/irc-logs / w3c / #testing / 2014-06-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 26 00:00:00 2014
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  53. # [11:22] <jgraham> MikeSmith: The rules are in a lint.whitelist file in tools/scripts
  54. # [11:22] <jgraham> tobie: Yeah, I'll look. I think we don't want to encourage people to add metadata
  55. # [11:22] <tobie> jgraham: ty
  56. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> jgraham: thanks
  57. # [11:23] <tobie> jgraham: opened an issue against testharness.js on the topic, referenced from the above PR.
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  59. # [11:25] <AutomatedTester> so... this brand-color thing is a joke right?
  60. # [11:27] <wilhelm> No. Several vendors already support it under different names. The standardization process must be an elaborate prank, though.
  61. # [11:39] <tobie> Textbook case of why naming is important.
  62. # [11:41] <tobie> The feature in itself is actually quite handy. Allows the dev to hint as to what colors the UA should use to render things (e.g. navbar, etc)
  63. # [11:42] <tobie> BUT THE NAME OF THAT THING!?
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  66. # [11:48] <wilhelm> Also, enough with the meta tags, please.
  67. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> wilhelm: bingo
  68. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> providing rendering instructions to browsers is not what meta is for, at all, to begin with
  69. # [12:00] <wilhelm> It's a symptom of that we're lacking a manifest. But that's another can of worms.
  70. # [12:02] <wilhelm> The duplicated social media metadata is more painful, though.
  71. # [12:04] <darobin> we absolutely need a manifest, and fast
  72. # [12:05] <tobie> well, that's moving along isn't it?
  73. # [12:05] <darobin> I wonder if we shouldn't bring it in using script rather than link though, so that it can be inlined
  74. # [12:05] <darobin> <script type='application/manifest+json'>{ "icon": "foo.png" ...}</script>
  75. # [12:05] <darobin> that would take care of the social media stuff too since much of the time it needs to be specific to the page
  76. # [12:06] <darobin> and if you have multiple manifests, linked or inline, they just get merged
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  79. # [12:18] <wilhelm> darobin: For the site-global settings, something more similar to the favicon.ico or robots.txt convention would be nice. There is a file in /, always with the same name. You don't need another roundtrip for it.
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  81. # [12:21] <darobin> wilhelm: yeah, I always feel ambivalent about those
  82. # [12:21] <darobin> but I could live with it either way
  83. # [12:21] <darobin> you'd have to fetch it before fetching favicon though, I don't know if that has an impact
  84. # [12:23] <wilhelm> I just want to avoid the index.html -> manifest.json -> foo.png steps.
  85. # [12:23] <wilhelm> Loading something from California, that'd be a latency of 200ms * 3 from where I'm now.
  86. # [12:25] <Ms2ger> /.well-known?
  87. # [12:27] <tobie> wilhelm: that's been discussed and abandonned (you don't want to start triggering loads of 404 on existing content).
  88. # [12:30] <darobin> Ms2ger: yeah, does anything real actually use .well-know?
  89. # [12:30] <Ms2ger> Dunno
  90. # [12:30] <darobin> wilhelm: but if your manifest links to your icon then you still have to serialise
  91. # [12:31] <darobin> you don't want to fetch favicon before you've tried the "well-known" manifest, because it might point you elsewhere
  92. # [12:31] <darobin> that only adds to the latency, even if it can be done parallel to the page
  93. # [12:31] <darobin> Ms2ger: I thought it was only crazy stuff like Web Finger :)
  94. # [12:32] <Ms2ger> I thought it was a crazy ietf idea
  95. # [12:32] <Ms2ger> But I'm repeating myself
  96. # [12:33] <darobin> wilhelm: you're mostly working on dev stuff these days, right?
  97. # [12:34] <wilhelm> darobin: Yes. Jumped across the fence. Same work, different angle. (c:
  98. # [12:35] <darobin> wilhelm: I was wondering what's the rate these days for that sort of work?
  99. # [12:36] <jgraham> darobin: W3C not funding your rockstar lifestyle? ;)
  100. # [12:36] <darobin> jgraham: W3C payes well below usual standards consulting rates, that's for sure; but that's not why I'm asking, really
  101. # [12:37] <wilhelm> darobin: It depends. (c:
  102. # [12:37] <darobin> I'm getting really tired of how people in standards feel they have to be dickheads
  103. # [12:37] <darobin> I can be a really good dickhead
  104. # [12:37] <darobin> but it's not very fulfilling
  105. # [12:37] <Ms2ger> I'm sorry
  106. # [12:37] <darobin> wilhelm: for someone who's a pretty damn good developer ;)
  107. # [12:37] <darobin> Ms2ger: ?
  108. # [12:37] <Ms2ger> "people in standards feel they have to be dickheads"
  109. # [12:38] <wilhelm> darobin: For my small team of ex-Operans, the usual rate is about 10.8k NOK per day, plus VAT (25%).
  110. # [12:38] <darobin> Ms2ger: you're a funny dickhead, I wasn't thinking of you :)
  111. # [12:38] <AutomatedTester> J dont feel I have to be a dickhead... I just am
  112. # [12:38] <AutomatedTester> its natural, no trying
  113. # [12:38] <Ms2ger> wilhelm, all guaranteed to work in Opera? :)
  114. # [12:39] <darobin> wilhelm: thanks, that's pretty decent
  115. # [12:39] <darobin> it's the same sort of pay for standards consulting or prototyping
  116. # [12:39] <darobin> AutomatedTester: :)
  117. # [12:39] <wilhelm> darobin: When we're subcontractor on a bigger project, deduct a tithe.
  118. # [12:39] <darobin> wilhelm: yeah, but still
  119. # [12:39] <wilhelm> Ms2ger: Presto? No. :)
  120. # [12:40] * jgraham wonders what the oiunt of all this is
  121. # [12:40] <jgraham> *point
  122. # [12:40] <jgraham> Although oiunt is a great word
  123. # [12:40] * darobin hugs jgraham
  124. # [12:40] <darobin> it is a great word
  125. # [12:40] <darobin> deducting a tithe off an oiunt is something I much cherish
  126. # [12:41] <Ms2ger> wilhelm, I haven't cared for Presto in years :)
  127. # [12:41] <jgraham> So why is consulting pay related to dickheadery?
  128. # [12:43] <wilhelm> jgraham: Most consultants are good at dickheadery.
  129. # [12:43] <darobin> jgraham: did someone say they were related?
  130. # [12:44] <wilhelm> The whole industry is incredibly dodgy.
  131. # [12:44] <jgraham> darobin: Well you were juxtaposing the two. I assumed that had narrative significance
  132. # [12:44] <darobin> jgraham: no, I was simply noting that standards work is related to dickheadery; and wondering what the going rates for dev were today
  133. # [12:45] <darobin> if they are good, and based on what wilhelm says they are, I could just switch back to my first love and go hack some stuff
  134. # [12:45] <wilhelm> darobin: I don't know anything about the rates outside this oil-drugged bubble, though.
  135. # [12:45] <Ms2ger> Would you say standards or consulting are more prone to dickheadery?
  136. # [12:46] <Ms2ger> And how about standards consulting,
  137. # [12:46] <Ms2ger> ?*
  138. # [12:46] <wilhelm> Consulting. By several orders of magnitude.
  139. # [12:46] <jgraham> Yeah, I'm not sure I would convert rates in Norway to rates elsewhere 1:1
  140. # [12:47] <jgraham> Unless it's suddenly started to cost like 20$ in other countries for a burger from a dodgy takeaway
  141. # [12:48] <darobin> sure, I'm asking other people too
  142. # [12:48] <darobin> but I included some adjustments in that price :)
  143. # [12:53] <wilhelm> darobin: The hourly rates seem to be: 400-600 (junior freelances with no business sense), 800-1000 (freelancers), 1100-1450 (bigger agencies). All NOK. Add 25% VAT.
  144. # [12:54] <darobin> wilhelm: yeah, but I don't want charge hourly, it's just too annoying to account properly. I solve most problems while sleeping and my experience is that's not billable :)
  145. # [12:56] <wilhelm> darobin: Yeah, billig per day is fine too. Just multiply by 7.5 or 8, depending on the local regime.
  146. # [12:56] <wilhelm> Most entities give quotes per hour, but bill per day.
  147. # [12:56] <darobin> yeah, hourly doesn't make sense
  148. # [12:56] <darobin> why not by the minute?
  149. # [12:58] <wilhelm> On one of my longest-running projects, I actually bill per minute. From timer started until timer stopped. :D That's an infinite project, though, with a budget of 115 hours per month.
  150. # [13:07] <tobie> or with 6 minute increments, like lawyers. :)
  151. # [13:21] <wilhelm> ... That's a good idea. Billing decimal hours is a pain.
  152. # [13:23] <jgraham> It's very strange. Time isn't fungible and such small periods don't allow averaging.
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  156. # [13:47] <tobie> As a rule of thumb, I never comment on anything to do with lawyers.
  157. # [13:55] <wilhelm> I had a fun prototyping workshop with one lawyer and one judge yesterday. That industry is ripe for a good shakeup.
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  160. # [14:13] <jgraham> I meant the general concept or charging by the X, for small X, noth anything lawyer specific
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  162. # [14:50] <jgraham> Yeah, as of recently trying to access an external URL on our test systems is configured to crash the browser. So it really really doesn't work :)
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  171. # [15:39] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] plehegar opened pull request #1075: Updated editor's draft location for resource timing (master...plh/minor-fix-resource-timing) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1075
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  175. # [15:46] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] plehegar opened pull request #1076: Fixed testharness links in pointerevents (master...plh/pointerevents-links) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1076
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  179. # [16:02] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] dontcallmedom pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/58ae9c84c1ca...df4ed04204de
  180. # [16:02] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master d485f13 Patrik Höglund: Fixing more tests and indentation.
  181. # [16:02] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master df4ed04 Dominique Hazael-Massieux: Merge pull request #1072 from phoglund/master...
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  184. # [16:04] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] plehegar opened pull request #1077: w3c-test.org cleanup in html/dnd (master...plh/html-dnd-links) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1077
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  187. # [16:06] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] plehegar opened pull request #1078: Prevent the use of w3c-test.org in the tests (master...plh/w3ctestorgrule) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1078
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  192. # [16:31] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] jgraham pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/df4ed04204de...760ad1d91143
  193. # [16:31] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 56d5321 plehegar: Fixed testharness links
  194. # [16:31] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 760ad1d jgraham: Merge pull request #1076 from plehegar/plh/pointerevents-links...
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  196. # [16:32] <jgraham> plh++
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  211. # [20:01] <plh> unless someone objects, I'll merge https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1075 (a very minor edit) later today
  212. # [20:02] <Ms2ger> r+
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  214. # [20:02] <plh> thank you!
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  216. # [20:03] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] plehegar closed pull request #1075: Updated editor's draft location for resource timing (master...plh/minor-fix-resource-timing) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1075
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  219. # [20:03] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] plehegar pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/760ad1d91143...7e9339dd8eaf
  220. # [20:03] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 117c50f plehegar: Updated editor's draft location
  221. # [20:03] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 7e9339d Philippe Le Hegaret: Merge pull request #1075 from plehegar/plh/minor-fix-resource-timing...
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The end :)