/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2008-10-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 21 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  32. # [09:11] * gsnedders can't get on Facebook
  33. # [09:11] * gsnedders has his perceived reality fall apart
  34. # [09:12] * gsnedders wonders if so few people are going to show up, whether he can sit at _the table_ again
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  36. # [09:12] <Hixie> i've been trying to post on lj for a whole now
  37. # [09:12] <Hixie> i keep getting timeouts
  38. # [09:13] <Hixie> while even
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  40. # [09:13] <gsnedders> I can't get on godaddy at all to renew domains that expires tomorrow
  41. # [09:13] <Hixie> anyway i'm in css. let me know if i should be here.
  42. # [09:13] <gsnedders> (well, I can get on it, I just can' login)
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  44. # [09:14] <gsnedders> shepazu: hey! :P
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  48. # [09:15] <chaals> Meeting: Web apps (non widget)
  49. # [09:15] * Joins: ed (ed@81.253.13.16)
  50. # [09:16] <adrianba> scribenick adrianba
  51. # [09:16] <shepazu> hey, gsnedders, long time no see
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  57. # [09:20] <chaals> Present: Chaals, Jonas, StefanoC, AdrianB, AdamB, Jyrka, AnnevanK, Lachlan, Carmelo, Janice, Henri, Geoffrey, ErikD, Doug, RolandM
  58. # [09:21] * Joins: kapyaho (kapyaho@81.253.10.239)
  59. # [09:21] <chaals> Topic: Element Traversal
  60. # [09:21] <adrianba> DS> updated tests
  61. # [09:22] <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/ElementTraversal/tests/report/et-implementationReport.html
  62. # [09:22] * Joins: marcos (marcos@81.253.14.109)
  63. # [09:23] <adrianba> DS> different tests targeting html, xhtml, svg
  64. # [09:25] <adrianba> DS: testing ent refs plus other namespaces
  65. # [09:25] <adrianba> DS: what other tests should be included
  66. # [09:25] <adrianba> JS: might have tests to add
  67. # [09:26] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  68. # [09:26] <adrianba> AVK: should have other dynamic tests
  69. # [09:26] <adrianba> AVK: PIs, comments
  70. # [09:27] <chaals> Topic: Progress Events
  71. # [09:27] <chaals> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html?rev=1.24
  72. # [09:27] <adrianba> JS: security problems, particularly with headers
  73. # [09:28] <adrianba> JS: header size could expose password length if other headers known
  74. # [09:29] <adrianba> JS: cross-site XHR only exposes small set of headers at the moment
  75. # [09:29] <adrianba> CM: don't you see all head anyway
  76. # [09:30] <adrianba> JS: cross site XHR doesn't allow to read all headers, only subset
  77. # [09:31] <adrianba> AVK: aren't progress events only for entity body
  78. # [09:31] <adrianba> JS: we said it might make sense to include headers
  79. # [09:32] * Joins: Roland_ (Roland@81.253.8.238)
  80. # [09:32] <marcos> http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-digsig/Overview.src.html
  81. # [09:32] <adrianba> CM: wouldn't normally get events for headers
  82. # [09:33] <marcos> ooops, wrong chan
  83. # [09:33] <adrianba> AVK: isn't worth it for small use case
  84. # [09:33] <adrianba> CM: will change so don't get events for headers
  85. # [09:33] <Adam> does anybody have the link to the wiki agenda?
  86. # [09:33] <chaals> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/WebAppsMandelieuAgenda -> agend
  87. # [09:34] <Adam> tx
  88. # [09:34] <adrianba> CM: added loading event
  89. # [09:35] <adrianba> CM: will make headers change then publish WD
  90. # [09:35] * Parts: wonsuk (wslee@81.253.7.216)
  91. # [09:35] <adrianba> JS: should it be LC
  92. # [09:36] <adrianba> RESOLUTION: make headers change and move draft to LC
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  95. # [09:37] <adrianba> (discussion of must, should, may use of keywords and case)
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  99. # [09:39] <adrianba> Topic: DOM 3 events
  100. # [09:40] <adrianba> DS: fairly close to done, not at LC yet
  101. # [09:40] <adrianba> DS: scroll events, feedback needs to be written up
  102. # [09:41] <adrianba> DS: two events, mouse scroll and wheel event
  103. # [09:42] <adrianba> JS: concern previously about xscroll vs yscroll
  104. # [09:42] <adrianba> JS: devs may expect only single axis
  105. # [09:43] <adrianba> DS: risk mitigated by mousewheel vs wheel
  106. # [09:44] <adrianba> JS: don't think devs will always be smart enough to differentiate
  107. # [09:44] <adrianba> AVK: what is interaction between events
  108. # [09:44] <adrianba> DS: they are not linked
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  110. # [09:45] <adrianba> JS: can page cancel scrolling by cancelling events
  111. # [09:45] <adrianba> DS: yes by canceling both events
  112. # [09:46] <adrianba> JS: may need more discussion on list, could it be if either is cancelled then won't scroll
  113. # [09:47] <adrianba> DS: we could make that change
  114. # [09:47] <adrianba> DS: will discuss on list
  115. # [09:48] <adrianba> AVK: if canceling mousewheel cancels wheel then that might mask x scroll
  116. # [09:50] <adrianba> DS: key identifiers - need feedback on IME issue
  117. # [09:50] <adrianba> DS: testing
  118. # [09:51] <adrianba> CMont: have tests but not released yet - about 2000
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  120. # [09:51] <adrianba> CMont: ready to publish when group ready
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  122. # [09:52] <adrianba> DS: ideally make tests so can easily be reused in vendor's frameworks
  123. # [09:53] <adrianba> CMont: mobile web group has test harness that can be used to run tests
  124. # [09:54] <adrianba> DS: if can reuse would be good way to expose tests
  125. # [09:54] <adrianba> DS: some other specs depend on DOM 3 events, make progress in Nov
  126. # [09:55] <adrianba> CM: needs assistance with tests for progress events
  127. # [09:56] <adrianba> JS: has tests based on XHR
  128. # [09:57] <adrianba> JS: testing timing guarantees is hard to test with existing framework
  129. # [09:58] <adrianba> CM: progress events doesn't include timing requirements
  130. # [10:00] * Joins: carmelo (51fd0c1d@128.30.52.43)
  131. # [10:03] <adrianba> Topic: testing
  132. # [10:03] <adrianba> CM: has been call for tests earlier in cycle before LC
  133. # [10:03] <adrianba> DS: thinks good idea, helps editor think about assertions
  134. # [10:03] <adrianba> AB: some of best documentation is test cases
  135. # [10:04] <adrianba> CM: sometimes tests are more useful than spec
  136. # [10:04] <adrianba> DS: sometimes authors copy/paste from tests
  137. # [10:05] <adrianba> DS: what are the practical implications
  138. # [10:05] <adrianba> CM: none, but we agree or not
  139. # [10:05] <adrianba> CM: can be costly to do tests early
  140. # [10:05] <adrianba> AVK: if tests are complex and spec changes then might start again and time is wasted
  141. # [10:06] <adrianba> DS: don't think wasted if helps implementors find out sooner than later
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  144. # [10:06] <adrianba> AVK: without implementation, test isn't useful
  145. # [10:07] <adrianba> CM: for some people, reading tests is easier than reading spec
  146. # [10:07] <adrianba> AVK: tests typically follow implementation, easier to write tests
  147. # [10:08] <adrianba> JS: writing tests during implementation is helpful
  148. # [10:08] <adrianba> AVK: but then you're implementing
  149. # [10:08] <adrianba> CM: not necessarily
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  151. # [10:09] <adrianba> AVK: is there an example of tests contributed without implementation
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  153. # [10:11] <adrianba> (general discussion of timing of test writing and implication of spec changes)
  154. # [10:11] <adrianba> CMont: assuming would start from scratch if spec changes and not necessarily true
  155. # [10:12] <adrianba> JS: of course less work for test author to do as late as possible, but question is whether implementor or test author feels pain
  156. # [10:12] <anne> (that was not my point)
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  158. # [10:12] <adrianba> DS: multiple implementors, only one test author
  159. # [10:12] <anne> (my point was that in case there's no implementation and the spec is just going to LC writing tests is bound to be costly because the chance of the spec changing is huge)
  160. # [10:13] <adrianba> JS: one implementation is often first and generates the feedback for changes
  161. # [10:14] <adrianba> DS: some set of tests before LC would be helpful
  162. # [10:14] <Adam> does it make sense to recommend when it's useful to have tests early, in what situations
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  164. # [10:14] <adrianba> CM: clear that having tests is helpful, having tests thrown away not so much
  165. # [10:14] <adrianba> AB: is it worth knowing situations when having tests is more helpful
  166. # [10:15] <adrianba> AVK: not against idea, but want to note that is has costs
  167. # [10:15] <sicking> Progress events tests: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/test/test_bug435425.html?raw=1
  168. # [10:15] <adrianba> DS: are we going to do something or just talk about it
  169. # [10:15] <adrianba> DS: propose have way WG operates is to have tests early on
  170. # [10:16] <adrianba> DS: make having some tests part of criteria to decide if to publish next draft
  171. # [10:16] <adrianba> CM: opposed to making that a general principle
  172. # [10:16] <adrianba> CM: don't want to hold up publication for not having tests
  173. # [10:16] <chaals> (thanks Jonas)
  174. # [10:17] <adrianba> DS: adds discipline - we're not punishing people for not having tests
  175. # [10:17] <adrianba> DS: would like more discipline in group wrt testing
  176. # [10:18] <adrianba> JS: excessive for all WD, useful for LC
  177. # [10:20] <adrianba> CMont: can construct tests in such a way that change can be less costly
  178. # [10:21] <adrianba> CM: should we insist on tests for LC?
  179. # [10:22] <adrianba> CM: seems to be a rough consensus to try
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  181. # [10:24] * anne will just keep his specs one level before LCWD, but in CR quality
  182. # [10:25] <adrianba> Topic: XHR2
  183. # [10:25] <adrianba> JS: two requests about timeout and json response
  184. # [10:26] <adrianba> AVK: don't need timeouts, should use async or worker
  185. # [10:26] * gsnedders anne: Can you rewrite a whole test runner for me that relies upon sync?
  186. # [10:26] <adrianba> JS: do need timeout in workers
  187. # [10:26] <adrianba> JS: plus people are using sync
  188. # [10:27] <adrianba> JS: don't think people will use more or less because of timeouts
  189. # [10:27] <adrianba> AVK: can add timeouts
  190. # [10:28] <adrianba> JS: responseJSON?
  191. # [10:28] <adrianba> AVK: don't want to be first to add this
  192. # [10:29] <adrianba> JS: json will become part of native ecmascript language
  193. # [10:32] <adrianba> JS: will want to add json in different areas, being first not good enough reason but there are other reasons
  194. # [10:32] <adrianba> CM: do we have a XHR2 timeline
  195. # [10:32] <adrianba> AVK: not really, but there are two implmentations
  196. # [10:32] <adrianba> JS: not of all features
  197. # [10:33] <adrianba> AVK: need other specs to become more stable before can LC
  198. # [10:33] <adrianba> AVK: probably want to add support for files or blobs depending on how that goes
  199. # [10:35] <adrianba> AVK: changes to XHR1 need to also flow into XHR2
  200. # [10:35] <adrianba> CM: really need other specs to move forward then
  201. # [10:35] <adrianba> taking 15 min break
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  213. # [11:11] <chaals> we are actually taking a break until 1.30, and will then meet together with the other half of the group
  214. # [11:11] <gsnedders> Ah, then I'll vanish.
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  227. # [11:34] <chaals> We continue at 1.30 (13h30 local time)
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  269. # [13:50] <MikeSmith> anne: any idea where Henri is?
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  291. # [14:24] <CharlesMcCathieNe> hey chaals, who are you?
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  295. # [14:25] <nrmehta> CM: discuss Access Control
  296. # [14:25] <nrmehta> AVK: Processing model is pretty much done
  297. # [14:26] <nrmehta> JS: Prefetch cannot be cached anyway
  298. # [14:26] <nrmehta> if it is redirected
  299. # [14:26] <nrmehta> AVK: Why not?
  300. # [14:26] <nrmehta> JS: What would you cache
  301. # [14:27] <nrmehta> JS: If there is a graph of redirects from A to B to C and so on, then because these are not 200 OK requests, then the final request begets response and you can cache that
  302. # [14:27] <nrmehta> All but the final one will be cached
  303. # [14:27] <nrmehta> JS: Will review that
  304. # [14:28] <nrmehta> JS: All three submissions will have to opt in to allowed headers?
  305. # [14:28] <nrmehta> AVK: During redirect only check Access-Control-Allow-Origin
  306. # [14:29] <nrmehta> AVK: since OPTIONS is not with credentials
  307. # [14:30] <nrmehta> AVK: The spec says for redirect steps require only Access-Control-Allow-Origin headers and not others such as Allow-Headers
  308. # [14:30] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@81.253.57.122)
  309. # [14:30] <nrmehta> JS: This may be more XHR2 question
  310. # [14:30] <nrmehta> JS: If the redirect goes cross site
  311. # [14:30] <nrmehta> AVK: XHR2 would need to use Access Control
  312. # [14:31] <nrmehta> CM: Does this mean you are happy
  313. # [14:31] <nrmehta> JS: Yeah as long as I know what it means
  314. # [14:32] <nrmehta> CM: Anything else?
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  316. # [14:32] <nrmehta> JS: Some editorial and behavioral things
  317. # [14:32] <nrmehta> JS: User agent can put in stricter requirements such as clearing the preflight cache
  318. # [14:32] <nrmehta> JS: Any requests can be denied
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  320. # [14:33] <nrmehta> JS: Third party cookie preferences are differently managed by various browser
  321. # [14:33] <nrmehta> JS: Should the spec say browsers are allowed to override algorithms based on user prefs
  322. # [14:33] <nrmehta> JS: This should not be in the algorithm but should still be normative
  323. # [14:34] <nrmehta> JS: This should not be in the algorithm but should still be normative?
  324. # [14:34] <nrmehta> AVK: It does sound that some requirements are normative?
  325. # [14:34] <nrmehta> CM: That means complete implementation, write implementation report
  326. # [14:34] <nrmehta> AVK: Do the editorial work... That is
  327. # [14:34] <nrmehta> JS: Improve security considerations
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  329. # [14:35] <nrmehta> AVK: Does that mean I need to do it?
  330. # [14:35] <nrmehta> JS: One section refers to both Web site authors and to server authors
  331. # [14:35] <nrmehta> AVK: Thinks that all are for server authors
  332. # [14:35] <nrmehta> AVK: The first is not, the rest is server
  333. # [14:36] <nrmehta> JS: Break those apart and make those exhaustive
  334. # [14:36] <nrmehta> AVK: I can elaborate the ones I have written and JS can add more
  335. # [14:36] <nrmehta> JS: Clients need to be aware of redirects and if someone is redirecting to other sites
  336. # [14:36] <nrmehta> JS: then handle the data appropriately
  337. # [14:36] <nrmehta> AVK: Why exactly?
  338. # [14:37] <nrmehta> JS: If Web sites have Access-Control opt in, then if a script publishes third-party data in a public way
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  340. # [14:38] <nrmehta> JS: then the server A may have redirected a Web site to some other place, and the site author needs to know that they may not have the source they are thinking they got
  341. # [14:38] <nrmehta> JS: Some sort of redirect event may help
  342. # [14:38] <nrmehta> AVK: A list of redirected URIs may be
  343. # [14:39] <nrmehta> JS: prefer events, but any mechanism is fine
  344. # [14:39] <nrmehta> AVK: May be also add more examples
  345. # [14:39] <nrmehta> CM: All we need now is examples, tests, implementations, and interoperability
  346. # [14:40] <nrmehta> JS: I wrote infinitely running tests, but only reports at the end
  347. # [14:40] <nrmehta> (tongue firmly in cheek)
  348. # [14:40] <nrmehta> AVK: Hixie changed something in HTML5 that changes serialization of origin
  349. # [14:40] <nrmehta> JS: We should always make the null origin string rather than mask it
  350. # [14:41] <nrmehta> JS: If you don't know which site is making the request, then the server should return Allow-Origin: *
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  352. # [14:41] <nrmehta> JS: It seems weird to have AC-AO: null
  353. # [14:42] <nrmehta> JS: so don't generate a response AO: *
  354. # [14:43] <nrmehta> AVK: If you have a data URI, and that server should not allow * domain
  355. # [14:43] <nrmehta> JS: If you are requesting from null domain, disallow any third party?
  356. # [14:44] <nrmehta> JS: Mozilla never produces null domain
  357. # [14:44] <nrmehta> AVK: domain is null if the user types in a javascript: URL after loading an about:blank page
  358. # [14:44] <nrmehta> JS: That seems about right
  359. # [14:44] <nrmehta> JS: We don't allow redirect for data URI
  360. # [14:45] <nrmehta> JS: If you do redirect to JavaScript URI, then many pages will also show ...
  361. # [14:45] <nrmehta> JS: I lost it
  362. # [14:45] <nrmehta> AVK: In Opera, it works
  363. # [14:45] <nrmehta> AVK: Firefox does redirect as well.
  364. # [14:45] <sicking> s/so don't generate a response AO: */so force people to say * if they want to allow 'null' to read data/
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  366. # [14:47] <nrmehta> AVK: Should we provide an explicit rule for this?
  367. # [14:47] <nrmehta> JS: If the Origin header was null and if credentials flag is set, then there is no valid response
  368. # [14:48] <nrmehta> JS: We wouldn't allow Origin to be echoed back, if Origin is null, and we are already disallowing * if using credentials, then we are fine
  369. # [14:48] <nrmehta> CM: Do you have a rough idea?
  370. # [14:49] <nrmehta> AVK: Oh yeah, we do have another one
  371. # [14:49] <nrmehta> AVK: If we have to normalize header names that we have to set in various AC headers
  372. # [14:49] <nrmehta> AVK: Should request headers be all lower case?
  373. # [14:49] <nrmehta> JS: That makes sense
  374. # [14:50] <nrmehta> CM: Anything else in the way
  375. # [14:50] <nrmehta> AVK: Not really
  376. # [14:50] <nrmehta> CM: Rough timeline?
  377. # [14:50] <nrmehta> AVK: Depends on editorial bit
  378. # [14:50] <nrmehta> JS: Can be done in LC
  379. # [14:51] <nrmehta> CM: That is OK, but if you are planning on that, then put in a pointer about informative sections that may change after editorial changes
  380. # [14:51] <nrmehta> JS: The changes for UA preferences based overriding would be substantive changes
  381. # [14:51] <nrmehta> JS: Is it possible to make normative changes in LC?
  382. # [14:51] <nrmehta> CM: You can, but that would require another LC
  383. # [14:52] <nrmehta> DS: It is subject to the transition call
  384. # [14:52] <nrmehta> DS: If there are two or three changes that everyone agreed ahead, then you can go from LC to CR
  385. # [14:52] <nrmehta> DS: If someone disagrees you would have to go back to LC
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  387. # [14:53] <nrmehta> JS: In most CR phases, some feedback will cause normative changes
  388. # [14:53] <nrmehta> DS: Then you have to go back to LC
  389. # [14:53] <nrmehta> DS: But you can go back from LC to PR
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  391. # [14:53] <nrmehta> once such changes are agreed to
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  393. # [14:53] <nrmehta> CM: Basic idea is to avoid surprises
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  395. # [14:54] <nrmehta> JS: It is an implementor's dilemma whether to wait until CR or do it earlier
  396. # [14:55] <nrmehta> CM: Anne -- you need some work before you can be in LC
  397. # [14:55] <nrmehta> AVK: I will be away for three-four weeks
  398. # [14:55] <nrmehta> AVK: I will have time end of Novemeber/December
  399. # [14:56] <nrmehta> AVK: Any other business?
  400. # [14:56] <nrmehta> DS: Who's editing the Window spec?
  401. # [14:56] <nrmehta> CM: Just let me know when you are done Robin
  402. # [14:58] <nrmehta> CM: We are done, thanks for coming
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  425. # [15:52] <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
  426. # [15:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/21-webapps-minutes.html chaals
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The end :)