/irc-logs / w3c / #testing / 2014-10-30 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Oct 30 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #testing
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# [00:05] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] gaoshuotao opened pull request #1325: Add more tests for webdriver cookie operations. (master...cookie) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1325
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# [15:03] * wilhelm changes topic to 'https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2014-TPAC-F2F'
# [15:04] * wilhelm changes topic to 'https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2014-TPAC-F2F - Browser testing & tools WG F2F, room Prospector A.'
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# [15:18] <wilhelm> We're starting at 09:00 today. Feel free to drop by earlier for coffee and gossip.
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# [16:30] <wilhelm> Our room just says "BTT".
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# [16:40] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-testing-irc
# [16:41] <wilhelm> Meeting: Browser Testing & Tools WG, F2F, TPAC 2014
# [16:41] <wilhelm> Chair: wilhelm
# [16:41] * Ms2ger waves
# [16:42] * wilhelm waves back
# [16:42] <wilhelm> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2014-TPAC-F2F
# [16:42] <wilhelm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [16:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-testing-minutes.html wilhelm
# [16:43] <wilhelm> RRSAgent, make logs public
# [16:43] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, wilhelm
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# [16:53] * ArtB thinks every time someone says "we need to add X to the ProcDoc", they should automatically receive a _strong_ electric shock ;-)
# [16:54] <ato> wilhelm: I'm stuck in suburban traffic jam.
# [16:54] * ArtB recalls Tantek said OpenStand.org was `blog worthy` for him. Tantek, is that true? Did that happen?
# [16:54] * Ms2ger adds ArtB to the ProcDoc
# [16:54] <ato> Will be quite late I think.
# [16:54] * ArtB OMG so sorry everyone; definitely wrong channel
# [16:54] * Ms2ger ArtB: not if you test that :)
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# [16:56] * wilhelm ato: OK
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# [16:59] <lukeis> :whobrokeit
# [16:59] <selbot2> simonstewart
# [17:00] <simons_> :yt never going to give you up
# [17:00] <selbot2> Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ&feature=youtube_gdata
# [17:00] <lukeis> #34
# [17:00] <selbot2>
# [17:00] <selbot2> simon.m.stewart open/Accepted Support BASIC and Digest HTTP authentication - https://code.google.com/p/selenium/issues/detail?id=34 [Type-Enhancement Priority-Medium Component-WebDriver ]
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# [17:01] <simons_> Hahahahaha
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# [17:05] * wilhelm : Stop ruining the minutes, children!
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# [17:06] <simonstewart> "Ruining"?
# [17:06] <simonstewart> I beg to differ
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# [17:06] <Ms2ger> s/"Ruining"?//
# [17:06] <Ms2ger> s/I beg to differ//
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# [17:08] <lukeis> PRESENT +LukeInmanSemerau
# [17:08] <jgraham> present +jgraham
# [17:08] <MarcFisher> PRESENT +MarcFisher
# [17:08] <seva> PRESENT +seva
# [17:08] <simonstewart> present +SimonStewart
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# [17:08] <auchenberg> PRESENT +auchenberg
# [17:08] <sam_u> present +SamUong
# [17:08] <AutomatedTester> Present +DavidBurns
# [17:08] <wilhelm> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [17:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-testing-minutes.html wilhelm
# [17:08] <jimevans1> present +jimevans
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# [17:09] <mdas_> I'm somehow logged in with two nicks
# [17:09] <wilhelm> Present+ wilhelm
# [17:09] <mdas_> present +mdas_
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# [17:09] <juangj> present +juangj
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# [17:10] <Ms2ger> s/Hahahahaha//
# [17:10] <Ms2ger> s/:whobrokeit//
# [17:10] <selbot2> simonstewart
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# [17:11] <Ms2ger> s/simonstewart//g
# [17:11] <wilhelm> scribe: mdas_
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# [17:11] <Ms2ger> s/wilhelm: I'm stuck in suburban traffic jam.//
# [17:11] <Ms2ger> s/Will be quite late I think.//
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# [17:11] <Ms2ger> s/:yt never going to give you up//
# [17:11] <selbot2> Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ&feature=youtube_gdata
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# [17:11] * wilhelm :D
# [17:11] <Ms2ger> s$Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ&feature=youtube_gdata$$g
# [17:11] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [17:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-testing-minutes.html Ms2ger
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# [17:13] <Ms2ger> s|Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ&feature=youtube_gdata||g
# [17:13] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [17:13] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-testing-minutes.html Ms2ger
# [17:13] <Ms2ger> s/s$$$g//
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# [17:13] <Ms2ger> s/I'm somehow logged in with two nicks//
# [17:14] <jgraham> s/.*//
# [17:14] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [17:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-testing-minutes.html Ms2ger
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# [17:17] <mdas> scribe: mdas_
# [17:17] <mdas> AutomatedTester: The current state of the spec is turning it into a spec instead of a story
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# [17:18] <mdas> AutomatedTester: we're not missing many API calls, just a trivial handful, and we have action items from previous meetings we need to verify as done
# [17:19] <mdas> wilhelm: We have 85 open issues, which should we discuss?
# [17:19] <mdas> wilhelm: any that aren't listed?
# [17:19] <simonstewart> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20860
# [17:19] <mdas> simonstewart: some bugs are level 2 and don't need to be addressed
# [17:20] <mdas> jgraham: if you try to implement the current spec, what you send over the wire is unclear
# [17:20] <mdas> jgraham: I think there's work needed there to pin down what should be sent over the wire
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# [17:20] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger opened pull request #1326: Extend the Node#cloneNode test. (master...clone-prefix) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1326
# [17:20] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [17:20] <mdas> ato: we also need to figure out some details of the schema and how to define these things, we previously concluded that webIDL was not appropriate
# [17:20] <mdas> ato: we need to figure out what is appropriate that is less cumbersome
# [17:21] <mdas> sam_u: We need to discuss screenshots
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# [17:22] <ato> sam_u: About the agenda topic Data Model: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-browser-tools-testing/2014OctDec/0021.html
# [17:23] <mdas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [17:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-testing-minutes.html mdas
# [17:23] <wilhelm> Scribe: mdaas
# [17:23] <mdas> Scribe: mdas
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# [17:23] <lukeis1> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [17:23] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-testing-minutes.html lukeis1
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# [17:24] <mdas> mdas: we need to clarify some parts of the touch spec
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# [17:26] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger opened pull request #1327: Extend the Element#tagName test. (master...tagName) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1327
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# [17:28] <mdas> topic: auchenberg discussing developer tools
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# [17:29] * Ms2ger looks for plh
# [17:29] * plh wakes up
# [17:29] <wilhelm> http://www.w3.org/2011/08/browser-testing-charter.html
# [17:29] * Ms2ger plh: r??? ;)
# [17:30] <ato> lukeis1: https://twitter.com/sarah11918/status/526827265813123074
# [17:30] <mdas> wilhelm: http://www.w3.org/2011/08/browser-testing-charter.html chapter 1-2 says we can explore overlapping interests in other WGs
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# [17:30] <mdas> auchenberg: a few years ago we started RemoteDebug, which unifies interfaces to browsers
# [17:30] * lukeis mutters about our crappy wifi...
# [17:30] * plh unlikely that I will have the time this week :(
# [17:30] * plh but, those are DOM tests
# [17:30] * Ms2ger HTML too!
# [17:31] <mdas> auchenberg: fixing the gap between the editor and the browser, and remote debug tool bridges that gap. Chrome has their own, Opera has their own, Mozilla has their own...
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# [17:31] <mdas> auchenberg: we want to achieve a unified interface for browsers
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# [17:31] * plh well, I'm interested in DOM failures this friday
# [17:32] <mdas> auchenberg: we wanted to use the existing chrome remote debug protocol to start standardizing on
# [17:32] * plh will talk with darobin and this can be done
# [17:32] * Ms2ger I'm always interested in them :)
# [17:32] <darobin_> so, which browsers need updates in the DOM testing?
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# [17:33] * plh as I am, it's just that the day is only 24 hours long :)
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# [17:34] * plh darobin, all of them
# [17:34] <darobin> ok
# [17:34] <mdas> auchenberg: status of remote debug: Node Inspector is being reused across platforms, and Microsoft demoed remote debugging
# [17:34] * dom never fails
# [17:34] <Ms2ger> s/so, which browsers need updates in the DOM testing?//
# [17:34] <Ms2ger> s/ok//
# [17:34] * plh and some of the pending PRs might be highly interesting
# [17:34] * darobin oh, hadn't realised there was a meeting going on — sorry!
# [17:34] * Ms2ger would appreciate reviews from dom too :)
# [17:34] * darobin runs Firefox tests
# [17:34] * dom should have kept his mouth shut :)
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# [17:35] * Ms2ger cackles
# [17:35] <mdas> auchenberg: editors are adding devtools, and discusses other implementors
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# [17:38] <mdas> auchenberg: what's next? start using remote debugging tools and map out the differences between them before unification
# [17:40] <mdas> auchenberg: is there room for this concern in this WG?
# [17:41] * darobin can't seem to get the tests running right :(
# [17:41] <mdas> AutomatedTester: I really like is how we communicate from teh local to remote end using HTTP endpoint, Mozilla's implementation is based off remote debugger, so that level of communication would be great if standardized
# [17:41] <mdas> AutomatedTester: the other parts of what WebDriver does seems out of scope for remotedebugger
# [17:42] <mdas> jgraham: does anyone work on browser devtools?
# [17:42] <mdas> JohnJansen is the only one to raise his hand :)
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# [17:42] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] dannin opened pull request #1328: Add blackberry driver (master...master) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1328
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# [17:42] <mdas> jgraham: we don't have many people who work on it so this may not be the right group
# [17:43] <mdas> jgraham: people may not be interested in standardizing something they don't know about/charter does not cover
# [17:45] <mdas> auchenberg: we want to iterate on two separate issues: protocol and the API. tooling vendors are interested in using remote debugging but roll their own thing. They don't have the time to implement one protocol for each browser and don't have control over how the browser changes so they have to play catch up
# [17:46] <mdas> auchenberg: maybe we can build in some stability into the protocol to enable browser agility (so they can make changes), but we need to get the conversation started
# [17:47] <ato> jgraham: You said exactly what I was going to say (-:
# [17:47] <mdas> jgraham: I think devtools has been an area where browsers competed against each other. You need to make the case that interoperability is more valuable.
# [17:49] <mdas> discussion about competing browsers' devtools to compel users to use the browser
# [17:49] <mdas> AutomatedTester: we should unify on the communication across browsers.
# [17:49] <mdas> auchenberg: yes, agreed. How people innovate on top of that is up to them
# [17:50] <mdas> auchenberg: is there room in this charter for this concern?
# [17:51] <mdas> simonstewart: start a community group?
# [17:51] <mdas> auchenberg: can it be joined under this charter or is it out of scope?
# [17:52] <mdas> simonstewart and ato: first you need to get a community and find a shared goal to unify and evolve from there
# [17:53] * Ms2ger notes Servo can use Fx's devtools
# [17:54] <mdas> AutomatedTester recommends writing a strawman and discusses its benefits
# [17:54] * lukeis ios-driver / appium use the WebKit remote debugging protocol for automating MobileSafari
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# [18:23] <mdas> topic: new process discussion
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# [18:23] <mdas> MikeSmith: Trying to spec publishing better, for webdriver, we can adopt the new process if we want
# [18:24] <mdas> MikeSmith explains a very hand-wavy old process and hand-wavy new process
# [18:24] <mdas> MikeSmith mentions 'agile'
# [18:24] <mdas> wilhelm: the biggest issue is diconnect between TR and the Editor's draft
# [18:24] <mdas> s/diconnect/disconnect
# [18:25] <mdas> wilhelm: how can we move from here? kill the TR bit or put Editor's draft there?
# [18:25] <mdas> MikeSmith: we have flexibility there, I will figure out what we have to do but we should be able to change it to reflect what we want them to implement now
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# [18:27] <mdas> MikeSmith: updating TR takes too long and would be out of date, so we tell people not to read the TR. we want to change this so implementors won't be confused
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# [18:28] * Ms2ger notes that would be easily solved by not ever publishing to TR
# [18:28] <mdas> JohnJansen: the TR will still exist with the new process but it will be easy
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# [18:28] <mdas> quick vote to see who is for/against
# [18:28] <mdas> everyone is in favour
# [18:29] <mdas> resolution: adopt new process
# [18:29] * Ms2ger Good... I was about to threaten violence :)
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# [18:30] <mdas> topic: Discuss moving decisions to mailing list
# [18:31] <mdas> AutomatedTester: we should move discussion to mailing list since we only meet every 6 months or so
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# [18:32] <mdas> AutomatedTester: we would get more engagement from community
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# [18:33] <mdas> seva: do we need a voting process in the list?
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# [18:33] <mdas> jgraham: the way it 'works' in other WGs is if people seem to be reaching agreement, you don't need a vote, you reach consensus
# [18:35] <mdas> simonstewart: we can try it!
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# [18:36] <mdas> AutomatedTester: it would be valuable to get more community members' voices heard outside of bugs
# [18:36] * Ms2ger mailing lists are a support forum
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# [18:36] <mdas> lukeis: no response is tacit agreement?
# [18:36] <MikeSmith> +1 to not voting and to lazy consensus and to, if/when more formal decisions are needed, moving such decision-making to mailing list
# [18:36] <mdas> JohnJansen: yes would work that way
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# [18:37] <mdas> resolution: we will use mailing list
# [18:38] <wilhelm> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-browser-tools-testing/
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# [18:39] <mdas> topic: data model
# [18:39] <ato> Context: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26147
# [18:39] <mdas> jgraham: the context is that I've been trying to implement the current spec to make a proxy between the protocol and marionette (mozilla webdriver implementation)
# [18:39] <ato> Uh, wrong link.
# [18:39] <mdas> jgraham: at the moment, the spec is not implementable
# [18:39] <ato> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-browser-tools-testing/2014OctDec/0021.html
# [18:40] <mdas> jgraham: there are a lot of things missing, and some things that are there don't make sense
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# [18:40] <mdas> jgraham: it should be a goal of this meeting to really nail this stuff down
# [18:40] <mdas> ato: it's also very difficult to write down the algorithms without the data model in place
# [18:41] <mdas> ato: all the current command algorithsm don't say anything of the return/response values, http response codes, which headers should be sent, etc...
# [18:41] <mdas> s/algorithsm/algorithms
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# [18:42] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
# [18:42] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-testing-minutes.html Ms2ger
# [18:42] <mdas> ato: we can start working from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-browser-tools-testing/2014OctDec/0021.html
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# [18:43] <mdas> jgraham: I don't think we need to decide spec text, but we need to decide how we want to represent our spec (ie: what to use instead of webIDL)
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# [18:43] <mdas> jgraham: how about section 2?
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# [18:43] <simonstewart> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html#commands-and-responses
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# [18:45] <mdas> jgraham: webIDL is used here, but we're sending HTTP requests with json in the body and the webDIL to json is undefined
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# [18:45] <mdas> jgraham: the spec should be clear that you don't send body with GET requests
# [18:45] <mdas> action: clarify that you don't send body with GET requests
# [18:45] * RRSAgent records action 1
# [18:45] * darobin jgraham: I'm getting trouble running serve.py; in https://gist.github.com/darobin/fe0b25ceec69cbbd9a22 the second file is what I get at start-up, the first what I then get trying to run the runner
# [18:46] <mdas> jgraham: name and session ID for reqs that take body is pointless since they are in the path and you can't send it in GET, so we should pare it down just to parameters
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# [18:46] <seva> http://www.w3.org/2014/07/07-testing-minutes.html
# [18:46] <ato> JohnJansen: http://sny.no/bttmin
# [18:47] <wilhelm> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver#Minutes_from_meetings
# [18:47] <mdas> action: make the body of the requests just the parameters object and nothing else
# [18:47] * RRSAgent records action 2
# [18:47] <mdas> jgraham: empty json object if no parameters?
# [18:47] <mdas> simonstewart: yes
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# [18:47] <mdas> action: clarify how to send no parameters
# [18:47] * RRSAgent records action 3
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# [18:49] <mdas> simonstewart: how about if we want to add implicit parameters?
# [18:49] <mdas> jgraham: doesn't matter for GET
# [18:50] <mdas> simonstewart: perhaps using headers or querystring then
# [18:50] <mdas> simonstewart: path matching and query string
# [18:50] <mdas> ato: there is a limit to the length you can send over the wire
# [18:51] <mdas> ato: we can refer to url spec since there may be intermediaries that don't respect the spec
# [18:51] <mdas> simonstewart: that's a problem for those intermediaries if they don't follow spec
# [18:52] <mdas> s/we can refer/we can't refer
# [18:52] <mdas> seva: the advantage of shoving parameters in querystring is that it works with GET?
# [18:52] <mdas> simonstewart: yes.
# [18:53] <mdas> jgraham: there is asymmetry between req and resp, since response has no query string
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# [18:55] <mdas> mkwst___: we should move to POST, why have them split up?
# [18:55] <mdas> simonstewart: we use the different kinds of reqs so we can redirect them appropriately
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# [18:56] <mdas> simonstewart: our API is REST-ish, and the req types adds clarity
# [18:57] <mdas> jgraham: I see both sides of this, superficially, thes pec looks nice and looks RESTful, but not quite
# [18:57] <mdas> simonstewart: that's why it's REST-ish
# [18:57] <mdas> jgraham: it's easier to implement if everything is a POST and has a body, but I also agree that it looks like a nicer API as REST-ish
# [18:58] <mdas> simonstewart: I want to avoid breaking all existing implementations. Changing to POST is a massive breaking change
# [18:58] <mdas> ato: also I think if you examine existing implementations, most of them are utilizing the JSON object, so I'm not sure if it will be such a performance problem not to do only POSTS
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# [18:59] <mdas> s/mkwst___/MarcFisher
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# [19:00] <mdas> simonstewart: the command object allows you to specify any fields in the dictionary, how can we preserve the capability of adding additional metadata? We used the HTTP verbs and json blobs
# [19:00] <mdas> ato: can we send params through headers?
# [19:01] <mdas> jgraham: if your'e doing this, sending through headers feels HTTPish but feels like a terrible idea
# [19:01] <Ms2ger> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
# [19:01] <RRSAgent> ok, Ms2ger; I will not start a new log at midnight
# [19:01] * wilhelm : Thanks. (c:
# [19:01] * Ms2ger thanks timeless
# [19:02] <mdas> simonstewart: we can leave additional data and metadata to headers to Level 2
# [19:02] * timeless you're welcome Ms2ger
# [19:02] * timeless btw, were you present?
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# [19:03] <mdas> ato: we should specify if the intermediary can change the data it's passing
# [19:03] * Ms2ger is not
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# [19:04] <mdas> MarcFisher: say IE doesn't support xpath, we can build an intermediate node which would see XPATH and translate it to somethine IE could understand
# [19:04] <mdas> MarcFisher: so there is value in changing the data
# [19:05] * Ms2ger is reminded of conneg, shudders
# [19:05] <mdas> simonstewart: proxy/shims do this
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# [19:06] <mdas> jgraham: I don't think you have to say anything, the proxy implements both sides of the spec (local and remote ends)
# [19:06] <mdas> MarcFisher: yeah we shouldn't really address intermediate nodes in the spec
# [19:07] <mdas> jgraham: agree
# [19:07] <mdas> simonstewart: I'm happy to take that language out
# [19:07] <mdas> ato: we mentioned it first just to show it is possible
# [19:08] <mdas> jgraham: i think it's fine to say it exists, but we don't need to define it
# [19:08] <mdas> ato: we have a previous decision to add a section of uses of webdriver, so we should add it there
# [19:09] <mdas> action: ato to add intermediate nodes as an example use case
# [19:09] * RRSAgent records action 4
# [19:10] <mdas> ato: how do we standardize on json presentation?
# [19:10] <mdas> jgraham: there are multiple 'standards'
# [19:10] <mdas> ato: TC39? ecmascript one?
# [19:10] <mdas> action: ato ask Anne if TC39 should be used
# [19:10] * RRSAgent records action 5
# [19:11] * Ms2ger thinks ecmascript one sounds like an airplane
# [19:11] <mdas> jgraham: are we assuming the path in the request is an absolute path, or is it just random prefixes?
# [19:11] <mdas> AutomatedTester: I remember raising a bug, you can put anything in front if it, and hope the vendor supports it
# [19:11] <mdas> simonstewart: you can host it on any server you ahve, it's relative to the base path of the server used
# [19:11] <mdas> s/ahve/have
# [19:12] <mdas> jgraham: for every connection, you need to know the base path
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# [19:12] <mdas> MarcFisher: yes that's always going to be the case, you need to know the address and port your'e connecting to. Adding more segments to that seem trivial
# [19:13] <mdas> ato: selenium,chrome and maybe firefox uses different urls
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# [19:13] * timeless Ms2ger i was bitten by spanning midnight for the w3c20 thing yesterday
# [19:13] * timeless GRR
# [19:13] * timeless (ironic given that i did it for a whole bunch of groups monday/tuesday)
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# [19:14] <mdas> jgraham: by hosting webdriver url on a host that has other endpoints, it seems worrying
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# [19:15] <mdas> simonstewart: ultimately it's a webapp that controls the browser
# [19:15] <mdas> simonstewart: it's up to you where you want to host that webapp
# [19:16] <mdas> jgraham: we don't want to encourage incorrect setups
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# [19:16] <mdas> simonstewart: we don't want to prevent users from setting it up the way they want
# [19:18] <mdas> jgraham: that's fine, it should just be clear in the spec
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# [19:20] <mdas> action: add recommendations in the spec about per server path prefix
# [19:20] * RRSAgent records action 6
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# [19:20] <mdas> topic: responses
# [19:22] <mdas> ato: AutomatedTester proposed return value from new session command will have value set to dictionary with SessionId and Capabilities
# [19:22] <mdas> AutomatedTester: should we get rid of status?
# [19:22] <mdas> jgraham: no status makes sense
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# [19:22] <mdas> jgraham: can have more more info in status field than code
# [19:22] <mdas> s/field than code/field than status code
# [19:22] <simonstewart> https://code.google.com/p/selenium/wiki/JsonWireProtocol#Response_Status_Codes
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# [19:23] * lukeis1 JohnJansen it's not code… but be careful about any links you click :)
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# [19:23] <mdas> simonstewart: json wire protocol (https://code.google.com/p/selenium/wiki/JsonWireProtocol#Response_Status_Codes), there is an attempt to use HTTP status code the way it should be used
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# [19:23] <mdas> ato: I don't think this is good
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# [19:24] <mdas> discussion about status field vs status code
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# [19:25] <mdas> simonstewart: not finding an element is interesting. One status code, but two different status fields, either "I didn't find an element" or "malfolmed selector"
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# [19:25] <mdas> simonstewart: status code is used to know success/fail, and field is used for throwing to user
# [19:26] <mdas> jimevans: the value for failed commands if defined such that the the 'value' value of the object should contain the message
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# [19:27] <mdas> simonstewart: are we saying that we always return 200 for success, and use codes for problem, and we get rid of the value field and use the body
# [19:27] <mdas> MarcFisher: two mandatory fields: type and message
# [19:28] <mdas> ato: any non 200 code should be error?
# [19:28] <mdas> simonstewart: 302 is redirect
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# [19:28] <mdas> jgraham: there's HTTP level stuff and webdriver level stuff on top
# [19:29] <mdas> jgraham: at the http level, if you get a redirect, then you should follow the reidrect and make a new req
# [19:29] <mdas> jgraham: you should do what http says to do
# [19:29] <mdas> simonstewart: new session used to redirect to new sessionid
# [19:29] <mdas> simonstewart: we simplified that
# [19:30] <mdas> ato: so we should have status codes for each status defined in the spec?
# [19:30] <mdas> MarcFisher: we should define what the local end should do with that status code
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# [19:32] <mdas> simonstewart: I think what JSON wire protocol does is enough
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# [19:33] <mdas> jgraham: for each error, we define the status code and on receiving that code we shoudl define how it should be handled
# [19:33] <mdas> simonstewart: I think we can just say this in a preamble, not for each
# [19:33] <mdas> simonstewart: like, 'oh i got a 501' well you should get an error code with the message. if you don't, do some default
# [19:34] <mdas> jgraham: I think I agree
# [19:34] <mdas> jgraham: in section 2.4 there's a list, each item in taht list should ahve an http status code to it
# [19:34] <mdas> simonstewart: I think it should be 501 for almost all of them
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# [19:35] <erabonza> http status codes: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec6.html#sec6
# [19:35] <mdas> jgraham: if found elements are in the url, then we send 404 for unfound elements
# [19:35] <Yves> nah, it's at http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6
# [19:35] <mdas> AutomatedTester: what about stal eelements?
# [19:36] <mdas> wilhelm: It's error code 410
# [19:36] <mdas> jgraham: right, so we need to decide what the codes are for each error
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# [19:36] <mdas> simonstewart: yes, and if we get a non 200/300 code, we consider an error
# [19:36] <mdas> action: assign status code to each error
# [19:36] * RRSAgent records action 7
# [19:36] <Yves> and of course https://www.iana.org/assignments/http-status-codes/http-status-codes.xhtml
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# [19:38] <mdas> action: explicitly specify that webdriver implementation is expected to own all paths under its prefix?
# [19:38] * RRSAgent records action 8
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# [19:39] <mdas> s/under its prefix?/under its prefix
# [19:39] <mdas> ato: how do you handle a paramater that is wrong? a wrong type for example?
# [19:39] <mdas> simonstewart: server error?
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# [19:39] <mdas> MarcFisher: we have error code for illegal argument
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# [19:40] <mdas> ato: we shoudl generalize so all command objects should be handled with these pre-steps, then algorithm, then serialization definition.
# [19:40] <mdas> jgraham: yes, if a remote end gets a request, it should run these steps, if there's an error, produce X response, otherwise handle response and serialize it and push out
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# [19:41] <mdas> action: ato to define the pre-steps, error handling, algorithm and serialization definition for all cases in general
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# [19:42] <mdas> topic: headers
# [19:42] <mdas> simonstewart: we should do cache control ones
# [19:43] <mdas> jgraham: agreed. Did we agree that everything int eh spec should be under cache-control or whatever the header is?
# [19:43] <mdas> simonstewart: yes.
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# [19:43] <Yves> if you need http-related stuff reviewed, please ask me
# [19:44] <mdas> ato: what about metadata headers? if a proxy modifies a value
# [19:44] <mdas> jgraham: I think we will leave that for now
# [19:44] <mdas> jgraham: we need to define what *has* to be sent in the headers
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# [19:45] <mdas> jgraham: and let additional headers be sent
# [19:45] <mdas> ato: which headers do we want to enforce?
# [19:45] <mdas> jgraham: content-type, cache-control
# [19:45] * wilhelm : Yves, thanks! We're making those bits explicit now. A review when that decision is turned into prose would be great.
# [19:46] <Yves> perfect!
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# [19:47] <mdas> action: specify which headers we expect: cache-control and content-type
# [19:47] * RRSAgent records action 10
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# [19:51] <mdas> resolution: remove response body and just send back dictionary
# [19:52] <mdas> ato: what do we do to send back a primitive?
# [19:52] <mdas> simonstewart: use 'value' key
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# [19:52] <mdas> resolution: use 'value' key for primitives
# [19:53] <mdas> simonstewart: are we happy with the way we encode elements?
# [19:53] <mdas> simonstewart: we currently use ELEMENT
# [19:53] <mdas> simonstewart: how to differentiate a webelement or a dictionary of elements?
# [19:53] <mdas> jimevans: in previous version of spec, 'element' was mapped to id, which was problematic
# [19:54] <mdas> ato: seems liek circular problem, not sure how to guard against this
# [19:54] <mdas> jgraham: the right way is to when you createa a session, it sends back the key you have to use for the element
# [19:54] <mdas> simonstewart: why not use the same guid?
# [19:55] <mdas> simonstewart: so you're saying "here's a random string", why don't we generate that guid now, and be done with it?
# [19:55] <mdas> jgraham: that works
# [19:55] <mdas> simonstewart: are we happy with 'ELEMENT' being that key?
# [19:55] <mdas> jgraham: that's nto a guid, it's human readable string
# [19:56] <mdas> jgraham: that way no human generated key will try to use that key
# [19:56] <mdas> s/that way no human generated/using a guid means no human generated
# [19:56] <jgraham> 7bf8701e-6066-11e4-a52e-4f735466cecf
# [19:57] <mdas> simonstewart: but we can pick any 36 characters we want
# [19:57] <mdas> simonstewart: why not use human readable one if it has equal chance of being generated?
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# [19:58] <mdas> jgraham: entropy affects it
# [19:58] <mdas> jgraham: there is no advantage to having human readable strings
# [19:58] <mdas> jgraham: I have been manually typing this, i would happily deal with the fact that it's a 36char string
# [19:59] <mdas> seva: how about some human readable part?
# [19:59] <ato> ELEMENT-7bf8701e-6066-11e4-a52e-4f735466cecf
# [20:00] <jgraham> I think the conclusion was element-6066-11e4-a52e-4f735466cecf
# [20:00] <mdas> resolution: use ELEMENT-6066-11e4-a52e-4f735466cecf instead of 'ELEMENT'
# [20:00] <mdas> s/ELEMENT-6066-11e4-a52e-4f735466cecf/element-6066-11e4-a52e-4f735466cecf
# [20:00] <JohnJansen> agree
# [20:00] <mdas> now everyone is happy.
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# [20:29] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger opened pull request #1329: Add some attributes tests. (master...attributes) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1329
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# [20:36] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger, 'Attr.ownerElement' is deprecated and has been removed from DOM4 (http://w3.org/tr/dom).
# [20:36] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, lolwat
# [20:36] <MikeSmith> heh
# [20:37] <Ms2ger> I guess it well might still be removed from tr/dom
# [20:40] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, a thought for future f2f meetings... Put "review wpt PRs" on the agenda
# [20:40] <MikeSmith> we still can do that
# [20:41] <MikeSmith> for the webdriver meeting, you mean?
# [20:41] <MikeSmith> oh
# [20:41] <MikeSmith> yeah, should have done for webapps I guess
# [20:41] <Ms2ger> Well, I want people to review my tests :)
# [20:42] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [20:42] <Ms2ger> Not sure if this room is particularly well-suited for that
# [20:42] <Ms2ger> Excluding present company, of course
# [20:42] <MikeSmith> well, on that note, for that "Non-HTML element with upper-case attribute" test it would be nice to know which of those assertions is/are failing
# [20:42] <MikeSmith> is it odd for me to expect that?
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# [20:45] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, no, you're right
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# [20:45] <MikeSmith> also I'm surprised how many of these tests fail in webkit
# [20:45] * Ms2ger fixes
# [20:45] <Ms2ger> Ha
# [20:45] <Ms2ger> Well, Servo crashes, so there's that
# [20:46] <MikeSmith> and wondering why webkit fails 8 of them and blink only fails 4
# [20:46] <MikeSmith> heh
# [20:46] * MikeSmith tries it in Servo himself
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# [20:47] <MikeSmith> sadly for me it just times out
# [20:47] <MikeSmith> ERROR:js::rust: Error at http://web-platform.test:8000/resources/testharness.js:1842: TypeError: w is undefined
# [20:48] <Ms2ger> Yeah, you need our th.js fork
# [20:48] <MikeSmith> but I'm running a build from probably two weeks ago or longer
# [20:48] <MikeSmith> ah OK
# [20:48] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I think we have tried putting testing on the agenda before and basically the room emptied
# [20:49] <MikeSmith> yeah I seem to remember that phenomenon as well
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# [20:49] <jgraham> Turns out that there are lots of people who like having "deep thoughts" but don't like doing actual work
# [20:49] <Ms2ger> Ha
# [20:49] <jgraham> At least during f2f meetings
# [20:49] * MikeSmith thinks about that deeply right now
# [20:49] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, your assertion messages have arrived :)
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# [20:50] * MikeSmith (re)pulls pr/1329
# [20:50] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: thanks will review it on critic now
# [20:51] <MikeSmith> btw do you guys do the thing of pulling the pr/NNNN branches?
# [20:52] <Ms2ger> Occasionally
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# [20:52] <MikeSmith> OK I'm just wondering what the proper way to do it with get when fetching the subsequent commits
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# [20:54] <Ms2ger> git fetch origin; git merge --ff-only origin/pr/foo?
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# [21:04] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: yeah that's basically what I do
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# [21:10] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] sideshowbarker closed pull request #1329: Add some attributes tests. (master...attributes) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1329
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# [21:10] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] sideshowbarker pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/bea430c61dc7...710be6f97d3e
# [21:10] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 887cb97 Ms2ger: Add some attributes tests.
# [21:10] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master d4569c7 Ms2ger: Add messages.
# [21:10] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 710be6f Michael[tm] Smith: Merge pull request #1329 from Ms2ger/attributes...
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# [21:12] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, so, while I have you around... ;)
# [21:14] <astearns> Ms2ger: give him a few minutes - he just set his laptop down and closed his eyes for a bit
# [21:14] <Ms2ger> Ah
# [21:14] <Ms2ger> astearns, in that case, want to do some reviews?
# [21:15] * astearns hides
# [21:15] <Ms2ger> Dammit astearns!
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# [21:24] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Apparently everyone was out partying last night, so trying to get useful work out of them today might be hard
# [21:25] <Ms2ger> I assume not the kind of partying Hixie would do?
# [21:25] <Ms2ger> (As in, drink water and blog about HTML parsing)
# [21:28] <jgraham> I don't think it was that kind of party, sadly
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# [21:59] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] mbrubeck closed pull request #1319: fix pointer types detection placement (master...submission/Microsoft/PointerEvents-FixPointerTypesDetectionPlacement) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1319
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# [21:59] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] mbrubeck pushed 8 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/710be6f97d3e...f9c7b19be305
# [21:59] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 5534d32 Evgeny Agafonchikov: Fix placement of detected_pointertypes update...
# [21:59] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master d53e544 Evgeny Agafonchikov: Fix placement of detected_pointertypes update...
# [21:59] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master b6ab2da Evgeny Agafonchikov: Add missing code for detecting of pointer types
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# [22:07] <wilhelm> Scribe: seva
# [22:07] <seva> scribe: seva
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# [22:11] <seva> topic: how to accelerate specking progress
# [22:12] <seva> simonstewart: proposes to try to set aside dedicated time for spec work
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# [22:13] <seva> AutomatedTester: can easier justify dedicated time lately better than before
# [22:14] <seva> AutomatedTester: should be easy to do, at least before the end of Q1 2015
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# [22:15] <seva> everyone looks happy
# [22:16] * Ms2ger looks skeptical
# [22:16] <seva> simonstewart: there are very few points of contention left
# [22:16] * Ms2ger denis r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/3022
# [22:18] <seva> action: Simon and David to setup dedicated time
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# [22:18] * denis Ms2ger, I'll take a look in a bit
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# [22:18] <seva> topic: Having capabilities be required when passed i
# [22:19] * Ms2ger denis: thanks (your test ;))
# [22:19] <seva> AutomatedTester: there's been a lot of cases when desired capabilities passed are in fact required
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# [22:20] <seva> simonstewart: no, they are often in fact desired. you don't get everything you desire for. sometimes results are unexpected for the users, yes
# [22:21] <seva> simonstewart: desired capabilities were designed when .. it was actually fine for the user to get something similar to what they asked for
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# [22:21] <seva> simonstewart: there's still a need for desired: I want Firefox 33. but there's only 34 available. 34 is fine
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# [22:22] <seva> AutomatedTester: making one extra trip to the remote end to confirm what was asked for earlier looks wrong
# [22:23] <seva> simonstewart: no, that's fine. highly concurrent systems do that
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# [22:24] <seva> simonstewart: before there were not required capabilities, just desired
# [22:24] <seva> simonstewart: one doesn't need to use desired capabilities. if everything is required, use required
# [22:24] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: was sleeping and eating. you were pinging me about a review? Or Denis is doing it?
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# [22:25] <denis> MikeSmith, I'll take care of https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/3022
# [22:25] <seva> ato: David started the discussion in the mailing list, but only a few people took part
# [22:25] <MikeSmith> de
# [22:26] * Ms2ger MikeSmith yeah, denis's doing one of them ;)
# [22:26] <seva> simonstewart: i want to be able to checj out 6 month old tests that hard code Firefox version 30 and run the tests
# [22:26] * Ms2ger MikeSmith also feel free to offload to anyone else :)
# [22:27] <seva> simonstewart: people sometimes overpopulate the caoabilities; use both desired and required browserName. and that works because of the fuzzy matching
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# [22:28] <seva> ato: getting back Firefox when you asked for a different browser - seems unnatural
# [22:28] <seva> simonstewart: then require Firefox
# [22:28] <seva> simonstewart: you can also ask for either Firefox or Crome
# [22:29] <seva> Chrome
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# [22:30] <seva> simonstewart: we should first match on browserName. then on platform. then maybe browserVersion
# [22:31] <seva> lukeis: with Grid, there's resource allocation aspect. you need to know/fix the platform first ?
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# [22:32] <seva> simonstewart: a shim (chromedriver, iedriverserver, etc) can know what version of the browser is installed without starting the browser
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# [22:32] <seva> simonstewart: other than Java, language bindings don't have required caoabilities - just desired.
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# [22:33] <seva> simonstewart: people could check what they get after they got the session started; they don't
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# [22:35] <seva> lukeis: discussing some aspects of language bindings and disired/required capabilities...
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# [22:36] <seva> scribe: both desire and required caps stay. language bindings will add features to make those easier to use..
# [22:37] <seva> scribe: seva
# [22:37] <seva> resoution: both desire and required caps stay. language bindings will add features to make those easier to use..
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# [22:38] <seva> AutomatedTester: if we keep both I would like proxy capability to always be required
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# [22:40] <seva> MarkFisher: actual capabilities that are returned by the driver should return proxy if it's set
# [22:41] <seva> lukeis: proxy is not returned, in fact, in the oss implementation
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# [22:41] <seva> MarkFisher: it should, according to the spec, right?
# [22:41] <seva> MarcFisher: it should, according to the spec, right?
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# [22:43] <seva> MarcFisher: there can be multiple ways to match a subset of a set of desired capabilities
# [22:44] <seva> MarcFisher: the best way to specify what the driver should prefer - not specify that
# [22:44] <seva> simonstewart: disagrees. says we can mandate certain preferences
# [22:45] <seva> MarcFisher: I don't think spec should be more prescriptive that it is now. it suggest, non-normative, that certain standard caps should be considered more important
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# [22:47] <seva> jgraham: desired caps are an attempt to reduce allowed non-deterministic behavior
# [22:49] <seva> MarcFisher: I believe one things is worth including. for every desired cap, the actual capabilities returned MUST have some indication
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# [22:51] <seva> lukeis: there are some common capabilities that are returned by the oss project. we should list them in the spec so that vendors can implement them
# [22:51] <seva> MarcFisher: it is counter productive to try to mandate a list of caps that MUST be returned
# [22:51] <seva> MarcFisher: the list will be growing all the time
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# [22:55] <seva> simonstewart: if a user sets a desired capability, then in the returned set of caps there MUST be a capability with that key and a value that indicates what has been done there
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# [22:57] <seva> simonstewart: is the user also specifies a required cap. then the returned set f caps is a union of hte two sets (desired and required)
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# [22:58] <seva> JohnJansen: why return the required caps? user knows them because they requested them
# [22:59] <seva> ato: let's discuss the nested objects/arrays in the capabilities
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# [22:59] <seva> ato: Chrome uses chrome: {}
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# [23:00] <seva> AutomatedTester: proxy is already proxy: {...}
# [23:00] <seva> sam_u: we have a couple of use cases for that
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# [23:02] <seva> sam_u: why not have them?
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# [23:06] <seva> resolution: yes. support an arbitrary json object for capabilities object
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# [23:08] <seva> jgraham: you can now use null as a value indicating ... something was not set?
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# [23:10] <seva> simonstewart: for a desired capability that was requested but wasn;t set, the remote end MUST return either 1) the other value it was set to or 2) null (if it was not set) 3) {} if it was set (but requested not to)
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# [23:11] <simonstewart> For every capability defined in the spec, we should return the current value in the session. For capabilities not defined in the spec, remote end implementors can choose to either return the current value, or "null" if not set or the empty object ({}) if set.
# [23:12] <simonstewart> The returned capabilities for a session is a dictionary containing keys for every requested desired and required capability (value set as above) plus (optionally) extra information
# [23:12] <seva> resolution: ^
# [23:14] <seva> willhelm: do we not have anything non-deterministic left in the spec?
# [23:14] <seva> ato: yes we have that left, thats the point of desired capabilities
# [23:14] <seva> willhelm: then we should say "do whatever"
# [23:15] <seva> MArcFisher: we do
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# [23:16] <seva> everyone: let's take a break!
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# [23:16] <seva> topic: Finalise Wire Protocol Endpoints
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# [23:31] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] zcorpan closed pull request #1322: Add tests for the metadata properties on DOMImplementation#createDocument. (master...createDocument-meta) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1322
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# [23:33] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] deniak closed pull request #1323: Update datalistoptions.html to the current spec. (master...datalist-options) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1323
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# [23:33] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] deniak pushed 4 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/26af8561ff83...b7aa726452c4
# [23:33] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master c57cdc0 Ms2ger: Update datalistoptions.html to the current spec.
# [23:33] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 079e5e5 Ms2ger: Add a test for HTMLCollection#item to datalistoptions.html.
# [23:33] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 3f13a75 Ms2ger: Remove datalistelement.html....
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# [23:37] <seva> topic: The New Process. The new way of the spec to the world
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# [23:38] <seva> Philippe: every single commit, if you want to, can go into the working draft (TR)
# [23:39] <seva> our spec in not on githug
# [23:39] <seva> we are using mercurial
# [23:40] <seva> Philippe: you can install a hook n your side. and notify us on every commit. we will then fetch your document and publish it
# [23:40] <seva> Philippe: we will retain the last version of every day
# [23:41] <seva> Philippe: the group has to make the decision: how often to update the doc
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# [23:41] <seva> Philippe: you may decide "every time the editor wants"
# [23:42] <seva> Philippe: we simply give you a n URI and you can ping it any time. we will go fetch the document etc
# [23:42] <seva> Philippe: and publish to the /TR
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# [23:44] <seva> lukeis: do you have a tutorial on good spec writing?
# [23:44] <seva> Philippe: no. I can think about it if you want
# [23:44] <seva> simonstewart: an editor support group? 12 steps?
# [23:45] <seva> Philippe: not yet.
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# [23:46] <seva> MikeSmith: there's a mailing list ... but that's about technical aspects of spec writing
# [23:46] <AutomatedTester> sam_u: https://treeherder.mozilla.org/ui/#/jobs?repo=mozilla-inbound look for Wr jobs
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# [23:47] <seva> MikeSmith: there's a guide/survey of API design mistake that were made in the past. not very useful for this group
# [23:48] <seva> willhelm: I suggest we make a desicion on this. That the editors push to /TR when they want
# [23:48] <seva> everyone: yes
# [23:48] <seva> JohnJansen: I would like to be able to review complex changes first
# [23:49] <seva> AutomatedTester: we could create a fork..
# [23:49] <seva> simonstewart: under github/w3c
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# [23:50] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] jacobrossi created submission/Microsoft/PointerEvents-ExplicitDone (+1 new commit): https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/a1b64945c240
# [23:50] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/submission/Microsoft/PointerEvents-ExplicitDone a1b6494 Jacob Rossi: Add explicit done call to avoid timeout
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# [23:50] <simonstewart> MikeSmith: please can you create a GitHub project under the w3c namespace for the webdriver spec?
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# [23:50] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] zcorpan closed pull request #1327: Extend the Element#tagName test. (master...tagName) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1327
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# [23:50] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] zcorpan pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/b7aa726452c4...490c952f58ab
# [23:50] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 32d5020 Ms2ger: Add more empty lines.
# [23:50] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master bb8e600 Ms2ger: Add some Element#tagName tests.
# [23:50] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 490c952 Simon Pieters: Merge pull request #1327 from Ms2ger/tagName...
# [23:50] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [23:50] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
# [23:50] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] jacobrossi opened pull request #1330: Add explicit done call to avoid timeout (master...submission/Microsoft/PointerEvents-ExplicitDone) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1330
# [23:50] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [23:50] <seva> action: MikeSmith: please can you create a GitHub project under the w3c namespace for the webdriver spec?
# [23:50] * RRSAgent records action 12
# [23:51] <seva> JohnJansen: propose use a different irc hash, not #testing
# [23:51] <seva> everyone agrees; tomorrow
# [23:52] <seva> resoution: ask editors push to /TR as often as they want. with John's caviat
# [23:53] <seva> (complex changes won't push without a review: announced in the mailing list)
# [23:53] <seva> topic: Screenshots
# [23:53] * Joins: rkawada (~rkawada@public.cloak)
# [23:53] <JohnJansen> John's Caveat: for most (almost all) changes, just push; for anything deemed 'complex' or 'controversial' please have a review before publishing. Also, always send mail to the list.
# [23:54] * Joins: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
# [23:54] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] jacobrossi closed pull request #1330: Add explicit done call to avoid timeout (master...submission/Microsoft/PointerEvents-ExplicitDone) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1330
# [23:54] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak) (gitbot)
# [23:54] <seva> sam_u: spec says that driver should pretend there's an infinitely large monitor
# [23:54] <seva> sam_u: it is hard to implement in chromedriver
# [23:55] <seva> sam_u: what's the most correct thing to do
# [23:55] <seva> sam_u: resizing will trigger a nunch of events etc
# [23:55] <simonstewart> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=45209
# [23:55] <seva> sam_u: it is sometimes better to show the screenshot of the actual viewport. debugging invisible (off the viewport) elements
# [23:56] <seva> sam_u: I don't know if this is feasible to implement.
# [23:57] * Joins: darobin_ (rberjon@public.cloak)
# [23:57] <seva> AutomatedTester: one other aspect there are plugins (different discussion)
# [23:57] <seva> AutomatedTester: we are trying to see what user sees
# [23:58] <seva> plugins can both modify dom and overlay elements
# [23:58] * Quits: lukeis (~Adium@public.cloak) ("Leaving.")
# [23:59] <seva> AutomatedTester: plugins should be black. accessing flash/plugin content from the page is a attack vector
# Session Close: Fri Oct 31 00:00:00 2014

The end :)