/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2008-09-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Sep 30 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  21. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> arve: saw your mention of WebKit-based Epiphany. You know there's a quite good WebKit-based browser UI that runs on Linux now (or any Qt environment) - Arora: http://code.google.com/p/arora/
  22. # [10:03] <MikeSmith> very easy to build
  23. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> I think it's even packaged for Debian now
  24. # [10:04] <mjs> epiphany-webkit also runs decently
  25. # [10:04] <mjs> as does Midori (another Gtk/WebKit browser)
  26. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> last time I tried epiphany-webkit I found it unusable
  27. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> but I've not tried since
  28. # [10:06] <arve> MikeSmith: IIRC, it drags half of KDE with it
  29. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> *shrug*
  30. # [10:07] <mjs> I'm not a Linux guy, so I guess I should not really opine on these things
  31. # [10:07] <arve> hm, no, it didn't
  32. # [10:07] <arve> I'll try it
  33. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> arve: if you get to using it and find any bugs or have questions, there's an #arora channel on freenode.. the main developer is usually there (icefox/ Benjamin Meyer) as well as others
  34. # [10:12] <arve> it seems to lag behind the other two webkit browsers
  35. # [10:13] <arve> transformations and animations didn't work, for instance
  36. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> arve: that may be because that stuffs not working yet in QtWebKit .. or you may need to check out latest WebKit source and build against that
  37. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> http://svn.webkit.org/repository/webkit/trunk
  38. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> or against WebKit nightlies for Linux
  39. # [10:17] <mjs> Qt 4.4 is based on an older WebKit
  40. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> you can build against a different QtWebkit version by doing "export QT_WEBKIT=webkit_trunk" and setting WEBKITDIR, pointing to wherever you got your latest WebKit workspace/nightly checked-out/built/installed
  41. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> http://code.google.com/p/arora/wiki/source
  42. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> you can also build against Qt 4.5 snapshots if you care to
  43. # [10:39] <arve> marcos: why delete the preference store?
  44. # [10:39] <arve> let's say you have a widget implementation that doesn't implement html5 -- you're stuck without a storage API then
  45. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> arve: the implementation would not need to implement all of HTML5 -- just the relevant storage stuff
  46. # [10:48] <arve> MikeSmith: my point is that there are unwebby widget implementations as-is
  47. # [10:48] <arve> Yahoo widgets, for instance
  48. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> would the preferences-store spec be easier for those implementations to add support for than the HTML5 storage stuff would be?
  49. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> are those unwebby things DOM-based?
  50. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> the HTML5 storage spec seems not so complicated to implement (relative to others parts of the HTML5 spec at least)
  51. # [10:50] <arve> for someone that doesn't neccesarily implement window as the global object, yes
  52. # [10:51] <arve> having said that, I am not 100% sure we SHOULD cater to such implementations
  53. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> arve: yeah, I'd guess you'll find little disagreement in the webapps WG about that
  54. # [10:58] <arve> having said that, there might also be other requirements
  55. # [10:58] <arve> such as encrypted storage
  56. # [13:12] * Disconnected
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  58. # [13:12] * Rejoined channel #webapps
  59. # [13:12] * Topic is 'Web Apps WG October 20-21 f2f; register @ http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2008/ by October 12'
  60. # [13:12] * Set by ArtB on Mon Sep 29 13:29:58
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  63. # [13:34] <marcos> Arve, we could build on HTML5's API. But I think we should use the same interface.
  64. # [13:35] <arve> marcos: I'm not sure I agree, but I can mark it as "at risk"
  65. # [13:36] <marcos> As MikeSmith said, the point is just to implement that one feature of HTML5. We can just lift the interface completely from HTML5 and just make sure we put a note in our spec that says that this is the same a HTML5's storage.
  66. # [13:37] <arve> I'm making another late-minute change, btw
  67. # [13:38] <arve> attribute unsigned short viewState;
  68. # [13:38] <arve> (hiding, fullscreen, window, "default")
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  73. # [15:10] <marcos> Arve, I'm also becoming a bit concerned about hasFeature and if we really need it.
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  77. # [15:57] <arve> marcos: elaborate?
  78. # [15:58] <marcos> Once an author requests a something through feature, then the API should just automatically appear bound to the appropriate object (i.e. window).
  79. # [15:58] <marcos> For example..
  80. # [15:59] <marcos> <feature id="http://a.com/camera" /> then just becomes window.camera.
  81. # [15:59] <arve> not neccesarily possible
  82. # [16:00] <arve> let me elaborate
  83. # [16:00] <marcos> and then, instead of hasFeature you just use if(window.camera)
  84. # [16:00] <arve> let's say that such a feature does not expose an interface, but instead creates a custom protocol, say p2ptv that could extend <video>
  85. # [16:00] <arve> it has no other interfaces, and is merely compatible with HTML5 in every way
  86. # [16:01] <arve> and the application wanted to use this protocol, with http as a fallback
  87. # [16:01] <arve> how would you do this?
  88. # [16:05] <marcos> if I'm understanding what you are saying correctly, you would do that with <feature id="http://p2ptv.org/someAPI">
  89. # [16:06] <marcos> if you wanted some kind of proprietary biding to happen to some DLL or Jar, you would need some kind of src attribute
  90. # [16:07] <arve> marcos: hasFeature is simply a function to check the computed value of <feature id>
  91. # [16:07] <arve> I still need to know whether that preference was allowed or not
  92. # [16:08] <marcos> you know if it is available. if (!window.camera) { ... }else{ ... i haz camera.. }
  93. # [16:08] <arve> if (hasFeature('p2ptv'){ url = "p2ptv://lots/of/pr0n"} else { url="http://lotsofpr0n.com/" }
  94. # [16:09] <arve> $('myVideoElement').src = url
  95. # [16:10] <arve> In the video case, I know I, theoretically, could do this in markup, using <source>
  96. # [16:10] <marcos> yeah, that is a good use case
  97. # [16:11] <arve> ... but in a scripted player, this is so much easier than always having to specify every URL
  98. # [16:12] <marcos> Could we still keep hasFeature, but still allow static binding on the window objects?
  99. # [16:12] <marcos> s/objects/object
  100. # [16:12] <marcos> that way, we get the best of both worlds
  101. # [16:13] <marcos> hasFeature becomes a convenience method that allows for checking for the availability of a precise API.
  102. # [16:13] <arve> I see nothing in feature/hasFeature that *prevents* it
  103. # [16:14] <arve> we should recommend, btw, that the feature URL is a locator, with a human-readable spec on the other end
  104. # [16:15] <marcos> True. The model I has proposed was a little different (it actually did prevent it). I agree.
  105. # [16:15] <marcos> I'll change my model to suit
  106. # [16:16] <marcos> So the URL locator should point to, for instance, http://www.w3.org/TR/geoloc ?
  107. # [16:17] <arve> for instance, yes
  108. # [16:17] <arve> perhaps MAY
  109. # [16:22] <marcos> Namespace people might not like that, but too bad :)
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  111. # [16:24] <arve> so let's not call it a "namespace"
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  113. # [16:25] <marcos> I'm ok with that too.
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  116. # [17:31] <arve> hm, think I should probably go to http://www.w3.org/2008/security-ws/
  117. # [17:33] <arve> and Dominique must have the best @w3.org e-mail address possible
  118. # [17:50] <tlr> yes, arve, you should
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  121. # [18:37] <arve> tlr: I've already hinted at chaals
  122. # [18:37] <tlr> excellent
  123. # [18:39] <arve> not that travelling suits me terribly well these days
  124. # [18:42] * MikeSmith is away: Less talk, more pimp walk.
  125. # [18:46] <ArtB> avre, marcos - Stuart Williams says someone from the TAG can meet with us in Mandelieu re widget: scheme
  126. # [18:46] <marcos> great
  127. # [18:47] <ArtB> actually he said "several members" :-)
  128. # [18:47] <ArtB> our agenda is http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/WidgetsMandelieuAgenda
  129. # [18:47] <ArtB> s/our/our current/
  130. # [18:48] * marcos takes a look
  131. # [18:48] <ArtB> this seems like a relatively high priority for the P&C spec so I'm inclined to propose Monday
  132. # [18:48] <ArtB> do you have a pref, marcos or Arve?
  133. # [18:48] <marcos> I have no pref
  134. # [18:48] <marcos> Whatever is good for them
  135. # [18:48] <arve> no pref
  136. # [18:50] * Parts: anne (annevk@12.198.177.3)
  137. # [18:56] * ArtB wonders if Josh/timeless ever responded to Roy re widget: vs cid: (<http://www.w3.org/mid/1DC5780F-5F13-4B89-AAEA-BA1E64902056@gbiv.com>)
  138. # [19:39] <marcos> Hixie, when you have a minute, can you possibly give WebApps an update on the state of the DOM storage API in HTML5? is it stable(ish) or do you see it changing over the next year? It would be great if you could reply to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0746.html
  139. # [19:45] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
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  141. # [19:55] <ArtB> marcos, why not remove the RelaxNG stuff from the spec, put it in a separate doc and then the spec would just have a link to the doc?
  142. # [19:56] <marcos> I think we will do that for later. For now, i want it in there so people can review it easily (As DOM did and was able to find errors)
  143. # [19:57] <marcos> s/DOM/Dom
  144. # [19:57] <marcos> hehe, get so used to typing DOM that I always do it in upper case.
  145. # [20:08] <ArtB> "he who does the work holds the `trump` card" :-)
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  148. # [21:00] <marcos> or "it's my party and I'll cry if I want to"?
  149. # [21:06] * marcos is sorry if that song is now continuously playing back in anyone's head!
  150. # [21:47] * Parts: anne (annevk@12.198.177.3)
  151. # [21:54] <Hixie> marcos: you can see the stability of any part of the html5 spec by looking at the annotations in the margins of the spec
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  155. # [22:48] <marcos> hixie, thanks.
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  157. # Session Close: Wed Oct 01 00:00:00 2008

The end :)