/irc-logs / w3c / #testing / 2014-01-15 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jan 15 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #testing
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  29. # [07:40] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] deniak pushed 1 new commit to deniak/ms-video: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/f31e3c22abf988a120edd04de6b0ec82309643d2
  30. # [07:40] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/deniak/ms-video f31e3c2 Denis Ah-Kang: rm useless tests
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  41. # [09:34] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger opened pull request #514: Rewrite video_{009,010}.htm as reftests. (master...Update-video-009) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/514
  42. # [09:34] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  43. # [09:34] <Ms2ger> denis, r? :)
  44. # [09:35] <denis> sure Ms2ger
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  51. # [10:19] <Ms2ger> denis, I'll try to finish the review later today
  52. # [10:20] <denis> thanks ms2ger, I'm finishing to fix some tests and I'll review your PR
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  54. # [10:41] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] deniak pushed 1 new commit to deniak/opera-old-tests: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/9b971669d7edd34f182c1c352e324a0b3e4ba24b
  55. # [10:41] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/deniak/opera-old-tests 9b97166 Denis Ah-Kang: rebase over pythonication
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  77. # [12:16] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger closed pull request #504: Update dom/interfaces.html to spec. (master...dom-interfaces) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/504
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  80. # [12:16] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/f7abd19d5864...31c43c983c11
  81. # [12:16] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 722829d Ms2ger: Update dom/interfaces.html to spec.
  82. # [12:16] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 759db76 Ms2ger: Update the default value of the importNode argument.
  83. # [12:16] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 31c43c9 Ms2ger: Merge pull request #504 from Ms2ger/dom-interfaces...
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  86. # [12:18] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger closed pull request #514: Rewrite video_{009,010}.htm as reftests. (master...Update-video-009) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/514
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  89. # [12:18] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/31c43c983c11...dcf579a09949
  90. # [12:18] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master f1f8ba5 Ms2ger: Rewrite video_{009,010}.htm as reftests....
  91. # [12:18] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 2b8e5c4 Ms2ger: Don't include media.js where that is not necessary.
  92. # [12:18] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master dcf579a Ms2ger: Merge pull request #514 from Ms2ger/Update-video-009...
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  95. # [12:27] <Ms2ger> denis, hmm, why did video_020 go away?
  96. # [12:28] <denis> oh, I renamed it video_020-manual
  97. # [12:29] <denis> I think it could be a ref test but just need the screenshot from the video
  98. # [12:30] <Ms2ger> No, video_020-manual is the old video_028
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  100. # [12:34] <denis> ah right
  101. # [12:35] <denis> but paused is already covered by "paused_false_during_play.html" and "paused_true_during_pause.html"
  102. # [12:37] <Ms2ger> Good point
  103. # [12:41] <Ms2ger> How about _022?
  104. # [12:45] <denis> covered by preload_reflects_none_autoplay.html
  105. # [12:46] <Ms2ger> That doesn't test that the event is fired, though, only what preload returns
  106. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I thought with Philip's rewrite script URLs like http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/#dom-video-poster should magically redirect to the right page. I thought they used to at least.
  107. # [12:47] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, never got that to work there, only on w.o/html
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  109. # [12:48] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] deniak pushed 1 new commit to deniak/ms-video: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/94ade8dd90f08791587bed4f3b30b125a2fd86af
  110. # [12:48] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/deniak/ms-video 94ade8d Denis Ah-Kang: remove timeouts + some test refactoring
  111. # [12:48] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  112. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> ah ok
  113. # [12:50] <denis> Ms2ger, right
  114. # [12:50] <denis> 022 should probably be restored
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  117. # [12:53] <Ms2ger> denis, you work too fast... I submit my review and it's already out-of-date :)
  118. # [12:55] <denis> sorry :)
  119. # [12:55] <Ms2ger> I'm really glad you're doing this, btw :)
  120. # [12:55] <denis> I so want to close these tests for good
  121. # [12:56] <denis> well, glad we are doing this together
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  123. # [13:01] <Ms2ger> denis, okay, just put 022 back and were're done here :)
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  125. # [13:03] <denis> ok Ms2ger, I'll do that right now
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  127. # [13:06] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] deniak pushed 1 new commit to deniak/ms-video: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/e98df63d2eb5cc2cde6d05d8b13c2b83ef6fa00c
  128. # [13:06] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/deniak/ms-video e98df63 Denis Ah-Kang: restore test video_022.htm
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  133. # [13:18] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] deniak pushed 1 new commit to deniak/ms-video: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/bdf904aff23d90df0d4d5c54054af09055fe4d02
  134. # [13:18] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/deniak/ms-video bdf904a Denis Ah-Kang: remove useless code
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  138. # [13:56] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger force-pushed deniak/ms-video from bdf904a to 10f7d31: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commits/deniak/ms-video
  139. # [13:56] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/deniak/ms-video 10f7d31 Denis Ah-Kang: Update and cleanup Microsoft's video tests.
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  142. # [13:57] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger closed pull request #497: MS tests on video element (master...deniak/ms-video) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/497
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  145. # [13:57] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/260ccf5f0b012e95c29f53a196719211f99973fc
  146. # [13:57] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 260ccf5 Ms2ger: Merge pull request #497 from w3c/deniak/ms-video...
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  149. # [13:58] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger deleted deniak/ms-video at 10f7d31: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/10f7d31
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  153. # [14:18] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, ping
  154. # [14:19] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: pong
  155. # [14:19] <Ms2ger> Do you know if the dnd tests had any kind of review at Opera?
  156. # [14:19] <jgraham> wilhelm: ^
  157. # [14:20] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i'm out of chocolate
  158. # [14:20] <wilhelm> Ms2ger: No, but Giorgi and/or Tarquin will know.
  159. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> Did you like it?
  160. # [14:20] <zcorpan> yes!
  161. # [14:20] * wilhelm is London-bound, and may crash the Mozilla office on Friday.
  162. # [14:21] <zcorpan> but it was a bad idea to do that, now i will refuse to answer your questions until i receive more
  163. # [14:21] <Ms2ger> Good to know :)
  164. # [14:21] * Ms2ger unrelatedly wonders if Opera people will go to fosdem now they work on open source
  165. # [14:22] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: i reviewed them for being OK to release but not for being correct per spec
  166. # [14:23] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, but would you expect them to be roughly accurate?
  167. # [14:23] <zcorpan> yes
  168. # [14:24] <Ms2ger> Do you consider it likely that someone will step up to do a careful review this year?
  169. # [14:25] <zcorpan> no
  170. # [14:25] <Ms2ger> I say we merge, then
  171. # [14:26] <zcorpan> sounds good to me
  172. # [14:26] <denis> fwiw, giorgi said he has some platform specific scripts to automate these tests
  173. # [14:26] <denis> is worth trying to integrate these?
  174. # [14:26] <zcorpan> that's a separate PR
  175. # [14:26] <Ms2ger> Afaict, those are in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/433
  176. # [14:27] <jgraham> Yeah, so I am not enthusistic about adding those
  177. # [14:28] <Ms2ger> Okay, do you have alternatives? :)
  178. # [14:31] <jgraham> I think my alternative is to not add a whole load of platform-specific perl scripts
  179. # [14:31] <Ms2ger> So just keep the manual tests?
  180. # [14:31] <Ms2ger> I'm all for webdrivering this, but I don't see it happen
  181. # [14:31] <jgraham> For all the stuff that can be done in-browser we might be able to move to webdriver
  182. # [14:32] <jgraham> For the stuff that requires interaction with the underlying OS manual tests might be good enough
  183. # [14:34] <Ms2ger> Just landing the manual tests wfm too
  184. # [14:35] <denis> does anyone know if web driver implements html5 dnd correcly today?
  185. # [14:35] * denis sees https://code.google.com/p/selenium/issues/detail?id=3604
  186. # [14:36] <darobin> landing the manual test can (and should) happen independently of the potential automation
  187. # [14:36] <darobin> maybe AutomatedTester knows the answer to denis's question?
  188. # [14:36] <denis> I did some experiments and webdriver was not releasing the object being dragged
  189. # [14:37] <darobin> maybe AutomatedTester can actually fix the bug :)
  190. # [14:37] <denis> I've actually been in touch with him :)
  191. # [14:40] <Ms2ger> So any objections to git mv old-tests/submission/Opera/dnd/ html/editing/dnd/?
  192. # [14:40] <darobin> I'm all for it — is that the version that denis has been hacking on?
  193. # [14:41] <jgraham> Ms2ger: That sounds fine to me.
  194. # [14:41] <denis> no darobin, my experiments were not successful
  195. # [14:41] <jgraham> I don't think having stuff in old-tests helps anyone
  196. # [14:41] <Ms2ger> Right
  197. # [14:41] <darobin> denis: ah, shame!
  198. # [14:41] <darobin> Ms2ger: yeah, go ahead and merge
  199. # [14:42] <denis> :)
  200. # [14:42] <Ms2ger> And wontfix https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/433?
  201. # [14:42] <darobin> no, having stuff in old-tests doesn't help anyone, but there's crap in there that we're better off dropping instead of moving
  202. # [14:43] <Ms2ger> darobin, no kidding
  203. # [14:43] <ato> denis: I don't think it emulates all the correct JS events.
  204. # [14:43] <jgraham> I don't think DnD falls into that category
  205. # [14:43] <jgraham> Or IndexedDB
  206. # [14:44] <denis> ato, that may be the issue...
  207. # [14:45] <ato> If you force the browser to use native events I suspect it could work, but it seems like a bug in Selenium.
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  209. # [14:46] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger created opera/dnd (+1 new commit): https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/e19f52cebf2f
  210. # [14:46] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/opera/dnd e19f52c Ms2ger: Move Opera's DND tests into place.
  211. # [14:46] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  212. # [14:47] <darobin> jgraham: in general Opera's tests don't fall in that category
  213. # [14:50] <jgraham> odinho: Did you restore the DnD tests?
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  216. # [14:54] <AutomatedTester> denis: its on my very long todo :/
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  218. # [14:58] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith yt?
  219. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> yeah
  220. # [14:59] <AutomatedTester> so I have been thinking about WebDriver L2 and from discussions L2 is going to be new functionality on top of L1
  221. # [15:00] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: so its going to be a delta of l1
  222. # [15:01] <AutomatedTester> there are going to be new interfaces/methods
  223. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> AutomatedTester: sounds reasonable
  224. # [15:01] <Ms2ger> Boo, delta specs
  225. # [15:01] * darobin takes dnd, drags it all the way up AutomatedTester's todo and drops it there
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  227. # [15:02] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger opened pull request #515: Move Opera's DND tests into place. (master...opera/dnd) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/515
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  230. # [15:02] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/c6eca075d123d41de12192ac1b0977439577249c
  231. # [15:02] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master c6eca07 Ms2ger: Merge pull request #515 from w3c/opera/dnd...
  232. # [15:02] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  233. # [15:02] <jgraham> AutomatedTester: Why would you do that?
  234. # [15:02] <AutomatedTester> add new features?
  235. # [15:02] <jgraham> Why not just keep adding text to the same document?
  236. # [15:03] <AutomatedTester> documents
  237. # [15:03] <denis> Ms2ger++
  238. # [15:03] <AutomatedTester> each major section is in its document
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  240. # [15:03] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger closed pull request #441: Submission/opera/dnd automation (master...submission/Opera/dnd-automation) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/441
  241. # [15:03] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  242. # [15:04] <AutomatedTester> ok, open to suggestions then
  243. # [15:04] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  244. # [15:04] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger deleted opera/dnd at e19f52c: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/e19f52c
  245. # [15:04] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  246. # [15:04] <AutomatedTester> l1 and l2 will be done in parallel
  247. # [15:04] <jgraham> Uh, OK. That sounds needlessy complicated
  248. # [15:04] <AutomatedTester> since l1 isnt complete
  249. # [15:04] <jgraham> Oh that never works
  250. # [15:04] <jgraham> I have seen that suggested several times and I have never seen it actually succeed
  251. # [15:05] <AutomatedTester> well people are giving items for l2 now that arent going into l1
  252. # [15:05] <Ms2ger> Why not?
  253. # [15:05] <jgraham> I suggest a single document with annotations
  254. # [15:05] <AutomatedTester> Ms2ger: since vendors want it at Rec to do anything
  255. # [15:06] <Ms2ger> Pah
  256. # [15:06] <jgraham> In that case finish L1 and don't do any work on L2 until you have
  257. # [15:06] <AutomatedTester> l2 has features that aren't in a browser all the time
  258. # [15:06] <AutomatedTester> but are webdriver features
  259. # [15:06] <Ms2ger> jgraham, do we keep those: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/branches?merged=1 ?
  260. # [15:07] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I don't feel like we have to
  261. # [15:07] <jgraham> I don't really mind either way
  262. # [15:07] <Ms2ger> Ok
  263. # [15:07] <odinho> jgraham: Restore DnD?
  264. # [15:08] <Ms2ger> (One more PR down)
  265. # [15:08] <jgraham> odinho: By DnD I mean IndexedDB
  266. # [15:08] <odinho> jgraham: Seems like Ms2ger did it there?
  267. # [15:08] <jgraham> It has many of the same letters
  268. # [15:08] <odinho> ...
  269. # [15:08] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: don't worry about it for now then
  270. # [15:09] <odinho> jgraham: No, I did not yet. Though I didn't forget :) Have so many fires to extinguish.
  271. # [15:09] <Ms2ger> (So in the past month, we've had 17 PRs submitted and 28 merged)
  272. # [15:09] <jgraham> AutomatedTester: Even when people say that they require something to be in Rec. it is surprisingly difficult to make the work actually happen. People are much better at having requirements than solving problems
  273. # [15:11] <jgraham> So usually you end up with L1 being a fiction and L2 diverging from L1, and then people wanting to backport from L2 to L1, and that adding extra work, until you try to give up on L1 entirely, at which point someone ways "but Rec.!", and still doesn't actually do any work
  274. # [15:11] <jgraham> Story of XHR that is
  275. # [15:12] <AutomatedTester> l2 diverging from l1 will break everything. All we have done is paired it down to the necessary building blocks
  276. # [15:12] <AutomatedTester> so we can avoid these things
  277. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: fixed the stuff I boogered up and http://w3c-test.org/web-platform-tests/master/ should be up to date again
  278. # [15:12] <Ms2ger> Thank you!
  279. # [15:13] <jgraham> AutomatedTester: Give me a minute whilst I put my skeptical hat on
  280. # [15:13] <jgraham> It's a big hat so I need a little time
  281. # [15:14] <AutomatedTester> how many implementations do we need to make rec?
  282. # [15:14] <AutomatedTester> 2?
  283. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> None, in practice
  284. # [15:14] <AutomatedTester> so I could push for rec now?
  285. # [15:14] <Ms2ger> Yes, sure
  286. # [15:15] <jgraham> In theory you need to demonstrate interop
  287. # [15:15] <darobin> AutomatedTester: yes, you can push for Rec now
  288. # [15:15] <jgraham> Which is often taken to mean "two implementations and a testsuite"
  289. # [15:16] <darobin> AutomatedTester: it depends completely on what you plan to use Rec for
  290. # [15:16] <jgraham> But iirc the process document is quite vauge
  291. # [15:16] <darobin> AutomatedTester: if you need Rec for some kind of marketing push, then you probably only want to reach Rec when you have a product
  292. # [15:16] <AutomatedTester> darobin: get MS employees to tell some VP it needs to be done yesterday
  293. # [15:16] <darobin> AutomatedTester: but in practice, you can just take a snapshot and go to Rec with it every year
  294. # [15:16] <darobin> that's what I'd do
  295. # [15:16] <Ms2ger> Ah, our good friends at MS
  296. # [15:16] <jgraham> You probably just need to convice TimBL
  297. # [15:16] <AutomatedTester> we have a product, webdriver is working backwards from you're average spec
  298. # [15:16] <jgraham> So maybe if you take him out drinking?
  299. # [15:17] <AutomatedTester> we are specing an exisiting product
  300. # [15:17] <darobin> s/TimBL/the Director/ (who is not always TimBL on such decisions)
  301. # [15:17] * AutomatedTester can do that
  302. # [15:17] <jgraham> AutomatedTester: That sounds like most specs
  303. # [15:17] <Ms2ger> I wonder if anyone could convince them to do any work on their crappy tests
  304. # [15:17] <darobin> AutomatedTester: I know that, and it's not uncommon
  305. # [15:17] <darobin> AutomatedTester: you have implementations, right? do you have tests?
  306. # [15:17] <AutomatedTester> yes and yes
  307. # [15:17] <Ms2ger> Go for it
  308. # [15:17] <darobin> well ship the fuck out of it
  309. # [15:17] <ato> Well.
  310. # [15:18] <darobin> AutomatedTester: are there huge parts of the text that you really don't like? some glaring issues?
  311. # [15:18] <AutomatedTester> the quality of either is suspect but we have both
  312. # [15:18] <darobin> AutomatedTester: the sooner the you test the sooner it goes into RF protection
  313. # [15:18] <ato> The tests are very bad and not useful. But I'm not sure anyone will notice.
  314. # [15:18] <Ms2ger> Are most tests passed by at least half an impl?
  315. # [15:18] <Ms2ger> ato, how do you think HTML5 is going to rec?
  316. # [15:18] <darobin> ato: just don't say that in a logged channel please :)
  317. # [15:18] <AutomatedTester> darobin: RF protection?
  318. # [15:19] <jgraham> I was going to say, judging purely by volume of code I wonder how comprehensive that testsuite is
  319. # [15:19] <darobin> HTML5 is going to Rec because it's dangerous and stupid to keep it out of RF protection, not because it's done :)
  320. # [15:19] <darobin> AutomatedTester: Royalty-Free
  321. # [15:19] <jgraham> AutomatedTester: darobin will build a big faraday cage
  322. # [15:19] <Ms2ger> darobin, don't say that in a logged channel either? Not that anybody cares
  323. # [15:19] <AutomatedTester> I thought FPWD gave you RF protection
  324. # [15:19] <AutomatedTester> or is it just patent protection
  325. # [15:19] <darobin> AutomatedTester: before Rec you still have a patent problem, after not
  326. # [15:19] <jgraham> AutomatedTester: FPWD is where disclosure happens
  327. # [15:20] <darobin> AutomatedTester: no, FPWD triggers the first exclusion
  328. # [15:20] <jgraham> But technically the patent policy only kicks in at Rec.
  329. # [15:20] <darobin> jgraham: no, not disclosure, exclusion
  330. # [15:20] <jgraham> Although
  331. # [15:20] <AutomatedTester> and disclosure from WG members only right?
  332. # [15:20] <darobin> everyone stop saying disclosure :)
  333. # [15:20] <AutomatedTester> disclosure
  334. # [15:20] <jgraham> darobin: Sorry :)
  335. # [15:20] <darobin> the disclosure obligation is continuous: if you know of essential IP impinging on a spec, you must disclose
  336. # [15:21] <AutomatedTester> iff you are WG member
  337. # [15:21] <Ms2ger> (Yay, twenty minutes time wasted by five people, thank you Process)
  338. # [15:21] <darobin> the *exclusion* periods are the moments when group participants can say that they have patents which they don't want to contribute to the royalty-free pool
  339. # [15:21] <darobin> Ms2ger: actually, this is the only part of process that's important
  340. # [15:21] <darobin> and I reckon it's important people understand it
  341. # [15:21] <Ms2ger> Discussing it?
  342. # [15:21] <AutomatedTester> e.g. a vendor who isnt a working group member could say we aren't joining but you will need to pay us 1 meeeeellion dollars to make that spec go to rec?
  343. # [15:21] <jgraham> It seems reasonable to assume that a judge might take a dim view of a party that tried to make use of the fact that a spec on the Rec. track hadn't reached Rec. to extract royaltic.
  344. # [15:21] <darobin> because sadly, patents matter
  345. # [15:21] <darobin> Ms2ger: explaining it :)
  346. # [15:22] <jgraham> *royalties
  347. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> Anyhow
  348. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> </Ms2ger>
  349. # [15:22] <jgraham> (I am not a lawyer. If you take anything I say as legal advice you deserve what you get)
  350. # [15:23] <AutomatedTester> "why am I going to jail for murder? this is a patent law suit!. I blame jgraham!!!"
  351. # [15:24] <AutomatedTester> jgraham: darobin thanks for the lesson
  352. # [15:28] <darobin> AutomatedTester: don't hesitate to email me with questions or whatever whenever you have a question
  353. # [15:29] <AutomatedTester> darobin: MikeSmith has been helping me so far
  354. # [15:29] <darobin> AutomatedTester: in general, and I say this knowing that it will make some people here laugh, things mostly ever get complicated at W3C because people somehow impose that on themselves
  355. # [15:30] <darobin> but the actual rules are simple, so whenever something's complex you're probably doing it wrong
  356. # [15:30] <darobin> (or someone's telling you something wrong)
  357. # [15:30] <Ms2ger> The latter sure happens a lot
  358. # [15:30] <darobin> AutomatedTester: good, MikeSmith is one of those you can trust to have the proper amount of respect for the Process
  359. # [15:30] <darobin> Ms2ger: you don't say
  360. # [15:30] <Ms2ger> (Hi Ian)
  361. # [15:30] <darobin> I call it Process Lore
  362. # [15:31] <darobin> stuff that people consider Process but isn't
  363. # [15:31] <AutomatedTester> darobin: thats what MikeSmith has been doing, showing me the easy ways. I just then think the process is hackable and thats where it gets hard
  364. # [15:31] <AutomatedTester> I don't blame W3C staff on this
  365. # [15:31] <darobin> AutomatedTester: you don't need to hack the Process, it has only very few requirements — but you need to hack the people who say otherwise :)
  366. # [15:32] <AutomatedTester> with a machete?
  367. # [15:32] <darobin> whatever works :)
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  370. # [15:44] <jgraham> darobin: Or you are in the CSSWG and you have codified your own extra process because the processes wasn't processy enough
  371. # [15:46] <darobin> jgraham: that happens a lot, sadly
  372. # [15:46] * Joins: scott_gonzalez (~scott_gonzalez@public.cloak)
  373. # [15:46] <darobin> I should blog about that
  374. # [15:46] <jgraham> AutomatedTester: FWIW the formal requirements for interop are the entrace criteria for PR: http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#cfr
  375. # [16:01] <Ms2ger> plh, dunno if you get email, but there's comments for you in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/461
  376. # [16:03] <jgraham> Ms2ger: He doesn't
  377. # [16:03] <Ms2ger> plh, in that case, make sure you get email :)
  378. # [16:09] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: yt?
  379. # [16:10] <AutomatedTester> darobin: do I need to put arguments in the method signature <dt> in a spec
  380. # [16:10] <AutomatedTester> or just in the <dl class='parameters'> part?
  381. # [16:10] <darobin> AutomatedTester: the latter
  382. # [16:11] <darobin> AutomatedTester: you can in fact do either, but you can only attach documentation to arguments with the latter
  383. # [16:11] <Ms2ger> Hey darobin, so about removing old-style crap from respec... :)
  384. # [16:11] <darobin> I don't recommend doing both :)
  385. # [16:11] <darobin> Ms2ger: oh! what I nice idea!
  386. # [16:11] <Ms2ger> Do it! :)
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  390. # [16:28] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  391. # [16:36] <plh> ms2ger, I missed your comments indeed. thank you!
  392. # [16:37] <jgraham> plh: Add your email address on the homepage
  393. # [16:37] <plh> done
  394. # [16:38] <jgraham> Great
  395. # [16:40] <plh> I wrongly assumed critic would tell the guithub PR if something was coming up
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  398. # [16:45] <jgraham> Yeah, so it could do that but it would cause an epic amount of spam
  399. # [16:46] <Ms2ger> jgraham, btw, r/537 is accepted
  400. # [16:55] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Thanks
  401. # [16:55] <Ms2ger> jgraham, you should enable email :)
  402. # [17:00] <jgraham> Ms2ger: critic (1435)
  403. # [17:00] <jgraham> Not sure that too little email is the problem :p
  404. # [17:00] <Ms2ger> Heh
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  410. # [17:50] <plh> ms2ger, how did you generate http://i.imgur.com/VJ7YpvQ.png ?
  411. # [17:50] <plh> I've been looking in githut stats but didn't find the ones with the number of open PR overtime
  412. # [17:51] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Am now!
  413. # [17:54] <jgraham> plh: Well I am not Ms2ger (or so I want you to believe), but if I were, I would use the data at https://api.github.com/repos/w3c/web-platform-tests/pulls
  414. # [17:54] <jgraham> In particular created_at and closed_at
  415. # [17:55] <plh> ah, that looks like I was looking for indeed
  416. # [17:55] <plh> thank you
  417. # [17:56] <jgraham> Bonus points if you make a web page with the continutally updated data on
  418. # [17:56] <jgraham> We could put it at testthewebforward.org/fail.html
  419. # [17:56] <Ms2ger> plh, yeah, that
  420. # [17:56] <plh> fail or shame? :)
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  422. # [17:58] <Ms2ger> plh, https://gist.github.com/Ms2ger/8440074
  423. # [17:58] * Ms2ger dines
  424. # [17:58] <plh> somehow github sees me as #3 for the number of contributions since 2010, that doesn't look good
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  427. # [18:03] <jgraham> I'm not sure what those numbers are based on
  428. # [18:13] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  429. # [18:13] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Velmont created Velmont/move_ported_idb_tests (+2 new commits): https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/98cac66a2c98^...974a4ace4a03
  430. # [18:13] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/Velmont/move_ported_idb_tests 98cac66 Odin Hørthe Omdal: IndexedDB: Delete the Opera-ported Microsoft IDB tests
  431. # [18:13] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/Velmont/move_ported_idb_tests 974a4ac Odin Hørthe Omdal: IndexedDB: Ressurect the rewritten tests
  432. # [18:13] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  433. # [18:15] <Ms2ger> 214 changed files with 3,333 additions and 8,775 deletions.
  434. # [18:15] <Ms2ger> And who's going to review that? :)
  435. # [18:15] <jgraham> Ms2ger: You think about it, you own it :p
  436. # [18:16] * Quits: dom (dom@public.cloak) ("")
  437. # [18:16] <Ms2ger> Dammit you!
  438. # [18:17] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  439. # [18:17] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Velmont opened pull request #516: Move ported Opera IndexedDB tests (master...Velmont/move_ported_idb_tests) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/516
  440. # [18:17] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
  441. # [18:18] <odinho> More deletions than additions. Should be nice ofc. :) I will try to review parts of it.
  442. # [18:19] <odinho> If I can just figure out how to trick Critic to do that.
  443. # [18:19] <jgraham> odinho: Not hard, just use Manage Assignments
  444. # [18:20] <odinho> Hm. Awesome. That didn't work when I tried it some time ago with the internal critic. -- But I guess it was PEBCAK
  445. # [18:21] <odinho> Review progress 34% already, hey ho!
  446. # [18:24] <jgraham> That's a bit misleading :p
  447. # [18:24] <odinho> ^_^
  448. # [18:28] <Ms2ger> astearns, re testtwf... I have a lot of tests to review, if people there are interested ;)
  449. # [18:29] <Ms2ger> We never quite recover from those events
  450. # [18:32] <odinho> OK. I'm done with what I needed to get out of the system today :] Once those issues are fixed, I can start looking through the rest. -- And ofc, everyone welcome review.
  451. # [18:32] <odinho> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/558
  452. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> odinho, want to review some other tests? :)
  453. # [18:34] <odinho> I want to go home now! :D It's dark and snowy outside. I'm super tired after debugging gstreamer till the wee hours "yesterday". :)
  454. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> Well, you can do it at home for all I care :)
  455. # [18:37] <odinho> Might be more possible :] We'll see if I get to turn on the laptop today.
  456. # [18:38] <astearns> Ms2ger: do you have a list that could benefit from a random review? (as opposed to those needing specific expertise)
  457. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> odinho, but I'm sure you can find something on your dashboard :)
  458. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> astearns, so, yeah, that's annoying
  459. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> jgraham, does critic have other ways to look at the outstanding reviews than the dashboard?
  460. # [18:40] <jgraham> Ms2ger: If you have root access, the database repl?
  461. # [18:41] <jgraham> (I think "no" might have been the answer you were looking for)
  462. # [18:41] <jgraham> Ms2ger: What do you actually want?
  463. # [18:41] <Ms2ger> I think so too :)
  464. # [18:41] <Ms2ger> jgraham, I guess the list of open prs, but in critic
  465. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> Well, the ones that have unreviewed changes
  466. # [18:42] <jgraham> Oh, you can use search
  467. # [18:42] <jgraham> But annoyingly it's not linkable
  468. # [18:43] <jgraham> Don't think you can do "has unreviewed changes" there though
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  470. # [18:44] <Ms2ger> Hmm, and the dashboard only counts things I want to review, of course
  471. # [18:45] <Ms2ger> astearns, looks like there's a bunch of web components things if people are into that
  472. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> I thought Hayato Ito had be reviewing those
  473. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> *had been
  474. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> actually, Dominic Cooney more recently
  475. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> e.g., the Unipro-submitted oncese
  476. # [18:47] <MikeSmith> *ones
  477. # [18:47] <Ms2ger> 162, 173, 174 don't seem to have anything
  478. # [18:48] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Getting people to review tests at these things is hopless
  479. # [18:48] <jgraham> *hopeless
  480. # [18:48] <jgraham> Unless there will be a significantly different demographic at the next one
  481. # [18:48] <Ms2ger> I guess it probably is
  482. # [18:49] <Ms2ger> Maybe people want to address review comments from previous events?
  483. # [18:49] <jgraham> That actually sounds like it could be useful
  484. # [18:50] <jgraham> A specific list of issues that need to be fixed
  485. # [18:50] <jgraham> In my limited experience people just aren't that familiar with the specs, and aren't that experienced with test writing. They also tend to want to do the most complex things because they are the hot new technology.
  486. # [18:50] <Ms2ger> Right
  487. # [18:51] <jgraham> So it is easy to get people to sign up to write WebRTC tests, but hard to get useful WebRTC tests.
  488. # [18:52] <jgraham> And it's both hard to get people to sign up to write HTML tests and hard to get useful HTML tests, even though the barrier to entry is lower
  489. # [18:52] <jgraham> This is not really the attendee's fault though
  490. # [18:52] <Ms2ger> Indeed
  491. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> ArtB, you've got outstanding comments in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/90
  492. # [18:53] <jgraham> Things would be better if we had a clear idea of things that need specific action and if we targetted the events differently
  493. # [18:54] <jgraham> Well, the former is certain, the latter is just supposition
  494. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/blink-dev/ZgFLB9R0cO8/jOh0Q0JQrBMJ and https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/blink-dev/ZgFLB9R0cO8/efUSjxvCU7cJ btw
  495. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> "making it very quick to gettests into upstream and to then pull them back into Blink"
  496. # [18:59] <MikeSmith> "I think generally the hope we have (and also the other w3c test contributors have) is that we can make it very quick to upstream the tests."
  497. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> seems like somebody could response to say, a good way to do that would be to have somebody from the blink team helping actively to review w-p-t tests now
  498. # [19:01] <Ms2ger> Seems like somebody could be MikeSmith
  499. # [19:01] <MikeSmith> I was imagining somebody better
  500. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> someone more like jgraham
  501. # [19:02] <Ms2ger> foolip?
  502. # [19:02] <Ms2ger> Er, nvm
  503. # [19:05] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I can do it
  504. # [19:05] <jgraham> Although mostly I get ignored on blink-dev
  505. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I pay attention to you when you post to blink-dev :-)
  506. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> I reckon Dirk does too
  507. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> so who cares about the rest of the knobs there
  508. # [19:07] <jgraham> I wonder how long until I accidentially post on google groups as K—
  509. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> Josef K ?
  510. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> oh K from the Castle
  511. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> hey btw, progress! http://i.imgur.com/VJ7YpvQ.png
  512. # [19:09] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  513. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: wouldn't it be better to have a graph that shows the number of PRs that have been closed?
  514. # [19:10] <Ms2ger> How so?
  515. # [19:10] <Ms2ger> I mean, better for what?
  516. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> better for showing Progress
  517. # [19:11] <jgraham> I think the whole web platform thing is Kafka-esque on so many levels — fractally Kafka-esque, if you like — that posting as Josef K would be highly appropriate.
  518. # [19:11] <Ms2ger> I want to show lack of Progress, though :)
  519. # [19:14] <MikeSmith> jgraham: you sound like man who should read The Restraint of Beasts by Magnus Mills
  520. # [19:16] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: true. that message of that diagram is "Need more reviewers" I guess. Which is the right message.
  521. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> It is
  522. # [19:16] <Ms2ger> Also, it would be nice if someone at Microsoft would address review comments
  523. # [19:20] <MikeSmith> I guess we should try to talk with John Jansen about that
  524. # [19:21] <Ms2ger> Want to do that? :)
  525. # [19:24] * Quits: ArtB (~abarsto@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
  526. # [19:31] <MikeSmith> yeah I will
  527. # [19:33] <MikeSmith> maybe we should start using labels
  528. # [19:33] <MikeSmith> so we could have a "contributed by MS" label
  529. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: it wouldn't be nice if you suggested we use the pile of poo unicode character for that label
  530. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> so please don't suggest that
  531. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> :D
  532. # [19:35] <jgraham> Obviously we need open badges
  533. # [19:36] <jgraham> Nothing motivates a Silicon Valley engineer on hundreds of thousands of dollars a year like the chance to get a pretend badge
  534. # [19:47] <astearns> jgraham: right - it has to be a physical sticker for their laptop
  535. # [19:49] * Joins: abarsto (~abarsto@public.cloak)
  536. # [19:49] * abarsto is now known as ArtB
  537. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> jgraham, mm, I want badges
  538. # [19:57] <plh> I could help nagging John Jansen if needed
  539. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> That would be appreciated :)
  540. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> And some people at Google?
  541. # [20:00] <plh> that depends who I guess but I guess it would be good that I see Dirk again in a not-so-distant future
  542. # [20:00] * plh has too many guesses
  543. # [20:02] <Ms2ger> I gues
  544. # [20:02] <Ms2ger> s
  545. # [20:03] <plh> :)
  546. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> But in general, feel free to poke anyone who knows a spec from a hole in the ground :)
  547. # [20:07] <Ms2ger> And anyone else
  548. # [20:07] <plh> I try to but sometimes I have the impression to be a broken record
  549. # [20:31] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  550. # [20:34] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  551. # [20:46] * Joins: krisk (~krisk@public.cloak)
  552. # [20:49] <krisk> FYI - I FWD and email from Robin to the list (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-test-infra/2014JanMar/0012.html)
  553. # [20:49] <krisk> If you are intrested please review and provide feedback
  554. # [20:50] <Ms2ger> Hey krisk!
  555. # [20:50] <Ms2ger> There's a lot of Microsoft tests under old-tests in w-p-t
  556. # [20:51] <Ms2ger> denis has started working on them, but any chance you guys could help out submitting them as PRs and addressing review comments?
  557. # [20:53] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Replied
  558. # [20:54] <jgraham> "4.2.3 The base element needs testing priority" - glwt
  559. # [20:55] <Ms2ger> I see "base" twice on my dashboard
  560. # [20:55] <Ms2ger> Maybe someone can review?
  561. # [20:56] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  562. # [20:59] * Joins: plh3 (plehegar@public.cloak)
  563. # [20:59] <jgraham> iirc the spec might well be wrong
  564. # [21:00] <Ms2ger> Plausible
  565. # [21:05] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  566. # [21:09] * Ms2ger wonders if krisk saw that
  567. # [21:10] * Joins: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak)
  568. # [21:11] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: yt?
  569. # [21:18] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Yes.
  570. # [21:18] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: are you in town next week or this week?
  571. # [21:18] <AutomatedTester> or both
  572. # [21:18] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: I'm here now, leaving on Monday. :)
  573. # [21:19] <AutomatedTester> ahhh
  574. # [21:19] <AutomatedTester> sod
  575. # [21:19] <wilhelm> Just arrived.
  576. # [21:19] * Joins: jhammel (~jhammel@public.cloak)
  577. # [21:58] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
  578. # [21:58] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  579. # [21:58] * Joins: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak)
  580. # [22:11] * Quits: darobin (rberjon@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  581. # [22:24] * Joins: glenn_ (~gadams@public.cloak)
  582. # [22:30] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  583. # [22:38] <krisk> Yes - I'm back from the Holiday break and done with alot of the IE11 launch work.
  584. # [22:38] <krisk> So I should be around helping
  585. # [22:39] <Ms2ger> Good to hear :)
  586. # [22:40] <AutomatedTester> krisk: do you work directly with John Jansen?
  587. # [22:40] <krisk> yes I work with John all the time
  588. # [22:40] <AutomatedTester> krisk: give that man a big hug from me please
  589. # [22:40] <krisk> I'm also going to try to pop on the #testing IRC
  590. # [22:40] <krisk> I'm not longer allowed to do that :)
  591. # [22:41] <krisk> I'll tell him that though..
  592. # [22:41] <AutomatedTester> :)
  593. # [22:41] <AutomatedTester> and try get him in here more often
  594. # [22:42] * Ms2ger now wonders if there's an MS-wide ban on hugs, or this is krisk-specific
  595. # [22:43] <AutomatedTester> it might be a John Jansen thing ;)
  596. # [22:48] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  597. # [23:03] * Quits: glenn_ (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  598. # [23:17] * Quits: jhammel (~jhammel@public.cloak) ("leaving")
  599. # [23:54] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
  600. # Session Close: Thu Jan 16 00:00:01 2014

The end :)