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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 28 00:00:00 2015
  2. # Session Ident: #testing
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  8. # [00:18] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] jgraham reopened pull request #151: Add framework for switching render backend in servo. (master...jgraham/servo_backend) https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/pull/151
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  11. # [00:18] -gitbot:#testing- [wptrunner] jgraham closed pull request #151: Add framework for switching render backend in servo. (master...jgraham/servo_backend) https://github.com/w3c/wptrunner/pull/151
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  49. # [03:16] <JohnJansen> gsnedders, are you doing a testing breakout later today as well?
  50. # [03:16] * terri is now known as terri_offline
  51. # [03:16] <simonstewart> Is there a testing breakout?
  52. # [03:16] <gsnedders> JohnJansen: yes, after lunch room 201, myself and fantasai are
  53. # [03:17] <JohnJansen> great, thanks
  54. # [03:17] <gsnedders> it's followed by something related to running tests on TVs, though I don't think that's so much your interest area :)
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  56. # [03:21] <gsnedders> simonstewart: essentially the subject is "how do we test browsers better", not really looking at "we need tests for these tiny features", but rather the higher-level issues.
  57. # [03:21] <gsnedders> that's, uh, 13:30
  58. # [03:21] <simonstewart> Not 14:30?
  59. # [03:21] <simonstewart> That's something relevant to the webdriver spec
  60. # [03:22] <simonstewart> Browser vendors are one of the three audiences for that spec
  61. # [03:22] <simonstewart> (the other two being "normal people writing tests" and "spec authors"
  62. # [03:22] <simonstewart> )
  63. # [03:22] <gsnedders> https://twitter.com/w3c/status/659180251096838144 shows it at 13:30
  64. # [03:24] <simonstewart> Quite right.
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  68. # [03:55] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: https://lists.w3.org has dead links on it, e.g., to the test2 CG
  69. # [03:55] <gsnedders> there are so many CGs which have never had any emails :\
  70. # [03:57] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I feel like we should restart the Testing IG along the lines of the i18n IG, trying to keep everyone sane.
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  79. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I'd favor doing any Testing group like that as a CG rather than an IG, because CGs are open to anybody (with no invited-expert thing needed) and IGs have other process overhead that doesn't usually buy us much in return (vs a CG)
  80. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> but regardless, I recommend discussing your ideas with jgraham and Ms2ger in particular
  81. # [04:35] <MikeSmith> e.g., describing what problems a Testing group would solve
  82. # [04:36] <MikeSmith> or just in general what problems you want to solve that we're not already addressing through wpt or whatever existing stuff
  83. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> as far as https://lists.w3.org having dead links, that's something for systems team to look into/audit
  84. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> there are many dead/stale CGs
  85. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> or many that never got of the ground
  86. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> but we have no garbage-collection running to clean those up
  87. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> so they just accumulate
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  92. # [04:58] <ato> MikeSmith: Sweep and mark ftw.
  93. # [04:58] <ato> (-;
  94. # [05:07] <MikeSmith> heh
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  102. # [05:32] <simonstewart> present+ Simon Stewart
  103. # [05:33] <JohnJansen> present+ JohnJansen
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  105. # [05:33] <fantasai> https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/w3c-test-sync
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  107. # [05:33] <jyasskin> present+ jyasskin
  108. # [05:34] * MikeSmith waves
  109. # [05:34] <fantasai> gsnedders asks about the status quo
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  111. # [05:34] <fantasai> jgraham: Current situation is that for w3c/whatwg specs
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  113. # [05:34] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-testing-irc
  114. # [05:35] <fantasai> jgraham: We have two places where we collect tests
  115. # [05:35] <fantasai> jgraham: We have web platform tests, github repo, can submit tests using normal github workflow
  116. # [05:35] <fantasai> jgraham: Has tests for most specs apart from CSS
  117. # [05:35] <fantasai> jgraham: CSS has a separate repo for historical repo
  118. # [05:35] <fantasai> jgraham: It is actually an hg repo, but has a mirror in github
  119. # [05:35] <fantasai> jgraham: There are slightly different requirements for each set of tests
  120. # [05:36] <fantasai> jgraham: We have a site ttwf.org which attemts, oocasionally inaccurately, how you write and submit tests
  121. # [05:36] <fantasai> jgraham: Kinds of things we can test atm :
  122. # [05:36] <gsnedders> s/ttwf.org/testthewebforward.org/
  123. # [05:36] <fantasai> jgraham: 1. Things you can access through JS DOM Apis, using testharness.js
  124. # [05:36] <fantasai> jgraham: which gives you a way to write JS test
  125. # [05:36] <fantasai> jgraham: 2. reftests, which are for things that depend on layout/rendering
  126. # [05:37] <fantasai> jgraham: You create two versions of a document, one that uses feature you're testing, and another that's supposed to have identical rendering, but using simpler technologies (specifically, not the feature being tested)
  127. # [05:37] <fantasai> jgraham: We also accept manual tests as well
  128. # [05:37] <fantasai> jgraham: There's a design to add some sort of automation to that, for things that can currently only be done with manual tests or only browser-internal testing APIAs
  129. # [05:38] <fantasai> Florian: In Opera we distinguished between tests requiring interaction, and others which you couldn't create a reference file, but could for subsequent runs after a pass, compare by screenshot
  130. # [05:38] <fantasai> e.g. for gradients or something like that
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  132. # [05:38] <fantasai> SimonSapin: Gecko has fuzzy reftests, where only a few pixels off. Need to specify how many pixels, and how much off
  133. # [05:39] <gsnedders> (Presto-based Opera, that was)
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  135. # [05:39] <fantasai> jgraham: Those are impl detaisl at opera
  136. # [05:39] <fantasai> jgraham: One of the goals that I have at last, is to allow as many tests as possible to be run in continuous integration system
  137. # [05:39] * Joins: yosuke (yfunahas@public.cloak)
  138. # [05:39] <fantasai> jgraham: Even with all of Opera's infrastructure, couldn't run those in continuous integration
  139. # [05:39] * Joins: shoko (~shoko@public.cloak)
  140. # [05:40] <fantasai> Florian: yes
  141. # [05:40] <yosuke> rrsaget, draft minutes
  142. # [05:40] <fantasai> gsnedders: Sort of
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  144. # [05:40] <fantasai> jgraham: You can do it if you're running handful of interations a day
  145. # [05:40] <fantasai> jgraham: If you're running 100s of integrations a day, if they all requiring manual fiddling with tests
  146. # [05:41] <fantasai> jgraham: Even with Opera's case, slight tweaks would need re-evaluation, ended up with thousands of possible renderings,
  147. # [05:41] <fantasai> gsnedders: I don't think anyone has a desire to do this
  148. # [05:41] <fantasai> jgraham: Other thing is, in terms of where we are wrt running the tests
  149. # [05:41] <fantasai> jgraham: At Mozilla we run almost all the web platform tests in automation for each commit
  150. # [05:41] <fantasai> jgraham: Have an open source impl called wptrunner, which is somewhat browser-independent
  151. # [05:42] <fantasai> jgraham: There's a pull request to get edge support
  152. # [05:42] <fantasai> jgraham: Also have it running in servo
  153. # [05:42] <fantasai> jgraham: Also in Servo, run a subset of the CSS tests using same test runner
  154. # [05:42] <fantasai> jgraham: That's the State of the Union
  155. # [05:42] <fantasai> jyasskin: What proportion of tests is Chrome actually running?
  156. # [05:42] <fantasai> jgraham: Hoping someon can say
  157. # [05:42] * gsnedders can we not multiple people called Geoffrey/Jeffrey here?
  158. # [05:43] <fantasai> jgraham: Chrome has a heavyweight import process
  159. # [05:43] <fantasai> jgraham: As a result, nobody actually imports stuff
  160. # [05:43] <fantasai> jgraham: So Chrome is only running tests they upstreamed, but not taking bugfixes down
  161. # [05:43] <fantasai> ojan: Really adhoc, so ppl who are motivated wrt a test suite will pull new versions
  162. # [05:43] <fantasai> ?: We made some effort to run wptserv so we can run the tests as written
  163. # [05:44] <fantasai> ?: That work is 80% done, but had problems finding people to do the last 20%
  164. # [05:44] <jyasskin> s/?/mikewest/
  165. # [05:44] <fantasai> ?: Once that's done, will be able to just run all of the tests
  166. # [05:44] <fantasai> ojan: Are you working on this?
  167. # [05:44] <fantasai> mikewest: Intern did most of it
  168. # [05:44] <fantasai> gsnedders: So, CSS test suite
  169. # [05:44] <fantasai> gsnedders: Has basically same types of tests
  170. # [05:44] <fantasai> gsnedders: As wpt
  171. # [05:45] <fantasai> gsnedders: But also has more metadata, such that it's possible to find out which ones can be screenshotted
  172. # [05:45] <fantasai> gsnedders: Ideally we want to get rid all the screenshot compared tests
  173. # [05:45] <fantasai> fantasai: Can get rid of all of them, but not quite all
  174. # [05:45] <fantasai> fantasai: Some can't be turned into reftests
  175. # [05:46] <fantasai> fantasai: E.g. can't test for underlines
  176. # [05:46] <fantasai> fantasai: Can test that it's not not underlined, but underlining thickness and position isn't defined per spec
  177. # [05:47] <r12a> q+
  178. # [05:47] * Zakim sees r12a on the speaker queue
  179. # [05:47] <fantasai> JohnJansen: But converting the reftestable tests is a big undertaking
  180. # [05:47] <fantasai> gsnedders: We should have all new tests with references
  181. # [05:47] <fantasai> Florian: When possible
  182. # [05:47] * jyasskin wants to ask about how to write Web Bluetooth/NFC/USB tests that need browser hooks, at some point. Let me know when's the right time to bring that up.
  183. # [05:47] * Joins: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak)
  184. # [05:48] <fantasai> rniwa: That's only for things that need visual comparison
  185. # [05:48] <gsnedders> q+ jyasskin
  186. # [05:48] * Zakim sees r12a, jyasskin on the speaker queue
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  188. # [05:48] <fantasai> rniwa: Should be JS test if possible
  189. # [05:48] <jyasskin> thx gsnedders
  190. # [05:49] <fantasai> JohnJansen: CSSWG resolved on Js test first, reftest second, manual test third
  191. # [05:49] * gsnedders will let queue go in a moment, but I'd rather this discuss end first
  192. # [05:49] <fantasai> fantasai: No, resolved on reftest or JS test (automatable) over manual
  193. # [05:49] <gsnedders> ack r12a
  194. # [05:49] * Zakim sees jyasskin on the speaker queue
  195. # [05:49] <fantasai> fantasai: Didn't want to prefer JS over reftest because CSS has non-JS implementations
  196. # [05:49] <fantasai> ...
  197. # [05:49] <fantasai> r12a: ...
  198. # [05:49] <fantasai> r12a: Can we go over objectives for this session?
  199. # [05:50] <gsnedders> the first was about viewing test results
  200. # [05:50] <fantasai> jgraham: In regard to first thing, there is a tool that was built for visualizing which tests pass
  201. # [05:50] <fantasai> jgraham: show you tests that pass
  202. # [05:50] <fantasai> jgraham: but that doesn't work with the output from wptrunner
  203. # [05:50] <fantasai> jgraham: There's another in-browser runner that people were using for getting specs to CR
  204. # [05:50] <fantasai> jgraham: rather than continuous integration systems
  205. # [05:50] <fantasai> jgraham: That will output in ways that can be read by this tool
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  207. # [05:51] <fantasai> jgraham: For general web platform tests in wptrunenr, don't have a way to visualize
  208. # [05:51] <fantasai> jgraham: CSS has other systems that allows running tests online and store test results including UA data
  209. # [05:51] <fantasai> jgraham: Shoudld allow slurping test results, and display those
  210. # [05:51] <fantasai> jgraham: And display results fro 200,000 tests
  211. # [05:51] <fantasai> gsnedders: Should integrate with continuous integration systems
  212. # [05:52] <gsnedders> ack jyasskin
  213. # [05:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  214. # [05:52] <fantasai> jyasskin: Totally unrelated to what's discussed so far. How do we do WebBluetooth or USB testing or geolocation
  215. # [05:52] * SimonSapin gsnedders, csswg has three simon :)
  216. # [05:52] <fantasai> jyasskin: To test those, you have to tell the browser how to respond to those tests
  217. # [05:52] * gsnedders yes, but my name is less common ;P
  218. # [05:52] <fantasai> jyasskin: We don't currently have a way to do that
  219. # [05:52] <fantasai> jyasskin: This group should tell us how
  220. # [05:52] <fantasai> rniwa: What are you saying?
  221. # [05:53] <fantasai> jyasskin: For web bluetooth, the implementation we have right now doesn't go end to end. Tests platform-independent part of crhom
  222. # [05:53] <fantasai> jyasskin: As part of the test, need to make the API call that shows dialog, tell browser how to respond to dialog
  223. # [05:53] <fantasai> jyasskin: Spec says there should be some prompt, or that the user grants permission in some way
  224. # [05:53] <fantasai> jyasskin: Has a space for UI to appear
  225. # [05:53] <fantasai> jyasskin: You don't get the response until permission granted
  226. # [05:54] <fantasai> jyasskin: Want to configure a fake device that will respond in certain ways to bluetooth radio
  227. # [05:54] <fantasai> jyasskin: Then want to assert that those responses make it to the browser and ..
  228. # [05:54] <fantasai> Florian: Or geolocation, pretend to be somewhere
  229. # [05:54] <fantasai> rniwa: if you're mocking it, don't know if it actually works or not
  230. # [05:54] <fantasai> jyasskin: we test half of the thing
  231. # [05:54] <fantasai> jyasskin: We can use same functions to configure a physical device that actually tests the whole stack.
  232. # [05:55] <fantasai> jyasskin: Would like tests to work for both
  233. # [05:55] <fantasai> jyasskin: Produce same results
  234. # [05:55] <fantasai> rniwa: Suppose bluetooth device, need to have a very specific deice for very speciif cresult
  235. # [05:55] <fantasai> jyasskin: There ar test devices that allow responding in specific ways
  236. # [05:55] <fantasai> rniwa: bluetoothe Q tool
  237. # [05:55] <fantasai> jyasskin: yes
  238. # [05:55] <fantasai> jyasskin: want to run in a lab, but want to run tests in multipe browsers, and be able to run test if you don't have the lab
  239. # [05:56] <fantasai> jyasskin: I have a spec for this set of testing functions, but happens to be what we write in chrome, it's terrible names, no consensus on this
  240. # [05:56] <fantasai> rniwa: Seems like a prime candidate for webdriver
  241. # [05:56] <fantasai> rniwa: Seems like the right place to do this kind of stuff
  242. # [05:56] <fantasai> jyasskin: Talked to them yesterday
  243. # [05:56] <fantasai> jyasskin: For first part, controlling dialog, yes, but 2nd part maybe not
  244. # [05:57] <fantasai> fantasai: We're off-topic. Going back to r12a's 2nd question, clarifying the topic
  245. # [05:58] <jyasskin> Sorry for asking the off-topic question. :)
  246. # [05:58] <gsnedders> fantasai: the topic is actually primarily getting everything synchronied up and getting everyone running it up so we don't have duplicate tests being written and then can spend more reasources on writing different tests
  247. # [05:59] <fantasai> [...]
  248. # [06:00] <fantasai> jgraham: Going back to synchronization
  249. # [06:00] <gsnedders> q+
  250. # [06:00] * Zakim sees gsnedders on the speaker queue
  251. # [06:00] <fantasai> jgraham: Situation we have at Mozilla atm is worth talking about, because better than anyone else has
  252. # [06:00] <fantasai> jgraham: For web platform tests, we have a script that allows us to.. it pulls in the upstream repository and replaces our copy with the upstream copy
  253. # [06:00] <fantasai> jgraham: Which would be fine, and what we had at the beginning
  254. # [06:01] <fantasai> jgraham: But didn't allow devs an easy workflow to submit tests
  255. # [06:01] <fantasai> jgraham: So what we did then is we added functionality that allows devs to land patches on a local copy of the test
  256. # [06:01] <fantasai> jgraham: And before we do a pull, those patches get upstreameed
  257. # [06:01] <fantasai> jgraham: web platform test review policy is that as long as review was public, it's accepted as a review
  258. # [06:02] <fantasai> jgraham: We upstream the patches, and then pull down the changes from the w3c master
  259. # [06:02] <fantasai> jgraham: We then have to update metadata about which changed tests pass/fail
  260. # [06:02] <fantasai> jgraham: That takes about a day, mostly automatic and just waiting
  261. # [06:02] <fantasai> jgraham: With CSS, the tests that we run aren't the tests that we submit
  262. # [06:02] <fantasai> jgraham: We submit source files, but run built tests
  263. # [06:03] <fantasai> jgraham: So our devs can't patch the tests
  264. # [06:03] <r12a> q+
  265. # [06:03] * Zakim sees gsnedders, r12a on the speaker queue
  266. # [06:03] <fantasai> SimonSapin: CSS tests have a build system
  267. # [06:03] <fantasai> jgraham: The build system changes the tests
  268. # [06:03] <fantasai> r12a: Do we still need that?
  269. # [06:03] <fantasai> r12a: It was introduced years ago when we had to deal with XHTML-only implementations
  270. # [06:03] <fantasai> gsnedders: Part of it was to get of CR
  271. # [06:04] <fantasai> fantasai: Was not just getting out of CR, but also that we wanted the tests to be able to run in more CSS implementations than just browsers
  272. # [06:05] <gsnedders> fantasai: we can probably change the build system at this point o that the HTML copy of the tests is just a pass through, we do need to parse it to extract the mtadata but we can probably change that
  273. # [06:07] <fantasai> ...
  274. # [06:07] <fantasai> gsnedders: Need that, also need accepting review from other organizations
  275. # [06:07] * gsnedders hopes he's manageing to scribe fantasai well enough :)
  276. # [06:07] <fantasai> s/gsnedders/jgraham/
  277. # [06:07] <fantasai> ....
  278. # [06:07] <fantasai> rniwa: I have oposite problem, get reviews where need to change the test, and dont' have time to go back and fix the test.
  279. # [06:08] <fantasai> Florian: Depending on who's reviewing the test, can get comments on "would be better to fix this, but not necessary" vs. "this test is incorrect"
  280. # [06:08] <gsnedders> ack gsnedders
  281. # [06:08] * Zakim sees r12a on the speaker queue
  282. # [06:08] * gsnedders has totally forgotten what he was going to say
  283. # [06:08] <r12a> q-
  284. # [06:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  285. # [06:08] <fantasai> ?: Same way that browsers reviewing patches, also need to review tests
  286. # [06:09] <fantasai> fantasai: I've noticed in a lot of cases, tests aren't reviewed, just "yay, you have tests, good good check it in"
  287. # [06:09] <JohnJansen> q?
  288. # [06:09] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  289. # [06:09] <fantasai> jgraham: Once we have tests running everywhere, breakage on a different impl will highlight test errors
  290. # [06:10] <fantasai> gsnedders: better to run it, because ppl runing tests will notice it
  291. # [06:10] <fantasai> Florian: If the tests fail when they should not, will catch it. If the tests pass when they should not, will not catch it.
  292. # [06:10] <gsnedders> == about:blank about:blank is a great test right?
  293. # [06:10] <fantasai> Florian: e.g. test that written to not fail
  294. # [06:12] <fantasai> fantasai: I think it's fine to go with this approach for browser vendors in our community, just need to be clear that W3C tests might not be correct, need to read spec when implementing
  295. # [06:13] <fantasai> fantasai: I'm concerned that people will try to fix implementation to match the tests instead of reporting errors in the tests
  296. # [06:13] <fantasai> fantasai: Esp. implementers in China, Japan, places that don't speak English and aren't as wlel integrated into this community
  297. # [06:13] <fantasai> gsnedders: What do people need to get this to work/
  298. # [06:14] <fantasai> jgraham: automate more tests
  299. # [06:14] <fantasai> ...
  300. # [06:15] <fantasai> jgraham: Need to make it easy for people to fix tests locally and upstream the fixes
  301. # [06:16] <fantasai> [discussion about out-of-date documentation]
  302. # [06:16] <fantasai> JohnJansen: Having documentation all in one place makes it easy to integrate tests
  303. # [06:16] <fantasai> JohnJansen: We import tests ever week, run them every day
  304. # [06:16] <fantasai> JohnJansen: Our automation for CSS tests is screenshot based, very problematic, want to switch to reftests
  305. # [06:16] <fantasai> JohnJansen: It's hard for us
  306. # [06:17] <fantasai> JohnJansen: There's tribal knowledge necesary to contribute to CSSWG tests
  307. # [06:17] <fantasai> gsnedders: So need to make it easier to contribute tests
  308. # [06:19] * Quits: fwtnb (~fwtnb@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  309. # [06:19] <fantasai> rniwa: Make it easier for browser vendors to sync
  310. # [06:19] <fantasai> rniwa: Need to import all tests automatically
  311. # [06:19] <fantasai> rniwa: Not set by set
  312. # [06:20] * Quits: plh (plehegar@public.cloak) ("Leaving")
  313. # [06:20] <fantasai> fantasai: Mozilla has a directory that gets automatically synced, but nobody puts tests into that directory for some reason
  314. # [06:21] <fantasai> ?: For blink, isn't about import directories, but about it being on a different server
  315. # [06:21] <fantasai> ?: Because of special headers etc.
  316. # [06:21] <jyasskin> s/?/mikewest/
  317. # [06:21] <jyasskin> s/mikewest/mkwst/
  318. # [06:21] <fantasai> mikewest: Setting up a server is historically difficult
  319. # [06:22] <fantasai> jgraham: The difficulty at Mozilla has been that people are more familiar with existing tools, so use Mozilla-specific tools instead of wpt
  320. # [06:22] <fantasai> jgraham: Or they need browser-specific APis
  321. # [06:23] <fantasai> mkwst: Some layout tests we use browser-speciic stuff, could possibly be done with DOM but very tricky
  322. # [06:23] <fantasai> JohnJansen: Blinks' layout tests require internal calls
  323. # [06:23] <fantasai> mkwst: We have things we wnat to do to set up browser in certain ways, need to use internal APIs
  324. # [06:23] <fantasai> jyasskin: No consensus on standardizing these APis
  325. # [06:23] <fantasai> jgraham: Historically ppl hesitant to standardize these APIs
  326. # [06:24] <fantasai> rniwa: Click event, etc. that coudl be done through webdriver
  327. # [06:24] <fantasai> rniwa: halfway there
  328. # [06:24] <fantasai> rniwa: can add more of that stuff
  329. # [06:24] <fantasai> rniwa: tricky ones, e.g. geolocation
  330. # [06:24] <fantasai> rniwa: I'd imagine that feature would be very useful for random websites, too
  331. # [06:24] <fantasai> rniwa: Let's say your'e trying to show UI based on location
  332. # [06:24] <fantasai> rniwa: if you could tell browser to pretend it's in Japan could be useful
  333. # [06:25] <jyasskin> q+
  334. # [06:25] * Zakim sees jyasskin on the speaker queue
  335. # [06:25] <fantasai> jgraham: Class of features would be useful for adding to web driver
  336. # [06:25] * fantasai q+
  337. # [06:25] * Zakim sees jyasskin, fantasai on the speaker queue
  338. # [06:25] <fantasai> jgraham: There's also a class of really internal stuff, that nobody wants to expose to authors
  339. # [06:25] <fantasai> jgraham: Like "now trigger a garbage collection", which would be a disaster to have on the web
  340. # [06:25] <fantasai> jgraham: That's the thing where ppl go, well since I need to use this interal API in 1/10 tests, will write all the tests using that API
  341. # [06:25] <fantasai> mkwst: Also test that for convenience, will print things from browser internals
  342. # [06:26] <fantasai> mkwst: For resource loading e.g.
  343. # [06:26] <fantasai> mkwst: We wouldn't want that on the web
  344. # [06:26] <fantasai> mkwst: There are class of thigns we want to test
  345. # [06:26] <fantasai> mkwst: Hard to test with content-level apis
  346. # [06:28] <fantasai> fantasai: For tests where we have the ability, we need to address people writing tests in the wrong format without any real excuse
  347. # [06:28] <fantasai> fantasai: So how do we do that?
  348. # [06:28] <fantasai> [discussion of review policies requiring tests]
  349. # [06:28] <fantasai> s/tests/tests to be in the right format/
  350. # [06:28] <fantasai> jgraham: For Servo, policy is if you can write a test that we can upstream, do it.
  351. # [06:29] <fantasai> jgraham: If you can't, use the same harness if policy, but put it into a different directory
  352. # [06:29] <fantasai> jgraham: But Servo doesn't have a history, devs haven't learned
  353. # [06:29] <fantasai> jgraham: Problem with Google, and Mozilla etc. then have 500 engineers, whov'e been doign something different for 10 years
  354. # [06:30] <fantasai> fantasai: If we can get just the reviewers to switch over and enforce that switch on the patches they review, then we can make that shift happen
  355. # [06:30] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
  356. # [06:30] <fantasai> jgraham: Need to make it easy enough for the reviewers to do that, so if it's hard currently need to fix that.
  357. # [06:30] <fantasai> Florian: We also have presto-testo repo with lots of tests
  358. # [06:30] <fantasai> jgraham: There has been some effort
  359. # [06:31] <fantasai> Florian: There's still 80,000 files in it
  360. # [06:31] <fantasai> gsnedders: Not much interesting
  361. # [06:31] * Quits: bhill2 (~bhill2@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  362. # [06:31] <fantasai> gsnedders, jgraham: Let's keep talking about this
  363. # [06:31] <fantasai> jgraham: feel free to chat with us
  364. # [06:31] <fantasai> jgraham: Discussion is on public-test-infra@w3.org
  365. # [06:32] <fantasai> jgraham: CSS also has public-css-testsuite@w3.org
  366. # [06:32] <fantasai> gsnedders: Relatively low traffic atm
  367. # [06:33] * Joins: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak)
  368. # [06:33] * Quits: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  369. # [06:33] <fantasai> 1. Change the build system at CSSWG
  370. # [06:33] <fantasai> 2. Fixing ttwf documentation to make CSSWG testing info findable and up-to-date
  371. # [06:33] <fantasai> 3. Automate more tests
  372. # [06:33] <fantasai> 4. Infrastructure for automating manual tests in cross-browser way
  373. # [06:33] <fantasai> 5. Get browser vendors to agree that all new tests should be wpt/testharness/reftest format
  374. # [06:33] <fantasai> rniwa: testharness is verbose
  375. # [06:34] <fantasai> jgraham: It's a lot better now
  376. # [06:34] * Quits: Florian (~Florian@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  377. # [06:34] <jyasskin> FWIW, Blink folks _do_ write tests in testharness, but so many things are impossible there.
  378. # [06:34] * Quits: r12a (rishida@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  379. # [06:35] <fantasai> need to reduce required metadata in tests
  380. # [06:36] <fantasai> r12a: People leaving out assertions is problematic, can't tell what's being tested
  381. # [06:37] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: stop
  382. # [06:37] * RRSAgent is not logging
  383. # [06:38] * Joins: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak)
  384. # [06:38] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: make the minutes
  385. # [06:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-testing-minutes.html gsnedders
  386. # [06:38] * Quits: dom (dom@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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  411. # [08:06] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: make minutes public
  412. # [08:06] <RRSAgent> I'm not logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', gsnedders. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  413. # [08:07] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: make logs public
  414. # [08:07] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, gsnedders
  415. # [08:08] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: make the minutes
  416. # [08:08] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-testing-minutes.html gsnedders
  417. # [08:08] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak)
  418. # [08:08] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: plz halp
  419. # [08:08] <gsnedders> oh, public now
  420. # [08:09] <gsnedders> Meeting: Web Platform Testing
  421. # [08:09] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: Meeting: Web Platform Testing
  422. # [08:09] <RRSAgent> I'm not logging. I don't understand 'Meeting: Web Platform Testing', gsnedders. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  423. # [08:10] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: make the minutes
  424. # [08:10] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-testing-minutes.html gsnedders
  425. # [08:10] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: on
  426. # [08:10] * RRSAgent is logging
  427. # [08:10] * Joins: plh (plehegar@public.cloak)
  428. # [08:10] <gsnedders> Meeting: Web Platform Testing
  429. # [08:10] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: off
  430. # [08:10] * RRSAgent is not logging
  431. # [08:11] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: make the minutes
  432. # [08:11] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-testing-minutes.html gsnedders
  433. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> gsnedders, yeah, usually you just want to do "rrsagent, make logs public" to set the access on it
  434. # [08:13] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: just the few minutes for that to take effect
  435. # [08:13] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: leave
  436. # [08:13] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
  437. # [08:13] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak)
  438. # [08:15] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak)
  439. # [08:15] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-testing-irc
  440. # [08:15] <gsnedders> Chair: gsnedders
  441. # [08:16] <gsnedders> ACTION: Change the build system at CSSWG
  442. # [08:16] * RRSAgent records action 1
  443. # [08:16] <gsnedders> ACTION: Fixing ttwf documentation to make CSSWG testing info findable and up-to-date
  444. # [08:16] * RRSAgent records action 2
  445. # [08:16] <gsnedders> ACTION: Automate more tests
  446. # [08:16] * RRSAgent records action 3
  447. # [08:16] <gsnedders> ACTION: Infrastructure for automating manual tests in cross-browser way
  448. # [08:16] * RRSAgent records action 4
  449. # [08:16] <gsnedders> ACTION: Get browser vendors to agree that all new tests should be wpt (testharness/reftest) format
  450. # [08:16] * RRSAgent records action 5
  451. # [08:16] <gsnedders> ACTION: Reduce metadata requirements in CSSTS
  452. # [08:16] * RRSAgent records action 6
  453. # [08:17] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: make the minutes
  454. # [08:17] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-testing-minutes.html gsnedders
  455. # [08:18] * Joins: chitra (~chitra@public.cloak)
  456. # [08:19] <gsnedders> Present: Florian JohnJansen SimonSapin dom fantasai gsnedders jgraham jyasskin kawai mkwst ojan r12a rniwa shoko yosuke
  457. # [08:19] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: make the minutes
  458. # [08:19] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-testing-minutes.html gsnedders
  459. # [08:20] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: quit
  460. # [08:20] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'quit', gsnedders. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  461. # [08:20] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: off
  462. # [08:20] * RRSAgent is not logging
  463. # [08:20] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: quit
  464. # [08:20] <RRSAgent> I'm not logging. I don't understand 'quit', gsnedders. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  465. # [08:20] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: leave
  466. # [08:20] <RRSAgent> I'm staying, gsnedders; no access has been specified for the meeting record
  467. # [08:20] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: make the minutes public
  468. # [08:20] <RRSAgent> I'm not logging. I don't understand 'make the minutes public', gsnedders. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  469. # [08:20] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: make logs public
  470. # [08:20] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, gsnedders
  471. # [08:20] <gsnedders> RRSAgent: leave
  472. # [08:20] <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-testing-actions.rdf :
  473. # [08:20] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Change the build system at CSSWG [1]
  474. # [08:20] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-testing-irc#T07-15-59
  475. # [08:20] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Fixing ttwf documentation to make CSSWG testing info findable and up-to-date [2]
  476. # [08:20] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-testing-irc#T07-16-06
  477. # [08:21] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Automate more tests [3]
  478. # [08:21] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-testing-irc#T07-16-14
  479. # [08:21] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Infrastructure for automating manual tests in cross-browser way [4]
  480. # [08:21] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-testing-irc#T07-16-23
  481. # [08:21] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Get browser vendors to agree that all new tests should be wpt (testharness/reftest) format [5]
  482. # [08:21] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-testing-irc#T07-16-39
  483. # [08:21] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Reduce metadata requirements in CSSTS [6]
  484. # [08:21] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-testing-irc#T07-16-46
  485. # [08:21] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrsagent@public.cloak)
  486. # [08:21] <gsnedders> [normal service will resume]
  487. # [08:23] <gsnedders> Zakim: leave
  488. # [08:32] <jgraham> Zakim: Bye
  489. # [08:32] <jgraham> Zakim, bye
  490. # [08:32] <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Florian, JohnJansen, SimonSapin, dom, fantasai, gsnedders, jgraham, jyasskin, kawai, mkwst, ojan, r12a, rniwa, shoko, yosuke
  491. # [08:32] * Parts: Zakim (zakim@public.cloak)
  492. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> oh, Ojan is there at TPAC?
  493. # [08:36] <jgraham> Yeah, I briefly saw him in that one meeting
  494. # [08:37] <MikeSmith> great
  495. # [08:38] * Joins: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak)
  496. # [08:40] * gsnedders isn't entirely sure about that list of attendees but it's a good start
  497. # [08:44] <gsnedders> jgraham: do you guys have any requirements about reftest manifests? is having the metadata in the file fine? I assume it makes it harder for you to upstream some stuff which doesn't have it inline?
  498. # [08:46] <jgraham> gsnedders: for servo I run it using wptrunner, which extracts the metadata from the file just like for wpt
  499. # [08:46] <jgraham> I dunno what dbaron does for gecko
  500. # [08:46] <jgraham> (but I would consider deprecating his stuff…)
  501. # [08:48] <gsnedders> where should I ask? #content?
  502. # [08:48] * gsnedders still doesn't really know the lines between IRC channels
  503. # [08:48] <jgraham> #developers? Or just find him? I guess there is probably #layout too
  504. # [08:48] <jgraham> #content is morally equivalent to #docxs
  505. # [08:49] * Parts: SimonSapin (~simon@public.cloak) (Bye)
  506. # [08:50] <gsnedders> That means finding where on earth he is IRL :)
  507. # [08:50] <gsnedders> I mean I presume somewhere /near/ here.
  508. # [09:04] * Quits: kawai (~kawai@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  509. # [09:05] * Quits: JohnJansen (~JohnJansen@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  510. # [09:11] * Quits: jyasskin (~textual@public.cloak) ("My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…")
  511. # [09:18] * Quits: bhill2 (~bhill2@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  512. # [09:18] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@public.cloak) (Client closed connection)
  513. # [09:22] * Quits: dom (dom@public.cloak) (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
  514. # [09:24] <jgraham> gsnedders: That totally isn't mostly about CSS
  515. # [09:42] <fantasai> jgraham: um, what?
  516. # [09:42] <fantasai> jgraham: dbaron is the module owner for layout
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  525. # [13:21] <jgraham> fantasai: I mean gsnedders' email, although I guess he calls out a couple of things that are mostly CSS
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  532. # [14:56] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Ms2ger opened pull request #2286: Remove prefixing code in IndexedDB/support.js. (master...idb-prefix) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/2286
  533. # [14:56] * Parts: gitbot (~gitbot@public.cloak)
  534. # [14:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: I thought the biggest take-aways were things that don't really apply to wpt?
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  536. # [15:02] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] gsnedders closed pull request #2286: Remove prefixing code in IndexedDB/support.js. (master...idb-prefix) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/2286
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  539. # [15:02] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] gsnedders pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/18c13a187f43...c857f5d09323
  540. # [15:02] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 9e8453c Ms2ger: Remove prefixing code in IndexedDB/support.js....
  541. # [15:02] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master c857f5d Geoffrey Sneddon: Merge pull request #2286 from Ms2ger/idb-prefix...
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  546. # [15:29] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, btw, xhtml is actually worse for some vendors than html... Servo is only just getting an xml parser
  547. # [15:31] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: yeah, I know
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  563. # [17:30] <Ms2ger> > if you really want to move the web forward please redirect https://www.w3.org/developers/ to https://developer.mozilla.org/ #Thanks #ThatIsAll
  564. # [17:30] <Ms2ger> Shots fired
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  573. # [19:32] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Velmont closed pull request #2265: Add test for IDBObjectStore.openKeyCursor() (master...indexeddb-store-keycursor) https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/2265
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  577. # [19:33] -gitbot:#testing- [web-platform-tests] Velmont pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/compare/c857f5d09323...4d064c58aab3
  578. # [19:33] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 6b25b94 Joshua Bell: Add test for IDBObjectStore.openKeyCursor()...
  579. # [19:33] -gitbot:#testing- web-platform-tests/master 4d064c5 Odin Hørthe Omdal: Merge pull request #2265 from inexorabletash/indexeddb-store-keycursor...
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