/irc-logs / w3c / #testing / 2013-11-12 / end

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55. # [01:54] * MichaelC wilhelm, if you guys have some time for meeting with PF today, we are open to time
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73. # [02:10] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-irc
74. # [02:11] <wilhelm> Meeting: Browser Tools and Testing WG, WebDriver spec
75. # [02:11] <wilhelm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
76. # [02:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html wilhelm
77. # [02:12] <wilhelm> RRSAgent, make logs public
78. # [02:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, wilhelm
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81. # [02:14] * simonste_ changes topic to 'Day 2 of WebDriver: interactions APIs, timelines, v1.1'
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86. # [02:17] * simonste_ is now known as simonstewart
87. # [02:18] <wilhelm> (We're waiting for the last laggards, starting a little later than planned.)
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93. # [02:21] <simonstewart> scribe: simonstewart
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95. # [02:21] <wilhelm> Chair: wilhelm
96. # [02:21] <wilhelm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
97. # [02:21] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html wilhelm
98. # [02:21] <wilhelm> Scribe: simonstewart
99. # [02:22] <wilhelm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
100. # [02:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html wilhelm
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102. # [02:22] <simonstewart> Introductions
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104. # [02:22] <simonstewart> MikeSmith asks if there's anyone new
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106. # [02:23] <simonstewart> garykac Gary Kackmarcik
107. # [02:23] <simonstewart> garykac from Google
108. # [02:23] <simonstewart> s/Kackmarcik/Kacmarik/
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112. # [02:23] <simonstewart> s/Kacmarik/Kacmarcik/
113. # [02:23] <garykac> s/Kacmarik/Kacmarcik/ ^_^
114. # [02:23] <simonstewart> @@ interest in console api
115. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> i/Introductions/Topic: Introductions/
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118. # [02:25] <simonstewart> MikeSmith: no-one's working on the console api right now, but if we had an editor
119. # [02:25] <simonstewart> More introductions (same as yesterday)
120. # [02:26] <simonstewart> wilhelm, MikeSmith, MarcFisher
121. # [02:26] <simonstewart> Observer introductions
122. # [02:26] <MikeSmith> s/@@/Alois Reitbauer -
123. # [02:26] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
124. # [02:26] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
125. # [02:26] <MikeSmith> _win 27
126. # [02:26] <MikeSmith> s/_win 27//
127. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
128. # [02:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
129. # [02:27] <simonstewart> wilhelm looks up meeting agenda
130. # [02:27] <simonstewart> First topic: interactions
131. # [02:27] <wilhelm> http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2013-TPAC-F2F
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133. # [02:28] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
134. # [02:28] <simonstewart> garykac: the components that the DOM spec needs.
135. # [02:28] <simonstewart> Mouse is pretty simple: just need mouse move, over, etc. Seems straight forward
136. # [02:29] <simonstewart> Keyboard events: want to be able to test US ASCII, but also international keybaord. Want to test "given a layout, what events are generated"
137. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> s/MikeSmith/MikeSmith, Chris Gao/
138. # [02:29] <simonstewart> Being able to automatically change layout is desirable.
139. # [02:29] <simonstewart> Also generate dead keys
140. # [02:29] <simonstewart> Also creating IME composition events
141. # [02:30] <simonstewart> Those are the big things. Undoubtedly need more
142. # [02:30] <simonstewart> :)
143. # [02:30] <wilhelm> Scribe: wilhelm
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145. # [02:30] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Mouse is pretty easy.
146. # [02:31] <wilhelm> ... There's a limited range of APIs that we're expecting to generate.
147. # [02:31] <wilhelm> ... click, dbclick, contextclick, mousedown, mousedown.
148. # [02:31] <wilhelm> ... OS-level.
149. # [02:31] <wilhelm> ... These events are on the other side of the glass.
150. # [02:31] <wilhelm> .... How does the browser process all these things?
151. # [02:31] <wilhelm> ... We discussed yesterday scroll wheel.
152. # [02:32] <wilhelm> garykac: Would that include ticks? There's pixels and ticks.
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154. # [02:32] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Undecided.
155. # [02:32] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Keyboard: presskey, releasekey, send a string of characters
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157. # [02:32] <wilhelm> ... Just a charsequence.
158. # [02:32] <wilhelm> ... With webelement.sendkeys, we allow people to send internationalized text
159. # [02:33] <wilhelm> garykac: For Japanese, I don't want to send the full string.
160. # [02:33] <wilhelm> simonstewart: The commands on webelement are do-as-I-mean.
161. # [02:33] <wilhelm> ... The advanced actions are do-as-I-say.
162. # [02:33] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Initial implementation just blasted the value in.
163. # [02:34] <wilhelm> ... To do the second case, there is the ability to have a IME engine in the open source web driver.
164. # [02:34] <wilhelm> MarcFisher: There are functions to call, but they are not neccessarily working.
165. # [02:34] <wilhelm> simonstewart: IME-handler
166. # [02:34] <wilhelm> ... Will list the available engines.
167. # [02:35] <wilhelm> ... Your test will be very brittle, as it relies on a specific IME engine.
168. # [02:35] <wilhelm> garykac: Scan code?
169. # [02:35] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Initial implementation does some calculation to figure out the scan code. Specify A, queries the OS.
170. # [02:35] <wilhelm> garykac: This needs to be controlled in the tests.
171. # [02:35] <wilhelm> garykac: I want to test A on a French keyboard...
172. # [02:36] <wilhelm> simonstewart: We're not an OS level automation API, but browser. We'll take advantage of the machine.
173. # [02:36] <wilhelm> ... For testing multiple keyboards, you may need multiple VMs.
174. # [02:36] <wilhelm> garykac: That will not work.
175. # [02:36] <wilhelm> simonstewart: I'm not aware of any cross-platform IME...
176. # [02:37] <wilhelm> garykac: I thought we'd have OS specific components.
177. # [02:37] <wilhelm> simonstewart: And we attempt to mask that.
178. # [02:37] <wilhelm> simonstewart: ChromeDriver, Marionette inject events right into the event queue.
179. # [02:37] <wilhelm> ... Looks like it comes from the OS.
180. # [02:38] <wilhelm> ... FFdriver and IE on Win uses Win32 APIs.
181. # [02:38] <wilhelm> ... Error-prone.
182. # [02:38] <wilhelm> ... The OS makes some assumptions about focus of windows.
183. # [02:38] <wilhelm> .... For accurate emulation, you need to go through the Win32 APIs.
184. # [02:38] <wilhelm> ... These tests take a long time to run.
185. # [02:38] <wilhelm> ... Must be able to run without focus, for parallell processing.
186. # [02:39] <wilhelm> ... spec has three audiences: People writing tests for their web apps.
187. # [02:39] <wilhelm> ... Browser vendors.
188. # [02:39] <wilhelm> ... Spec editors.
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191. # [02:40] <wilhelm> ... Low-level, cross-platform method is incredibly challenging.
192. # [02:40] <wilhelm> ... TBH, we don't ahve the expertise around this table.
193. # [02:40] <wilhelm> ... Maybe you.
194. # [02:40] <wilhelm> garykac: Injecting keyboard events into @@ is something that we do.
195. # [02:40] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Unfocused windows?
196. # [02:41] <wilhelm> garykac: Win yes, Mac no.
197. # [02:41] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Mac has a mouse window and keyboard window.
198. # [02:41] <wilhelm> garykac: I have less concern about the machine doing something else.
199. # [02:41] <wilhelm> ... Interop between browser vendors. Difficult to run tests will not be run.
200. # [02:41] <wilhelm> ... You inject cooked browser events?
201. # [02:42] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Depends on the broser implementation.
202. # [02:42] <wilhelm> ... IE: three methods. Synthetitc JS events.
203. # [02:42] <wilhelm> ... A library I wrote.
204. # [02:42] <wilhelm> ... Attempts to put raw events into the Windows message queue.
205. # [02:42] <wilhelm> ... Scan codes, et.
206. # [02:42] <wilhelm> c
207. # [02:42] <wilhelm> ...3: Use something like sendkeys.
208. # [02:43] <wilhelm> garykac: Concern: Translation from OS events...
209. # [02:43] <wilhelm> garykac: Given this sequence on Windows, all browsers should get the same.
210. # [02:43] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Out of scope?
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212. # [02:44] <wilhelm> dburns: In the way we insert trusted events into the browser, we depend on library in browser.
213. # [02:44] <wilhelm> ... Mobile, desktop.
214. # [02:44] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Mobile is maybe the best case.
215. # [02:44] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Uses accessibility API.
216. # [02:44] <wilhelm> ... Good emulation by accident.
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218. # [02:44] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Suggestions on how this can be done?
219. # [02:45] <wilhelm> simonstewart: We don't want to give the browser window OS focus.
220. # [02:45] <wilhelm> garykac: There's parts of it that can be used.
221. # [02:45] <wilhelm> garykac: Mouse will be useful.
222. # [02:45] <wilhelm> garykac: If we're not generating the keys on the OS level, that might not fit.
223. # [02:45] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Huge problem.
224. # [02:45] <wilhelm> garykac: Huge because it's lots of small things.
225. # [02:46] <wilhelm> simonstewart: And you've got at least two axes. OS, browser.
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227. # [02:46] <wilhelm> simonstewart: IME, third axis.
228. # [02:46] <wilhelm> garykac: Different keyboard layouts.
229. # [02:46] <wilhelm> simonstewart: French dvorak...
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231. # [02:46] <wilhelm> garykac: SOme keys are not exposed...
232. # [02:46] <wilhelm> garykac: Writing OS specific tests must happen for this
233. # [02:47] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Does Win32 sendkeys do what you need?
234. # [02:47] <wilhelm> garykac: We sometimes want to know what the physical key is. Need more information.
235. # [02:48] <wilhelm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
236. # [02:48] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html wilhelm
237. # [02:48] <wilhelm> simonstewart: The IME implementation we had worked on Windows and Linux.
238. # [02:49] <wilhelm> simonstewart: You could take these from the project.
239. # [02:49] <AutomatedTester> https://code.google.com/p/selenium/source/browse/#git%2Fcpp%2Fimehandler
240. # [02:49] <AutomatedTester> https://code.google.com/p/selenium/source/browse/#git%2Fcpp%2Fwebdriver-interactions
241. # [02:49] <AutomatedTester> https://code.google.com/p/selenium/source/browse/cpp/webdriver-interactions/interactions.cpp
242. # [02:50] <wilhelm> simonstewart: *explains code just posted above*
243. # [02:50] <wilhelm> simonstewart: *explains relationship between Selenium / WEbDriver*
244. # [02:51] <wilhelm> simonstewart: You can use WebDriver to get the browser to a specific palce.
245. # [02:52] <wilhelm> garykac: Can it check the OS state?
246. # [02:52] <wilhelm> simonstewart: No
247. # [02:53] <wilhelm> simonstewart: *proposes a mixture of WebDriver + native OS code*
248. # [02:53] <wilhelm> simonstewart: If this was easy, we'd have done it.
249. # [02:53] <wilhelm> garykac: I want to reuse as much as I can.
250. # [02:53] <wilhelm> garykac: Where are the live, valid sets of tests?
251. # [02:54] <wilhelm> wilhelm: web-platform-tests
252. # [02:54] <wilhelm> simonstewart: If you have suggestions for teh API, given our constraints.
253. # [02:55] <wilhelm> simonstewart: *lists currrent API*
254. # [02:55] <wilhelm> garykac: Everything else comes from that.
255. # [02:55] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Using PUA from Unicode to specifiy other characters.
256. # [02:55] <wilhelm> ... Return key, etc.
257. # [02:55] <wilhelm> ... Based on meaning.
258. # [02:55] <wilhelm> garykac: DOM3 har those based on meaning.
259. # [02:56] <wilhelm> ... UI events has keynames based on the physical key.
260. # [02:56] <wilhelm> ... This key, Q, on English keyboard, is the same no matter which keyboard layout you have.
261. # [02:56] <simonstewart> http://selenium.googlecode.com/git/docs/api/java/org/openqa/selenium/Keys.html
262. # [02:56] <wilhelm> ... If you have to give the name to a physical key, use UI events.
263. # [02:57] <wilhelm> simonstewart: *refers to the key list from the implementation*
264. # [02:57] <garykac> UI Events: http://www.w3.org/TR/uievents/
265. # [02:57] <AutomatedTester> https://code.google.com/p/selenium/wiki/JsonWireProtocol#/session/:sessionId/element/:id/value
266. # [02:58] <wilhelm> garykac: Is this all?
267. # [02:58] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Non-printable.
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269. # [02:58] <wilhelm> garykac: No location field to indicate it's from the keypad?
270. # [02:59] <wilhelm> MarcFisher: Just a string.
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272. # [02:59] <wilhelm> garykac: *ask about specific keys in the list*
273. # [02:59] <wilhelm> MarcFisher: suggestions for improving the API are welcome.
274. # [03:00] <wilhelm> garykac: We've worked on speccing the list of keys in DOM3.
275. # [03:00] * MichaelC PF will head your way, be there in 5 minutes or so
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278. # [03:00] * wilhelm MichaelC: OK, just sneak in as we finish this discussion. (c:
279. # [03:01] <garykac> DOM3 Events: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/
280. # [03:01] <simonstewart> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#key-value-tables
281. # [03:01] <garykac> Section 6.3
282. # [03:01] <wilhelm> garykac: Section 6.3
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284. # [03:01] <wilhelm> garykac: I'm going to be merging the UI events stuff into this.
285. # [03:01] <wilhelm> ... SO that there is one canonical document.
286. # [03:01] * Joins: mizuman (~mizuman@public.cloak)
287. # [03:02] <wilhelm> garykac: UI events provides more info on how awful keyboards are...
288. # [03:02] <wilhelm> ... This maps to Windows virtual keys.
289. # [03:02] <wilhelm> garykac: Assumes we have a location field.
290. # [03:02] <wilhelm> ... This is only the non-printable.
291. # [03:02] <wilhelm> garykac: Separator?
292. # [03:03] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
293. # [03:03] <wilhelm> garykac: This also includes old keys.
294. # [03:03] <wilhelm> garykac: Media keys.
295. # [03:04] <wilhelm> garykac: You may want to refer to this and say "this is where we get our values from".
296. # [03:04] <wilhelm> garykac: You may need location feels.
297. # [03:04] <wilhelm> s/feels/fields
298. # [03:05] <wilhelm> garykac: This completely ignores Android + FirefoxOS, which we also need.
299. # [03:05] <wilhelm> simonstewart: So far we haven't needed most of these keys...
300. # [03:06] <wilhelm> garykac: Thank you for the information!
301. # [03:06] <wilhelm> simonstewart: I've learned a lot about the horror that is keyboards.
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305. # [03:07] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Reviews of our sections on this would be very helpful.
306. # [03:07] * MikeSmith notes that members of the PFWG are now with us
307. # [03:08] <wilhelm> ACTION: Add scrollwheel support
308. # [03:08] * RRSAgent records action 1
309. # [03:08] <wilhelm> Topic PFWG
310. # [03:09] <wilhelm> Michael Cooper, staff contact
311. # [03:09] <wilhelm> @@, observer
312. # [03:09] <wilhelm> @@, with IBM
313. # [03:10] <wilhelm> s/Topic/Topic: PFWG
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315. # [03:10] <wilhelm> MichaelC: A number of us were here at TTWF. Some of this may be familiar.
316. # [03:10] <wilhelm> ... We want to sync the accessibility testing with other testing.
317. # [03:10] <wilhelm> ... THis is an iteration of these efforts.
318. # [03:10] <wilhelm> ... IN the past few days we've got a better understanding.
319. # [03:11] <wilhelm> ... Suggested agenda items:
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321. # [03:11] <wilhelm> ... Developing accessbility tests from the point of view of a developer who wants to ensure accessibility in the UA.
322. # [03:11] <wilhelm> ... We test tools, content.
323. # [03:12] <wilhelm> .. We talked about how WebDriver can be used to test web pages in UA to see if accessibility features work as intended.
324. # [03:12] <wilhelm> ... May depend on things from WebDriver.
325. # [03:12] <wilhelm> ... How can we use WD to test accessibility tests?
326. # [03:12] <wilhelm> ... We develop ARIA, which could be tested that way.
327. # [03:13] <wilhelm> ... Considering accessibility tests that can be done like the testharness.js, reftests...
328. # [03:13] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
329. # [03:13] <wilhelm> .. If we wish to add tests?
330. # [03:13] <wilhelm> wilhelm: tobie's department.
331. # [03:13] <wilhelm> MichaelC: Mapping accessibility APIs to testing...
332. # [03:13] <wilhelm> ... Accessibility vs DOM.
333. # [03:14] <wilhelm> Janina: The best defined are the UA interfaces to accessibility API.
334. # [03:14] <wilhelm> .. On their way to Rec.
335. # [03:14] <wilhelm> ... We're looking at that approach for basis for furhter work.
336. # [03:14] <wilhelm> MichaelC: What level of shared knowledge do we have?
337. # [03:15] <wilhelm> simonstewart: *describes the purpose and functionality of WebDriver*
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339. # [03:17] <wilhelm> @@: JS in the browser?
340. # [03:17] <wilhelm> simonstewart: No.
341. # [03:17] <wilhelm> @@: Are you using Windows automation?
342. # [03:17] <wilhelm> simonstewart: It depends.
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344. # [03:18] <wilhelm> ... We need to be able to test browsers without window having focus.
345. # [03:18] <wilhelm> ... We should be able to background the window.
346. # [03:18] <wilhelm> ... (Describes the three types of events and their implementations.)
347. # [03:20] <wilhelm> Cynthia: Assisstive technologies use OS accessibility layers to interact with f.x. UA.
348. # [03:21] <wilhelm> ... Old MS API, IBM API, newer MS Windows automation...
349. # [03:21] <wilhelm> ... Windows UI automation was designed with a couple of ideas that are different.
350. # [03:21] <wilhelm> ... To be used as a test driver in addition to accessibility.
351. # [03:21] <wilhelm> ... Combine patterns. Invoke, selection.
352. # [03:22] <wilhelm> ... "This is an invokable thing, not just a button"
353. # [03:22] <wilhelm> ... You can combine patterns.
354. # [03:23] <wilhelm> MichaelC: The accessibility APIs do similar things, but vary between OSes.
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356. # [03:23] <wilhelm> Janina: Linux accessibility layer used for testing Linux desktop.
357. # [03:23] <simonstewart> What was the name of the linux project that uses accessibility testing?
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360. # [03:24] <wilhelm> Cynthia: You're doing platform-specific work.
361. # [03:24] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Yes, but hidden behind the APIs.
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363. # [03:24] <wilhelm> Cynthia: We look at the markup in ARIA or HTML and our document, "this document should have these properties".
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366. # [03:25] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Forms of accessibiltiy testig already done with WD include: test tabindex.
367. # [03:25] <wilhelm> ... We also had element-by-ARIA.
368. # [03:26] <wilhelm> ... Could be used via XPath.
369. # [03:26] <wilhelm> Janina: Would have been useful.
370. # [03:26] <wilhelm> simonstewart: We disucussed the equivalent of a DOM in accessibility.
371. # [03:26] <wilhelm> ... Maps to DOM.
372. # [03:26] <wilhelm> Cynthia: This exists, but outside the browser.
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375. # [03:27] <wilhelm> Jason: Some UAs already have OS-level accessibility integration. Unifying would be good.
376. # [03:28] <wilhelm> ... Interested in interaction between this approach of testing with WebDriver and Indie UI.
377. # [03:28] <wilhelm> MichaelC: They are do what I mean-events.
378. # [03:29] <wilhelm> simonstewart: *describes the three audiences of WebDriver*
379. # [03:30] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
380. # [03:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
381. # [03:30] <wilhelm> simonstewart: It sounds like you're interested in the first audience, third audience.
382. # [03:30] <wilhelm> MichaelC: Third audience.
383. # [03:30] <simonstewart> (spec authors)
384. # [03:31] <wilhelm> Cynthia: Adding accessibility tests to web application tests...
385. # [03:31] <wilhelm> ... WCAG has techiniques for testing. Automation? Done manually now.
386. # [03:31] <wilhelm> Janina: Can you tab to the submit button?
387. # [03:32] <wilhelm> simonstewart: You may be able to do a lot of it already.
388. # [03:32] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Tabbing stuff should be easy.
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390. # [03:33] <wilhelm> simonstewart: WebDriver has findElementByTagName.
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392. # [03:33] <wilhelm> ... Tab, find the active element.
393. # [03:33] <wilhelm> Cynthia: img.onclick, etc. are tricky. Buttons are not.
394. # [03:34] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Finding elements with a click handler is more difficult.
395. # [03:34] <wilhelm> MarcFisher: But possible with JS.
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400. # [03:35] <wilhelm> MichaelC: Challenge with accessibility spec testing: we have to test how the spec shows up in different accessibility APIs.
401. # [03:36] <wilhelm> Cynthia: You are using some of those APIs for driving?
402. # [03:36] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Chrome and Firefox inject blessed events into their event queues.
403. # [03:36] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Nowhere near OS.
404. # [03:37] <wilhelm> simonstewart: We're trying to avoid the OS-level stuff, because the requirement of not having window focus is important.
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408. # [03:39] <wilhelm> simonstewart: QAs often don't ahve more than one machine. Must be able to test while doing other work.
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410. # [03:40] <wilhelm> ACTION: Cynthia to find the right people at MS to talk about UI automation
411. # [03:40] * RRSAgent records action 2
412. # [03:40] <wilhelm> MichaelC: I want to get to a next-steps-hase.
413. # [03:40] <wilhelm> Janina: We're closing on ARIA 1.0.
414. # [03:40] <wilhelm> ... 1.1 is interesting. Sovling new problems.
415. # [03:41] <wilhelm> simonstewart: How would you like ARIA 1.0 to be exposed?
416. # [03:41] <wilhelm> Cynthia: You're always going to be looking at the role.
417. # [03:41] <wilhelm> ... Actual attributes.
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419. # [03:42] <wilhelm> MichaelC: We're looking at the accessibility API...
420. # [03:42] <wilhelm> Cynthia: COmpare expected results with outout from OS-level API.
421. # [03:42] <wilhelm> ... Testing that the markup was mapped correctly to the API.
422. # [03:42] <wilhelm> ... Manually, using inspector.
423. # [03:43] <wilhelm> ... SOme of these tools are automatable.
424. # [03:43] <wilhelm> simonstewart: Focus of WD is automating the browser. Already a massive challenge.
425. # [03:44] <wilhelm> simonstewart: If there was some common accessibility DOM in the OS, that can be integrated with WebDriver.
426. # [03:44] <simonstewart> Not OS: browser
427. # [03:45] <simonstewart> /accessibility DOM in the OS/accessibility DOM in the browser,/
428. # [03:45] * Quits: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
429. # [03:45] * wilhelm : Thanks!
430. # [03:46] <wilhelm> MichaelC: It sounds to me that WebDriver would help us do some testing of the accessibility specs.
431. # [03:46] <wilhelm> ... BUt not a lot.
432. # [03:46] <wilhelm> ... We've mostly been avoiding those, as they are all manual.
433. # [03:46] <wilhelm> ... We can improve our test suite with automation.
434. # [03:47] <wilhelm> simonstewart: WD is a library you can use to poke the browser. You could use another library to poke the OS accessibility layer.
435. # [03:47] <wilhelm> MichaelC: More potential for accessibility testing re: WCAG.
436. # [03:48] <wilhelm> simonstewart: If there's something we can do to facilitate testing of accessibility in web applications.
437. # [03:48] <wilhelm> Cynthia: Something that comes up as a button in the accessibility API can be any element with role=button.
438. # [03:49] <wilhelm> simonstewart: It would be interesting to track progress on Accessibility DOM.
439. # [03:50] <wilhelm> ACTION: Our group to take a look at WCAG hard fails and understand them
440. # [03:50] * RRSAgent records action 3
441. # [03:50] <ArtB> RRSAgent, link?
442. # [03:50] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'link'
443. # [03:51] <wilhelm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
444. # [03:51] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html wilhelm
445. # [03:51] <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/ WCAG 2.0 Techniques
446. # [03:52] <wilhelm> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/
447. # [03:53] <simonstewart> That's a huge amount of work
448. # [03:53] <wilhelm> MichaelC: *explains how WCAG techniques are described*
449. # [03:53] <wilhelm> Cynthia: These are the most common failures.
450. # [03:54] <wilhelm> MichaelC: We should keep in touch.
451. # [03:54] <wilhelm> dburns: Probably F2F in Q1 in California.
452. # [03:55] <wilhelm> MichaelC: By then, we could have a proper agenda. This is more of an exploratory meeting.
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455. # [03:55] <wilhelm> Topic: Break
456. # [03:55] <wilhelm> We resume at 11:30.
457. # [03:56] <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
458. # [03:56] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html MichaelC
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488. # [04:29] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] zcorpan closed pull request #431: Update the VTTCue test names (master...vttcue-title) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/431
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493. # [04:32] <wilhelm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
494. # [04:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html wilhelm
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499. # [04:37] * MichaelC in case you want to track it, Cynthia´s action from before the break is recorded at https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1306 - Member-only link unfortunately, sorry
500. # [04:37] * MichaelC no need to track on your side if you don´t want to though
501. # [04:38] * dom you can even get mail notifications on it via https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1306/watchers
502. # [04:39] <simonstewart> MichaelC: thank you!
503. # [04:40] <wilhelm> Topic: Charter and plan forward
504. # [04:41] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Our charter expires at the end of the year.
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506. # [04:42] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: dburns has already posted on the list about this.
507. # [04:42] <wilhelm> dburns: What we're proposed is LC around March next year.
508. # [04:42] <wilhelm> Q1 vs Q2?
509. # [04:43] <wilhelm> simonstewart: MY suggestion was aim for Q2, with a checkpoint at the end of Q1.
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512. # [04:43] <wilhelm> simonstewart: If we give us a too tight deadline and fail to meet that, rechartering will be a pain.
513. # [04:44] <simonstewart> wilhelm: we keep on setting dates in the calendar, but first of all we need to figure out what needs to be done to get the spec and test suite to where it needs to be
514. # [04:44] <simonstewart> scribe simonstewart
515. # [04:44] <simonstewart> wilhelm: we keep on setting dates in the calendar, but first of all we need to figure out what needs to be done to get the spec and test suite to where it needs to be
516. # [04:45] <simonstewart> ... does that make sense
517. # [04:45] <simonstewart> ?
518. # [04:45] <dom> scribenick: simonstewart
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520. # [04:45] <simonstewart> MikeSmith: I don't think it makes that much difference on what we decide. We do need to demonstrate progress and milestones to aim for
521. # [04:45] <simonstewart> ... as long as we have that, we're ok
522. # [04:46] <simonstewart> plh: can go to management and say that things are moving forward, though not at LC yet
523. # [04:46] <simonstewart> ... just a mattter of convincing colleagues. Not currently getting pressure to actually getting it finished.
524. # [04:47] <simonstewart> AutomatedTester: Another nice thing is that we're further along in the implementations than we are in the spec.
525. # [04:47] <simonstewart> plh: only thing I'm worried about is people who aren't sponsored by a company being able to make meetings
526. # [04:47] <simonstewart> wilhelm: one other thing that we've discussed is scope creep. Solution proposed earlier is to move unstable pieces to a separate document
527. # [04:48] <simonstewart> plh: that's a common solution
528. # [04:48] * simonstewart I don't mind being an editor, but also a primary author is quite hard work.
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530. # [04:49] <simonstewart> AutomatedTester and simonstewart: both happy to edit two documents
531. # [04:50] <simonstewart> MikeSmith: other thing I want to ask about is extension duration. Is there an outside limit?
532. # [04:50] <simonstewart> plh: two years is a limit, but as a checkpoint
533. # [04:51] <simonstewart> MikeSmith: not planning on making any changes to the charter itself.
534. # [04:51] <simonstewart> plh: try to be realistic
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536. # [04:52] <simonstewart> simonstewart: so, milestones. Work items first
537. # [04:52] <simonstewart> MikeSmith: testing and spec work are the two pieces.
538. # [04:53] <simonstewart> simonstewart: going through the spec and identifying things to pull out into 1.1 and fill out placeholders
539. # [04:53] <simonstewart> wilhelm: also need to look at the OSS test suite for things that need to be specified
540. # [04:54] <simonstewart> ... suggests going through the OSS test and adding official tests and placeholders for the spec
541. # [04:54] <simonstewart> ... added a wiki page (webdriver/testsuite) started listing tests we don't have but should
542. # [04:54] <simonstewart> simonstewart: do we want to go through that suite now?
543. # [04:54] <simonstewart> wilhelm: split up and do in parallel
544. # [04:54] <simonstewart> ... maybe that's a day's work per chapter?
545. # [04:55] * Quits: taocai (~taocai@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
546. # [04:55] <simonstewart> MikeSmith: set some milestones
547. # [04:55] <simonstewart> wilhelm: should probably base those on labour
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549. # [04:56] <simonstewart> simonstewart suggests writing up possible milestones. MikeSmith starts writing
550. # [04:57] <simonstewart> action: Milestone 1: go through OSS test suite and identify tests to copy to official test suite.
551. # [04:57] * RRSAgent records action 4
552. # [04:57] <simonstewart> action: Milestone 2: add placeholders for areas not already specified
553. # [04:57] * RRSAgent records action 5
554. # [04:58] <simonstewart> action: identify sections in existing spec to move to 1.1
555. # [04:58] * RRSAgent records action 6
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559. # [05:00] <simonstewart> simonstewart: shall we try and identify the areas to remove now?
560. # [05:00] <simonstewart> wilhelm: ok
561. # [05:01] <AutomatedTester> scribe: AutomatedTester
562. # [05:01] <simonstewart> http://www.w3.org/TR/webdriver/
563. # [05:01] <simonstewart> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/tip/webdriver-spec.html
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566. # [05:02] <MarcFisher> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html
567. # [05:02] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: 7,4 to be removed
568. # [05:02] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: are we dropping or moving?
569. # [05:02] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: moving to 1.1
570. # [05:02] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: 11.4 reporting errors on JS errors to be moved to 1.1
571. # [05:03] <AutomatedTester> MarcFisher: and its completely empty so thats fine
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573. # [05:04] <AutomatedTester> action: David Burns, completing 17.2
574. # [05:04] * RRSAgent records action 7
575. # [05:04] * Quits: mizuman_ (~mizuman@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
576. # [05:04] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: move 17.3 to 1.1
577. # [05:04] * Joins: mizuman (~mizuman@public.cloak)
578. # [05:06] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: this is all based on the working published versions
579. # [05:07] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
580. # [05:07] <AutomatedTester> Action: David Burns upstream element screenshotting
581. # [05:07] * RRSAgent records action 8
582. # [05:07] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: missing the HTTP normalisation which is important for 1.0 and we need to put that in
583. # [05:08] <AutomatedTester> Action: simonstewart to add HTTP normalisation for the JSON Wire Protocol
584. # [05:08] * RRSAgent records action 9
585. # [05:08] <AutomatedTester> MarcFisher: logging is missing
586. # [05:08] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: I have that half written already
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590. # [05:09] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: IME? lets move that to 1.1
591. # [05:10] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: its currently unstable in all implementations
592. # [05:10] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: DOM events, UI events... do we want to work with that in 1.0 or 1.1?
593. # [05:10] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: is that important for now?
594. # [05:10] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: our keyboard mappings are how we encode them for sending them over the wire
595. # [05:11] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: our commands are simple
596. # [05:11] <AutomatedTester> Mfisher: we may need to tweak
597. # [05:11] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: at a later version we may need to add to handle more DOM Events
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601. # [05:12] <AutomatedTester> mfisher: keyup and keydown is missing?
602. # [05:12] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: its implemented in the OSS project for all browsers
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604. # [05:13] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
605. # [05:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
606. # [05:13] <AutomatedTester> mfisher: the Dart implementation may not have this information
607. # [05:14] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: are there other ommissions that we need to put in
608. # [05:14] * Quits: myakura_ (~myakura@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
609. # [05:14] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we will move authentication to 1.1
610. # [05:15] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: (explaining how authentication may work in the future)
611. # [05:17] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: Basic auth is important bug on the OSS project
612. # [05:17] <simonstewart> https://code.google.com/p/selenium/issues/detail?id=34
613. # [05:17] <AutomatedTester> (all discussing connecting to a running browser)
614. # [05:18] * Quits: minami (~minami@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
615. # [05:18] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: HTML5 offline technology, do we care ?
616. # [05:18] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: lets no worry about the offline tech
617. # [05:19] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: Geo location?
618. # [05:19] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: should we move it to 1.1 or hold up 1.0 for it?
619. # [05:19] * Quits: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
620. # [05:20] <AutomatedTester> automatedtester: lets move geolocation to 1.1
621. # [05:20] <AutomatedTester> (all agree)
622. # [05:20] <simonstewart> https://code.google.com/p/selenium/source/browse/#git%2Fjava%2Fclient%2Ftest%2Forg%2Fopenqa%2Fselenium
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625. # [05:21] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: how many unique tests in that repo?
626. # [05:21] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: 600-700
627. # [05:21] * Quits: dom (dom@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
628. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
629. # [05:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
630. # [05:23] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: checking its actually over 1000 tests
631. # [05:23] * Quits: kawada (~chatzilla@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
632. # [05:23] <simonstewart> The highly scientific mechanism for getting this number: grep -r "@Test" java/client/test/org/openqa/selenium/ | grep -v html5 | grep -v firefox | grep -v htmlunit | grep -v support| wc -l
633. # [05:24] <simonstewart> (in the root of the OSS project)
634. # [05:24] <wilhelm> http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/Test_suite
635. # [05:25] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: based on this data we can start to make realistic estimates
636. # [05:26] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: I used to do 30minutes to 1h so that is a lot of time on that alone
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638. # [05:26] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: do we have proxy configuration in the spec?
639. # [05:27] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
640. # [05:27] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we dont appear to have that
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642. # [05:28] <AutomatedTester> MarcFisher: that is a lot of tests and 30 is very conservative. We could automate this
643. # [05:28] <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester: we need to do manual checks agains the spec when converting so we can't automate it
644. # [05:28] <AutomatedTester> MarcFisher: it could still be ~300 hours
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646. # [05:29] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: lower than 10 minutes per test is day dreaming
647. # [05:29] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: do we have implicit and explicit timeouts
648. # [05:29] <AutomatedTester> MarcFisher: we already have timeouts
649. # [05:29] * Quits: kimwoonyoung (~kimwoonyoung@public.cloak) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
650. # [05:29] <simonstewart> grep -r "@Test" java/client/test/org/openqa/selenium | grep -v html5 | grep -v firefox | grep -v htmlunit | grep -v support | grep -v v1 | grep -v safari | grep -v browserlaunchers | grep -v "/rc/" | grep -v remote | grep -v IgnoreComparitorUnitTest.java | grep -v "/io/" | grep -v "/os/" | grep -v "ArchitectureTest.java" | wc -l
651. # [05:29] <simonstewart> 878 tests. Ish. To port.
652. # [05:30] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we have 878 tests according to my command line tool
653. # [05:30] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
654. # [05:30] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: who is going to review those?
655. # [05:30] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: David and Simon
656. # [05:31] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: tests are easy to move
657. # [05:31] <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester: Andreas Tolfsen has been reviewing too
658. # [05:31] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: we own that section and dont need others for review?
659. # [05:31] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: no we can do that
660. # [05:32] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: how much effort to do the prose in the spec?
661. # [05:32] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we need to visit 10.1 again and clean that up
662. # [05:32] <AutomatedTester> MarcFisher: 14 needs to be fleshed out
663. # [05:33] <AutomatedTester> MarcFisher: section 6 needs more prose
664. # [05:33] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we can move 6.6 to 1.1
665. # [05:33] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: we need to get someone to look at the webidl
666. # [05:35] * Quits: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
667. # [05:35] <simonstewart> http://www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/#dfn-dictionary
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673. # [05:36] <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester: Dictionary wasnt useful and there is an outstanding bug. I have looked at the alternatives but the don't know what is useful
674. # [05:36] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
675. # [05:36] <AutomatedTester> Action: David Burns to speak to heycam or bz about WebIDLs needed
676. # [05:36] * RRSAgent records action 10
677. # [05:37] * Quits: kennyluck (~kennyluck@public.cloak) (kennyluck)
678. # [05:37] <AutomatedTester> (discussion about thread safety)
679. # [05:38] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: for fleshing out the text would be 2-3 weeks
680. # [05:38] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: does logging and http
681. # [05:38] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: David Burns can do user inputs
682. # [05:38] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: and others can help too
683. # [05:39] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: and then a few editing passes are required
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685. # [05:39] * Quits: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
686. # [05:39] <AutomatedTester> we need to fix the WebIDL output
687. # [05:40] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: we are going to be doing snapshots regularly but we are getting away from that in other groups
688. # [05:40] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: we are going to be removing TR from robots.txt
689. # [05:41] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: to make sure implementors always find the editors draft
690. # [05:41] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: we could do this regularly
691. # [05:42] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: to get to TR we need to pubrules within W3C
692. # [05:42] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: lets worry about editors drafts for now
693. # [05:43] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: can we tell people to use the editors draft
694. # [05:43] * Quits: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
695. # [05:43] <AutomatedTester> Action: MikeSmith to put a note on the TR to tell people to use the editors draft
696. # [05:43] * RRSAgent records action 11
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699. # [05:44] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: based on this and we need to think about when we will hit LC
700. # [05:44] * Joins: kawada (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
701. # [05:44] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: we are looking at 600hrs worth of work
702. # [05:44] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: I am freeing up 1/2 a day a week
703. # [05:45] <AutomatedTester> automatedtester: I am getting more free time
704. # [05:45] <AutomatedTester> MarcFisher: I should be able to do 1/2 day a week too
705. # [05:46] <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester this is roughly 75 work days (600/8)
706. # [05:46] <AutomatedTester> ShuotaoGao: I can do that too
707. # [05:47] <AutomatedTester> MarcFisher: we can do 3/4 days a week by the sounds which is ~36 weeks
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709. # [05:48] <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: maybe we do a writing week on this
710. # [05:50] <AutomatedTester> (discussing F2F next year to get people to work on spec)
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713. # [05:50] <wilhelm> Topic: Lunch!
714. # [05:50] <wilhelm> We reconvene at 14:00.
715. # [05:50] * Joins: simonstewart (~simonstewart@public.cloak)
716. # [05:50] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
717. # [05:50] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
718. # [05:54] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
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745. # [06:32] <jgraham> So, if anyone at TPAC cares, I am about to talk about test code review and demo review tools including critic in WebApps
746. # [06:32] <jgraham> There are plenty of spaces
747. # [06:33] <darobin> ah shit, I'm in another meeting
748. # [06:33] <ArtB> (Shenzhen meeting room)
749. # [06:33] <ArtB> if you hurry, we can try to find an empty seat for you ;)
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787. # [07:04] <wilhelm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
788. # [07:04] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html wilhelm
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791. # [07:04] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: hey, do you need help from a Bugzilla dev?
792. # [07:07] <simonstewart> scribe: simonstewart
793. # [07:08] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
794. # [07:08] * simonstewart changes topic to 'The Way Forward'
795. # [07:09] <wilhelm> Topic: The Way Forward
796. # [07:09] <simonstewart> AutomatedTester: Before lunch we were talking about 36 weeks to get everything done.
797. # [07:09] <simonstewart> wilhelm: that takes us to the 22nd July
798. # [07:09] <simonstewart> MarcFisher: we could drop that down if we did more work per week
799. # [07:10] <simonstewart> AutomatedTester: That plus one week contingency. Suggests 1st August 2014 as the LC date
800. # [07:10] <simonstewart> wilhelm: suggests a full year extension to the charter
801. # [07:10] <simonstewart> AutomatedTester: Not sure how long between LC and CR, and then REC
802. # [07:11] <simonstewart> MikeSmith: LC comments period is a minimum of three weeks
803. # [07:11] <simonstewart> ... commonly extends to six weeks
804. # [07:11] <simonstewart> ... most people wait until the end of the LC comment period before submitting comments
805. # [07:12] <simonstewart> ... takes a week or so until after comments close before you normally publish another draft
806. # [07:12] <simonstewart> ... need to write up a Disposition of Comments documnet
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808. # [07:12] <simonstewart> ... minimum of a month from LC to CR.
809. # [07:13] <simonstewart> ... One thing to mention: we could skip CR so long as we were confident that we would meet our CR exit criteria (normally 2 interoperable implementations)
810. # [07:13] <simonstewart> ... (done by each statement in the spec that gives a conformance requirement)
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812. # [07:14] <simonstewart> ... Can do this if you say upfront in the LC draft to transition directly to PR
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814. # [07:15] <simonstewart> simonstewart: would we need to recharter to handle 1.1?
815. # [07:15] <simonstewart> MikeSmith: the charter doesn't limit us to only one document
816. # [07:16] <simonstewart> wilhelm: should we charter for two more years so that we can move to 1.1 after 1.0?
817. # [07:16] <simonstewart> MikeSmith: we don't need to come up with a new charter if there's a new deliverable after 1.0
818. # [07:16] <simonstewart> ... suggests chartering for two years
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820. # [07:17] <simonstewart> ... within two years we may want to recharter. Or we could declare victory and finish
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822. # [07:17] <simonstewart> ... Though I think we should keep the group open, since people will start reporting issues once they start using the spec.
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826. # [07:18] <simonstewart> ... * the story of XSLT 1.0 in browsers *
827. # [07:19] <simonstewart> wilhelm: suggests describing 1.0 as a feature set, rather than "being complete", to allow for changes
828. # [07:19] <simonstewart> MikeSmith: this gets to the difference between a living standard, or having separate levels.
829. # [07:19] <simonstewart> ... within the W3C model, levels seems like the way to go.
830. # [07:20] <simonstewart> ... So for now aim for LC in August? Build into the schedule a CR period, but can consider in August if we need to
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832. # [07:21] <simonstewart> simonstewart: Everyone agree?
833. # [07:21] <simonstewart> * everyone agrees *
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835. # [07:22] <simonstewart> action: MikeSmith: write up schedule ASAP for getting us the extension from plh.
836. # [07:22] * RRSAgent records action 12
837. # [07:23] <simonstewart> wilhelm: shall we set some tentative dates for the next f2f?
838. # [07:23] <simonstewart> simonstewart: February?
839. # [07:23] <simonstewart> MarkFisher: some time in Q1
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841. # [07:24] <simonstewart> AutomatedTester: suggests last two weeks of February.
842. # [07:24] <simonstewart> simonstewart: Last week of Feb
843. # [07:24] <simonstewart> wilhelm: week of Mon 25th Feb
844. # [07:24] <simonstewart> AutomatedTester: mozilla to host
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846. # [07:25] <simonstewart> action: AutomatedTester get agreement for Mozilla to host
847. # [07:25] * RRSAgent records action 13
848. # [07:25] <simonstewart> AutomatedTester: Need to confirm dates with MS
849. # [07:25] <simonstewart> MikeSmith: since it's a week, see if there are other people who want to meet up (webapps? components?)
850. # [07:26] <simonstewart> AutomatedTester: accessibility meeting up in that time?
851. # [07:29] <simonstewart> wilhelm: do we need a meet up in London?
852. # [07:29] <simonstewart> AutomatedTester: not a formal one, but we will meet up
853. # [07:30] <simonstewart> simonstewart: Looks like we're done for now.
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855. # [07:30] <simonstewart> RRSAgent draft minutes
856. # [07:31] <simonstewart> RRSAgent: draft minutes
857. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html simonstewart
858. # [07:31] <simonstewart> RRSAgent: bye
859. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-actions.rdf :
860. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Add scrollwheel support [1]
861. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-irc#T02-08-14
862. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cynthia to find the right people at MS to talk about UI automation [2]
863. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-irc#T02-40-05
864. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Our group to take a look at WCAG hard fails and understand them [3]
865. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-irc#T02-50-49
866. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Milestone 1: go through OSS test suite and identify tests to copy to official test suite. [4]
867. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-irc#T03-57-12
868. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Milestone 2: add placeholders for areas not already specified [5]
869. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-irc#T03-57-45
870. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: identify sections in existing spec to move to 1.1 [6]
871. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-irc#T03-58-09
872. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: David Burns, completing 17.2 [7]
873. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-irc#T04-04-27
874. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: David Burns upstream element screenshotting [8]
875. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-irc#T04-07-09
876. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: simonstewart to add HTTP normalisation for the JSON Wire Protocol [9]
877. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-irc#T04-08-04
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879. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> ACTION: David Burns to speak to heycam or bz about WebIDLs needed [10]
880. # [07:31] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-irc#T04-36-53
881. # [07:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: MikeSmith to put a note on the TR to tell people to use the editors draft [11]
882. # [07:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-irc#T04-43-34
883. # [07:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: MikeSmith: write up schedule ASAP for getting us the extension from plh. [12]
884. # [07:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-irc#T06-22-13
885. # [07:32] <RRSAgent> ACTION: AutomatedTester get agreement for Mozilla to host [13]
886. # [07:32] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-irc#T06-25-20
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888. # [07:32] <wilhelm> Formal meeting in the Browser Testing and Tools WG is now over.
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892. # [07:34] <simonstewart> Hurrah! Good work, everyone!
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907. # [07:45] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] rniwa closed pull request #387: Tests is attribute of input [type = radio] (master...submissions/albatrosary-radio) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/387
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912. # [07:51] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] rniwa closed pull request #386: Tests is attribute of input [type = checkbox] (master...submissions/albatrosary) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/386
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919. # [07:55] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] shs96c pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/2f76163584c0...216a261d1071
920. # [07:55] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 1bd5f7f michaelchensz: ecmascript test to return document title
921. # [07:55] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master d7859c5 michaelchensz: correct bug
922. # [07:55] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 216a261 Simon Stewart: Merge pull request #404 from michaelchensz/michaelsz...
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924. # [07:56] <simonstewart> If anyone's feeling keen, our PRs are all in: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues?labels=webdriver&page=1&state=open
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1024. # [09:26] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] AutomatedTester closed pull request #423: More explanation and step-by-step handholding for Python virtualenv and selenium setup (master...emalasky/webdriver-readme-details) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/423
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1030. # [09:33] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] pdeng6 closed pull request #297: Imported from Microsoft's tests for animation timing (master...submission/zqzhang/animation-timing-microsoft) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/297
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1033. # [09:35] <AutomatedTester> jgraham: does wpt-serve have no dependencies?
1034. # [09:35] <AutomatedTester> well, external dependencies not in the source?
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1037. # [09:42] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] AFBarstow opened pull request #432: README.md for Indexed Database API spec (master...AFBarstow/IndexedDB-REAME.md) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/432
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1039. # [09:45] <MikeSmith> jgraham: seen AutomatedTester question above?
1040. # [09:45] <jgraham> AutomatedTester: Only python
1041. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> jink
1042. # [09:46] <jgraham> Heh
1043. # [09:46] <MikeSmith> *jinx
1044. # [09:46] <AutomatedTester> jgraham: ok cool, I just looked at your wpt-serve again and saw you dont have requirements.txt and was just checking.
1045. # [09:46] <jgraham> It intentionally avoids non stdlib depenendencies, including mozbase (not sure what it would use mozbase for, but nevertheless)
1046. # [09:47] <AutomatedTester> I think that is the right way forward, slightly more painful to write but easier for everyone else
1047. # [09:47] <jgraham> Yes, zero-install was a goal
1048. # [09:47] <jgraham> I didn't want to have to explain virtualenv to everyone in the world
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1053. # [09:51] <AutomatedTester> plus virtualenv on windows hurts
1054. # [09:51] <AutomatedTester> a lot
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1058. # [09:54] <jgraham> AutomatedTester: So I didn't switch the webdriver/ directory yet
1059. # [09:54] <jgraham> Should probably do that
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1076. # [10:16] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] josh opened pull request #433: Add test for setting textContent of LI element (master...node-textcontent-li) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/433
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1104. # [10:41] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] josh opened pull request #434: Add initial tests for Element.innerHTML (master...node-innerhtml) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/434
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1175. # [13:19] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] hallvors pushed 1 new commit to hallvors/XHRbugFix3: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/48f7b75fc73e6dcd82ad0a4bddefc754c4d3aebe
1176. # [13:19] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/hallvors/XHRbugFix3 48f7b75 Hallvord R. M. Steen: loadened fires sync during abort(), readyState is still 4
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1201. # [14:54] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] foolip opened pull request #435: Remove broken/weird TextTrack.cues test (master...trackdefault) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/435
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The end :)