/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2009-02-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Feb 04 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  28. # [10:35] <arve> Scott Wilson's response on storage is actually pretty convincing
  29. # [10:36] <arve> a widget implementation running on a web server could not trivially use localStorage
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  37. # [14:47] <arve> marcos: Scott Wilson made some sense, IMO
  38. # [14:48] <marcos> I'll take a look. Have not read it yet.
  39. # [14:51] <arve> marcos: the idea is that localStorage may not be great for server-side widget solutions
  40. # [14:53] <marcos> yeah, it would make little sense there. However, server-side widgets are not in scope.
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  43. # [15:40] <ArtB> marcos?
  44. # [15:41] <marcos> Artb, yep
  45. # [15:41] <ArtB> Are sections "3.0, 3.1, 3.2, 3.3" in P&C kinda' stable ATM?
  46. # [15:41] <marcos> You tell me :)
  47. # [15:41] <ArtB> I don't want to review them if you're about to make some changes
  48. # [15:41] <marcos> Let me make sure I've checked in the latest draft
  49. # [15:41] <marcos> I did some changes last night
  50. # [15:42] <ArtB> I'll wait until I get a GO from you
  51. # [15:43] <marcos> ...uploading...
  52. # [15:43] <marcos> and done. Go!
  53. # [15:44] <ArtB> OK; will review by the end of the day. Thanks!
  54. # [15:44] <ArtB> btw, I noticed there is still a ref to Widgets-Security
  55. # [15:45] <ArtB> Marcos, the version you just checked in addresses the SVG issue Robin raised, rigth?
  56. # [15:46] <marcos> yeah. I added SVG as a default start file, but removed SVG as being required by a user agent
  57. # [15:51] <anne> marcos, what's wrong with a wiki page?
  58. # [15:51] <anne> inventing new JSON formats, RDF overkill, yet another Web service, geez :)
  59. # [15:51] <marcos> It means people need to input things by hand... and people like me, will likely screw it up. I prefer to have a nice simple form to put stuff into.
  60. # [15:52] <anne> i'm sure someone wil notice
  61. # [15:52] <anne> also, you could create an interface for the wiki :p
  62. # [15:52] <marcos> if we can create an interface for the wiki, then sure! )
  63. # [15:52] <marcos> :)
  64. # [15:53] <marcos> All I care about is having a form that allows me to structure the input
  65. # [15:53] <marcos> and edit it easily if I need to.
  66. # [15:54] <marcos> however, if we made the wiki thing dead easy, like...
  67. # [15:54] <marcos> type: techreport
  68. # [15:54] <anne> it's not like wiki markup is rocket science
  69. # [15:54] <marcos> editor: Some Person.
  70. # [15:54] <anne> just copy and paste some existing field and modify values
  71. # [15:54] <marcos> no, it's not. What do you suggest the format would look like?
  72. # [15:55] * marcos is willing to be convinced if he sees an easy format that he can put data into.
  73. # [15:56] * arve personally loathes wiki syntax
  74. # [15:56] <anne> HEADER
  75. # [15:56] <anne> LINK THERESTOFTHEDATA
  76. # [15:56] <anne> with LINK being optional
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  79. # [15:59] * marcos_ not following. Walk me through the process of, say, adding the XHR spec.
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  82. # [16:02] <anne> [HTML5]
  83. # [16:02] <anne> (http://www.whatwg.org/html5 "HTML 5 (WIP)") I. Hickson, editor. WHATWG, 2008.
  84. # [16:02] <anne> or some such
  85. # [16:02] <marcos> BTW, if gsnedders can already scrape W3C specs and RFCs, then that is like 90% of the problem solved. I agree that that DB must not be built into Anolis (but could ship as a separate file or simply downloaded from the Interweb). The only problem is ISO specs and possibly a few other sources.
  86. # [16:02] <anne> the problem is also that URLs and whatnot fricking change all the time
  87. # [16:05] <marcos> So do the editors, etc. I think the RDF file for the TR page can deal with all that for the W3C case. I'm not sure where the RFC data is coming from, but I imagine it's also computationally generated.
  88. # [16:06] <anne> it seems easier to just update the wiki then edit fricking RDF
  89. # [16:08] <marcos> Completely agree - unless we had a front end. Looking at Bert's format, that is more what I would like to see in the wiki.
  90. # [16:08] <anne> why?
  91. # [16:09] <marcos> for me, personally, it's easier to read and write than "(http://www.whatwg.org/html5 "HTML 5 (WIP)") I. Hickson, editor. WHATWG, 2008"
  92. # [16:09] <anne> interesting, seems like it's way more lines and you'd have to remember all kinds of variables...
  93. # [16:11] <marcos> yes, it's more lines, but with your proposal I need to remember where to put comas, full stops, quotes, and parenthesis
  94. # [16:11] <marcos> and the correct order of the data
  95. # [16:12] <anne> how are you currently doing references?
  96. # [16:13] <anne> the idea is that it is a simple mapping of what you currently use, except that it is mostly auto generated
  97. # [16:13] <marcos> so, it seems that it's a matter of personal preference. Like I said, I could live with your data structure, but would prefer Bert's. You will notice that my referencing is all kinda screwed because I usually just go and copy and paste references from different documents.
  98. # [16:13] <anne> so the wiki syntax should not really be that important
  99. # [16:15] <marcos> I think it is important if you need to write it and process it. I think not having a guiding structure makes it more prone to human error and harder to maintain (e.g., you use a coma instead of a full stop somwhere)
  100. # [16:23] <anne> the full text would just be copied and pasted in the HTML
  101. # [16:23] <anne> there's no special processing going on there
  102. # [16:23] <anne> also, the idea of having it not in the spec is that you do not need to maintain it most of the time...
  103. # [16:23] <marcos> ah, ok
  104. # [16:23] <anne> so read is high and write is low
  105. # [16:23] <marcos> I'm with you.
  106. # [16:24] * marcos was overcomplicating things.
  107. # [16:25] <marcos> lets go with that.
  108. # [16:25] <anne> gsnedders, ^^
  109. # [16:53] * gsnedders reads
  110. # [16:55] <gsnedders> anne: The problem is adding in <cite> and <a> where needed
  111. # [16:55] <gsnedders> marcos: FYI, there is an XML index of the RFCs on rfc-editor.org
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  113. # [16:55] <anne> gsnedders, hmm, why?
  114. # [16:56] <anne> gsnedders, just wrap the link in <cite>
  115. # [16:56] <gsnedders> anne: If you have just plain text in the wiki, where should any cite element go around the name?
  116. # [16:56] <gsnedders> anne: But that's not what cite is for, if you believe HTML5
  117. # [16:56] <anne> gsnedders, you scrape the HTML presumably, which has the link
  118. # [16:56] <anne> gsnedders, the link contains the title of the document
  119. # [16:56] <Lachy> I just want it to be a really simple plain text format and let the tool worry about getting the exact referencing format right
  120. # [16:57] <gsnedders> anne: Scrape what HTML, though?
  121. # [16:57] <anne> gsnedders, the wiki page
  122. # [16:57] <anne> i'm fine with using a different format if people prefer that
  123. # [16:57] <gsnedders> anne: OK, then I have say, "CSS 2.1 Specification, B. Bos, T. Çelik, I. Hickson, H. Lie. W3C, September 2003. The latest version of the CSS 2.1 specification is available at http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/"
  124. # [16:57] <anne> i'm even fine with using a Web service if someone signs up to maintain it
  125. # [16:57] <anne> i just think that using a wik is the easiest solution
  126. # [16:58] <anne> and using the WHATWG wiki would help, since most of us already have an account
  127. # [16:58] <gsnedders> anne: Now, if I want "CSS 2.1 Specification" in a <cite>, how does that get there?
  128. # [16:58] <gsnedders> Ironically, I don't think I do
  129. # [16:58] <anne> gsnedders, you wouldn't mark it up like that
  130. # [16:58] <anne> see e.g. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#references
  131. # [16:58] <gsnedders> anne: That still has a cite
  132. # [16:59] <anne> gsnedders, anyway, yes, around the link
  133. # [16:59] <gsnedders> anne: So just put the cite around the link?
  134. # [16:59] <anne> yes
  135. # [16:59] <gsnedders> anne: OK, now what do I do for something like ISO8601 which can't be linked to?
  136. # [16:59] <anne> anyway, i'm not wedded to the format
  137. # [16:59] * gsnedders on the whole agrees with Lachy
  138. # [16:59] <anne> gsnedders, don't have a link and don't have <cite>?
  139. # [16:59] <anne> gsnedders, ok
  140. # [17:00] <anne> gsnedders, I just don't want complexity and want something that's central and easy to update so it affects everything I (and others) edit
  141. # [17:01] <anne> gsnedders, and preferably something I already have an account with and check semi-regularly
  142. # [17:01] <anne> does that help?
  143. # [17:01] <gsnedders> Yeah
  144. # [17:03] <marcos> I'm easy as both solutions would work. However, I would want W3C and RFCs coming from their authoritative sources, not from the Wiki.
  145. # [17:07] <Lachy> I tried to reverse engineer Bert's format. This is what I can determine the variables are:
  146. # [17:07] <Lachy> %A - Author
  147. # [17:07] <Lachy> %B - (unknown)
  148. # [17:07] <Lachy> %C - Location (City, State, Country)
  149. # [17:07] <Lachy> %D - Date
  150. # [17:07] <Lachy> %I - Institute
  151. # [17:07] <Lachy> %J - (unknown)
  152. # [17:08] <Lachy> %L - Label (e.g. [RFC2119])
  153. # [17:08] <Lachy> %N - Issue number, maybe?
  154. # [17:08] <Lachy> %O - (unknown)
  155. # [17:08] <Lachy> %P - (unknown)
  156. # [17:08] <Lachy> %Q - Working group, maybe?
  157. # [17:08] <Lachy> %R - Reference, maybe?
  158. # [17:08] <Lachy> %S - Status
  159. # [17:08] <Lachy> %T - Title
  160. # [17:08] <Lachy> %U - URL
  161. # [17:08] <Lachy> %V - Volume
  162. # [17:08] <gsnedders> Lachy: See usage under http://www.manpagez.com/man/1/refer/
  163. # [17:08] <Lachy> the "(unknown)" ones show up in the file, but I couldn't figure out what they were
  164. # [17:09] <Lachy> oh, I thought it was Bert's custom format
  165. # [17:09] <gsnedders> Lachy: Nope
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  167. # [17:10] <Lachy> how did you know it was in that format? Had you seen it before, or was it documented somewhere?
  168. # [17:11] <gsnedders> No idea. I found it was that format ages ago.
  169. # [17:11] <gsnedders> I probably started looking around when I first saw it to see if I could see if it was in a known format
  170. # [17:11] <Lachy> ok
  171. # [17:12] <Lachy> well, if we use that format, I'd want a web service with a simple form to fill out all the info. I wouldn't want to write that manually
  172. # [17:13] <anne> then you'd need to worry about authentication and such, seems annoying
  173. # [17:13] <gsnedders> The problem is troff is dying, so it's really questionable about whether we want it
  174. # [17:13] <anne> also, you need to write and maintain it, which seems even worse
  175. # [17:14] <gsnedders> RIS And BibTeX seem to generally have the best support
  176. # [17:15] <gsnedders> In a lot of ways I'm tempted to use BibTeX
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  180. # [17:22] <Lachy> bibtex looks a little complicated. But if it's just for non-W3C and non-RFC specs that we'd need to do it manually, I could live with it
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The end :)