on pypi is foolish
- # [17:24] <AutomatedTester> its so flaky
- # [17:24] <jgraham> Well you wouldn't really rely on pypi
- # [17:24] <gsnedders> AutomatedTester: I'm questioning why you need to have randomTestDependency in the tree but not randomFirefoxDependency. If any bit of code has an impact and you all want it in the tree, then why don't you have the X server in the tree, for example?
- # [17:24] <jgraham> Although it has a CDN these days
- # [17:25] <jgraham> You would really have a local package repo that you would use when provisioning the test machines, much like you would for system packages
- # [17:25] <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: because there is a trade off
- # [17:26] <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: VMs can be managed by puppet and are updated once
- # [17:26] <gsnedders> Because… damn it, jgraham, stop beating me to what I was about to say.
- # [17:26] <jgraham> (having stuff in the tree does mean that you have to be more careful about licensing)
- # [17:26] <AutomatedTester> since we use python for things we can easily blow away a virtualenv and restart stuff
- # [17:26] <AutomatedTester> jgraham: we are very careful about licences
- # [17:27] <jgraham> AutomatedTester: Sure
- # [17:27] <gsnedders> Have a local PyPI mirror on the VM, install specific versions of packages. You don't need to change anything, but you don't need them in the tree any more.
- # [17:27] <AutomatedTester> gsnedders: and contributors? how would they get them
- # [17:27] <AutomatedTester> do we upload to both pypi and local mirror
- # [17:27] <gsnedders> AutomatedTester: From PyPI itself.
- # [17:27] <AutomatedTester> what if we forget one
- # [17:27] <jgraham> Well that is a problem for all of the system, isn't it?
- # [17:28] <gsnedders> AutomatedTester: You don't forget one. You only have PyPI and you have it all mirrored.
- # [17:28] <AutomatedTester> yea but we can mitigate stuff why not
- # [17:28] <jgraham> How can a contributer get the exact glibc version, or gcc version, or whatever?
- # [17:28] <jgraham> Do you publish the puppet scripts?
- # [17:28] <AutomatedTester> dont know that is handled by releng
- # [17:29] <jgraham> I think my answwer would be "put somthing like 'requirements.txt' in the tree"
- # [17:29] <AutomatedTester> we arent going to do that
- # [17:29] <AutomatedTester> also how do you prevent malicious mitm attacks on packages?
- # [17:29] <jgraham> Which can then be used to auto-install the packages into a virtualenv using pip
- # [17:29] <jgraham> AutomatedTester: For whom? Contributers or the test machines?
- # [17:30] <AutomatedTester> test machines
- # [17:30] <AutomatedTester> build machines that is
- # [17:30] <AutomatedTester> both
- # [17:30] <gsnedders> MITM attack when installing?
- # [17:30] <jgraham> For the test machines you install the packages once into the machine-local pypi mirror
- # [17:31] <jgraham> With puppet or whatever
- # [17:31] <jgraham> and then you create your virtualenv from that machine-local copy
- # [17:31] <gsnedders> The mirroring is done by HTTPS, so provided the cert matches there should be no MITM.
- # [17:32] <jgraham> Indeed, it doesn't seem more mitm-susceptiable than dpkg
- # [17:32] <gsnedders> (And if you're running pip < 1.3, upgrade.)
- # [17:32] <jgraham> (wrong collection of letters in there I think)
- # [17:33] <jgraham> Anyway, having things in the tree presumbly works fine
- # [17:33] <AutomatedTester> works fine for lots of companies
- # [17:33] <AutomatedTester> Facebook, Google, Mozilla
- # [17:34] <AutomatedTester> system packages are just required to do certain things and we can build with out them
- # [17:34] <AutomatedTester> e.g. WebRTC codecs
- # [17:34] <jgraham> Well yeah, but you can't build without e.g. gcc, and you don't supply that in the tree
- # [17:34] <AutomatedTester> but if someone wants to test something locally it helps to make sure that their repo, barring them not pulling latest code, is the same
- # [17:35] <AutomatedTester> as I said trade offs
- # [17:37] <jgraham> I think the system where you have a requirements.txt file that pip can use to automatically install all the dependencies, with the exact version specified in the file, also solves the problem of getting people set up with the right environment.
- # [17:37] <jgraham> At least for python packages
- # [17:38] <gsnedders> (In a sense, what irks me about this with stuff like Chromium is the sheer size of all the dependency repos you have to pull to get it. There are surely better ways of achieving the same goal…)
- # [17:38] <jgraham> But I guess there might be an extra step depending on the exact setup
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- # [17:44] <jgraham> I suppose it also makes changing the versions of dependencies harder
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- # [18:05] <Bin_Hu> Kris, any news or update?
- # [18:06] <krisk> Happy to chat about HTML5 testing
- # [18:06] <Bin_Hu> Cool, Kris
- # [18:07] <krisk> I don't have any big updates, other than to say that with IE11 being available I have some tests to submit
- # [18:09] <jgraham> Yay tests!
- # [18:09] <jgraham> Boo lack of reviewing
- # [18:09] <Bin_Hu> In which area (i.e. which sections do those tests cover)?
- # [18:09] * jgraham is doing some reviewing right now in fact
- # [18:09] <Bin_Hu> Those "at risk"?
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- # [18:09] <krisk> Some HTML5, some other stuff not in HTML5 per se but a w3c standard
- # [18:10] <krisk> I'd love to say we wrote some tests and they all just passed in all browsers
- # [18:10] <krisk> But actually what we find is that they end up failing in one or more browsers that have added this feature
- # [18:11] <Bin_Hu> I see. For HTML5 related, do those tests cover some sections of "at risk" or "tests required"?
- # [18:12] <Bin_Hu> "one or more browsers", so which browsers passed, and which failed?
- # [18:12] <Bin_Hu> Yesterday, HTML Accessibility Task Force submitted a bunch of issues, indicating to change from "Interoperable" to "Tests Required".
- # [18:13] <krisk> I only ran major desktop browsers (Firefox, chrome) I did run Opera but the pre chromium version.
- # [18:13] <jgraham> krisk: That sounds ideal :) Tests that just show everyone passing pobably weren't good enough tests
- # [18:13] <krisk> I have not installed the new chromium based Opera (yet)
- # [18:13] <jgraham> 88 open reviews in web-platform-tests btw
- # [18:14] <jgraham> Not sure how many are html, but I can probably work that out
- # [18:14] <Bin_Hu> Sounds good, jgraham.
- # [18:14] <krisk> I may look to review some of them though my schedule is getting a bit more 'free'
- # [18:15] <Bin_Hu> BTW, Kris or jgraham, do you know what's up of the overall test program (in addition to some cleanup of documentation work)?
- # [18:16] <krisk> ping tobie
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- # [18:17] <Bin_Hu> Our hero Tobie is here :)
- # [18:18] <jgraham> krisk: (For the record, I am not at Opera any more. In a few weeks I start at Mozilla. Hopefully andreastt will keep an eye on these meetings/public-test-infra for things that affect Opera)
- # [18:18] <Bin_Hu> Tobie, would share some update of the overall test initiatives (in addition to some cleanup of documentation stuff)?
- # [18:18] <tobie> What did I do again?
- # [18:18] * jgraham hopes that andreastt doesn't mind being signed up for work ;)
- # [18:19] <krisk> james are you moving to the bay area?
- # [18:19] <Bin_Hu> Congratulations James for your new adventure
- # [18:19] <tobie> Oh darn. irc meeting now?
- # [18:19] <jgraham> krisk: London
- # [18:19] <jgraham> Bin_Hu: Thanks
- # [18:19] <jgraham> Oh and simonp (zcorpan) ofc
- # [18:20] <jgraham> (will continue to represent Opera)
- # [18:20] <krisk> odin?
- # [18:20] <jgraham> Him too
- # [18:20] <jgraham> Lots of people!
- # [18:20] <krisk> good to know
- # [18:21] <odinho> I'm in Desktop though, so I don't do much w3c-related things in my work time.
- # [18:23] <Bin_Hu> Tobie, would you share some update of the overall test initiatives (in addition to some cleanup of documentation stuff)?
- # [18:24] <tobie> I'll be posting about this shortly.
- # [18:25] <Bin_Hu> Great Tobie. Thank you
- # [18:25] <tobie> Regarding documentation stuff, there's a lot of clean-up work to do.
- # [18:26] <Bin_Hu> What work should I help? I am very happy to do the work
- # [18:26] <mdyck_> Is all the documentation in more-or-less the right place now?
- # [18:28] <tobie> No. Far from it.
- # [18:28] <Bin_Hu> I guess I lack of the overall picture of the documentaton structure you have architected.
- # [18:29] <jgraham> Might be 18 open reviews in html/ or I might have got the SQL wrong
- # [18:29] <mdyck_> is there a map of where things are and where they need to move to?
- # [18:29] <Bin_Hu> What we did was to simply pull existing documentation from every places we know of
- # [18:30] <tobie> mdyck_: it's in a mixed state at this point
- # [18:30] <tobie> there are a lot of resources out there
- # [18:30] <tobie> Compiling the required ones.
- # [18:30] <jgraham> tobie: It would be nice to soft-launch the site even though it isn't "done" yet
- # [18:30] <tobie> Killing the outdated ones, etc.
- # [18:31] <tobie> it is soft launched already.
- # [18:31] <tobie> :)
- # [18:31] <Bin_Hu> But it was unclear what is the best way to organize it and how it fits future plan of process
- # [18:31] <jgraham> Well yeah, but soft-enough that I couldn't remember the URL when I wanted to point some people at the docs :)
- # [18:31] <tobie> heh
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- # [18:32] <tobie> Bin_Hu: agreed. It needs folks familiar with what's going on to step in.
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- # [18:32] <tobie> rhauck is going to do so for the reftest aspec
- # [18:33] <tobie> *aspect
- # [18:34] <tobie> jgraham: we'll make a soft launch with a better URL soon.
- # [18:34] <tobie> jgraham: needed to get through legal first for a bunch of reasons.
- # [18:34] <tobie> Got this cleared a couple of days ago.
- # [18:35] <jgraham> OK
- # [18:37] <Bin_Hu> For reftest, agreed that it needs some CSS expert to clean it up
- # [18:39] <tobie> Github doc needs update too
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- # [18:40] <tobie> So does testharness stuff.
- # [18:40] <tobie> (Can't remember what the issues were off the top of my head)
- # [18:40] <Bin_Hu> Ok, I can do that - re-read and update them - Github doc and testharness doc
- # [18:41] <Bin_Hu> Question: there are 2 different sources where I pulled testharness docs: Robin's turotial and the doc extracted from the source code of testharness.js
- # [18:41] <tobie> Bin_Hu: if you do, please make sure to run the build locall.
- # [18:41] <tobie> locally
- # [18:41] <tobie> Your last PR broke the build.
- # [18:42] <Bin_Hu> I will run the build locally
- # [18:42] <Bin_Hu> sorry for that
- # [18:42] <tobie> re testharness doc: one is reference material.
- # [18:42] <tobie> The other a tutorial
- # [18:42] <tobie> it would be cool to keep the format for the tutorial
- # [18:43] <Bin_Hu> Got it. I will base it on the tutorial, and add those missing stuff from the source code doc if needed
- # [18:43] <tobie> no you probably want a reference doc
- # [18:43] <tobie> and the tutorial
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- # [18:47] <Bin_Hu> ok. I agree
- # [18:49] <Bin_Hu> BTW, do you have an overall documentation structure (i.e. site map) of the expected doc site?
- # [18:51] <Bin_Hu> I will keep on working on Github docs, and testharness doc (2 separate docs - 1 tutorial and 1 reference doc).
- # [18:51] <Bin_Hu> I will communicate with you if I have any question or issue
- # [18:51] <Bin_Hu> Thanks Tobie
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- # [19:06] <tobie> Bin_Hu: I don't really have a site map for the doc site (haven't had the time to look into it).
- # [19:07] <tobie> Bin_Hu: I imagined something along the lines of the work Dzenana Trenutak did would be good enough.
- # [19:16] <Bin_Hu> I see, and thank you. I agree that it would be good enough too for now.
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The end :)
