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- # Session Start: Tue Apr 14 00:00:00 2015
- # Session Ident: #testing
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- # [09:13] <Ms2ger> r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/4644
- # [09:14] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: looking now
- # [09:14] <Ms2ger> Ta
- # [09:14] <MikeSmith> eh
- # [09:14] <MikeSmith> is this the whole change?
- # [09:14] <MikeSmith> it's not actually adding a test is it?
- # [09:15] <MikeSmith> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/65021cbc?review=4644
- # [09:15] <MikeSmith> I guess I should actually try running it
- # [09:30] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, magic Aryeh tests :)
- # [09:32] <MikeSmith> ok
- # [09:32] <MikeSmith> btw why we still have reflection-obsolete.html, reflection-original.html in the tree?
- # [09:34] <MikeSmith> damn change affects the results pretty dramaticaly
- # [09:36] <Ms2ger> reflection-obsolete.html is for the stuff in the obsolete requirements for implementations section
- # [09:36] <Ms2ger> reflection-original.html... I don't really care
- # [09:36] <MikeSmith> ok
- # [09:37] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: so it's expected that gecko fails on a lot of these?
- # [09:37] <MikeSmith> assert_equals: expected (boolean) false but got (undefined) undefined
- # [09:37] <MikeSmith> ah, dialog
- # [09:37] <Ms2ger> Sounds like Gecko doesn't support dialog.open? Or even dialog at all?
- # [09:38] <MikeSmith> yeah, not dialog at all I think
- # [09:38] <MikeSmith> can't remember
- # [09:38] * MikeSmith tries in chrome
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- # [10:02] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] sideshowbarker closed pull request #1750: Add a test for reflection of dialog.open. (master...dialog) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1750
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- # [11:34] <MikeSmith> looking at the reflection tests I notice the dialog.itemScope failures and I wonder whether it's time that the microdata API should be dropped from the spec
- # [11:35] <MikeSmith> since the reality ism it seems pretty clear now that the microdata API is never going to end up up being a part of the platform that's actually implemented across UAs
- # [11:36] <MikeSmith> I guess maybe we need to have some vendors just explicitly say, we're not going to implement that
- # [11:40] <MikeSmith> I think the failure of that to become a reality is not a failure of microdata specifically but instead a pretty clear sign that nobody cares about being able to standard way to programatically access structured metadata embedded in Web content
- # [11:42] <MikeSmith> at least not as far as programatically accessing on the client side in your own Web-app code
- # [13:07] <darobin> mmmmm
- # [13:08] <darobin> if the microdata API is still in the spec it's a bug
- # [13:08] <darobin> I'm not sure that no one cares, but the API was clunky anyway
- # [13:08] <darobin> microdata isn't a failure, people actually use it quite a lot
- # [13:09] <darobin> typically in a horrible kludgy mixture alongside RDFa in a manner that says "you standards peeps fought over this for what?"
- # [13:11] <darobin> a few years from now some poor soul is going to have to write the spec for how data is actually reliably extracted from such scary smushing
- # [13:11] <darobin> poor soul from the future, if you read this: we're sorry, we'll buy you beer
- # [13:16] * jgraham isn't sorry
- # [13:16] <jgraham> And doubts anyone will do that
- # [13:17] <Ms2ger> darobin, we'll blame you, don't worry
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- # [13:17] <darobin> jgraham: happy to record a bet :)
- # [13:17] <darobin> Ms2ger: that's okay, with any luck I'll be very far away ;)
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- # [13:34] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] Ms2ger pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/commit/0e915370b71d82b6a89ebd15813b42364b27a2ba
- # [13:34] -gitbot:#testing- wptrunner/master 0e91537 Ms2ger: Fix typo.
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- # [13:36] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] Ms2ger created queue-dupe (+1 new commit): https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/commit/5811a32afab3
- # [13:36] -gitbot:#testing- wptrunner/queue-dupe 5811a32 Ms2ger: Remove a duplicated assignment.
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- # [14:16] <MikeSmith> I'm just sorry that any normal devs have to ever suffer through trying to do anything with RDFa
- # [14:17] <MikeSmith> because RDFa is just really badly sloppily designed
- # [14:17] <MikeSmith> and Microdata was not badly sloppily designed
- # [14:20] <Ms2ger> Thank you, HTMLWG
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- # [14:20] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] Ms2ger pushed 1 new commit to queue-dupe: https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/commit/9d4609b0a04d6469b12c56f659c3ca31528577c3
- # [14:20] -gitbot:#testing- wptrunner/queue-dupe 9d4609b Ms2ger: Remove a no-op assignment.
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- # [14:21] <MikeSmith> RDFa would have happened with or without the HTML WG
- # [14:21] <MikeSmith> the HTML WG helped it from becoming worse
- # [14:22] <MikeSmith> the HTML WG helped to keep Microdata alive when just about everybody else in the W3C organizationally and even on the W3C team as trying very hard to kill it
- # [14:23] <MikeSmith> and the fact that Microdata stayed alive ended up helping to force the RDFa partisans to come up with a slightly saner subset of their crap
- # [14:24] <MikeSmith> in the end, Google for the long term wants RDFa and not Microdata
- # [14:24] <MikeSmith> and maybe that's the bigger reason that we'll end up being stuck with RDFa
- # [14:25] <MikeSmith> and whatever minor part the HTML WG ever played in any of that drama will just be a footnote
- # [14:26] <jgraham> I doubt Google wants either
- # [14:27] <jgraham> It's in Google's best interests for information to be hard to extract
- # [14:42] <MikeSmith> they want if for the schema.org stuff at least
- # [14:43] <MikeSmith> also, Google sometimes actually does stuff that seems to not be in their best interests
- # [14:43] <MikeSmith> or at least not in what people think would be Google's own best interests
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- # [14:44] <jgraham> I think all organisations do at small scales. I imagine that long-lived ones don't, on average
- # [14:45] <MikeSmith> I think they can if they have a lot of things that aren't actually expected to make any money but that they're happy to keep funding anyway
- # [14:45] <MikeSmith> or that they're taking long odds on
- # [14:46] <jgraham> Right, agreed
- # [14:47] <jgraham> But search seems like a core business, and the long play is presumably the Hixie model where you develop secret algorithms that are better at extracting data than humans are at marking it up truthfully/accurately
- # [14:50] <MikeSmith> yeah
- # [14:52] <MikeSmith> among the fundamental flaws in the whole embedded metadata approach is that anybody other professional librarians and information designers are competent enough to even mark up their own content properly with structured metadata
- # [14:52] <MikeSmith> *the assumption that anybody other professional librarians and information designers
- # [14:55] <darobin> Google actually does need microdata
- # [14:55] <darobin> yes, it does make it somewhat easier to build a competitor
- # [14:55] <darobin> but it helps them more than it hurts
- # [14:56] <darobin> e.g. they're getting their arses handed over to them for product search by Amazon; better data (that maps to better SEO for shops) is important to that fight
- # [14:57] <darobin> and it's not the only place
- # [14:57] <darobin> obviously, the ranking, personalisation, generic search stay secret — I reckon overall it's not a bad model
- # [14:58] <darobin> MikeSmith: you don't need people to be competent at marking up their information, 80% of the time you just need them to be willing to paste things that match the data they have
- # [14:59] <darobin> of course, that becomes a game of telephone in which you eventually get really weird metadata — but it works anyway :)
- # [14:59] <MikeSmith> heh
- # [14:59] <MikeSmith> ok
- # [14:59] <MikeSmith> I still have more faith in the approach where we just make smarter computers to do all that for us
- # [14:59] <darobin> I helped danbri a little while back debug some data that Google were indexing and couldn't figure out why they were successfully indexing it
- # [15:00] <darobin> yeah, that would be sweet too
- # [15:05] <MikeSmith> I still think the real promise of the Web was Tim's original idea of it being a means to spontaneously cause unexpected/surprising links among disparate bits of otherwise unconnected bits of information to be exposed
- # [15:06] <MikeSmith> to help people discover those links between things that they otherwise would not have noticed
- # [15:06] <jgraham> e.g. people like, pictures, people like cats, people really really like pictures of cats
- # [15:06] <MikeSmith> heh
- # [15:08] <MikeSmith> well I think that original idea of Tim's about making the Web into this giant means for shining light on all those connections is what's driven his obsession with the semantic web
- # [15:08] <MikeSmith> I think others in the semantic web mostly had other motivations
- # [15:10] <MikeSmith> but I think for Tim it was a belief that if we could build this extra layer in the right way and start to get it deployed some, it would eventually grow into something of a critical mass that would cause that kind of discovery to emerge
- # [15:23] <darobin> yeah
- # [15:23] <darobin> until we know how to make that work without decentralising it, though, it ain't gonna work
- # [15:24] <MikeSmith> I think it's eventually going to emerge on its own, inevitably
- # [15:24] <MikeSmith> it's just going to take longer than Tim hoped it would
- # [15:24] <darobin> I meant centralising it
- # [15:24] <MikeSmith> ah
- # [15:24] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
- # [15:25] <MikeSmith> that's how I read what you said
- # [15:25] <darobin> heh
- # [15:25] <darobin> the semantic web is about decentralised data formats
- # [15:25] <darobin> which is sort of nice
- # [15:25] <darobin> but really, what you need is decentralised processing, federation, etc.
- # [15:26] <darobin> otherwise the magic is owned, and often not all that magical
- # [15:26] <jgraham> And yet the reality is that everything that's most successful on the web today is about centralising and capturing as much as possible
- # [15:26] <jgraham> And everyone has given working up on decentralised-anything
- # [15:27] <darobin> I don't think everyone has given up
- # [15:27] <jgraham> OK, let me rephrase
- # [15:27] <darobin> but the groups working on decentralisation are annoyingly splintered, of course
- # [15:28] <jgraham> There's a huge industry of multiple major players, thousands of smaller players and tens of thousands of wannabes working on centralised own-all-the-data systems for the web. There are a handful of individuals talking about decentralised solutions.
- # [15:29] <darobin> oh, yes, that's certainly true
- # [15:29] <jgraham> This situation is markedly worse than it was a decade ago and doesn't look like it's getting better
- # [15:30] <darobin> I don't think it's any worse than a decade ago; it's probably worse than two decades ago :)
- # [15:30] <jgraham> e.g. a decade ago people were worrying about which of RSS or Atom would win. In the end they both lost.
- # [15:32] <jgraham> A decade ago people blogged. Now they have facebook or twitter.
- # [15:32] <jgraham> It's worse.
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- # [15:33] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] Ms2ger opened pull request #100: Remove dead code. (master...queue-dupe) https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/pull/100
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- # [15:34] <Ms2ger> r?
- # [15:34] <jgraham> r- I wanted PR 100
- # [15:34] <Ms2ger> That's more my thing :)
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- # [15:37] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] jgraham closed pull request #100: Remove dead code. (master...queue-dupe) https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/pull/100
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- # [15:37] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] jgraham closed pull request #99: Fix regression in handling of paths as include arguments (master...jgraham/include_fix) https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/pull/99
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- # [17:43] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] jgraham pushed 1 new commit to jgraham/autoproxy: https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/commit/4754c9951c783f266911b642d5bd40080865973c
- # [17:43] -gitbot:#testing- wptrunner/jgraham/autoproxy 4754c99 James Graham: fixup! Use prefs to set up local dns entries for firefox rather than autoproxy.
- # [17:43] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
- # [17:48] <MikeSmith> jgraham: is that working as designed in your environment now?
- # [17:49] <jgraham> MikeSmith: https://treeherder.mozilla.org/#/jobs?repo=try&revision=991d33eacce4
- # [17:50] <MikeSmith> ah ok
- # [17:50] * MikeSmith watches
- # [17:58] <MikeSmith> I see red right now on OS X 10.8 opt
- # [17:59] <Ms2ger> That seems to be broken regardless
- # [18:04] <jgraham> Yeah, ignore that
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- # [18:25] <jgraham> Well initial signs were good and then slightly less initial signs are bad
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- # [18:40] <jgraham> Take 3 https://treeherder.mozilla.org/#/jobs?repo=try&revision=337ed65ea8b6
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- # [18:45] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] jgraham pushed 1 new commit to jgraham/autoproxy: https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/commit/243f1f34fa1e5a78be4498c94fa79d76583288b5
- # [18:45] -gitbot:#testing- wptrunner/jgraham/autoproxy 243f1f3 James Graham: fixup! fixup! Use prefs to set up local dns entries for firefox rather than autoproxy.
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- # [18:50] -gitbot:#testing- [wptserve] jgraham created jgraham/logger_fixup (+1 new commit): https://github.com/w3c/wptserve/commit/127eedf47299
- # [18:50] -gitbot:#testing- wptserve/jgraham/logger_fixup 127eedf James Graham: Fix a broken reference to the logger.
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- # [18:51] -gitbot:#testing- [wptserve] jgraham opened pull request #57: Fix a broken reference to the logger. (master...jgraham/logger_fixup) https://github.com/w3c/wptserve/pull/57
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- # [19:09] <MikeSmith> what is ping mean
- # [19:09] <MikeSmith> in teh treeherder
- # [19:11] <Ms2ger> Hmm?
- # [19:14] <jgraham> MikeSmith: "Pin"? Something to do with sheriffing and marking intermittents
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- # [19:59] <ato> You can pin a bunch of jobs, then perform an action on the pinboard.
- # [19:59] <ato> It applies an action to multiple jobs basically.
- # [19:59] <ato> Like marking several jobs as intermittents or for rescheduling or something.
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- # [23:27] <jgraham> That try run is clean fwiw
- # Session Close: Wed Apr 15 00:00:00 2015
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