/irc-logs / w3c / #testing / 2013-11-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Nov 13 00:00:00 2013
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  149. # [04:48] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] sunling closed pull request #419: Added test for draggable attribute. (master...master) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/419
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  315. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> anybody know if zqzhang is around on IRC?
  316. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> belem?
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  318. # [08:28] <kennyluck> MikeSmith, I don't think he is on right now. Do you want me to get him on?
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  320. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: no I 'll just ping him on github
  321. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: thanks!
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  378. # [09:37] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-testing-irc
  379. # [09:37] <leif> ScribeNick: leif
  380. # [09:37] <leif> jgraham: This session is more on the nitty-gritty, unlike previous on policy etc.
  381. # [09:38] * Joins: shan (~shan@public.cloak)
  382. # [09:38] <leif> … The state of testing for those who are not aware:
  383. # [09:38] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make logs public
  384. # [09:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, Ms2ger
  385. # [09:38] * Joins: simonstewart (~simonstewart@public.cloak)
  386. # [09:38] <leif> … Tests on GitHub, accepting pull requests
  387. # [09:38] <leif> … Decent docs
  388. # [09:38] * Joins: shoko (~shoko@public.cloak)
  389. # [09:38] * simonstewart changes topic to 'Testing Tech - discussion of current and future plans;'
  390. # [09:38] <leif> …We now own t…twf.org, have docs there instead of a dozen wiki pages
  391. # [09:39] <leif> SimonSapin: Which groups use that repo?
  392. # [09:39] <leif> tobie: (lists groups)
  393. # [09:39] * leif didn't catch them all
  394. # [09:39] <leif> jgraham: all but XML-oriented groups
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  396. # [09:39] <simonstewart> Or CSS
  397. # [09:39] * Ms2ger and CSS
  398. # [09:39] <simonstewart> :)
  399. # [09:39] <leif> tobie: Hopefully soonish CSS
  400. # [09:39] * Ms2ger will not hold his breath
  401. # [09:40] <leif> … takes some time because CSS tied itself to hg and Shepherd
  402. # [09:40] <leif> … it's a bit complicated
  403. # [09:40] <leif> jgraham: As for actually running the tests…
  404. # [09:40] * Joins: kkubota2 (~kkubota2@public.cloak)
  405. # [09:40] <leif> … changes coming soon to run themmore easily
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  408. # [09:40] <leif> …a script coming soon to identify which files are tests in repo
  409. # [09:40] <tobie> q+: on running the tests using webdriver
  410. # [09:41] <leif> …and what kind of test file
  411. # [09:41] <tobie> s/q+: on running the tests using webdriver//
  412. # [09:41] * Quits: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  413. # [09:41] <leif> …Show what files do what
  414. # [09:41] * Joins: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak)
  415. # [09:41] <tobie> q+ on running the tests using webdriver
  416. # [09:42] <tobie> s/q+ on running the tests using webdriver//
  417. # [09:42] <leif> …Other change is: Previously running tests req'd Apache and PHP, not fun to get CORS tests running on w3.org
  418. # [09:42] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  419. # [09:42] <leif> …Individual contributors had to install heavyweight software
  420. # [09:42] <leif> …At Moz we didn't want PHP on every single test slave. Sysadmins would never have spoken to us again.
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  424. # [09:43] <leif> …We have a custom PYthon-based solution replicating the dynamic things from the PHP solution, but with testing in mind
  425. # [09:43] <leif> …easy to make HTTP response, but doesn't force you to stick to the standards, useful to diverge in testing
  426. # [09:43] <leif> …currently in review, about 2/3 done
  427. # [09:43] <leif> …Anyone who worked on XHR testsuite could help review
  428. # [09:43] <zcorpan> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/368
  429. # [09:43] <leif> …Should be days < weeks away
  430. # [09:44] <leif> …<< months
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  433. # [09:44] <leif> (i.e. much less than months)
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  435. # [09:44] <leif> jgraham: Still haven't mentioned running tests :)
  436. # [09:44] <leif> …ppl are working on it
  437. # [09:44] <zcorpan> also https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/364
  438. # [09:44] <leif> …Would like some discussion now on some issues
  439. # [09:44] <leif> …One is the enormous code-review backlog. Need a strategy
  440. # [09:45] <leif> …Another is working out whether we have tests for a certain thing
  441. # [09:46] * Joins: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak)
  442. # [09:46] <leif> …Very interesting for a lot of reasons. One of the long-term ways of using the testsuite is, instead of stability marker for spec or going to caniuse.com, could map tests to spec parts. Req's us to obtain data from vendors on test results.
  443. # [09:46] <leif> …Thoughts on Code review?
  444. # [09:46] <leif> tobie: Some stuff I'd like to do if I had time.
  445. # [09:46] <leif> …A system to easily run tests
  446. # [09:47] <leif> …w3c-test.org (?)
  447. # [09:47] <leif> …Run on different browsers automatically and report back to pull request
  448. # [09:47] <simonstewart> Interestingly, this is what we do with the selenium project already for our own tests.
  449. # [09:47] <leif> …Struck a deal with SalsLabs (?) that they can do that
  450. # [09:47] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  451. # [09:47] <leif> …want to do asap
  452. # [09:47] <simonstewart> s/SalsLabs/SauceLabs/
  453. # [09:48] <leif> David Burns: They don't run nightlies
  454. # [09:48] <leif> tobie: Right now just hooking the whole thing up, hopefully ask them to do nightlies later
  455. # [09:48] <leif> …don't know how feasible, but this is a first step
  456. # [09:48] <leif> jgraham: For unreviewed stuff, it's interesting. Security concerns though
  457. # [09:49] <leif> …full test run data, you really want to leave that to vendors
  458. # [09:49] <leif> …If you want your impl considered as an impl for parsing whatever, you should really be running tests.
  459. # [09:49] <leif> …Not true today, but in the long term.
  460. # [09:49] <leif> …We don't necessarily need a system for running every test every day in SauceLAbs, but these tests once is useful.
  461. # [09:49] * masatakayakura is now known as myakura
  462. # [09:50] <leif> tobie: Both use cases are valuable. Review is obvious. But also aggregate into WebPlatform.org and feed to devs.
  463. # [09:50] <leif> …Lot of value for devs.
  464. # [09:50] <leif> David Burns: "dev" means "webdev"
  465. # [09:51] <leif> jgraham: A problem with code review is that we try to do too much upfront. We should work out what fails, then come back and say that, vendor should look at the test.
  466. # [09:51] <leif> …There's a tension between getting a quality standards and quick review.
  467. # [09:51] <leif> tobie: and quantity
  468. # [09:51] <leif> jgraham: Hard work, and nobody's paid to do it
  469. # [09:52] <leif> tobie: [missed]
  470. # [09:52] <leif> …it's a bottleneck
  471. # [09:52] <leif> …I often see in CR that metadata is missing, other formalities. Could be automated.
  472. # [09:52] <leif> …Immediate comment in CR.
  473. # [09:52] <leif> (CR= code review)
  474. # [09:53] <leif> zcorpan: Trailing whitespace. Don't bother whining about it myself
  475. # [09:53] <leif> rebecca: [missed]
  476. # [09:53] <leif> zcorpan, tobie: can't solve all the problems
  477. # [09:53] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  478. # [09:53] <leif> tobie: But saves reviewers from going nuts over details. Reviewer is engaged immediately, instead of 2-6 months and then whitespace complaints. Encourages rude replies!
  479. # [09:54] <leif> zcorpan: Test writers can be encouraged to run checks before submitting
  480. # [09:54] <leif> simonstewart: Would like to edit pull requests
  481. # [09:54] <leif> (may have been a joke)
  482. # [09:55] <leif> simonstewart: I've only seen people volunteering at TTWF event, but afterwards engagement drops.
  483. # [09:55] <leif> rhauck2: Yes, a problem … Shanghai and Baidu people stayed engaged
  484. # [09:55] <leif> tobie: Want to set up assigning Pull Reqeusts to people
  485. # [09:56] <leif> … have a test coordinator for a spec
  486. # [09:56] <leif> …Some automation plus finding the right people…it's my best offer at this point.
  487. # [09:56] <leif> jgraham: I definitely agree that that's valuable
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  490. # [09:56] <leif> …GitHub's are one set of solutions, there are others
  491. # [09:56] <leif> …Lots that I could review if it wasn't hard and boring
  492. # [09:57] <leif> …checking that assertion about spec are correct etc.
  493. # [09:57] <leif> tobie: Intersection of skill sets often empty
  494. # [09:57] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  495. # [09:57] <leif> rhauck2: (?) has good policies on this
  496. # [09:57] <leif> jgraham: They have salaries
  497. # [09:58] * Quits: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  498. # [09:58] <leif> …Need someone to employ them essentially to review tests part time
  499. # [09:58] * Joins: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak)
  500. # [09:58] <leif> wilhelm: Both …and review question are about resources
  501. # [09:58] <leif> …Don't know what the right form is.
  502. # [09:58] <leif> …Can go to employers rather than guilting people
  503. # [09:59] <leif> tobie: Non-trivial
  504. # [09:59] <leif> …as seen over the past year
  505. # [09:59] <leif> jgraham: If non-trivial to the level that it won't happen, we need a different strategy
  506. # [09:59] <leif> tobie: Right. Instead of thinking in terms of "making reviews happen quickly", "if not reviewed in 2 weeks, it's out"
  507. # [10:00] <leif> …Build a toolset that makes quality possible with those constraints
  508. # [10:00] <leif> …Quality on one side, quantity on the other. Put the cursor on the right place.
  509. # [10:00] <leif> jgraham: A countdown timer incentivizes people. You might just find a issue to extend the timer
  510. # [10:00] <leif> tobie: "It's no longer my problem"
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  512. # [10:01] <leif> jgraham: This is the reason i like to track the progress of reviews. Mark files reviewed. If it always says 100 % remaing…
  513. # [10:01] <leif> rhauck2: Are there test submissions that can be special-cased? From vendors, e.g., that are scuritinized more on beforehand
  514. # [10:01] <leif> tobie: We've changed the process for this
  515. # [10:02] * Quits: MichaelC (cooper@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  516. # [10:02] <leif> David Burns: Would Chromium people be happy with Mozilla's? Being devil's advocate here.
  517. # [10:02] <leif> rhauck2: It's a compromise
  518. # [10:02] <leif> David Burns: More politics
  519. # [10:03] <leif> jgraham: … could we have magic that turns a patch into a PR
  520. # [10:03] <leif> tobie: Yeah, explicitly changed process. Two employees can write and review, as long as process is public.
  521. # [10:03] <leif> rhauck2: Not quite the same. Same company.
  522. # [10:03] <leif> … [missed]
  523. # [10:04] * Joins: kawada (~chatzilla@public.cloak)
  524. # [10:04] <leif> …Can we special case certain things, like working together on Flexbox suite?
  525. # [10:04] <leif> David: I personally don't see issues
  526. # [10:04] <leif> jgraham: e.g. if one company has completely wrong model of a spec
  527. # [10:04] <leif> … We would have accepted wrong specs
  528. # [10:04] <leif> tobie: Not politics, mistakes
  529. # [10:04] <leif> jgraham: Also can't prevent it completely
  530. # [10:05] <leif> …There are issues, but might be worth it, otherwise we won't accept anything. A vendor could potentially submit 1000 tests
  531. # [10:05] <leif> …Could have to wait a while
  532. # [10:05] <leif> zcorpan: I noticed :)
  533. # [10:05] * Quits: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  534. # [10:05] <leif> tobie: Could be more valuable to just have it public and accessible. If it has a problem, just take it out!
  535. # [10:06] <leif> jgraham: Yeah. If we're happy to automatically forward tests, makes it easier to work with the repo
  536. # [10:06] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak)
  537. # [10:06] <leif> Burns: If it's internal to Mozilla, should it be public to all?
  538. # [10:06] * Ms2ger eh?
  539. # [10:06] <leif> rhauck2: Good question. Would be great if not too much trouble
  540. # [10:07] <leif> jgraham: …
  541. # [10:07] <leif> tobie: Two different things. One is acceptable, CR was in the open, you can track it, valuable info. Doesn't mean we shouldn't special-case tests coming from trusted people or orgs.
  542. # [10:07] <leif> …Maybe we shouldn't, but keep in mind that they're different
  543. # [10:07] <leif> …No-one questions open reviews
  544. # [10:08] <leif> Burns: Review doesn't have to be on GitHub.
  545. # [10:08] <leif> …Keep wording fluffy
  546. # [10:08] <leif> …If a vendor doesn't already have an open process, have to submit PR.
  547. # [10:08] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, make minutes
  548. # [10:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-testing-minutes.html Ms2ger
  549. # [10:08] <leif> jgraham: …
  550. # [10:09] <leif> tobie: The policy says that same company can approve PR if review in the open
  551. # [10:09] <leif> jgraham: Review in the open could be just look at internal bug tracker and marking reviewed.
  552. # [10:09] <leif> Burns: …
  553. # [10:09] <leif> tobie: You want a paper trail
  554. # [10:09] <leif> ?
  555. # [10:10] <leif> rhauck2: Private reviews doesn't work very well
  556. # [10:10] <leif> tobie: Yeah, no need to discuss it
  557. # [10:10] <Ms2ger> s/PYthon/Python/
  558. # [10:10] <leif> …One thing is if Microsoft brings in 1000 tests, and someone else in MS OKs
  559. # [10:11] <leif> …Is the use-case MS and Opera? How does Opera work re. Blink?
  560. # [10:11] <leif> zcorpan: Going forward Opera uses Chromium testing infra, not old Opera infra.
  561. # [10:11] <leif> lmcliste_: Do you have tests upstream of Chromium?
  562. # [10:12] <leif> jgraham: Q is, if there was an Opera-developed feature, web-interacting and needing tests, and you submitted tests, would it be an open patch or reviewed behind closed doors?
  563. # [10:12] <leif> zcorpan: Not sure how it works right now?
  564. # [10:12] <leif> s/?/.
  565. # [10:12] <leif> …the only changes were made by philipj
  566. # [10:12] <leif> …I reviewed them in the open using Critic
  567. # [10:13] <leif> jgraham: My feeling is that Opera is not the problem case here
  568. # [10:13] <leif> tobie: How do Microsoft contribs usually work? My impression is that they are bulks coming in from time to time.
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  570. # [10:13] <leif> … Maybe better to decide that they need review from someone else, but that someone can communicate with them to ask how much internal review was done etc.
  571. # [10:14] <leif> Burns: TBH, better if merge was instantaneous. Paper trail is the valuable thing.
  572. # [10:14] <leif> jgraham: From vendors, we're willing to have forgiveness, not permission
  573. # [10:14] <leif> …and if we find out a lot of crap tests have been coming, we want review from other vendor in the future.
  574. # [10:14] <leif> tobie: That's exactly my intention
  575. # [10:15] <leif> …We're all trying to do the right thing. If ppl behave like idiots, we have to deal with that
  576. # [10:15] <leif> …This a minor policy question when problems arise.
  577. # [10:15] <leif> …Don't mean to pick on MS, but I mean closed impls.
  578. # [10:16] <leif> …Can we make a decision on this now?
  579. # [10:16] <leif> jgraham: Want to ask ML, might be dissent.
  580. # [10:16] <leif> zcorpan: I don't mind blessing vendor tests, but I'd like some time window for review.
  581. # [10:16] <leif> …In case people do want to review and they find problems.
  582. # [10:16] <leif> …At least some way of identifying recently merged, unreviewed tests
  583. # [10:17] <leif> …If they're just merged, I wouldn't normally look at them.
  584. # [10:17] <leif> tobie: At this point, want to move to ML. We've nailed down problem, just need to make a decision.
  585. # [10:17] <leif> action jgraham to ask mailing list
  586. # [10:18] <leif> rhauck2: When you migrated to GitHub, did you …
  587. # [10:18] <leif> jgraham: We moved everything that was obvious where to move
  588. # [10:18] <leif> …some had a different hierarchy, didn't know how to reorg
  589. # [10:19] <leif> …1000s of tests
  590. # [10:19] * Joins: yuanyan (~yuanyan@public.cloak)
  591. # [10:19] * kennyluck is now known as kennyluck_
  592. # [10:19] <leif> …'old' directory not reviewed
  593. # [10:19] * kennyluck_ is now known as kennyluck
  594. # [10:19] <leif> ???: Some tests contain errors, that we found on Saturday. AT some point someone needs to review
  595. # [10:19] <leif> rhauck2: Can we run them and use them?
  596. # [10:19] <leif> jgraham: yes
  597. # [10:20] <leif> …Now that I can run tests in Gecko automatically (on the python server branch) I fixed a lot of broken tests
  598. # [10:20] <leif> …Broken tests become very obvious
  599. # [10:20] <leif> tobie: You're bringing that up because of worry about state of CSS testsuite
  600. # [10:21] <leif> …I wouldn't worry too much, it's a fact of life. Start running on WebDriver, SauceLabs. You'll quickly see what's going on. If something works on 4 browsers, it's probably good, if fails everywhere, probably a broken test
  601. # [10:21] <leif> rhauck2: Right. We're going to refactor the dir strucuture
  602. # [10:22] <leif> …krit and others are writing scripts that assume a structure
  603. # [10:22] <leif> …How do we address this
  604. # [10:22] <leif> tobie: This gets addressed by running them
  605. # [10:22] <leif> rhauck2: Running them all over the place
  606. # [10:22] <leif> tobie: This is why I push for time and money for doing this.
  607. # [10:22] <leif> …SauceLabs runs on 10s of combos of OS and browsers
  608. # [10:23] <leif> jgraham: Obviously need to take the effort. If you're a vendor and see failures, you need to look at them because they might be impl or spec bugs. If you're not looking at fails, you're not getting value out of testsuite.
  609. # [10:23] <leif> …It's worth always running tests, even if failing.
  610. # [10:24] <leif> rhauck2: FAiling tests are a good things to me.
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  612. # [10:24] <leif> tobie: Running the tests and analyzing the results are two different steps
  613. # [10:24] <leif> rhauck2: …
  614. # [10:24] <leif> tobie: Try to enforce using short names
  615. # [10:24] <leif> s/try/trying
  616. # [10:24] <Ms2ger> Short names?
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  618. # [10:24] <leif> jgraham: That's what we wanted to discuss about CR
  619. # [10:25] <leif> …Also want to discuss coverage, but worried tobie will kill himself
  620. # [10:25] <leif> tobie: No :)
  621. # [10:25] <leif> …Spec coverage, usually it's easier to measure that code has coverage rather than specs
  622. # [10:26] <leif> …Specs are harder because two stakeholders with diff. requirements and interests
  623. # [10:27] <leif> …Some are interested in broad but shallow want to parse the spec for normative requirements, specs and algorithms, webidl, propdefs, assume you need a certain number of tests for each
  624. # [10:27] <leif> …Not a fantastic solution, but gives you a good idea of what you've tested and not
  625. # [10:27] <leif> …estimate fairly precisely the engineering time needed
  626. # [10:27] <leif> …some data points show that these estimates are rather solid
  627. # [10:27] * Quits: ken (~ken@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  628. # [10:28] <leif> …The other is for robustness and interop, you wanted to test known-brittle areas, know-non-interoperable
  629. # [10:28] * Joins: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak)
  630. # [10:28] <leif> …We don't have good solutions to measure coverage for this. jgraham has some strategies
  631. # [10:28] * Quits: cwdoh (~cwdoh@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  632. # [10:29] <leif> jgraham: I have two interests: one a bit like what you talked about as coarse-grained. Eventually we have a spec and we can believe we don't have major interop problems.
  633. # [10:29] <leif> …reasonable number of tests given a spec.
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  636. # [10:29] <leif> …not perfect, obvs.
  637. # [10:29] * Quits: yuanyan (~yuanyan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  638. # [10:29] <leif> …The other is working out what you've missed. Hard to do: combos of features (web sockets and workers) rarely obvious…
  639. # [10:30] <leif> rhauck2: ? was perplexed for the same reason
  640. # [10:30] <leif> jgraham: That's just hard, and requires afaict people who know that there are interactions
  641. # [10:30] <lmcliste_> s/?/Mihai Balan/
  642. # [10:30] <leif> …One thing that might work is look at ? data from vendors
  643. # [10:30] <leif> …You have 80 % of what we need
  644. # [10:31] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@public.cloak) ("is sleepy")
  645. # [10:31] <leif> …Would be nice if for specific specs we could say what is covered.
  646. # [10:31] <leif> …"We need worker tests"
  647. # [10:31] <rhauck2> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2013Nov/0000.html
  648. # [10:31] <leif> …want to look at it in the feature. Looked at it for an afternoon, clearly non-trivial
  649. # [10:31] <leif> …(e.g. killing browser all the time loses data)
  650. # [10:32] <leif> tobie: Points at where complexity of impl is
  651. # [10:32] <leif> …Gives the big picture
  652. # [10:32] <leif> …about codebase
  653. # [10:32] <leif> jgraham: Points out places most likely to be brittle
  654. # [10:32] <leif> …no good solutions atm, out of time
  655. # [10:32] <leif> …anyone else want to say something briefly?
  656. # [10:33] * Quits: ijongcheol (~ijongcheol@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  657. # [10:33] <leif> ???: Would be useful to document the state of discussion
  658. # [10:33] * Quits: shan (~shan@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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  660. # [10:33] <leif> …coverage analysis etc.
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  663. # [10:34] <leif> tobie: The tool you saw in the previous meeting [at TPAC plenary], I'm planning to release probably in the next week the coverage tool that makes estimates for effort and cost
  664. # [10:34] <leif> … [missed] ttwf….org/coverage
  665. # [10:34] <leif> …some flaws, stale data, only shallow coverage
  666. # [10:34] <leif> …but will at least be public.
  667. # [10:34] <leif> …if somebody doesn't want me to do that, stop me now!
  668. # [10:35] * odinho catching up
  669. # [10:35] <leif> Meeting closed.
  670. # [10:35] <leif> RRSAgent, make minutes
  671. # [10:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/13-testing-minutes.html leif
  672. # [10:35] * odinho lol well. Almost made it :P
  673. # [10:35] <leif> RRSAgent, excuse us
  674. # [10:35] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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  688. # [10:39] <leif> odinho: Don't worry, you were only actioned to review 1000 Microsoft tests
  689. # [10:39] <odinho> Oh, okay. Goodie ;-)
  690. # [10:40] <odinho> I'll get started after lunch.
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  696. # [10:41] <odinho> We really should have some FLAG solution for the tests. COVERAGE_HAS_COMMON_CASE_TEST COVERAGE_HAS_TESTS_FOR_ALL_PARAGRAPHS COVERAGE_HAS_TESTS_FOR_ALL_ASSERTIONS etc
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  699. # [10:42] <odinho> Or something similar. -- At least, -- there's different levels of coverage. And having some way to show that would be ace :)
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  730. # [10:57] <Ms2ger> (That was a short meeting)
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  740. # [11:07] <leif> Some half-assed notes from the earlier session:
  741. # [11:07] <leif> Adobe has made a big effort organizing big events. While this has been great for raising awareness, it doesn't necessarily scale by itself. Want to encourage more local meetups. Other ways to scale: integrate tests in Blink and other UAs; encourage crowdsourcing through better community web site.
  742. # [11:08] <leif> Expertise an issue, should engage JS toolkit devs.
  743. # [11:08] <leif> Broad vs. deep coverage: many tests from outsiders to test coverage of assertions in spec vs. thorough verification of a problematic area.
  744. # [11:08] <leif> There's a big problem that tests don't get reviewed, some have been sitting for a year.
  745. # [11:09] <leif> James Graham explains how vendors such as Mozilla can't import W3C tests into an "All tests muss pass" culture.
  746. # [11:09] <leif> s/???/Brian Sullivan/
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  749. # [11:11] <leif> Ms2ger: Yeah, short because it was a time-boxed TPAC breakout session…and because there was another testing session just before :)
  750. # [11:13] <odinho> :)
  751. # [11:13] <odinho> Mozilla should maybe get one more testing system then.
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  759. # [11:19] <Ms2ger> odinho, more? :(
  760. # [11:19] <odinho> Ms2ger: Obviously you're all tests muss pass culture is not working. :)
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  762. # [11:20] <Ms2ger> *your
  763. # [11:20] <odinho> for these tests.
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  765. # [11:20] <odinho> Yes, I never do that mistake. Except just now :S
  766. # [11:20] <Ms2ger> But yes, that's not so big of an issue
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  768. # [11:20] <Ms2ger> Just put the list of expected failures somewhere
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  794. # [11:57] <jgraham> Rightm I don't think the minutes exactly capture the point, which is just that you have to record the expected fails, which is not trvivial
  795. # [11:58] <jgraham> *trivial
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The end :)