/irc-logs / w3c / #testing / 2014-02-25 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Feb 25 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #testing
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# [07:40] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] xiaojunwu opened pull request #693: Tests for the window's length attribute (master...submission/xiaojunwu/window-length) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/693
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# [08:44] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] deniak opened pull request #694: ref test for wbr (master...wbr-element) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/694
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# [08:46] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger closed pull request #624: Update template contents owner tests to match spec changes (master...template-owner-document) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/624
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# [09:58] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] foolip closed pull request #682: Test for seeking to currentTime (master...seek-to-currentTime) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/682
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# [11:41] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] deniak opened pull request #695: disabled elements cannot be focused (master...disabled-elements) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/695
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# [14:04] <plh> jgraham? you're in London nowadays, right?
# [14:05] <jgraham> plh: Yes
# [14:08] <plh> I'll be in London nexct week. happyt to stop by and catch up if you'd like to
# [14:11] <jgraham> Sure, I should be around
# [14:12] <plh> great. I'll follow by email
# [14:12] <plh> thank you
# [14:12] <jgraham> Great, I look forward to it
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# [15:59] <AutomatedTester> denis: hey, just an FYI about drag and drop https://code.google.com/p/selenium/issues/detail?id=3604
# [16:03] <denis> thanks AutomatedTester, I'll take a look
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# [16:04] <AutomatedTester> denis: its just a "its broken" bug
# [16:04] <AutomatedTester> :)
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# [16:58] <MikeSmith> AutomatedTester: what time we starting today?
# [16:58] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: from 9am
# [16:58] <MikeSmith> ok
# [16:59] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: its more I expect people to arrive then and we can have breakfast
# [16:59] <AutomatedTester> its a very light breakfast fwiw
# [16:59] <MikeSmith> ok
# [16:59] <AutomatedTester> MikeSmith: I am in the room now if you want to come on over
# [16:59] <MikeSmith> ah cool
# [16:59] <Ms2ger> Unless you want a real breakfast ;)
# [17:00] <MikeSmith> hah
# [17:00] <AutomatedTester> hehe
# [17:14] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: You're there now? I'll move in your general direction, then.
# [17:14] <AutomatedTester> wilhelm: yup
# [17:21] <jgraham> I hope everyone realises that AutomatedTester plans to abandon them in the labyrinth
# [17:21] <AutomatedTester> jgraham: *ssssshhhhhh*
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# [17:51] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-testing-irc
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# [17:52] <wilhelm> Meeting: Browser testing & tools WG F2F, San Francisco, February 2014
# [17:52] <wilhelm> Chair: wilhelm
# [17:52] <wilhelm> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2014-February-F2F
# [17:53] <wilhelm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [17:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-testing-minutes.html wilhelm
# [17:53] <wilhelm> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [17:53] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, wilhelm
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# [18:07] <wilhelm> Scribe: wilhelm
# [18:08] <wilhelm> Topic: Introductions
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# [18:11] <wilhelm> Topic: State of the union
# [18:11] <wilhelm> sstewart6: I've started adding URI endpoints to the spec. That should make it easier to write conforming implementations.
# [18:12] <wilhelm> Automate_: I've been trying to make the spec look like a spec.
# [18:12] <wilhelm> ... User interactions stawman discussed in June is landed.
# [18:12] <wilhelm> ... Please raise bugs on this.
# [18:12] <JohnJansen> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/tip/webdriver-spec.html
# [18:12] <wilhelm> ... Going through the bugs, closing some.
# [18:12] <wilhelm> sstewart6: We've moving towards Selenium 3.
# [18:13] <wilhelm> ... Selenium is the example implementation of this.
# [18:13] <wilhelm> ... Selenium 3 will be W3C compatible.
# [18:13] <wilhelm> ... It has not shipped yet.
# [18:13] <wilhelm> Topic: Agenda review
# [18:13] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2014-February-F2F
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# [18:15] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2014-February-F2F
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# [18:16] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [18:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
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# [18:16] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [18:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, MikeSmith
# [18:17] <wilhelm> lukeis: Frame searching bug?
# [18:17] <wilhelm> Automate_: There is a section on bugs.
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# [18:17] <lukeis> *switching (not searching)
# [18:17] <wilhelm> Topic: Recap, actions from TPAC
# [18:18] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Come up with a better name of interactable?
# [18:18] <wilhelm> Automate_: No conclusion.
# [18:18] <wilhelm> ato__: Suggested reachable.
# [18:18] <wilhelm> isReachable
# [18:19] * ato_ is now known as ato
# [18:19] <wilhelm> Automate_: Minutes from last time cover the consensus.
# [18:19] <wilhelm> sstewart6: We had a discussion with P&F WG last meeting.
# [18:20] <wilhelm> Automate_: We spoke to the webperf group last time, re: page visibility and element visibility.
# [18:20] <wilhelm> Automate_: sstewart6 showed them how we'd want it to work.
# [18:20] <wilhelm> Automate_: That was going to be in a future version of the spec.
# [18:20] <wilhelm> ... They just pushed one of their specs to CR.
# [18:21] <wilhelm> ... Mozilla has raised bugs on this.
# [18:21] <wilhelm> sstewart6: We did rename section 10.1.
# [18:21] <wilhelm> sstewart6: No progress on "Request elementfrompoint with a DOM relative coordinate instead of a viewport relative coordinate"
# [18:21] <Automate_> http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-testing-minutes.html#ActionSummary
# [18:21] <wilhelm> sstewart6: We might need to handle the visibility check ourselves.
# [18:22] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Has anyone said they want to work on this?
# [18:22] <wilhelm> sstewart6: The closes we get is the webperf group. Use case is advertiser.
# [18:22] <wilhelm> s/advertiser/advertisers
# [18:22] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Why did CSS not decide to do it?
# [18:22] <wilhelm> Automate_: I raised a bug against CSSOM.
# [18:22] <wilhelm> Automate_: I suspect it's lost along the way.
# [18:23] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Discussed in 2012. CSS passed buck to DOM land, and the other way around.
# [18:23] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Make we could motivate Moz CSS rep to work on this...
# [18:23] <Ms2ger> Link?
# [18:25] <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to talk to CSS WG about visibility detection
# [18:25] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:26] <wilhelm> ACTION: Automate_ to speak to Tantek about his old action item on visibility and hit testing
# [18:26] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [18:26] <wilhelm> Automate_: There is no good definition of hit testing anywhere.
# [18:26] <JohnJansen> http://www.w3.org/TR/cssom-view/
# [18:26] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Covered in CSS OM View spec?
# [18:26] <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/
# [18:26] * wilhelm Ms2ger : Thanks. (c:
# [18:27] <MikeSmith> -> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/ CSSOM View Module
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# [18:27] <wilhelm> Automate_: Nobody wants to define this, as it's a big can of worms.
# [18:27] <JohnJansen> and the more generic CSSOM spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/cssom/
# [18:27] <MikeSmith> -> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/ CSS Object Model (CSSOM)
# [18:27] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Add scrollwheel support: no progress.
# [18:28] <sstewart6> http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-testing-minutes.html#ActionSummary
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# [18:28] <wilhelm> Automate_: First action on me is done.
# [18:29] <wilhelm> Automate_: No progress on upstream of screenshot tests. Has not been high priority.
# [18:29] <wilhelm> Automate_: Strawman of 17.2 is now in place.
# [18:30] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: No progress on link from TR to editors draft.
# [18:30] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: TR will point to editors draft.
# [18:31] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: A recurring problem is that implementors use the outdated TR version of the spec, while they should be using the editors draft.
# [18:32] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Some progress on identifying tests to move over from the open source project.
# [18:32] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Placeholders have been added.
# [18:33] <wilhelm> sstewart6: No progress on WCAG analysis.
# [18:33] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Strawman for HTTP normalisation for the JSON Wire Protocol has been added to the spec.
# [18:33] <wilhelm> lukeis: Is this section G?
# [18:34] <wilhelm> sstewart6: That section will be automated based on content elsewhere in the spec.
# [18:34] <sstewart6> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html#methods-2
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# [18:35] <wilhelm> Automate_: The notes in the table - how would they be different from describing how the method is working?
# [18:35] <wilhelm> sstewart6: The note will make it over to section G.
# [18:35] <wilhelm> Automate_: We need to conscious that different parts of the spec will go out of sync.
# [18:35] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Should be a reference to a particular section.
# [18:36] <wilhelm> ... We could make the notes non-normative.
# [18:36] <wilhelm> Automate_: Nah.
# [18:36] <wilhelm> sstewart6: These are the URLs that all implementations will support.
# [18:36] <wilhelm> Automate_: Moz will support these.
# [18:36] <wilhelm> Automate_: ato has done work on this recently.
# [18:37] <wilhelm> Automate_: web-platform-test will make it into the main Moz tree.
# [18:37] <wilhelm> Automate_: For selendroid there's going to be interesting problem you need to solve.
# [18:38] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Main problem is instanziating the browser...
# [18:38] <wilhelm> lukeis: I will submit patches..
# [18:39] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Current URLs have a leading slash. They may not be in the root.
# [18:39] <wilhelm> lukeis: We could have a prefix?
# [18:39] <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to add prefix to JSON URLs
# [18:39] * RRSAgent records action 3
# [18:40] * wilhelm : Coffee break. We'll resume at 09:50.
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# [18:52] <wilhelm> Topic: Current timeline of spec
# [18:52] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Where are we?
# [18:52] <wilhelm> sstewart6: We're not tracking as fast as we should.
# [18:52] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Spec is, test suite is not.
# [18:53] * Ms2ger remains silent
# [18:53] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Bugs have been raised on the spec
# [18:53] <AutomatedTester> Ms2ger: :)
# [18:53] <wilhelm> wilhelm: I reported some bugs on wooly language of the spec.
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# [18:54] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Ms2ger will go through the spec and rip it apart. He has already given useful input.
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# [18:54] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: (Cites examples.)
# [18:55] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: We have a lot of fluffy language. Describing features, but lacking in confromance requirements.
# [18:55] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Input from jgraham would also be useful here.
# [18:56] * jgraham looks up
# [18:56] <wilhelm> ato__: Progress on the test suite may be slow due to style differences in test suite.
# [18:56] <wilhelm> ato__: Using the Python package makes it harder to test lower level things.
# [18:56] <wilhelm> ato__: Capabilities are not exposed.
# [18:56] <wilhelm> sstewart6: I'd use a raw HTTP library.
# [18:57] * Ms2ger jgraham: reviewing the webdriver spec
# [18:57] * Ms2ger suggests wptserve
# [18:57] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Set aside time to discuss the style of the suite.
# [18:57] <ato> Ms2ger: We'll do that.
# [18:57] * jgraham wonders what a raw http library is
# [18:57] <wilhelm> ato__: We should switch to wptserve.
# [18:58] <Ms2ger> :)
# [18:58] <wilhelm> ACTION: ato__ to switch to wptserve in webdriver test suite
# [18:58] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [18:58] <ato> wilhelm: Hi, this is me.
# [18:58] <wilhelm> sstewart6: We're sort of on track with the spec, but not with the suite.
# [18:59] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: There will be a lot of changes needed to the spec, to be discovered as we work on the tests.
# [19:00] <wilhelm> Topic: Charter
# [19:00] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: You don't need to do anything! I need to get off my ass and do something.
# [19:01] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: The charter needs some more detail on milestones.
# [19:02] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: There is a heartbeat requirement about pushing to TR.
# [19:03] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: We'll ask for a two year extension for the charter.
# [19:04] <wilhelm> Topic: Bugs! Woo!
# [19:04] <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20860
# [19:04] <wilhelm> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=WebDriver&list_id=33041&product=Browser%20Test%2FTools%20WG&;resolution=---
# [19:06] <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21184
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# [19:07] <wilhelm> jimevans1: The use case is: suppose you have an element that is so large that even scrolling it into the viewport, the center will not be in the viewport.
# [19:07] <wilhelm> jimevans1: The script won't be able to click the center.
# [19:07] <wilhelm> MarcFisher: What if the center is otherwise obscured?
# [19:08] <wilhelm> sstewart6: If the center is obscured: don't use click. Use interactions API.
# [19:08] <wilhelm> jimevans1: Proposed: Click could still work by clicking on the midpoint of the visible area.
# [19:09] <wilhelm> mdas: Why can't we just scroll to where we want to click?
# [19:09] <wilhelm> jimevans1: We were lazy...
# [19:10] <wilhelm> sstewart6: (Describes approach similar to what is proposed in the bug.)
# [19:11] <wilhelm> (Conclusion to this issue is added to the bug.)
# [19:12] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24364
# [19:13] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Use case: run test with a constrained viewport. Want to compare screenshots.
# [19:13] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Better: Capture the top-level browsing context.
# [19:13] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Or the current browsing context.
# [19:13] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Chrome team was not happy with the whole DOM.
# [19:14] <wilhelm> Shuotao_chris_: Lacking low-level tools for this...
# [19:14] <wilhelm> sstewart6: If it's in the spec...
# [19:14] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Stitching is an awful approach.
# [19:15] <wilhelm> MarcFisher: Don't let the limitations of Chrome limit us here.
# [19:15] <wilhelm> sstewart6: We resize IE windows to the document size in the IEdriver.
# [19:16] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Most of the time you don't need to worry about what's outside the viewport.
# [19:16] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Use a flag?
# [19:16] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: It's better to target a specific area.
# [19:17] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Element capture.
# [19:17] <wilhelm> sstewart6: MS and Google is saying taking a screenshot of the entire page is difficult.
# [19:17] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Moz implementation is a hack...
# [19:17] <wilhelm> sstewart6: What is a good way to do this? I'd like to hear from the implementors.
# [19:18] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Visible viewport?
# [19:18] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: We'd like to have an option. Full viewport or the whole document.
# [19:18] * Ms2ger disapproves of options
# [19:19] <wilhelm> sstewart6: All implementations must be able to capture the viewport. Capability for whole document.
# [19:19] <wilhelm> ato: Why not just use element capture of the root element?
# [19:20] <wilhelm> sstewart6: It will depend on the browser. You can't just assume it works.
# [19:20] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: If someone wanted to test their responsive web site, we don't actually support that.
# [19:21] <wilhelm> sstewart6: When capturing the top level browsing context, maintain page width for this use case.
# [19:22] <wilhelm> sstewart6: In level 2, we can describe the more complex case of rotation, etc.
# [19:23] <wilhelm> sstewart6: All browsers must be able to capture the viewport. All browsers should be able to capture the entire document as if the window was resized vertically. Capability for the latter.
# [19:24] <wilhelm> seva: How would you request either of these?
# [19:24] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Capability.
# [19:24] <wilhelm> sstewart6: We should prefer the full document.
# [19:25] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Chrome disagrees with making the full DOM default. If running tests against my site, I'd need to store images for both variants.
# [19:25] <wilhelm> MarcFisher: Screenshotting just the element is more sensible.
# [19:26] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Use case of position:fixed;
# [19:26] <wilhelm> sstewart6: We could add a flag on the wire to indicate size.
# [19:27] <wilhelm> MarcFisher: It's a POST command. We can add values to it.
# [19:27] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Capability on whether you can do these things.
# [19:27] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Pass a parameter.
# [19:27] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Default is as big as you can go.
# [19:28] <wilhelm> ato: We should have a default.
# [19:28] <wilhelm> seva: Interop is the argument here. If all browsers support viewport, we should default to that.
# [19:29] <wilhelm> sstewart6: If you capture an element and the element is bigger than the viewport...
# [19:30] <wilhelm> sstewart6: What do we do?
# [19:30] <wilhelm> mdas: Use a separate canvas?
# [19:30] <wilhelm> Shuotao_chris_: Won't work in ChromeDriver.
# [19:30] <ato> JohnJansen: Fixed
# [19:30] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Why?
# [19:31] <wilhelm> Shuotao_chris_: We don't have the low level support.
# [19:31] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Fundamental constraint?
# [19:32] <wilhelm> Shuotao_chris_: GPU team says no. They don't want to do a hack.
# [19:32] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Shove the element into the top left corner and capture as much as you can.
# [19:33] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Leave it undefined?
# [19:33] <wilhelm> sstewart6: We could put a note in.
# [19:33] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: (Quotes spec on this.)
# [19:34] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Two floats, side by side. In Chrome, there's allowed to be a overlap. In IE, no. Interop issue. We need to be able to catch that.
# [19:35] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: For that bug, I know I need the parent element. Other times, I don't know.
# [19:35] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: I prefer if it doesn't scroll.
# [19:35] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Use case: long page, element is out of view.
# [19:36] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: I'd rather scroll to view first.
# [19:36] <wilhelm> sstewart6: There is no such feature.
# [19:36] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Part of the audience is people without programming experience. We need to make this simple.
# [19:37] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: For reftests, we could add "take screenshot without scrolling".
# [19:38] <wilhelm> wilhelm: We need to support both use cases here. Reftests and magic scrolling to element.
# [19:39] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Option of passing a parameter rather than a capability.
# [19:39] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: If parameter is not there, scroll. If it is there, don't.
# [19:40] <wilhelm> ACTION: AutomatedTester to add a flag to take element screenshot without scrolling
# [19:40] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [19:41] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24633
# [19:42] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Which option should it be?
# [19:42] <wilhelm> jimevans1: Descendant.
# [19:42] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20975
# [19:43] <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to define that cookies can only be set against domains that are currently loaded
# [19:43] * RRSAgent records action 6
# [19:43] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak)
# [19:43] <wilhelm> lukeis: Use case is: set cookie before navigating to the site.
# [19:43] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Don't do that.
# [19:43] <wilhelm> lukeis: It should throw an exception.
# [19:43] <wilhelm> sstewart6: I can add language for that.
# [19:44] <wilhelm> sstewart6: People set cookies to avoid login.
# [19:44] <wilhelm> sstewart6: They should navigate to a page, set a cookie, then reload.
# [19:44] <wilhelm> sstewart6: This is to allow a pure JS implementation of this.
# [19:46] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22653
# [19:47] <wilhelm> ato: Greg had an opinion on this in June.
# [19:47] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Use case in Maps.
# [19:47] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make mintues
# [19:47] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make mintues', MikeSmith. Try /msg RRSAgent help
# [19:47] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [19:47] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [19:48] <wilhelm> MarcFisher: What interaction would you want to do with the container?
# [19:48] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Hover?
# [19:48] <wilhelm> sstewart6: We need Greg to clarify.
# [19:49] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22987
# [19:49] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Punt to level 2.
# [19:50] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23020
# [19:51] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23791
# [19:51] <wilhelm> jimevans1: No, just no?
# [19:52] <wilhelm> MarcFisher: Definitely level 2.
# [19:52] <wilhelm> sstewart6: I have no idea how to implement this.
# [19:53] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23868
# [19:54] <wilhelm> sstewart6: I don't think this is incorrect. Close?
# [19:54] <wilhelm> sstewart6: The click on element is do what I mean.
# [19:54] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Do as I mean APIs could be implemented in top of the interaction APIs.
# [19:54] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@public.cloak) ("")
# [19:54] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Bleedthrough expected.
# [19:55] <wilhelm> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23869
# [19:55] <sstewart6> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html#cookies
# [19:56] <wilhelm> sstewart6: What other data would you like to return?
# [19:56] <wilhelm> sstewart6: FF does a good job of this. IE returns name and value.
# [19:56] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: We could return if it's third party, session cookie, secure cookie...
# [19:57] <wilhelm> ACTION: AutomatedTester to add whether it's a session cookie, a secure cookie
# [19:57] * RRSAgent records action 7
# [19:57] <wilhelm> ACTION: AutomatedTester to link to the cookies RFC to describe the data format for expiry
# [19:57] * RRSAgent records action 8
# [19:58] * wilhelm : Coffee break!
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# [20:16] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23876
# [20:16] <wilhelm> ato: We reached a conclusion in Boston, but spec is not updated.
# [20:17] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Do we want to spec files going over the wire?
# [20:17] <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to describe how we send files across the wire
# [20:17] * RRSAgent records action 9
# [20:18] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23949
# [20:18] <wilhelm> ato: This is in level 2.
# [20:19] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23950
# [20:19] * Quits: dannin (~quassel@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [20:19] <wilhelm> ato: Since we're adding the argument to take screenshot, we'll need this.
# [20:19] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Spec says you can pass whatever across the wire.
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# [20:21] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23972
# [20:21] <wilhelm> sstewart6: I'm in favour of this.
# [20:21] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: That' fine.
# [20:22] <sstewart6> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html#platform-names
# [20:22] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Do we want to go lowercase?
# [20:22] <wilhelm> (Yes.)
# [20:22] <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to lowercase platform names
# [20:22] * RRSAgent records action 10
# [20:23] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24063
# [20:24] <wilhelm> sstewart6: That's legit.
# [20:24] <wilhelm> sstewart6: I'll soften the language to SHOULD.
# [20:25] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24132
# [20:25] <wilhelm> sstewart6: This should be in level 1.
# [20:25] <wilhelm> sstewart6: This MUST be in level 1.
# [20:26] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24133
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# [20:26] <wilhelm> sstewart6: I'll take that.
# [20:26] <wilhelm> sstewart6: INteresting case of quit mulitple times.
# [20:26] <wilhelm> lukeis: Case of close last window.
# [20:26] <wilhelm> AutomatedTester: Language is fluffy, but says you should close...
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# [20:27] <sstewart6> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html#closing-windows
# [20:27] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24225
# [20:29] <wilhelm> sstewart6: We could drop id. This is possible with CSS selectors.
# [20:30] <wilhelm> sstewart6: We could also drop the capabilities.
# [20:32] <wilhelm> sstewart6: The language bindings can still support id. But the remote end won't need to.
# [20:33] <wilhelm> seva: This may confuse other audiences.
# [20:34] <wilhelm> seva: Does the spec cover language bindings?
# [20:34] <wilhelm> sstewart6: No.
# [20:35] <wilhelm> lukeis: For native language bindings, id is still valid.
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# [20:38] <wilhelm> sstewart6: We will remove id, not implement classname. We will remove capability for CSS selector.
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# [20:39] <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to remove id location strategy
# [20:39] * RRSAgent records action 11
# [20:40] <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to remove CSS selector capability (it's assumed)
# [20:40] * RRSAgent records action 12
# [20:40] <wilhelm> MarcFisher: Add note that those issues can be handled on the local end?
# [20:40] <wilhelm> ACTION: sstewart6 to add a note that you can use extension mechanisms to add location strategies
# [20:40] * RRSAgent records action 13
# [20:41] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: We don't support XPath.
# [20:41] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Must we have a must for XPath?
# [20:42] <wilhelm> sstewart6: XPath is commonly used by test authors.
# [20:42] <wilhelm> sstewart6: There is a JS library for this.
# [20:43] <wilhelm> sstewart6: All it needs to do is to appear to support it. Translating to querySelectorAll is fine.
# [20:43] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Yes, we can translate it on our end.
# [20:44] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Why do we keep XPath?
# [20:44] <wilhelm> sstewart6: It's popular.
# [20:45] <wilhelm> jimevans1: It's the only way to select things via visible text.
# [20:46] <sstewart6> https://code.google.com/p/wicked-good-xpath/
# [20:46] <wilhelm> sstewart6: It's popular among QA.
# [20:46] <wilhelm> wilhelm: Coud we subset it? So we don't need all of XPath?
# [20:46] <wilhelm> ato: That's not a bad idea.
# [20:46] <wilhelm> sstewart6: The problem is there are so many existing tests that rely on this.
# [20:47] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Should instead of must?
# [20:47] <wilhelm> sstewart6: I don't want to break existing tests.
# [20:47] <wilhelm> jimevans1: Traversal use cases are also not overed by selectors.
# [20:48] <wilhelm> ato: Could we keep this in the language bindings?
# [20:48] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Or keep it as is. More efficient for the mobile use case.
# [20:48] <wilhelm> sstewart6: I hate it, but we need to keep XPath.
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# [20:49] <wilhelm> mdas_: Deprecation warning?
# [20:49] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Little impact.
# [20:50] <wilhelm> wilhelm: Can we start the long march towards removing the use cases for XPath by subsetting?
# [20:50] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Yes, but not in level 1.
# [20:51] <wilhelm> sstewart6: XPath must be supported, but not neccessarily in the browser itself.
# [20:51] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Our driver won't support XPath natively.
# [20:51] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: We'll have to write a translator.
# [20:51] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: We won't write our tests using XPath.
# [20:52] <wilhelm> sstewart6: We put this as a must. We ask Google, Salesforce, Facebook about the prevalence of XPath.
# [20:52] <wilhelm> ato: What does wpt do here?
# [20:53] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: We're doing querySelectorAll for wpt.
# [20:53] <wilhelm> lukeis: We have to look through RC code...
# [20:53] <wilhelm> JohnJansen: Interesting data point: How many can be transslated to querySelectorAll?
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# [20:54] <wilhelm> sstewart6: If your translator is avaible, people could run their tests to see what happens.
# [20:54] <wilhelm> ... We'll revisit this issue when we have data.
# [20:54] <wilhelm> seva: We will not define select by text?
# [20:54] <wilhelm> sstewart6: Not in level 1.
# [20:56] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24373
# [20:56] <JohnJansen> So there's no confusion: The IE team is writing a web driver implementation for IE11+
# [20:56] <sstewart6> :))
# [20:57] * sstewart6 does happy dance
# [20:57] * plh danses as well
# [20:57] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24634
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# [20:59] <wilhelm> sstewart6: It's a must, really. Even if it has no size, it looks like the body element is there.
# [20:59] <wilhelm> lukeis: I'm okay with saying the body is always visible.
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# [21:04] <wilhelm> ACTION: ato to research root element behaviour in HTML and XML
# [21:04] * RRSAgent records action 14
# [21:04] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24635
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# [21:05] * wilhelm : Lunch!
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# [22:21] <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith
# [22:22] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [22:22] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [22:23] <MikeSmith> Present+ MikeSmith
# [22:23] <JohnJansen> Present+ JohnJansen
# [22:23] <wilhelm> Present+ wilhelm
# [22:23] <seva> Present+ seva
# [22:23] <MarcFisher> Present+ MarcFisher
# [22:23] <lukeis> Present+ LukeInmanSemerau
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# [22:23] <ato> Present+ ato
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# [22:24] <jimevans> Present+ jimevans
# [22:24] <mdas> Present+ mdas
# [22:24] <sstewart6> Present+ SimonStewart
# [22:24] <sam_> Present+ samuong
# [22:24] <Automate_> Present+ DavidBurns
# [22:24] <Shuotao> Present+ ShuotaoGao
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# [22:24] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24635
# [22:24] <dannin> Present + Dale Annin
# [22:24] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [22:24] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [22:25] <MikeSmith> switchToFrame should only accept a WebElement or number argument
# [22:25] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: why should it not?
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# [22:25] <MikeSmith> Automate_: everybody except IE doesn't follow the spec
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# [22:26] <MikeSmith> MarcFisher: or we could just get rid of the index
# [22:26] <dannin> Present+ dannin
# [22:27] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24662
# [22:27] <MikeSmith> Automate_: see that bug
# [22:27] * Automate_ is now known as AutomatedTester
# [22:27] <AutomatedTester> Present+ DavidBurns
# [22:27] <MikeSmith> AutomatedTester: discussion among Hixie and bz
# [22:29] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: what's wrong with us retaining the number and equatin
# [22:35] <MikeSmith> [discussion of how to address the issue]
# [22:36] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: if I'm a developer and I want to switch to frame at index 1, how do I implement that?
# [22:36] <MikeSmith> mdas: can't you get the frame element
# [22:36] <MikeSmith> jimevans: not across domains
# [22:36] <MikeSmith> AutomatedTester: can see it but can't see what's inside it
# [22:38] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: spec currently just says, whatever frame would be given back?
# [22:38] <MikeSmith> MarcFisher: but that may not produce the same frame across browsers?
# [22:38] <MikeSmith> s/across browsers?/across browsers/
# [22:39] <MikeSmith> MarcFisher: the problem is that the current behavior is not useful
# [22:39] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: it may be sufficiently useful
# [22:39] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: question is whether this is our problem to solve
# [22:40] <MikeSmith> ato: we could defer this to the next f2f
# [22:44] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: for us I don't think it matters
# [22:45] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: remove the locaters by ID and name
# [22:45] <MikeSmith> ... keep index and webElement
# [22:46] <MikeSmith> ... and add a note that webElement is the preferred for the reason that index won't give you the same frame across browser engines
# [22:47] <MikeSmith> lukeis: [want to suggest we discuss problem of switching from a frame to its parent frame]
# [22:48] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: what do people think about switching to parent? quick vote
# [22:48] <MikeSmith> [everybody likes it]
# [22:49] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: ok we'll do it then
# [22:51] <MikeSmith> [agreement about speccing it by adding descriptive string (instead of say, -1)]
# [22:52] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@public.cloak) ("nn")
# [22:52] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: pluse new endpoint
# [22:52] <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: one other thing about frames
# [22:52] <MikeSmith> action: Luke to identify new endpoint for hooking switch to parent into
# [22:52] * RRSAgent records action 15
# [22:53] <MikeSmith> action: Simon to define frame in section 6.1
# [22:53] * RRSAgent records action 16
# [22:54] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
# [22:54] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/25-testing-minutes.html MikeSmith
# [22:54] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24791
# [22:55] <MikeSmith> Drop reference to HTML4 from the "Interactable elements" chapter
# [22:55] * Quits: glenn (~gadams@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
# [22:55] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24792
# [22:59] <MikeSmith> action: David to review references to ensure they meet transition requirements
# [22:59] * RRSAgent records action 17
# [23:00] <MikeSmith> "Page load strategies" constants are ambiguous
# [23:00] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: I will fix that
# [23:01] <sstewart6> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24794
# [23:01] <MikeSmith> HTTPS requirements are inconsistent
# [23:01] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: I will fixe that
# [23:02] <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20947
# [23:02] <MikeSmith> Click does not mention if it should/shouldnt wait for page loads if its noticed (
# [23:03] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: that's deliberate
# [23:03] <mdas> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20947
# [23:14] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [23:16] <MikeSmith> [discussing how to identify use case of how to log what command caused a failure]
# [23:16] <sstewart6> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html#extending-the-protocol
# [23:16] <MikeSmith> [noting that logging still needs to be written]
# [23:17] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: that section describes how to deal with this right now
# [23:18] <lukeis> example of extending the protocol: https://github.com/selendroid/selendroid/commit/d275f3a10b63b3fb9616f0bc677b3262addd6c95
# [23:19] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: I will attempt add a [placeholder] for logging API [soon]
# [23:23] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak)
# [23:29] * Quits: dannin (~quassel@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:29] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [23:30] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak)
# [23:33] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) ("My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
# [23:34] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak)
# [23:34] <MikeSmith> Topic: Clarifications
# [23:35] <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: in 4.1 about creating session
# [23:35] <MikeSmith> ... shoudl that autoatically lauch a browser window?
# [23:36] <MikeSmith> ... or can it connet to an existing window?
# [23:36] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: turns out that connecting to an existing window only can be made to work well in IE
# [23:36] <MikeSmith> [mention that it's possible with Marionette]
# [23:37] <MikeSmith> mdas: you mean browser window or tab?
# [23:37] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: new browser instance
# [23:39] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: new session brings up an independent session
# [23:39] <MikeSmith> mdas: in this case we have someone who wants to connect to a particular tab
# [23:40] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: so they need to know the session id
# [23:40] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: just generate one
# [23:41] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: there is not an existing command but there are ways to do it
# [23:42] <MikeSmith> ... the thing is of course you need to start the browser ahead of time in some session that would allow it
# [23:42] <MikeSmith> [Simon reads from section of spec about generation of session IDs]
# [23:43] <MikeSmith> lukeis: do we not have an invalid-session error?
# [23:43] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: please raise a bug for that
# [23:43] <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: 6.5 Windos
# [23:44] <MikeSmith> ... we need a minimize Window command
# [23:44] * Joins: dannin (~quassel@public.cloak)
# [23:44] <MikeSmith> ... and where does the center fo the window
# [23:44] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: undefined
# [23:44] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: would you like for us to define it?
# [23:45] <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: so yes we would like to be able to test a minimized and then back to maximized
# [23:45] <MikeSmith> action: John to send some spec language for window minimize
# [23:45] * RRSAgent records action 18
# [23:46] <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: what is windowID?
# [23:46] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: unique handle used to refer to the window
# [23:47] <MikeSmith> jimevans: on Windows it assigns a GUID
# [23:47] <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: execute async script
# [23:47] <MikeSmith> ... we're not clear that it'S trying to do that execute script can't
# [23:47] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: avoids the need to do polling
# [23:48] <MikeSmith> ... just have a callback to get executed
# [23:49] <MikeSmith> MarcFisher: allows the JS event quite tcontinue
# [23:50] <MikeSmith> lukeis: we do this in the Selenium source
# [23:51] <MikeSmith> action: Luke to port Seleniium async script test to spec testsuite
# [23:51] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
# [23:51] * RRSAgent records action 19
# [23:51] <MikeSmith> MarcFisher: there's also somethingn used for testing Angular
# [23:52] <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: how does one click on something other than the center of an element?
# [23:52] <MikeSmith> MarcFisher: 14.2.1.1
# [23:52] <MikeSmith> ... takes a webelement and two numbers
# [23:53] <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: modal dialogs
# [23:53] <MikeSmith> ... looks like a lot of stuff has been added
# [23:54] <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: about not needing focus
# [23:54] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: depends on the implementation
# [23:56] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: strawman is you give the credentials at the start of session
# [23:57] <MikeSmith> ... I've not been able to get it work cleanly when I was experimenting
# [23:57] <MikeSmith> ... but we've gone 7 years without it, seems like we can move it to Level 2
# [23:57] <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: getElementText
# [23:58] <MikeSmith> ... does that still point to something nonexistent?
# [23:58] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: yeah you're right
# [23:58] <MikeSmith> ... dagnabbit
# [23:58] <sstewart6> Shoot
# [23:59] <MikeSmith> action: Add definition for getElementText to the appropriate section of spec
# [23:59] * RRSAgent records action 20
# [23:59] <MikeSmith> JohnJansen: can WebDriver find noscript elements?
# [23:59] <MikeSmith> sstewart6: yeah if it's in the DOM
# Session Close: Wed Feb 26 00:00:01 2014

The end :)