/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2008-10-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 20 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  11. # [06:28] <timeless> ok, i missed the fast train. I should be in mandelieu around 10a
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  20. # [09:07] <chaals> "agenda" http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/WebAppsMandelieuAgenda
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  22. # [09:11] <timeless> chaals: when's it start? :(
  23. # [09:13] <chaals> 9... in principle...
  24. # [09:13] <chaals> but most of the people we need are not here yet
  25. # [09:15] * Joins: arve (arve@81.253.40.219)
  26. # [09:19] <timeless> my train leaves in about 15m i'll arrive @mandelieu @9.45a. I'd still need to get to the hotel or my hotel+the hotel
  27. # [09:20] * timeless is sorry to not be on time
  28. # [09:20] * timeless is having lots of trouble dealing w/ trains
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  35. # [09:25] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-webapps-irc
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  37. # [09:26] <chaals> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/WebAppsMandelieuAgenda
  38. # [09:26] <chaals> Meeting: Web Apps (non-widgets)
  39. # [09:27] * Joins: marcos (marcos@81.253.42.80)
  40. # [09:27] <chaals> scribenick: anthony
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  44. # [09:30] <chaals> scribenick: anthony_
  45. # [09:31] <anthony_> CM: [Chaals introduces himself]
  46. # [09:31] * Quits: dino (dino@81.253.40.107) (Connection reset by peer)
  47. # [09:32] <chaals> AG: Anthony Grasso, editor of SVG Print
  48. # [09:32] * anne notices login with OpenID on the WebApps WG wiki
  49. # [09:32] <chaals> JS: Jonas Sicking
  50. # [09:32] <anthony_> JS: [Introduce's himself
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  52. # [09:32] * anne rejoices silently
  53. # [09:32] <anthony_> AB: [Introduces himself]
  54. # [09:32] <anthony_> CW: [Introduces himself]
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  58. # [09:34] <anthony_> ABat: [Introduces himself]
  59. # [09:35] <anthony_> EK: [Introduces himself]
  60. # [09:35] * Parts: kaz (Ashimura@128.30.52.28)
  61. # [09:35] <anthony_> AV: [Introduces himself]
  62. # [09:35] <anthony_> WL: [Introduces himself]
  63. # [09:35] <anthony_> CB: [Introduces himself]
  64. # [09:35] <anthony_> JR: [Introduces herself]
  65. # [09:35] <anthony_> NM: [Introduces himself]
  66. # [09:35] * chaals notes agenda again http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/WebAppsMandelieuAgenda
  67. # [09:36] <anthony_> IH: [Introduces himself]
  68. # [09:36] <anthony_> CM: Agenda has file upload draft
  69. # [09:36] <anthony_> ... progress events will be done tomorrow
  70. # [09:36] <anthony_> ... element traversal which we will do today if that's ok DS?
  71. # [09:36] <anthony_> DS: That's fine
  72. # [09:36] <anthony_> CM: DOM3 Events?
  73. # [09:36] <anthony_> DS: Tomorrow?
  74. # [09:37] <anthony_> CM: XHR1 today
  75. # [09:37] <anthony_> ... assorted proposals for new work
  76. # [09:37] <anthony_> ... timers proposal
  77. # [09:37] <anthony_> ... question of whether workers is done here
  78. # [09:37] <anthony_> ... we'll have workers for today
  79. # [09:38] <anthony_> ... Access control for cross site requests
  80. # [09:38] <anthony_> Topic: File Upload
  81. # [09:39] <anthony_> AR: Basically I've been working on the file upload spec
  82. # [09:39] <anthony_> ... there's been some feedback from Apple
  83. # [09:39] <anthony_> ... mainly just Apple about stating with a more basic set of features
  84. # [09:39] <anthony_> ... we can agree on
  85. # [09:39] <anthony_> ... there was feedback from Sync APIs from Mozilla
  86. # [09:39] <anthony_> ... Google made proposal for Sync APIs
  87. # [09:40] <anthony_> ... to obtain segments of files
  88. # [09:40] <anthony_> ... to break them up
  89. # [09:40] <anthony_> ... there are some concerns with Blog API
  90. # [09:40] <anthony_> ... Apple wants no I/O
  91. # [09:40] <anthony_> ... I don't think we will be considering Sync APIs for this spec
  92. # [09:41] <anthony_> ... I think it will be good to arrive at ASync APIS
  93. # [09:41] <anthony_> ... have discussions about file dialog
  94. # [09:41] <anthony_> IH: I think it would be helpful
  95. # [09:41] <anthony_> ... to come up with a set of requirements
  96. # [09:41] <anthony_> AR: I didn't get feedback on the list of my requirements
  97. # [09:41] <anthony_> DS: Did you put them in the wiki?
  98. # [09:41] <arve> [Question from the next room: why not a traditional file API?]
  99. # [09:42] <anthony_> AR: They are in the draft
  100. # [09:42] <Adam> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileUpload/publish/FileUpload.xhtml
  101. # [09:42] <arun> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileUpload/publish/FileUpload.xhtml#requirements
  102. # [09:42] <anthony_> AR: Adam put the right URI
  103. # [09:42] <anthony_> ... The next link is the requirements
  104. # [09:42] <anthony_> ... a good place to start is the review of these
  105. # [09:42] <anthony_> IH: Do you have in mind things like non-file system access
  106. # [09:43] <anthony_> ... e.g. hook up camera to the video element
  107. # [09:43] <anthony_> AR: There isn't a good requirement or illustrated use case
  108. # [09:43] <chaals> q+
  109. # [09:43] <anthony_> IH: Just want to make sure that you can extend the API
  110. # [09:43] <anthony_> ... not so much a use case, more so the long term
  111. # [09:44] <anthony_> ... want to be able to take the video camera the video element
  112. # [09:44] <anthony_> DS: It's possible that simply doesn't belong in this family of specs
  113. # [09:44] <anthony_> AR: Maybe possible but I was going to define a Blob interface here
  114. # [09:44] <anthony_> ... it would at least be one step closer to that
  115. # [09:44] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  116. # [09:45] <anthony_> ... plus I was to define the HTML file input element interface which would return a file list
  117. # [09:45] <anthony_> IH: We should interact on that
  118. # [09:45] <anthony_> JS: I feel like the right technical solution will be to have a stream primitive
  119. # [09:46] <nrmehta> q+
  120. # [09:46] * Zakim sees nrmehta on the speaker queue
  121. # [09:46] <karl> RRSAgent, make log public
  122. # [09:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, karl
  123. # [09:46] <anthony_> CM: Note that Opera has requirements to do that already
  124. # [09:46] <karl> rssagent, draft minutes
  125. # [09:46] <karl> rrsagent, draft minutes
  126. # [09:46] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-webapps-minutes.html karl
  127. # [09:47] <anthony_> ... I've been working on draft requirements
  128. # [09:47] <anthony_> AR: Could this spec define pieces that would be useful to have?
  129. # [09:47] <anthony_> CM: Potentially
  130. # [09:47] <anthony_> ... The current proposal for a file API seems limited
  131. # [09:47] <anthony_> ... we proposed a more complete file API
  132. # [09:47] <anthony_> ... to give recurring access to the file system
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  153. # [10:05] * karl notices the network is back
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  158. # [10:07] <Lachy> which IRC channel is this F2F using today?
  159. # [10:08] <Hixie> this one
  160. # [10:08] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.48.63)
  161. # [10:08] <Lachy> good :-)
  162. # [10:08] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  163. # [10:08] * gsnedders is finally online
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  166. # [10:11] * karl could someone tell the scribe the network is back
  167. # [10:12] * karl thanks hsivonen
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  169. # [10:12] * CWilso pings network
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  171. # [10:12] * gsnedders thinks it's nice having web access in a W3C meeting :P
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  173. # [10:13] * arun +1 gsnedders
  174. # [10:13] <chaals> [connectivity here is very flakey so far - so the logs will be very very randomised]
  175. # [10:13] * CWilso thinks the whole web thing is highly overrated.
  176. # [10:13] * Joins: Adam (adam.c.boy@81.253.47.34)
  177. # [10:13] * gsnedders apologizes for interrupting as an observer
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  182. # [10:14] * karl we can recreate the logs later on
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  186. # [10:16] * gsnedders we're officially useless!
  187. # [10:16] <anne> yay
  188. # [10:16] * gsnedders (or at least, everyone else is, I'm observer) :P
  189. # [10:17] * anne doesn't think it's useless to talk when it's not scribed...
  190. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> chaals, shepazu: are you minuting on this channel?
  191. # [10:18] <shepazu> MikeSmith: yes, but on a 5 minute break atm
  192. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> OK
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  201. # [10:37] <anthony_> IH: - Stream
  202. # [10:37] <anthony_> ... - File
  203. # [10:37] <anthony_> ... - and file system
  204. # [10:37] <anthony_> NM: If we move to streams
  205. # [10:37] <anthony_> ... length is not available
  206. # [10:37] <anthony_> ... if you upload things that don't have a length
  207. # [10:37] <anthony_> ... It also involves contact from the server
  208. # [10:37] <anthony_> ... which are the 3 different requirements
  209. # [10:37] <anthony_> AR: To Google’s credit the XHR extension that allows severs to send back blogs
  210. # [10:38] <anthony_> ... this may address your sever side requirement
  211. # [10:38] <anthony_> NM: My concern was about the length.
  212. # [10:38] <anthony_> AB: Any file size limitations?
  213. # [10:38] <anthony_> CM: None. Systems may implement for specific reasons.
  214. # [10:38] <anthony_> NM: For example I could have video running on my camera
  215. # [10:38] <anthony_> ... and I could stream that to a server
  216. # [10:38] <anthony_> ... there is length
  217. # [10:38] <anthony_> IH: We should treat streams and uploads separately
  218. # [10:38] <anthony_> ... focus on finite files
  219. # [10:38] <anthony_> ... what do we expose as Blob API.
  220. # [10:38] <anthony_> JS: There is also the first question that Apple has is
  221. # [10:38] <anthony_> ... do they want the Blob API
  222. # [10:38] <anthony_> ... There is no way of accessing the data
  223. # [10:38] <anthony_> IH: Makes sense to make incremental steps
  224. # [10:38] <anthony_> NM: Instead of completely slitting this up. What about creating temporary files on the fly
  225. # [10:39] <anthony_> ... say I want to capture a picture on my camera and I want to upload it.
  226. # [10:39] <anthony_> ... Whether it gets saved as a file the user doesn't care.
  227. # [10:39] <anthony_> ... Would be useful to have an intermediate for the API.
  228. # [10:39] <anthony_> ... For a while the atom protocol has been out one thing not supported in web browsers is
  229. # [10:39] <anthony_> ... the ability to upload file from XHR service
  230. # [10:39] <anthony_> AR: In fact that matches in part of what Apple proposes
  231. # [10:39] <anthony_> CM: Seems to be the fundamental thing that everyone wants.
  232. # [10:39] <anthony_> ... Use XHR to upload a file
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  237. # [10:43] <anthony_> AV: Flikr has an upload widget uses flash. Apples proposal allows replacement of the file object that gives Java control for example.
  238. # [10:43] <anthony_> AR: This gives an overload of the XHR send
  239. # [10:43] <anthony_> ... We would be addressing the upload problems in Flikr. Instead of giving another
  240. # [10:43] <anthony_> ... binary extension to upload.
  241. # [10:43] <anthony_> ... One of the advantages of non-browser based uploads was you can split the file
  242. # [10:43] <anthony_> ... up and do chunk uploads. Good for big files.
  243. # [10:43] <anthony_> ... for XHR you can see the progress.
  244. # [10:43] <anthony_> IH: What’s the use case
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  246. # [10:43] <anthony_> AB: At Boeing we made something that does large file uploads
  247. # [10:43] <anthony_> HS: There are also proxies that do that
  248. # [10:43] <anthony_> IH: You'd want to take a file and split it into max sizes
  249. # [10:43] <anthony_> AR: Which is the use case
  250. # [10:43] <anthony_> .. .this brings me back to Step one. I wont be perfectly happy to split out I/O notion of the spec
  251. # [10:43] <anthony_> ... Apple made points to strip them out.
  252. # [10:43] <anthony_> ... Apple made the further point that wouldn't be happy with Blob as v1.
  253. # [10:43] <anthony_> ... I think we should address the main use case which is overloading XHR.
  254. # [10:43] <anthony_> ... I haven't gotten technical reasons from Apple about why they are not happy with Blob v1.
  255. # [10:43] <anthony_> CM: My suggestion is given that we are in the stage of being rough draft.
  256. # [10:43] <anthony_> ... I think we have fairly clear resolution that we want to save the XHR case and
  257. # [10:43] <anthony_> ... get file input working
  258. # [10:43] <anthony_> AV: For the changes to XHR I would prefer those changes to happen in XHR.
  259. # [10:43] <anthony_> AR: I agree with that.
  260. # [10:43] <anthony_> CM: Is everyone in agreement
  261. # [10:43] <anthony_> RESOLUTION: That we are indeed aiming to solve the problem to upload a file using XHR
  262. # [10:43] <anthony_> IH: Is there are reason to have a separate file object and a separate blob object
  263. # [10:43] <anthony_> AR: Yes, the file deals with the file in its entirety
  264. # [10:43] <anthony_> IH: The problem arises when you want to upload a partial file
  265. # [10:44] <anthony_> NM: Not sure what IH's point is the file is not only in bytes but in metadata
  266. # [10:44] <anthony_> ... why is it useful for uploading the blob?
  267. # [10:44] <anthony_> JS: A blob is a collection of data where as the file has a content type and file name potentially
  268. # [10:44] <anthony_> ... both of which you want to send
  269. # [10:44] <anthony_> ... We would send just the byte stream of the file
  270. # [10:44] <anthony_> NM: I almost feel it's undefined to upload bytes without a type.
  271. # [10:44] <anthony_> AR: I agree, as sever app must know what's getting.
  272. # [10:44] <anthony_> NM: The file includes a Blob. There is clearly overlap there
  273. # [10:44] <anthony_> HS: How do you get the media type reliably? From an implementation point of view
  274. # [10:44] <anthony_> JS: We ask the OS. We give it a file and the OS looks it up.
  275. # [10:44] <anthony_> CM: It's necessarily reliable but it's a common thing
  276. # [10:44] <anthony_> AR: NM Said there is some redundancies in the interface
  277. # [10:44] <anthony_> ... unless you invoke the slice method on the blob they may match.
  278. # [10:44] <anthony_> ... but when you do the properties may vary.
  279. # [10:44] <anthony_> CM: In the requirements we don't have a particular reason for chunk transferring. Can you give a use case for that?
  280. # [10:44] <anthony_> AR: Yes.
  281. # [10:44] <anthony_> ACTION: Arun to add the use case for chunk transfers.
  282. # [10:44] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  283. # [10:44] * RRSAgent records action 1
  284. # [10:44] <trackbot> Created ACTION-258 - Add the use case for chunk transfers. [on Arun Ranganathan - due 2008-10-27].
  285. # [10:44] <anthony_> AB: We do both directions up and down.
  286. # [10:44] <anthony_> AR: That's one thing not in this which is a file download of any sort.
  287. # [10:44] <anthony_> ... so JS has a better use case for file downloads
  288. # [10:44] <anthony_> JS: For e.g. for Google docs you can open a doc and have it saved to the server. but if you want to save it to the file
  289. # [10:44] <anthony_> ... system I believe they upload it to the server and give back a URI
  290. # [10:44] <anthony_> NM: So you are talking about use cases for upload and download?
  291. # [10:44] <anthony_> JS: So this is for the use case where the user wants to download
  292. # [10:44] <anthony_> NM: The webforms group has looked at this. I would prefer we leave this out and leave it to forms.
  293. # [10:44] <anthony_> AR: So HTML5 has resolved to take on Webforms. This may be resolved in HTML5?
  294. # [10:44] <anthony_> JS: My concern is I don't think it's very form related.
  295. # [10:44] <anthony_> IH: Most data comes from contentEditable
  296. # [10:44] <anthony_> JS: I think that if we are created a limited v1 spec that I think download can go into v2
  297. # [10:44] <anthony_> AR: But it can be a use case/requirement
  298. # [10:44] <anthony_> JS: If the forms people have looked at this maybe we should look at what they've done. If they have
  299. # [10:45] <anthony_> ... a good solution we should reference that.
  300. # [10:45] <anthony_> ACTION: Arun to add a use case for file download
  301. # [10:45] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  302. # [10:45] * RRSAgent records action 2
  303. # [10:45] <trackbot> Created ACTION-259 - Add a use case for file download [on Arun Ranganathan - due 2008-10-27].
  304. # [10:45] <anthony_> CM: Is anyone desperate to have it v1 spec?
  305. # [10:45] <anthony_> All: None
  306. # [10:46] * Joins: jreyes (51fd34c2@128.30.52.43)
  307. # [10:46] * Quits: timeless (timeless@65.75.195.122) (Ping timeout)
  308. # [10:47] <anthony_> AR: I believe we can wrap up the discussion
  309. # [10:47] <anthony_> ... by saying that unless a good technical argument is put forward by Apple
  310. # [10:48] * Joins: timeless (timeless@65.75.195.122)
  311. # [10:48] <anthony_> ... I think v1 should include a def of HTML5 file input element, blob as an async
  312. # [10:48] <anthony_> ... I'm open to removing file dialog
  313. # [10:49] <anthony_> ... If anyone has any objections regarding Google's blob API speak now
  314. # [10:49] <anthony_> JS: Right now I'd like to see the sync functionality as async
  315. # [10:49] <anthony_> CM: Summary, to have the whole thing as a blob API, have the whole thing as ASync, XHR extension and HTML5 input element
  316. # [10:50] <anthony_> IH: I'm fine with having these features
  317. # [10:50] <anthony_> ... I think we should make it simpler
  318. # [10:50] <anthony_> AR: There is a method for removing files
  319. # [10:50] <anthony_> ... can you give me a technical reason?
  320. # [10:50] <anthony_> IH: To make it simpler
  321. # [10:51] <anthony_> CM: What's the complication of removing a file?
  322. # [10:51] <anthony_> IH: Unless we can absolutely defending having a feature
  323. # [10:51] <anthony_> ... we should consider dropping it
  324. # [10:51] <anthony_> AV: Seems like a better approach
  325. # [10:51] <anthony_> AR: I can remove the remove
  326. # [10:51] <anthony_> CM: Along with file download
  327. # [10:51] <anthony_> ... Opera still wants to see file System
  328. # [10:52] <anthony_> IH: That should also be separate spec like streaming
  329. # [10:52] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  330. # [10:52] <anthony_> CM: Or be v2
  331. # [10:52] <anthony_> DS: Should put future products in tracker
  332. # [10:52] <anthony_> ACTION: Chaals to Provide a use case for file system access
  333. # [10:52] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  334. # [10:52] * RRSAgent records action 3
  335. # [10:52] <trackbot> Created ACTION-262 - Provide a use case for file system access [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2008-10-27].
  336. # [10:53] <anthony_> CM: With that I think we have enough to go forward
  337. # [10:53] <anthony_> ... lets drop the proposal to publish the current draft
  338. # [10:53] <anthony_> ... and you'll do up a new one which you'll propose for publishing
  339. # [10:55] <chaals> scribeNick: sicking
  340. # [10:55] <sicking> Topic: new work
  341. # [10:57] <sicking> CM: current proposals are; stuff from NM, timer API from mjs, workers from whatwg, window API
  342. # [10:57] * Quits: dino (dino@81.253.47.137) (Connection reset by peer)
  343. # [10:58] <sicking> AR: with worker threads current proposal is to move it from whatwg to w3c to allow parties that prefer working with w3c can contribute
  344. # [10:58] * Joins: dino (dino@81.253.47.137)
  345. # [10:58] <sicking> HI: workers are part of w3c
  346. # [10:58] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/html5/workers/Overview.html
  347. # [10:59] <sicking> AR: propose to make it a formal work item
  348. # [10:59] <sicking> CM: we need approval from AC
  349. # [10:59] <sicking> CM: takes not long
  350. # [10:59] <sicking> CM: need draft, editor
  351. # [10:59] <sicking> CM: hixie, you wanna be editor?
  352. # [11:00] <sicking> HI: roxxorz!
  353. # [11:00] <arun> q+
  354. # [11:00] * Zakim sees nrmehta, arun on the speaker queue
  355. # [11:00] <sicking> DS: the reason we need AC approval was that people was worried that webapps was taking on too much
  356. # [11:01] <sicking> DS: we need usecase and requirements
  357. # [11:01] <Hixie> s/roxxorz/I'm already editing the spec, so I don't mind changing the SotD to say "WebApps WG" instead of "HTMLWG"
  358. # [11:01] <chaals> s/roxxorz/I'm already editing the spec, so I don't mind changing the SotD to say "WebApps WG" instead of "HTMLWG"/
  359. # [11:02] <nrmehta> q-
  360. # [11:02] * Zakim sees arun on the speaker queue
  361. # [11:02] <sicking> DS: how long will AC review take?
  362. # [11:02] <sicking> AC: with this work item it should not take long. 3 weeks i believe
  363. # [11:03] <sicking> DS: we can start work before AC approves
  364. # [11:03] <sicking> CM: given that we have editor, anyone think we should not take it on?
  365. # [11:04] <sicking> RESOLUTION: we will take it to the AC and ask permission to add to charter
  366. # [11:04] * gsnedders Has anything ever been said been said on public-html about workers at all?
  367. # [11:04] * gsnedders doesn't think so
  368. # [11:04] <sicking> DS: we should ask the html wg for permission
  369. # [11:05] <sicking> CW: as a chair i've said before that i think this is a good idea
  370. # [11:05] <sicking> CM: it's in our charter that we need to ask AC, but there is no formal process to do so. We'll figure it out
  371. # [11:06] <nrmehta> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008OctDec/0104.html
  372. # [11:06] <sicking> NM: i have proposal for seamless online/offline apps
  373. # [11:07] <arun> Wants it noted that WorkerThreads was originally requested as a WebApps Work Item, along with Content Security Policy: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008AprJun/0416.html
  374. # [11:07] <sicking> NM: objective is for applications to be able to access data when network is not available. There are a few use cases in draft
  375. # [11:07] <arun> While WorkerThreads *may* move here as a result of request by Chairs, Content Security Policy still remains TBD (including within Mozilla)
  376. # [11:08] <sicking> NM: main one is traveling sales guy to access data when not online
  377. # [11:08] * Quits: dino (dino@81.253.47.137) (Quit: dino)
  378. # [11:08] <sicking> NM: html5 proposes new data storage mechanism, such as localstorage or sql db
  379. # [11:09] <anne> BITSY (with correct MIME type): http://html5.org/temp/2008/bitsy.xhtml
  380. # [11:09] <sicking> NM: this proposal does not provide a new storage mechanism
  381. # [11:09] <sicking> NM: you can use XHR to load and store data
  382. # [11:10] * anne likes wget
  383. # [11:10] <sicking> NM: you can also use hyper link, form submission, resource links (such as <link>)
  384. # [11:10] * Quits: arve (arve@81.253.52.164) (Ping timeout)
  385. # [11:10] * chaals likes apricots
  386. # [11:10] * sicking likes cookies
  387. # [11:11] * chaals hands sicking a cookie
  388. # [11:11] <sicking> NM: caveat is that the data needs to be linked to an atom feed
  389. # [11:12] <sicking> NM: intention is not to act as a replacement to html5 spec
  390. # [11:12] <sicking> NM: it's mainly intended for resources, not data
  391. # [11:12] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  392. # [11:12] <chaals> s/for resources, not data/for data, not resources (although it could be used for that)/
  393. # [11:13] <sicking> NM: this proposal provides a way accessing data when offline, and for data to be submitted to server when going back online
  394. # [11:14] <sicking> AR: does the builder object throw an error if a resource is not available and user is offline?
  395. # [11:15] <sicking> NM: in such a case the resource will not be available
  396. # [11:15] <sicking> AR: have you looked at rules for XHR with regards to access to headers
  397. # [11:16] <sicking> NM: cookie header is allowed to be set in the builder object
  398. # [11:16] <sicking> AR: are there cross site restrictions
  399. # [11:17] <sicking> NM: We'd like to allow cross domain access, but we have not thought about that so far
  400. # [11:17] <sicking> AV: can we back out from technical details and look at higher level
  401. # [11:18] <chaals> q+
  402. # [11:18] * Zakim sees arun, chaals on the speaker queue
  403. # [11:18] <sicking> NM: i'd like to able to look at existing objects when offline, and like to be able to change resources while offline
  404. # [11:18] * chaals wonders if arun is realy still on q
  405. # [11:18] <sicking> NM: if a resource is not available at request time, request is stored and replayed when resource becomes available
  406. # [11:19] <sicking> CM: at a very high level this uses atompub to define a synchronization mechanism
  407. # [11:20] <CWilso> q+: to point out 1) IP 2) "sync is hard"
  408. # [11:20] * Zakim sees arun, chaals, CWilso on the speaker queue
  409. # [11:20] <sicking> CM: instead of having to implement your own synch mechanism yourself you use atompub and then let the browser do synchronization for you
  410. # [11:20] <chaals> ack cha
  411. # [11:20] * Zakim sees arun, CWilso on the speaker queue
  412. # [11:20] <chaals> ack aru
  413. # [11:20] * Zakim sees CWilso on the speaker queue
  414. # [11:20] <arun> q+
  415. # [11:20] * Zakim sees CWilso, arun on the speaker queue
  416. # [11:21] <sicking> NM: html5 has mechanism for storing data. Does not have ability to cache resources
  417. # [11:21] <sicking> IH: html5 has offline cache
  418. # [11:21] <sicking> CW: what is the status? It says copyright all rights reserved
  419. # [11:22] <sicking> CW: sockets does allow this functionality. It's super powerful but also super hard
  420. # [11:23] <sicking> CW: outlook guys have worked for 10 years to make offline exchange working. It works great now but it was really hard
  421. # [11:23] <sicking> CM: w3c has process for submitting members only stuff
  422. # [11:23] <sicking> CW: so is this a member submission?
  423. # [11:24] <sicking> CW: if it says all rights reserved oracle our guys can't read it
  424. # [11:24] <sicking> NM: oracle will not have problems making this public
  425. # [11:25] <sicking> CW: please send it to the list and say that it's a member submission. That'll take care of the license
  426. # [11:25] * Joins: dino (dino@81.253.57.73)
  427. # [11:25] <chaals> ACTION: Nikunj to provide a legalese and process-friendly version of the proposal
  428. # [11:25] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  429. # [11:25] * RRSAgent records action 4
  430. # [11:25] <trackbot> Created ACTION-263 - Provide a legalese and process-friendly version of the proposal [on Nikunj Mehta - due 2008-10-27].
  431. # [11:26] <sicking> JS: very fair, we gave microsoft the same crap when we got feedback under a license
  432. # [11:26] <chaals> q+ hixie
  433. # [11:26] * Zakim sees CWilso, arun, hixie on the speaker queue
  434. # [11:26] <chaals> ack cw
  435. # [11:26] <Zakim> CWilso, you wanted to point out 1) IP 2) "sync is hard"
  436. # [11:26] * Zakim sees arun, hixie on the speaker queue
  437. # [11:26] <sicking> NM: since sync is hard we should have functionality for it
  438. # [11:27] <sicking> CW: we need to look at scenarios before going forward since we will get lots of questions
  439. # [11:27] <arun> q--
  440. # [11:27] * Zakim sees arun, hixie on the speaker queue
  441. # [11:27] <arun> q--
  442. # [11:27] * Zakim sees arun, hixie on the speaker queue
  443. # [11:27] <sicking> CW: we should define use cases clearly
  444. # [11:27] <arun> q-
  445. # [11:27] * Zakim sees hixie on the speaker queue
  446. # [11:27] <sicking> NM: we have not included indexing for example
  447. # [11:28] <chaals> ack hi
  448. # [11:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  449. # [11:29] <chaals> q+
  450. # [11:29] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  451. # [11:29] <sicking> IH: my concern is that something like this would be a solution for a small set of problems. Not even 50%. Browsers generally want to address things more like 80% of the use cases
  452. # [11:30] <chaals> q+ to say that this appears to provide a solution for simple applications, supporting small-time developers, although not enough for really serious applications
  453. # [11:30] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  454. # [11:30] <CWilso> q+ to say: XHR2 + localStorage + SQL storage + this + offline/cache control: whither?
  455. # [11:30] * Zakim sees chaals, CWilso on the speaker queue
  456. # [11:31] <sicking> NM: we should have something for atompub. If 80% of atompub are solved by this then this is good enough for us
  457. # [11:31] <chaals> ack ch
  458. # [11:31] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say that this appears to provide a solution for simple applications, supporting small-time developers, although not enough for really serious applications
  459. # [11:31] * Zakim sees CWilso on the speaker queue
  460. # [11:31] <sicking> IH: this might be implementable using a JS library backed by XHR
  461. # [11:31] <arun> +1 IH, modulo access to requests from within script
  462. # [11:32] * Quits: dino (dino@81.253.57.73) (Quit: dino)
  463. # [11:32] <sicking> NM: current specs does now allow syncing in background
  464. # [11:32] <sicking> IH: workers might add that ability, though it scares me
  465. # [11:32] <CWilso> CM: "idiots like me"
  466. # [11:33] <sicking> CM: it appears to lower bar for developers to have this functionality
  467. # [11:33] <arun> q+
  468. # [11:33] * Zakim sees CWilso, arun on the speaker queue
  469. # [11:33] <sicking> CM: if we decide to take this on, we need to look at what the html5 wg
  470. # [11:33] <sicking> q+
  471. # [11:33] * Zakim sees CWilso, arun, sicking on the speaker queue
  472. # [11:35] * gsnedders MikeSmith's significant other :P
  473. # [11:35] * chaals LOL at gsnedders
  474. # [11:35] * CWilso hey, I've been upgraded to significant!
  475. # [11:36] * shepazu ... don't get fresh, gsnedders :)
  476. # [11:36] * CWilso too late, shepazu
  477. # [11:36] * chaals ate his way to carrying a lot of weight in discussions
  478. # [11:36] <sicking> NM: a number of these things are possible to do with existing specs. However there are not conclusive evidence that there is. we did a lot of research on existing specs but wasn't able to find conclusive evidence. If this is interesting enough we probably need to extend specs
  479. # [11:36] * gsnedders chaals: _out loud_? You didn't! Liar!
  480. # [11:37] <CWilso> ack cw
  481. # [11:37] <Zakim> CWilso, you wanted to say: XHR2 + localStorage + SQL storage + this + offline/cache control: whither?
  482. # [11:37] * Zakim sees arun, sicking on the speaker queue
  483. # [11:37] <chaals> ack cw
  484. # [11:37] * Zakim sees arun, sicking on the speaker queue
  485. # [11:37] <sicking> NM: for example if the application updates data, there is no mechanism for making that data available to the app itself
  486. # [11:38] <sicking> CW: it is likely that more advanced use cases we'll point to localstorage etc. It's important that we think of this at a continuum so that it integrates with other pieces
  487. # [11:39] * Joins: paddy (paddy.byer@81.253.50.111)
  488. # [11:39] <chaals> s/we'll point to localstorage etc/will roll their own solution based on localstorage, XHR2, etc etc/
  489. # [11:39] <sicking> CW: i had an action item to look at where offline is going. I was at the time thinking it should stay in html5, but less sure now
  490. # [11:39] * Joins: arve (arve@81.253.58.166)
  491. # [11:40] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please make minutes
  492. # [11:40] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  493. # [11:41] <sicking> DS: hixie, what is your opinion on splitting this up into a new WG
  494. # [11:41] * Parts: paddy (paddy.byer@81.253.50.111)
  495. # [11:41] <chaals> s/new WG/work item in this WG, with a stub in HTML/
  496. # [11:42] <shepazu> q+
  497. # [11:42] * Zakim sees arun, sicking, shepazu on the speaker queue
  498. # [11:42] <sicking> IH: right now integration points are: navigating a browsing context, and when doing general network activity
  499. # [11:43] <Hixie> ...which is defined just in the appcache step
  500. # [11:43] <sicking> JS: there is also the markup for declaring manifests
  501. # [11:44] <sicking> IH: so not the first thing i'd break out, but not the last either
  502. # [11:44] <chaals> ack ar
  503. # [11:44] * Zakim sees sicking, shepazu on the speaker queue
  504. # [11:44] <sicking> q-
  505. # [11:44] * Zakim sees shepazu on the speaker queue
  506. # [11:45] <chaals> q+
  507. # [11:45] * Zakim sees shepazu, chaals on the speaker queue
  508. # [11:46] <sicking> AR: if we were to consider this, we should check how much is already covered by existing spec. And we'd need use cases
  509. # [11:46] <chaals> ack sh
  510. # [11:46] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  511. # [11:47] <sicking> DS: to me this sounds like something that is a larger task that belongs in a larger group, such as a task force or separate WG
  512. # [11:47] <sicking> CW: i see mixed bag with having separate WG
  513. # [11:47] * chaals eats apple alive :P
  514. # [11:48] * chaals eats worm alive, too :(
  515. # [11:48] <sicking> CW: i'd like a place where the discussion takes place where i can point people
  516. # [11:48] <Hixie> q+
  517. # [11:48] * Zakim sees chaals, Hixie on the speaker queue
  518. # [11:48] <sicking> CW: i wouldn't want to pull anything out from html5 since it's hard to pull too far apart
  519. # [11:49] <chaals> s/anything/everything/
  520. # [11:49] <sicking> DS: i can deal with the logistics
  521. # [11:49] <chaals> ack ch
  522. # [11:49] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
  523. # [11:50] <sicking> CM: can i get more work to give to DS plez, kthnx
  524. # [11:50] <sicking> CM: so he can not do it
  525. # [11:51] <sicking> CM: simplest way to move forward is to keep in webapps group
  526. # [11:51] <sicking> CM: needs to be coordinated with html wg
  527. # [11:51] <sicking> CM: CW, can you follow discussion for webapps
  528. # [11:51] * Quits: Adam (adam.c.boy@81.253.52.59) (Ping timeout)
  529. # [11:52] * gsnedders Can we minute that?
  530. # [11:52] <sicking> CW: having it in same list is a bit concerning due to traffic volumes
  531. # [11:52] <sicking> JS: I'd like a separate list too
  532. # [11:54] <CWilso> q?
  533. # [11:54] * Zakim sees Hixie on the speaker queue
  534. # [11:54] <CWilso> ack hi
  535. # [11:54] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  536. # [11:54] <sicking> CM: NM, are you prepared to do work
  537. # [11:54] <sicking> s/work/work?/
  538. # [11:54] <sicking> NM: yes
  539. # [11:54] <chaals> s/work/the work/
  540. # [11:57] <chaals> AvK: Want to see the things that can't be done with libraries
  541. # [11:57] <nrmehta> q+
  542. # [11:57] * Zakim sees nrmehta on the speaker queue
  543. # [11:57] <chaals> JS: Think this is something we should look at, but this is a non-trivial problem. E.g. suspect there will be lots of discussions on whether AtomPub is the right thing, etc...
  544. # [11:57] * Quits: arve (arve@81.253.58.166) (Ping timeout)
  545. # [11:57] <chaals> ack nik
  546. # [11:57] * Zakim sees nrmehta on the speaker queue
  547. # [11:58] <chaals> JS: also concerned that we will get a 30% solution....
  548. # [11:58] <chaals> s/will get/may get/
  549. # [11:58] <sicking> NM: if we approach it as a need to evolve the primitives such that this can be built as a library then that might be a good solution
  550. # [11:58] <sicking> IH: agree
  551. # [11:58] <sicking> AV: agree
  552. # [11:59] <sicking> JS: agree
  553. # [12:01] <sicking> CM: so sounds like there is agreement to keep looking at problem. First step being gather more use cases, NM has action item to submit some of those
  554. # [12:01] <chaals> ACTION: Nikunj to provide more use cases and explanation of why we need something like bitsy
  555. # [12:01] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  556. # [12:01] * RRSAgent records action 5
  557. # [12:01] <trackbot> Created ACTION-264 - Provide more use cases and explanation of why we need something like bitsy [on Nikunj Mehta - due 2008-10-27].
  558. # [12:02] <sicking> CM: do we want to talk about timers?
  559. # [12:03] <sicking> AV: there are proposals to simply lower the minimum delay from 10ms to 4ms which might address use cases
  560. # [12:03] <sicking> AV: however we might need to discuss moving setTimeout etc to this wg
  561. # [12:03] <sicking> s/wg/WG/
  562. # [12:04] <sicking> JS: who would be editor
  563. # [12:04] * gsnedders thinks it's hard to minute Hixie's shrug
  564. # [12:04] <sicking> AV: opera has a proposed editor
  565. # [12:04] <sicking> IH: i'd love to see it removed from the html5 spec
  566. # [12:04] <sicking> CM: shall we resolve to shift spec to webapps
  567. # [12:05] <arun> +1 AR
  568. # [12:05] <sicking> IH: i support it as long as there is an editor
  569. # [12:05] * Joins: arve (arve@81.253.61.76)
  570. # [12:05] <sicking> RESOLUTION: will start process to get it added as work item for WG
  571. # [12:06] <chaals> [for all of you reading the logs: "resolutions" here are subject to being published in the minutes, and not raising objections from the group, since not everyone is at this meeting]
  572. # [12:06] <sicking> Topic: window object
  573. # [12:08] <sicking> CM: we need an editor
  574. # [12:08] <sicking> CM: it's really really really hard to edit
  575. # [12:08] * gsnedders Somebody Else's Problem Field already applied.
  576. # [12:08] <sicking> CM: you must be insane to do so
  577. # [12:08] <sicking> CM: anyone interested?
  578. # [12:09] <sicking> IH: what is the advantage of having it as a separate spec
  579. # [12:09] <sicking> IH: i used to think it's a good idea, but less sure at this point
  580. # [12:10] <sicking> IH: I've tried to write the html5 spec such that svg can use it. By defining interactions for for example properties with same name
  581. # [12:10] <sicking> CM: i'll talk with svg guys and see if anyone is prepared to do the work
  582. # [12:11] <sicking> IH: i want svg to be able to use it. So tell them if there is anything i can do to help them i'll be happy to do so
  583. # [12:11] <sicking> CM: anything more we should bring up?
  584. # [12:12] <sicking> AR: mozilla would like to submit content security policy, but it's not ready at this point. But as a heads up, we'll do so in the future
  585. # [12:12] <sicking> Topic: lunch
  586. # [12:12] <sicking> will we have it, and will it taste yummy
  587. # [12:14] * gsnedders we could just see who turns up :P
  588. # [12:15] * gsnedders "Speak now or forever you hold your peace"
  589. # [12:15] * Quits: Carmelo (51fd2fe0@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
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  593. # [12:18] <chaals> We will be back here at 14h30 french time. If you want to talk to another group, before then is a good time to pick
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  626. # [14:15] <DanC_lap> (found timbl's proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008May/0165.html )
  627. # [14:15] <DanC_lap> hierarchical... check.
  628. # [14:17] <DanC_lap> e.g. <imsg src="../over/there/in/the/zip/file" />
  629. # [14:17] <DanC_lap> e.g. <img src="../over/there/in/the/zip/file" /> rather
  630. # [14:18] <DanC_lap> expose... not sure.
  631. # [14:18] <DanC_lap> outside... not sure
  632. # [14:18] <DanC_lap> conflict... not sure
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  635. # [14:20] <hendry> is the widget stuff happening in group 1 or 2?
  636. # [14:20] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@81.253.10.183)
  637. # [14:20] <hendry> and where is the back channel please
  638. # [14:20] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@81.253.10.183) (Quit: Leaving)
  639. # [14:20] <DanC_lap> (I wonder if http://engine/widget/path is analagous to http://example.com/widgets/2007/blink-01.zip/contents/chrome/js/blink.js . not sure what /engine/ is)
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  642. # [14:21] <DanC_lap> "no standard" applies to widget: too, right?
  643. # [14:22] <DanC_lap> hendry, widget stuff is in A (dunno which is 1 vs 2)
  644. # [14:23] * Quits: arve (arve@81.253.7.157) (Ping timeout)
  645. # [14:23] <hendry> DanC_lap: wondered if i could drop in as an observer for an hour. can't see art online to clear it.
  646. # [14:25] <DanC_lap> hendry, I just learned #wam is the channel for the widget stuff; ArtB is there
  647. # [14:28] * Quits: wonsuk (wslee@81.253.7.190) (Ping timeout)
  648. # [14:30] <hendry> DanC_lap: thanks!
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  650. # [14:34] <gsnedders> I guess I should return to the room
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  661. # [15:02] <Adam> scribeNick: Adam
  662. # [15:02] * gsnedders CWilso: my minimal test case was broken. Maybe it will work :P
  663. # [15:02] <Adam> Topic: Element Traversal
  664. # [15:02] * Joins: ed_fr (ed@90.0.41.232)
  665. # [15:02] * Joins: chaals (chaals@81.253.10.149)
  666. # [15:03] <Lachy> just so this is recorded somewhere, even though it's not the topic yet, the remaining issues for selectors api are:
  667. # [15:03] <Lachy> 1. Add last 40 emails to the disposition of comments
  668. # [15:03] <Lachy> 2. deal with one issue regarding the feature string/
  669. # [15:03] <Lachy> 3. Respond to other emails saying that the issues are postponed till v2.
  670. # [15:04] <Adam> DS: you can skip over text nodes and just navigate the tree by the elements
  671. # [15:04] <Adam> wrote some tests, has been CR
  672. # [15:04] <chaals> [chaals uploaded a new progress events draft: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html?rev=1.22 for your enjoyment]
  673. # [15:04] <Adam> DS: wrote some tests, has been CR
  674. # [15:05] <Adam> DS: html 4, xhtml, etc versions of the files, tested in opera and batik which is an svg toolkit
  675. # [15:05] * Joins: MoZ (chatzilla@81.253.11.124)
  676. # [15:05] <chaals> s/etc versions/svg versions/
  677. # [15:05] <Adam> DS: each test passed by both opera and svg toolkit,
  678. # [15:05] <Adam> DS: would like to propose moving from CR to PR
  679. # [15:06] <Adam> JS: sold
  680. # [15:06] <Adam> JS: test cases do have some errors
  681. # [15:07] <Adam> JS: etnamespace.svg test
  682. # [15:07] <smaug> chaals: could you change loaded and total to unsigned long long?
  683. # [15:08] <chaals> [smaug, I think I did that]
  684. # [15:08] <Adam> AV: would like to see it test
  685. # [15:08] <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/ElementTraversal/tests/
  686. # [15:08] <smaug> "readonly attribute unsigned long loaded;"
  687. # [15:08] <sicking> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/ElementTraversal/tests/et-namespace.svg
  688. # [15:09] <chaals> [ah. found it... Better edited version coming soon]
  689. # [15:09] <Adam> DS: were very basic test
  690. # [15:09] <Adam> JS: are you testing dynamic stuff
  691. # [15:09] <Adam> DS: no
  692. # [15:09] <Adam> JS: will try to update his test, does some dynamic stuff
  693. # [15:10] <Adam> JS: haven't tested any of the HTML test
  694. # [15:10] <Adam> DS: should see the word pass if they pass
  695. # [15:12] <Adam> AV: where is the function init test being called
  696. # [15:12] <Adam> AV: doesn't seem to run the script at all?
  697. # [15:12] * ed_fr does the et-namespace not want to call initTest()? and I think svg is supposed to ignore any unknown elements
  698. # [15:12] * ed_fr so the element will never display "pass" visually
  699. # [15:14] <Adam> DS: thought other people wanted some things for version 2
  700. # [15:14] <anne> ed_fr, I pointed out as much
  701. # [15:15] <anne> ed_fr, the tests suck, for lack of a better word
  702. # [15:15] <Adam> CM: we believe when the tests are fixed they'll pass, that their modular, bugs identified, assuming when the tests are fixed, and the browsers pass it we are resolved to PR status
  703. # [15:15] * ed_fr wonders if there's any point trying to get to the pullman casio today, I'm in nice currently
  704. # [15:15] <chaals> RESOLUTION: Subject to the identified bugs in tests being fixed, and implementations still passing, we will request PR status for Element Traversal
  705. # [15:15] * chaals says to ed: sure
  706. # [15:16] <Adam> AV: still think its not necessary to child element counts
  707. # [15:16] <Adam> DS: likes it
  708. # [15:16] * MikeSmith wonders what is scheduled in #webapps for today after 4pm
  709. # [15:16] <Hixie> is the next topic xhr?
  710. # [15:16] <Adam> AV: whats wrong with children length
  711. # [15:17] * chaals says yes to hixie
  712. # [15:17] <Hixie> thanks
  713. # [15:17] <anne> children.length is two characters shorter than childElementCount
  714. # [15:17] <Adam> DS: it was svg to tiny user agent with mobile devices that don't already have node list interface
  715. # [15:17] <Adam> DS: feedback from user agent vendors didn't want to do node list, that operation was significantly more costly to them
  716. # [15:17] <Adam> DS: could be put in v2
  717. # [15:18] <Adam> JS: totally bogus but not going to argue about it
  718. # [15:18] <Adam> AV: agree it's bogus
  719. # [15:19] <Adam> CM: if we stop talking about this we'll have more time to talk about v2
  720. # [15:19] <Adam> JS: for the sake of moving on
  721. # [15:20] <Adam> DS: moving on to v2
  722. # [15:20] * anne thinks this is silly
  723. # [15:20] * gsnedders does too
  724. # [15:20] <chaals> ACTION: Doug to fix the tests for Element Traversal and make the implementation report
  725. # [15:20] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  726. # [15:20] <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Doug
  727. # [15:20] <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dstamper, schepers)
  728. # [15:20] * RRSAgent records action 6
  729. # [15:21] <chaals> ACTION: schepers to fix the tests for Element Traversal and make the implementation report
  730. # [15:21] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  731. # [15:21] * RRSAgent records action 7
  732. # [15:21] <trackbot> Created ACTION-266 - Fix the tests for Element Traversal and make the implementation report [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-10-27].
  733. # [15:21] <Adam> CM: do we need AC approval to do v2
  734. # [15:21] <Adam> AV: seems unnecessary
  735. # [15:22] <chaals> ACTION: schepers to check if we need approval to work on Element Traversal, and start working on v. 2
  736. # [15:22] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  737. # [15:22] * RRSAgent records action 8
  738. # [15:22] <trackbot> Created ACTION-267 - Check if we need approval to work on Element Traversal, and start working on v. 2 [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-10-27].
  739. # [15:22] <Adam> AV: no need for an email to 400 people for people to say yes
  740. # [15:22] <Adam> DS: doesn't agree
  741. # [15:22] <Adam> DS: want to let them know we're doing work
  742. # [15:24] <Adam> JS: thought wanted following children on text nodes
  743. # [15:25] <Adam> JS: thougth somebody asked for that
  744. # [15:25] <Adam> JS: point was should be in v2 and not in a separate space
  745. # [15:25] <chaals> RESOLUTION: We want the new version with node lists etc...
  746. # [15:25] <Adam> Topic: XHR
  747. # [15:26] <shepazu> s/following children/next-previousElementSibling/
  748. # [15:27] <Adam> AV: was comment made on last call, made some disposition of comments
  749. # [15:27] <Adam> AV: need some kind of wg agreement
  750. # [15:27] <Adam> AV: HS mentioned might be something in html5
  751. # [15:27] <Adam> AV: actually doing the XHR actually integrate in to the event loop
  752. # [15:28] <Adam> CM: why do we want to make this change
  753. # [15:28] <Adam> HS: if you do a set timeout or trigger or an async event it defines in what order the events will fire
  754. # [15:28] <Adam> AV: that is a part that has never been standardized but html5 does that
  755. # [15:28] <Adam> AV: a few hours to do
  756. # [15:29] <Adam> HS: net change spec will say fire task
  757. # [15:29] <Adam> AV: that was the only to change in v1, v2 has other oustanding issues
  758. # [15:29] * Quits: ed_fr (ed@90.0.41.232) (Quit: ed_fr)
  759. # [15:30] <Adam> JS: at the risk of starting a war, what were the prospects of ie implementing the spec
  760. # [15:31] <Adam> JS: feels the pain of it breaking stuff in IE
  761. # [15:31] <Adam> JS: is there a strategy here to get everyone on the same page
  762. # [15:32] <Adam> CW: great guestions, i don't know, last understanding was there where things being done differently, not going to be able to change it in the near term, not say we shouldn't or it's not the right thing to do
  763. # [15:32] <Adam> JS: what is the probabity of it eventually being implemented
  764. # [15:32] <Adam> CW: it's not impossible
  765. # [15:33] <Adam> JS: is there feedback from MS on things that should be changed in the spec
  766. # [15:33] <Adam> ABate: does have a document that he has the action to review that but not sure what it has
  767. # [15:34] <Adam> CM: seems like there are least some changes to spec so not going to do a last call today
  768. # [15:34] <Adam> AV: don't have any open issues noted
  769. # [15:35] <Adam> AV: some issue with char set that he doesn't have the detail down for yet
  770. # [15:35] <Adam> JS: is afraid of changing the content type at all
  771. # [15:35] <Adam> JS: why is that in the spec
  772. # [15:35] <Adam> AV: somebody argued for it
  773. # [15:36] <Adam> AV: so the server could figure out whats going on
  774. # [15:36] <chaals> [ http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html?rev=1.23 available, with better editing (Thanks Smaug)]
  775. # [15:36] <Adam> JS: personally wouldn't might waiting for that until XHR2
  776. # [15:36] <Adam> AV: doesn't want to add a dom attribute
  777. # [15:36] <Adam> AV: to address it
  778. # [15:37] <Adam> JS: alternative is to have a separate header
  779. # [15:37] * Quits: harry (kcome@58.213.218.64) (Ping timeout)
  780. # [15:37] * Quits: MoZ (chatzilla@81.253.11.124) (Ping timeout)
  781. # [15:38] <smaug> [chaals: still "readonly attribute unsigned long loaded;" ;) ]
  782. # [15:38] <smaug> [same for .total]
  783. # [15:39] <Adam> AV: i really hate char sets
  784. # [15:39] <Adam> AV: could leave it undefined, i don't like it, could say sending char set is a violation
  785. # [15:40] <chaals> [d'oh. /me curses whitespace and fixes it AGAIN...]
  786. # [15:40] <Adam> AV: could let MS and JS to go back for feedback review
  787. # [15:40] <Adam> Action: JS to review if char set is something that can be removed
  788. # [15:40] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  789. # [15:40] <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - JS
  790. # [15:40] <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jsoref, jsicking)
  791. # [15:40] * RRSAgent records action 9
  792. # [15:40] <nrmehta> This is a common problem with charsets on XML and HTTP http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2004/07/21/dive.html
  793. # [15:40] <Adam> Action: jsicking to review if char set is something that can be removed
  794. # [15:40] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  795. # [15:40] * RRSAgent records action 10
  796. # [15:40] <trackbot> Created ACTION-268 - Review if char set is something that can be removed [on Jonas Sicking - due 2008-10-27].
  797. # [15:42] <Adam> AV: did we want to go through comments for disposition
  798. # [15:42] <Adam> HS: should go through the ones where the commentor is not happy with the response
  799. # [15:42] <anne> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest/disposition-of-comments-2
  800. # [15:43] <DanC_lap> [15:37] <trackbot> ACTION-187 -- Dan Connolly to talk with TimBL about install-time names for widgets -- due 2008-10-27 -- OPEN
  801. # [15:43] <DanC_lap> [15:37] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/187
  802. # [15:44] <chaals> [aah, smaug were you looking at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html?rev=1.24 ? I may have pasted the wrong link in before ;) ]
  803. # [15:44] <Adam> CM: don't have to look at all the dispositions from previous last call
  804. # [15:44] <Adam> AV: #7 is rejected
  805. # [15:44] <Adam> AV: several headers are being blocked on being sent
  806. # [15:45] <smaug> [chaals: great, thanks. Will change long -> long long in mozilla]
  807. # [15:45] <Adam> AV: he agrees with some being blocked but not others
  808. # [15:45] <Adam> DS: have other people chimed in on that thread, is there some sort of
  809. # [15:46] <Adam> HS: can't allow the user agent is dodgy
  810. # [15:46] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008May/0408.html
  811. # [15:47] <Adam> AV: some reason why referrer was on the block list
  812. # [15:47] <Adam> JS: i don't think we block it yet do we
  813. # [15:48] <Adam> DS: he is not an implementor
  814. # [15:48] <Adam> DS: does anybody in the group disagree with AV
  815. # [15:49] <Adam> DS: if the vendors are all ok then this is a polite disagree
  816. # [15:49] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  817. # [15:49] <Adam> AV: was about the dependancy on html 5
  818. # [15:50] <Adam> CM: lots of people said strip the reference to html5
  819. # [15:51] <Adam> AV: they suggested to copy it all in, that was not the best way to go, would be huge
  820. # [15:51] <Adam> DS: i requested the spec leave everything up to the host language
  821. # [15:51] <Adam> AV: what is a host language?
  822. # [15:51] <Adam> DS: if you're using a script it's the host language
  823. # [15:52] <Adam> HS: bigger problem is you may not have a host language
  824. # [15:52] <Adam> DS: that would be the host language
  825. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> q?
  826. # [15:52] <Adam> HS: then that would be the host language
  827. # [15:53] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  828. # [15:53] <Adam> AV: some definitions could be inlined
  829. # [15:53] * Joins: wonsuk (wslee@81.253.21.200)
  830. # [15:53] <Adam> HS: there is a reference from html 5 to xhr in that part of the spec
  831. # [15:54] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  832. # [15:55] <Adam> JS: can do cross domain at the browser chrome
  833. # [15:55] <Adam> AV: could be a should do it
  834. # [15:55] <Adam> JS: why do we need to specifiy that xhr is same origin
  835. # [15:55] <Adam> AV: still need to define origin
  836. # [15:56] <Adam> CM: would suggest that things that can be inlined are better off inlined
  837. # [15:57] <Adam> CM: makes the case these things are massive complicated stuff makes the case easier to argue
  838. # [15:57] <Adam> Action: chaals to look through the references to see what can reasonably inlined
  839. # [15:57] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  840. # [15:57] * RRSAgent records action 11
  841. # [15:57] <trackbot> Created ACTION-269 - Look through the references to see what can reasonably inlined [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2008-10-27].
  842. # [15:58] <Adam> AV: is ok with doing this
  843. # [16:00] <Adam> AV: one issue with setting second arg to null
  844. # [16:00] * gsnedders should do something about the pending further comment
  845. # [16:00] <Adam> JS: null handling is behavior is undefined
  846. # [16:01] * Joins: kapyaho (kapyaho@81.253.22.102)
  847. # [16:01] <Hixie> chaals, do you remember which section of the process defines this restriction on references? i can't find it (i wanted to see what the exact wording is)
  848. # [16:02] <Adam> JS: have 2 options, it gives special behavior for null, or do nothing
  849. # [16:02] <Adam> AV: default is stringify to default
  850. # [16:02] <Adam> JS: i think should leave it at the default
  851. # [16:03] <nrmehta> q+
  852. # [16:03] * Zakim sees nrmehta on the speaker queue
  853. # [16:04] <Adam> HS: can't just leave it the default
  854. # [16:05] <Adam> JS: a little afraid of doing any behavior even though it sounds somewhat reasonable to do
  855. # [16:05] <Adam> CM: julian is the only one that wants to remove the header
  856. # [16:05] <Adam> NM: value null is issue if you stringify it
  857. # [16:05] <Adam> NM: there are no sementics defined for the value null
  858. # [16:06] <Adam> NM: agree with JS
  859. # [16:06] <chaals> Hixie, can't recall off hand.
  860. # [16:06] <Adam> HS: would much rather browser turn it in to empty string
  861. # [16:08] <Adam> JS: would like it be explicitly undefined here
  862. # [16:08] <Adam> AV: thats not possible
  863. # [16:08] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  864. # [16:09] <nrmehta> null causes more problems if one were to call setRequestHeader multiple times to set values of the same header, in which case the value null will be serialized in to the concatenated header value
  865. # [16:09] <Adam> JS: things follow what web idl says to do
  866. # [16:09] <Adam> AV: i don't think we should do that
  867. # [16:10] <Hixie> sicking, http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest/Overview.html?content-type=text/html;%20charset=utf-8
  868. # [16:10] <Hixie> sicking: search for the third definition of "open(" in the IDL
  869. # [16:10] <Hixie> and compare the second and the third arguments
  870. # [16:10] <Adam> NM: in opinion, thinks it's in violation of the spec
  871. # [16:12] <Adam> CM: should we do what julian says and remove the header? in any case no, not goign to remove the headers
  872. # [16:13] <Adam> Resoultion: not going to remove the header
  873. # [16:13] <Adam> Resolution: not going to remove the header
  874. # [16:13] * Joins: anthony__ (chatzilla@81.253.9.145)
  875. # [16:13] * Quits: anthony_ (chatzilla@81.253.9.145) (Connection reset by peer)
  876. # [16:13] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30)
  877. # [16:14] <karl> Hixie, chaals there is no formal requirement in the process document, but
  878. # [16:14] * Quits: chaals (chaals@81.253.10.149) (Quit: chaals)
  879. # [16:14] <Adam> taking a break
  880. # [16:14] <karl> if you go to http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xmlfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/01-transitions.html&xslfile=http://www.w3.org/2005/08/transitions.xsl&docstatus=pr-tr
  881. # [16:14] <karl> there is
  882. # [16:14] <karl> Evidence that dependencies with other groups met (or not)
  883. # [16:14] <karl> * Does this specification have any normative references to W3C specifications that are not yet Proposed Recommendations? Note: In general, documents do not advance to Recommendation with normative references to W3C specifications that are not yet Recommendations.
  884. # [16:14] <karl> * Is there evidence that additional dependencies related to implementation have been satisfied?
  885. # [16:15] <Hixie> hm, interesting
  886. # [16:15] <Hixie> so it's not a process issue?
  887. # [16:16] <karl> not realy, it is more that if a document has a normative dependency on another one. it is risky.
  888. # [16:16] <karl> the referenced document can change
  889. # [16:16] <karl> changing then the conformance requirement.
  890. # [16:16] <karl> I guess it is case by case
  891. # [16:16] <karl> and has to be strongly documented when going to the transition call.
  892. # [16:17] <Hixie> very interesting
  893. # [16:17] <Hixie> thanks!
  894. # [16:17] <karl> your welcome
  895. # [16:17] <karl> s/your/you're/
  896. # [16:17] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
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  900. # [16:24] * Joins: chaals (chaals@81.253.25.32)
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  906. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
  907. # [16:31] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
  908. # [16:32] <CWilso> scribenick: cwilso
  909. # [16:34] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  910. # [16:34] * CWilso is presuming this is still asides...
  911. # [16:34] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.26.126)
  912. # [16:34] * Joins: kapyaho (kapyaho@81.253.22.102)
  913. # [16:35] <CWilso> Topic: XHR still
  914. # [16:37] <CWilso> JS: HTTP-only key issue. thinks moz is going to block set-cookie header entirely.
  915. # [16:38] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/XMLHttpRequest/disposition-of-comments-2
  916. # [16:38] <CWilso> AVK: you're suggesting not getting any value back for setcookie? That would be cool...
  917. # [16:38] <nrmehta> q+
  918. # [16:38] * Zakim sees nrmehta on the speaker queue
  919. # [16:39] <CWilso> JS: yes, we pretend like it's not there. There's some concern about breakage, but seems unlikely.
  920. # [16:41] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.26.126) (Quit: gsnedders)
  921. # [16:41] <CWilso> IH: realm seems ok, since you can get it from the url.
  922. # [16:42] * Joins: MoZ (chatzilla@81.253.26.88)
  923. # [16:42] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.26.126)
  924. # [16:43] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.26.126) (Quit: Killin' teh intarwebs)
  925. # [16:43] <CWilso> NM: list of headers is static... but there's nothing here that requires browser impls to sync with IETF list of headers - what happens if someone defines a new header?
  926. # [16:43] <CWilso> JS: don't do that. Or use Sec-.
  927. # [16:45] <CWilso> AVK: Next issue: forms wg requested making instantiating an XHR object more abstract (e.g. don't need a Window object)
  928. # [16:46] <CWilso> JS: XHR would make sense for Flash, but they don't have Window.
  929. # [16:46] <CWilso> AVK: why do we care about Flash
  930. # [16:46] <CWilso> ack NM
  931. # [16:46] * Zakim sees nrmehta on the speaker queue
  932. # [16:46] <CWilso> ack NR
  933. # [16:46] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  934. # [16:46] <CWilso> JS: seems like we should make this possible
  935. # [16:48] * Joins: arve (arve@81.253.28.10)
  936. # [16:49] <CWilso> (discussion of proprietary platforms using XHR ensues)
  937. # [16:52] <CWilso> IH: should just make the magic sentence non-normative
  938. # [16:53] * Joins: maxf (maxfroumen@213.236.208.22)
  939. # [16:53] <CWilso> ACTION: Jonas Sicking to send email: Make non-normative suggestion that Window object can be omitted (for situations with no Window)
  940. # [16:53] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  941. # [16:53] * RRSAgent records action 12
  942. # [16:53] <trackbot> Created ACTION-270 - Sicking to send email: Make non-normative suggestion that Window object can be omitted (for situations with no Window) [on Jonas Sicking - due 2008-10-27].
  943. # [16:54] <CWilso> AVK: That's it for XHR1
  944. # [16:55] <CWilso> JS: XHR1 says to send the same events whether you're synchronous or async. Mozilla doesn't currently send any events in sync case. Is the spec right here?
  945. # [16:55] <CWilso> AVK: Yes. I have tests for this and moz fails them.
  946. # [16:56] <shepazu> Element Traversal implementation report: http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/ElementTraversal/tests/report/et-implementationReport.html
  947. # [16:56] <CWilso> AVK: the events are fired synchronously.
  948. # [16:56] <CWilso> [discussion ensues of whether this is true]
  949. # [16:59] <CWilso> IH: why can't you skip events?
  950. # [16:59] <CWilso> JS: because we put lots of other stuff in the event loop, including the UI
  951. # [17:00] <CWilso> IH: from my point of view, that's a bug
  952. # [17:00] <CWilso> JS: from my point of view, it's a feature. :)
  953. # [17:02] <CWilso> IH: we can (should?) change the spec to explicitly state that we keep pumping the event loop during sync XHR
  954. # [17:04] * Quits: marcos (marcos@81.253.9.62) (Connection reset by peer)
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  956. # [17:07] * Quits: arun (arun@81.253.15.167) (Quit: arun)
  957. # [17:07] <CWilso> AVK: will leave spec as is
  958. # [17:08] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.253.29.34)
  959. # [17:08] * gsnedders wonders why his laptops fans are running so quick
  960. # [17:08] * gsnedders hopes they aren't annoyingly loud
  961. # [17:08] * CWilso it's all that heavy number crunching you're doing.
  962. # [17:09] <CWilso> AVK: that concludes addressing the comments
  963. # [17:09] * gsnedders CWilso: But there's nothing running, CPU usage < 10% :\
  964. # [17:09] <CWilso> AVK: will update Disposition of comments.
  965. # [17:09] * gsnedders (if they're annoying, do say)
  966. # [17:10] * CWilso hmm. My fan's running constantly too. Maybe it's just warm in here?
  967. # [17:10] * gsnedders My CPU is colder than normal
  968. # [17:11] <CWilso> Topic: Selectors api
  969. # [17:11] <Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api/
  970. # [17:12] <CWilso> LH: spec update is mostly done, almost ready to go to 2nd LC. About 40 emails to go through for Disposition of Comments.
  971. # [17:12] * Quits: arve (arve@81.253.28.10) (Ping timeout)
  972. # [17:13] <CWilso> Last issue is the Feature string (hasFeature)
  973. # [17:14] <CWilso> LH: rejected request to use XHTML syntax for example
  974. # [17:16] <CWilso> LH: adding "scope" - moved to v2
  975. # [17:19] <CWilso> LH: [number of issues relating to NSResolver, which was dropped]
  976. # [17:20] <CWilso> MS: So three weeks or so for a new LC draft?
  977. # [17:21] <CWilso> JS: defends namespaces
  978. # [17:23] <CWilso> JS: I think we'll end up adding back NSResolver as it was
  979. # [17:23] <CWilso> JS: but I'm fine with it not being in v1.
  980. # [17:25] <CWilso> LH: need to fix up the list of acknowledgements.
  981. # [17:25] <CWilso> AVK: proposes to publish LC again
  982. # [17:26] <CWilso> hearing no object, MS says:
  983. # [17:26] <CWilso> s/object/objections
  984. # [17:26] <MikeSmith> RESOLUTION: Publish another LC WD for Selectors API, with plan to do 3-week LC period.
  985. # [17:26] <CWilso> MS: tomorrow: AC, XHR2, Progress Events
  986. # [17:27] * Quits: kapyaho (kapyaho@81.253.22.102) (Quit: kapyaho)
  987. # [17:29] * Quits: marcos (marcos@81.253.9.62) (Quit: marcos)
  988. # [17:29] <CWilso> IH: Window should contain browsing context and navigating context
  989. # [17:30] <MikeSmith> i/Window should/Topic: Moving forward with Window Object spec?/
  990. # [17:31] <CWilso> yeah, something like that.
  991. # [17:32] <CWilso> MS: seems like we should be done for the day?
  992. # [17:32] <CWilso> adjourned
  993. # [17:32] * Joins: ArtB (51fd0671@128.30.52.43)
  994. # [17:32] <CWilso> RRSAgent, make minutes
  995. # [17:32] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-webapps-minutes.html CWilso
  996. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> back tomorrow at 9am
  997. # [17:34] * Quits: ArtB (51fd0671@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  998. # [17:34] <gsnedders> <http://www.w3.org/2008/10/TPAC/Schedule.html> says groups at 8:30
  999. # [17:34] <gsnedders> But I'd like breakfast.
  1000. # [17:34] <MikeSmith> thanks to everybody who scribed
  1001. # [17:35] * gsnedders guesses he'll be thrown back to the seats at the back and not be allowed to sit here tomorrow seeming more people will be here again
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  1026. # [19:10] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  1036. # Session Close: Tue Oct 21 00:00:00 2008

The end :)