/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2008-08-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 21 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  30. # [07:02] <timeless> hello world
  31. # [07:02] <timeless> i finally sent my last comments on widgets-reqs, i'm very sorry about the delay in commenting
  32. # [07:03] * Joins: hober (ted@206.212.254.2)
  33. # [07:13] <marcos> Timeless, thanks!!!!
  34. # [07:14] <timeless> um, dev.w3.org doesn't like me
  35. # [07:14] <timeless> otherwise i was going to try to read landscape or something
  36. # [07:15] <marcos> Nah, leave the landscape for now
  37. # [07:15] <marcos> If you can help me patch a few of the holes in the packaging, that would be greatly appriciated
  38. # [07:15] <marcos> let me check in the latest draft
  39. # [07:16] <marcos> hmmm... looks like dev.w3.org is down
  40. # [07:16] <marcos> I'll email sysreq
  41. # [07:21] <marcos> Timeless, I still need you to respond to the other comments I made in response to the discussions we had on gmail chat. Is that ok?
  42. # [07:24] <timeless> um, lemme see if i can find it
  43. # [07:25] <timeless> err, and url for packaging? it doesn't seem to be in http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/
  44. # [07:25] <marcos> Yeah, dev is down. I've emailed the W3C team
  45. # [07:26] * timeless starves
  46. # [07:28] <timeless> can you give me a hint for how i can find your reply/pending bits
  47. # [07:28] <timeless> my mailbox isn't exactly well organized :)
  48. # [07:28] <marcos> no probs. one sec (or just search for from: marcos)
  49. # [07:29] <marcos> This is the email
  50. # [07:29] <marcos> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008AprJun/0440.html
  51. # [07:30] <timeless> that's in 21-37 i guess :)
  52. # [07:30] * timeless gives up and uses the web link
  53. # [07:30] <marcos> subject is [widgets] Timeless' Widgets Requirements LC
  54. # [07:31] <timeless> yeah, that worked better :)
  55. # [07:33] <marcos> hehe, reading your current comments... noting "which are just embarrassing" and "this doesn't look like something that should be published". LOL :D
  56. # [07:35] <marcos> My response to spelling mistakes is "I put them in on purpose to keep you on your toes:)"
  57. # [07:39] <timeless> i had a doc with something like "it is expected that no one will read this"
  58. # [07:40] <timeless> i think i actually had one person complain
  59. # [07:40] <timeless> i can't remember how many months it took before i got that one person
  60. # [07:40] <timeless> and it was from a publication group, not from the approval group
  61. # [07:41] <timeless> so i only need to deal w/ COMMENTS and QUESTIONS, i hope
  62. # [07:41] * timeless doesn't have time to read the rest
  63. # [07:42] <marcos> yep
  64. # [07:42] <marcos> that's fine
  65. # [07:44] * timeless sighs
  66. # [07:44] <timeless> the problem i have w/ commenting is people ask me to comment on their comments
  67. # [07:44] <timeless> it's a never ending battle
  68. # [07:44] <marcos> hehe. Yeah, sorry about that.
  69. # [07:44] <marcos> Promise not to do another round
  70. # [07:44] <timeless> i told someone to change an alarm clock pick sound dialog title
  71. # [07:45] <timeless> so they changed it
  72. # [07:45] <timeless> and sent me the new thing
  73. # [07:45] <timeless> which had an "add sound" option
  74. # [07:45] <timeless> sadly, "add" means "replace current custom sound", not "add another custom sound"
  75. # [07:45] <timeless> (there's no "remove")
  76. # [07:45] <timeless> so i decided to read their spec
  77. # [07:45] <timeless> which had something like 'beet' in one of the other human displayable strings
  78. # [07:45] <timeless> as a pair to 'been'
  79. # [07:46] <timeless> at which point i decided that i probably should read all of their strings...
  80. # [07:55] <marcos> woops. Yeah, once you go down one rat hole...
  81. # [07:57] <timeless> hrm, i need a way to say "ok" which doesn't sound like "ok" :o
  82. # [07:57] <timeless> "understood"?
  83. # [08:02] * Joins: heycam (cam@80.187.145.121)
  84. # [08:02] <marcos> got it
  85. # [08:05] <marcos> understood works
  86. # [08:05] <marcos> or "whatever..."
  87. # [08:05] <marcos> :)
  88. # [08:06] <timeless> hrm, interesting
  89. # [08:07] <timeless> motivation is no longer sentences
  90. # [08:07] <timeless> much better :)
  91. # [08:07] <timeless> wait, it kinda is
  92. # [08:07] <timeless> please lose the '.'s at the end :)
  93. # [08:07] <timeless> or oh!
  94. # [08:07] <timeless> yeah sorry, i'm generally reading markup in text/plain
  95. # [08:08] * timeless sighs
  96. # [08:08] <marcos> I'll add the "and" to those
  97. # [08:08] <timeless> ok
  98. # [08:09] <timeless> sorry, reading html hurts my eyes :)
  99. # [08:09] <timeless> i was actually reading the thing in a <textarea> using the windows High Contrast Black theme (in the dark)
  100. # [08:09] <marcos> You know, they have these things called "browsers" that actually render the HTML
  101. # [08:09] <timeless> yeah, those are what hurt my eyes :)
  102. # [08:09] <marcos> hehe
  103. # [08:10] <timeless> all these things in italics, and strnage lines all over the place...
  104. # [08:10] <timeless> and fancy colors....
  105. # [08:10] <marcos> Well, the aim was to have a pretty spec even to distract from the fact that the content might be crap.
  106. # [08:12] * marcos suddenly remembers all this is being logged >.<
  107. # [08:12] <timeless> and you wonder why i don't like using irc for this stuff :)
  108. # [08:12] <timeless> i'm not saying that html is a bad thing... i do work on a browser after all
  109. # [08:13] <timeless> it's just that sometimes when you're tired and trying to review language, the last thing you want are distractions
  110. # [08:13] <timeless> the good thinig about html is that it can degrade to plain text
  111. # [08:13] <timeless> unlike some of the other formats i've dealt with of late, which make reviewing much more painful
  112. # [08:13] <marcos> yeah, I totally get that. I use my screen reader for proof reading.
  113. # [08:13] <timeless> heh
  114. # [08:14] <marcos> Seriously, using both audio and visual helps quite a bit (in my case at least).
  115. # [08:15] <marcos> People think I'm rude when I go to meeting because I always have my headset on, but that's only because I use my screen reader religiously.
  116. # [08:16] <marcos> Maybe I'll start carrying around a blind walking cane so people will not bother me.
  117. # [08:17] <timeless> heh
  118. # [08:23] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  119. # [08:23] <marcos> MikeSmith, any chance you would check what's up with http://dev.w3.org?
  120. # [08:24] <marcos> Hi! btw :)
  121. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> marcos: will do
  122. # [08:24] <MikeSmith> you can't check in right now?
  123. # [08:25] <marcos> thanks Mike
  124. # [08:25] <marcos> no, just can't access it through the web... have not tried checking in
  125. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> or ah
  126. # [08:25] <MikeSmith> ah
  127. # [08:26] <marcos> Attempting a check in
  128. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> they did some maintenance on the machine yesterday or day before
  129. # [08:26] <marcos> checking successful
  130. # [08:26] <MikeSmith> yeah, everything seems to be working from command line OK
  131. # [08:27] <marcos> yeah, I guess just the web interface is down
  132. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> yeah, so seems to be a problem just with the dev.w3 web server
  133. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> anyway, will wake up the system team
  134. # [08:27] <marcos> I sent them an email (sysreq)
  135. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> oh, OK
  136. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> well, then we just got to wait I guess
  137. # [08:28] <marcos> about an hour ago. No problems. Probably all sleeping
  138. # [08:28] <MikeSmith> I don't have shell access to that machine myself
  139. # [08:31] <marcos> bb in 10
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  144. # [10:13] <marcos> Arve, see latest twitter from W3C Widgets. Is that ok?
  145. # [10:13] <arve> makes perfect sense
  146. # [10:13] <marcos> great
  147. # [10:14] <arve> forces me to read completely up on WebIDL, though
  148. # [10:14] <marcos> me too. That was the motivation for including it :)
  149. # [10:14] <arve> right now, I'm reading up on plane crashes, though :P
  150. # [10:15] <marcos> I'm sure HeyCam will be more than happy to proof read any Web IDL we attempt to write :D
  151. # [10:15] * Joins: anne (annevk@213.199.146.138)
  152. # [10:15] <marcos> Another plane crash?
  153. # [10:15] <Dashiva> Oh, Garrett. So confrontational.
  154. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> has Garrett always been this way?
  155. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> he seems to just have started going off on people lately
  156. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> or maybe I'm just noticing it now
  157. # [10:17] <heycam> yeah, i'm sure he could point his points across more politely
  158. # [10:19] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: Not sure. It's easy to not notice people when they're not behaving in a way to be noticed :)
  159. # [10:20] <arve> marcos: madrid
  160. # [10:21] <arve> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7573674.stm
  161. # [10:27] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  162. # [10:28] <arve> marcos: WebIDL is indeed good
  163. # [10:29] <arve> I can't recall whether constructors could be defined in OMGIDL
  164. # [10:29] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  165. # [10:30] <timeless> fwiw, in case people want access to it, i have a quasi mirror of dev.w3 (requires ip whitelist entry)... it's not likely to be maintained but if dev.w3 is down and you need to see a page, it can try to help...
  166. # [10:31] <marcos> Arve, yikes
  167. # [10:34] <marcos> Arve, yeah... I'm sure there were lots of good reasons to abandon OMGIDL and create WebIDL
  168. # [10:34] <timeless> isn't OMGIDL the idl everyone loves to fork? :)
  169. # [10:35] <marcos> heh
  170. # [10:35] <arve> marcos: I'm reading the webidl spec now, and I will indeed use it
  171. # [10:36] <marcos> Great, then making it a MUST requirement was the correct choice.
  172. # [10:37] <heycam> arve, please send comments at will...
  173. # [10:37] <heycam> there's a bunch in there that is wrong and needs changing
  174. # [10:37] <heycam> in particular, the two big speculative sections on operation overloading and the overloading resolution mechanism, and how multiple inheritance is handled
  175. # [10:37] <arve> heycam: while that is probably true, I'm not yet ready to comment
  176. # [10:38] <arve> but on exceptions
  177. # [10:38] <arve> there are cases, for instance with file i/o, where the exceptions possible on any single method may be from a (large) set of exceptions
  178. # [10:38] <arve> it's a bit unclear to me how that can be handled
  179. # [10:40] <heycam> arve, do you mean how would you specify that in the idl?
  180. # [10:40] <heycam> void f() raises(ExceptionBlah, ExceptionFoo, ExceptionWhatever);
  181. # [10:40] <heycam> there's currently no support in the IDL for specifying a DOMException code... that may be useful to add
  182. # [10:40] <timeless> um
  183. # [10:41] <timeless> i don't want to write hudnreds of exceptions
  184. # [10:41] <timeless> into raises (...)
  185. # [10:41] <arve> timeless: my point exactly
  186. # [10:41] <timeless> arve: yeah, just clarifying :)
  187. # [10:41] <heycam> but really, since when do functions raise hundreds of exceptions?
  188. # [10:41] <heycam> usually it is just one (DOMException)
  189. # [10:41] <heycam> also, at the moment, it's optional to include the raises clause
  190. # [10:41] <timeless> heycam: avre's talking about file io :)
  191. # [10:41] <heycam> and it's conforming to raise an exception that isn't listed in the raises clause
  192. # [10:42] <heycam> i haven't looked at the file io spec, so i'm not sure what exceptions it raises
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  194. # [10:42] <timeless> avre: note that ideally you have trees of exceptions
  195. # [10:42] <timeless> so you should only need to list a couple of classes
  196. # [10:42] <Hixie> i have no intention of ever including the raises() line in my IDL, fwiw.
  197. # [10:42] <timeless> and everythign else is derived
  198. # [10:42] <timeless> otoh, i'm not sure it ever works
  199. # [10:42] <timeless> it's a cute thing, and i'm amazed that java tries
  200. # [10:43] <arve> Hixie: I have my thoughts on the matter, but I'd like to hear yours
  201. # [10:43] <heycam> i also dislike declaring exceptions (and checked exceptions in languages)
  202. # [10:43] <timeless> but i'd probably go w/ hixie's route
  203. # [10:44] <timeless> cvs update: Updating LOCKS/LOCKS
  204. # [10:44] * timeless sighs
  205. # [10:44] <timeless> perhaps this isn't going to work so well
  206. # [10:45] <timeless> cvs update: Updating LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/2001/DOM-Test-Suite/java/junit
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  209. # [10:45] <timeless> this looks like the cvs server is trying to DoS the cvs clients
  210. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> timeless: most of what we need is just in /2006/webapi and /2006/waf and /html5
  211. # [10:46] <timeless> http://mxr-test.konigsberg.mozilla.org/dev-w3/source/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/LOCKS/
  212. # [10:46] <timeless> in case people are curious (you'll need a whitelist ip address)
  213. # [10:47] <timeless> yeah... but i like having complete trees so i can deal w/ things later
  214. # [10:47] <tlr> timeless, is this with dev.w3.org?
  215. # [10:47] <timeless> yep
  216. # [10:48] <Hixie> arve: no thoughts really, i'm just not going to do it :-)
  217. # [10:48] <timeless> tlr: do you have anything to do w/ dev.w3.org?
  218. # [10:48] <timeless> i'm letting this checkout run because i have 50gb to spare and can afford to look at it later to see what damage your cvs server can do to unfortunate clients :)
  219. # [10:49] <tlr> timeless, not really, but I passed your ovservation on to somebody else who was complaining about the server being unresponsive
  220. # [10:50] <tlr> in fact, it might be that you better stop your checkout and try again later
  221. # [10:50] <timeless> ok, stopped
  222. # [10:50] <timeless> it's odd
  223. # [10:50] <timeless> afaict the server really thinks those directories exist(ed)
  224. # [10:51] <tlr> timeless, out of curiosity -- what platform are you on?
  225. # [10:51] <timeless> centos i think
  226. # [10:51] <tlr> ah, so Linux
  227. # [10:52] <timeless> my corporate box runs opensolaris and hosts the same general software
  228. # [10:52] <timeless> except it can't reach the internet, which makes cvs operations from public servers "hard" :)
  229. # [10:52] <tlr> anyway, this is not a win95 fat file system that we're talking about, but a decent one that can deal with several dots in directory names, and all that
  230. # [10:52] <tlr> just trying to isolate where the likely cause of weirdness lies
  231. # [10:52] <timeless> well... what's interesting to me...
  232. # [10:52] <tlr> if unix then goto borken-server
  233. # [10:52] <tlr> ;-)
  234. # [10:52] <tlr> yes?
  235. # [10:53] <timeless> is that
  236. # [10:53] <timeless> http://mxr-test.konigsberg.mozilla.org/dev-w3/source/LOCKS/
  237. # [10:53] <timeless> and
  238. # [10:53] <timeless> http://mxr-test.konigsberg.mozilla.org/dev-w3/source/LOCKS/LOCKS/
  239. # [10:53] <timeless> don't match
  240. # [10:53] <tlr> can't access these
  241. # [10:54] <timeless> the former has 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007,
  242. # [10:54] <tlr> I get something about needing to be whitelisted, and all that
  243. # [10:54] <timeless> yeah, one sec :)
  244. # [10:55] <timeless> ok, you should be whitelisted
  245. # [10:55] <tlr> so, what IP address *did* you whitelist?
  246. # [10:56] <timeless> 71. something and um... 119. something
  247. # [10:56] <timeless> and now i see i need to add a 83 and a 128
  248. # [11:00] * marcos runs off to cook up a Thai style storm... be back for Teleconf at in 2 hours.
  249. # [11:02] * Quits: marcos (marcos@131.181.148.104) (Quit: marcos)
  250. # [11:07] <timeless> marcos... widgets Overview
  251. # [11:07] <timeless> How this Document is Organized
  252. # [11:07] <timeless> The first half ...
  253. # [11:08] <timeless> The second half ... is so burried in that paragraph that the overview exactly matches the document
  254. # [11:08] <timeless> and that you can't recognize the parallism is poor :(
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  315. # Session Close: Fri Aug 22 00:00:00 2008

The end :)