/irc-logs / w3c / #testing / 2015-04-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 14 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #testing
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  39. # [09:13] <Ms2ger> r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/4644
  40. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: looking now
  41. # [09:14] <Ms2ger> Ta
  42. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> eh
  43. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> is this the whole change?
  44. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> it's not actually adding a test is it?
  45. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/65021cbc?review=4644
  46. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> I guess I should actually try running it
  47. # [09:30] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, magic Aryeh tests :)
  48. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> ok
  49. # [09:32] <MikeSmith> btw why we still have reflection-obsolete.html, reflection-original.html in the tree?
  50. # [09:34] <MikeSmith> damn change affects the results pretty dramaticaly
  51. # [09:36] <Ms2ger> reflection-obsolete.html is for the stuff in the obsolete requirements for implementations section
  52. # [09:36] <Ms2ger> reflection-original.html... I don't really care
  53. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> ok
  54. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: so it's expected that gecko fails on a lot of these?
  55. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> assert_equals: expected (boolean) false but got (undefined) undefined
  56. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> ah, dialog
  57. # [09:37] <Ms2ger> Sounds like Gecko doesn't support dialog.open? Or even dialog at all?
  58. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> yeah, not dialog at all I think
  59. # [09:38] <MikeSmith> can't remember
  60. # [09:38] * MikeSmith tries in chrome
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  63. # [10:02] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] sideshowbarker closed pull request #1750: Add a test for reflection of dialog.open. (master...dialog) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1750
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  68. # [11:34] <MikeSmith> looking at the reflection tests I notice the dialog.itemScope failures and I wonder whether it's time that the microdata API should be dropped from the spec
  69. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> since the reality ism it seems pretty clear now that the microdata API is never going to end up up being a part of the platform that's actually implemented across UAs
  70. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> I guess maybe we need to have some vendors just explicitly say, we're not going to implement that
  71. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> I think the failure of that to become a reality is not a failure of microdata specifically but instead a pretty clear sign that nobody cares about being able to standard way to programatically access structured metadata embedded in Web content
  72. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> at least not as far as programatically accessing on the client side in your own Web-app code
  73. # [13:07] <darobin> mmmmm
  74. # [13:08] <darobin> if the microdata API is still in the spec it's a bug
  75. # [13:08] <darobin> I'm not sure that no one cares, but the API was clunky anyway
  76. # [13:08] <darobin> microdata isn't a failure, people actually use it quite a lot
  77. # [13:09] <darobin> typically in a horrible kludgy mixture alongside RDFa in a manner that says "you standards peeps fought over this for what?"
  78. # [13:11] <darobin> a few years from now some poor soul is going to have to write the spec for how data is actually reliably extracted from such scary smushing
  79. # [13:11] <darobin> poor soul from the future, if you read this: we're sorry, we'll buy you beer
  80. # [13:16] * jgraham isn't sorry
  81. # [13:16] <jgraham> And doubts anyone will do that
  82. # [13:17] <Ms2ger> darobin, we'll blame you, don't worry
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  84. # [13:17] <darobin> jgraham: happy to record a bet :)
  85. # [13:17] <darobin> Ms2ger: that's okay, with any luck I'll be very far away ;)
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  92. # [13:34] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] Ms2ger pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/commit/0e915370b71d82b6a89ebd15813b42364b27a2ba
  93. # [13:34] -gitbot:#testing- wptrunner/master 0e91537 Ms2ger: Fix typo.
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  96. # [13:36] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] Ms2ger created queue-dupe (+1 new commit): https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/commit/5811a32afab3
  97. # [13:36] -gitbot:#testing- wptrunner/queue-dupe 5811a32 Ms2ger: Remove a duplicated assignment.
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  102. # [14:16] <MikeSmith> I'm just sorry that any normal devs have to ever suffer through trying to do anything with RDFa
  103. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> because RDFa is just really badly sloppily designed
  104. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> and Microdata was not badly sloppily designed
  105. # [14:20] <Ms2ger> Thank you, HTMLWG
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  107. # [14:20] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] Ms2ger pushed 1 new commit to queue-dupe: https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/commit/9d4609b0a04d6469b12c56f659c3ca31528577c3
  108. # [14:20] -gitbot:#testing- wptrunner/queue-dupe 9d4609b Ms2ger: Remove a no-op assignment.
  109. # [14:20] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  110. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> RDFa would have happened with or without the HTML WG
  111. # [14:21] <MikeSmith> the HTML WG helped it from becoming worse
  112. # [14:22] <MikeSmith> the HTML WG helped to keep Microdata alive when just about everybody else in the W3C organizationally and even on the W3C team as trying very hard to kill it
  113. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> and the fact that Microdata stayed alive ended up helping to force the RDFa partisans to come up with a slightly saner subset of their crap
  114. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> in the end, Google for the long term wants RDFa and not Microdata
  115. # [14:24] <MikeSmith> and maybe that's the bigger reason that we'll end up being stuck with RDFa
  116. # [14:25] <MikeSmith> and whatever minor part the HTML WG ever played in any of that drama will just be a footnote
  117. # [14:26] <jgraham> I doubt Google wants either
  118. # [14:27] <jgraham> It's in Google's best interests for information to be hard to extract
  119. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> they want if for the schema.org stuff at least
  120. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> also, Google sometimes actually does stuff that seems to not be in their best interests
  121. # [14:43] <MikeSmith> or at least not in what people think would be Google's own best interests
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  123. # [14:44] <jgraham> I think all organisations do at small scales. I imagine that long-lived ones don't, on average
  124. # [14:45] <MikeSmith> I think they can if they have a lot of things that aren't actually expected to make any money but that they're happy to keep funding anyway
  125. # [14:45] <MikeSmith> or that they're taking long odds on
  126. # [14:46] <jgraham> Right, agreed
  127. # [14:47] <jgraham> But search seems like a core business, and the long play is presumably the Hixie model where you develop secret algorithms that are better at extracting data than humans are at marking it up truthfully/accurately
  128. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> yeah
  129. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> among the fundamental flaws in the whole embedded metadata approach is that anybody other professional librarians and information designers are competent enough to even mark up their own content properly with structured metadata
  130. # [14:52] <MikeSmith> *the assumption that anybody other professional librarians and information designers
  131. # [14:55] <darobin> Google actually does need microdata
  132. # [14:55] <darobin> yes, it does make it somewhat easier to build a competitor
  133. # [14:55] <darobin> but it helps them more than it hurts
  134. # [14:56] <darobin> e.g. they're getting their arses handed over to them for product search by Amazon; better data (that maps to better SEO for shops) is important to that fight
  135. # [14:57] <darobin> and it's not the only place
  136. # [14:57] <darobin> obviously, the ranking, personalisation, generic search stay secret — I reckon overall it's not a bad model
  137. # [14:58] <darobin> MikeSmith: you don't need people to be competent at marking up their information, 80% of the time you just need them to be willing to paste things that match the data they have
  138. # [14:59] <darobin> of course, that becomes a game of telephone in which you eventually get really weird metadata — but it works anyway :)
  139. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> heh
  140. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> ok
  141. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> I still have more faith in the approach where we just make smarter computers to do all that for us
  142. # [14:59] <darobin> I helped danbri a little while back debug some data that Google were indexing and couldn't figure out why they were successfully indexing it
  143. # [15:00] <darobin> yeah, that would be sweet too
  144. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> I still think the real promise of the Web was Tim's original idea of it being a means to spontaneously cause unexpected/surprising links among disparate bits of otherwise unconnected bits of information to be exposed
  145. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> to help people discover those links between things that they otherwise would not have noticed
  146. # [15:06] <jgraham> e.g. people like, pictures, people like cats, people really really like pictures of cats
  147. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> heh
  148. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> well I think that original idea of Tim's about making the Web into this giant means for shining light on all those connections is what's driven his obsession with the semantic web
  149. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> I think others in the semantic web mostly had other motivations
  150. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> but I think for Tim it was a belief that if we could build this extra layer in the right way and start to get it deployed some, it would eventually grow into something of a critical mass that would cause that kind of discovery to emerge
  151. # [15:23] <darobin> yeah
  152. # [15:23] <darobin> until we know how to make that work without decentralising it, though, it ain't gonna work
  153. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> I think it's eventually going to emerge on its own, inevitably
  154. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> it's just going to take longer than Tim hoped it would
  155. # [15:24] <darobin> I meant centralising it
  156. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> ah
  157. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  158. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> that's how I read what you said
  159. # [15:25] <darobin> heh
  160. # [15:25] <darobin> the semantic web is about decentralised data formats
  161. # [15:25] <darobin> which is sort of nice
  162. # [15:25] <darobin> but really, what you need is decentralised processing, federation, etc.
  163. # [15:26] <darobin> otherwise the magic is owned, and often not all that magical
  164. # [15:26] <jgraham> And yet the reality is that everything that's most successful on the web today is about centralising and capturing as much as possible
  165. # [15:26] <jgraham> And everyone has given working up on decentralised-anything
  166. # [15:27] <darobin> I don't think everyone has given up
  167. # [15:27] <jgraham> OK, let me rephrase
  168. # [15:27] <darobin> but the groups working on decentralisation are annoyingly splintered, of course
  169. # [15:28] <jgraham> There's a huge industry of multiple major players, thousands of smaller players and tens of thousands of wannabes working on centralised own-all-the-data systems for the web. There are a handful of individuals talking about decentralised solutions.
  170. # [15:29] <darobin> oh, yes, that's certainly true
  171. # [15:29] <jgraham> This situation is markedly worse than it was a decade ago and doesn't look like it's getting better
  172. # [15:30] <darobin> I don't think it's any worse than a decade ago; it's probably worse than two decades ago :)
  173. # [15:30] <jgraham> e.g. a decade ago people were worrying about which of RSS or Atom would win. In the end they both lost.
  174. # [15:32] <jgraham> A decade ago people blogged. Now they have facebook or twitter.
  175. # [15:32] <jgraham> It's worse.
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  177. # [15:33] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] Ms2ger opened pull request #100: Remove dead code. (master...queue-dupe) https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/pull/100
  178. # [15:33] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  179. # [15:34] <Ms2ger> r?
  180. # [15:34] <jgraham> r- I wanted PR 100
  181. # [15:34] <Ms2ger> That's more my thing :)
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  183. # [15:37] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] jgraham closed pull request #100: Remove dead code. (master...queue-dupe) https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/pull/100
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  186. # [15:37] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] jgraham closed pull request #99: Fix regression in handling of paths as include arguments (master...jgraham/include_fix) https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/pull/99
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  203. # [17:43] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] jgraham pushed 1 new commit to jgraham/autoproxy: https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/commit/4754c9951c783f266911b642d5bd40080865973c
  204. # [17:43] -gitbot:#testing- wptrunner/jgraham/autoproxy 4754c99 James Graham: fixup! Use prefs to set up local dns entries for firefox rather than autoproxy.
  205. # [17:43] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  206. # [17:48] <MikeSmith> jgraham: is that working as designed in your environment now?
  207. # [17:49] <jgraham> MikeSmith: https://treeherder.mozilla.org/#/jobs?repo=try&revision=991d33eacce4
  208. # [17:50] <MikeSmith> ah ok
  209. # [17:50] * MikeSmith watches
  210. # [17:58] <MikeSmith> I see red right now on OS X 10.8 opt
  211. # [17:59] <Ms2ger> That seems to be broken regardless
  212. # [18:04] <jgraham> Yeah, ignore that
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  216. # [18:25] <jgraham> Well initial signs were good and then slightly less initial signs are bad
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  218. # [18:40] <jgraham> Take 3 https://treeherder.mozilla.org/#/jobs?repo=try&revision=337ed65ea8b6
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  220. # [18:45] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] jgraham pushed 1 new commit to jgraham/autoproxy: https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/commit/243f1f34fa1e5a78be4498c94fa79d76583288b5
  221. # [18:45] -gitbot:#testing- wptrunner/jgraham/autoproxy 243f1f3 James Graham: fixup! fixup! Use prefs to set up local dns entries for firefox rather than autoproxy.
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  224. # [18:50] -gitbot:#testing- [wptserve] jgraham created jgraham/logger_fixup (+1 new commit): https://github.com/w3c/wptserve/commit/127eedf47299
  225. # [18:50] -gitbot:#testing- wptserve/jgraham/logger_fixup 127eedf James Graham: Fix a broken reference to the logger.
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  228. # [18:51] -gitbot:#testing- [wptserve] jgraham opened pull request #57: Fix a broken reference to the logger. (master...jgraham/logger_fixup) https://github.com/w3c/wptserve/pull/57
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  233. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> what is ping mean
  234. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> in teh treeherder
  235. # [19:11] <Ms2ger> Hmm?
  236. # [19:14] <jgraham> MikeSmith: "Pin"? Something to do with sheriffing and marking intermittents
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  241. # [19:59] <ato> You can pin a bunch of jobs, then perform an action on the pinboard.
  242. # [19:59] <ato> It applies an action to multiple jobs basically.
  243. # [19:59] <ato> Like marking several jobs as intermittents or for rescheduling or something.
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  259. # [22:16] * Joins: bhill2 (~bhill2@public.cloak)
  260. # [22:20] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  261. # [22:56] * Quits: bhill2 (~bhill2@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  262. # [23:11] * Joins: bhill2 (~bhill2@public.cloak)
  263. # [23:13] * Quits: bhill2 (~bhill2@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  264. # [23:14] * Joins: bhill2 (~bhill2@public.cloak)
  265. # [23:20] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  266. # [23:27] <jgraham> That try run is clean fwiw
  267. # Session Close: Wed Apr 15 00:00:00 2015

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