/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2009-02-09 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Feb 09 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #webapps
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# [10:28] * Joins: arve (arve@213.236.208.22)
# [10:32] <timeless> heycam/arve?
# [10:32] <timeless> got time for a basic question about Selectors?
# [10:33] <heycam> hi timeless
# [10:33] <timeless> i'm reading http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api/
# [10:33] <timeless> (for the first time, i'm a bad boy)
# [10:34] <timeless> it seems that i'm under the mistaken impression that selectors are not related to css
# [10:34] <heycam> hmm?
# [10:34] <timeless> and i'm trying to figure out where i got confused
# [10:34] <heycam> "Selectors, which are widely used in CSS ..."
# [10:34] <timeless> If the user agent also supports some level of CSS, the implementation should support the same set of selectors in both these APIs and CSS.
# [10:34] <timeless> is there a css level 0?
# [10:34] <heycam> not that i know of
# [10:35] <timeless> so am i wrong in thinking that the sentence i quoted is confusing/poorly stated
# [10:35] <timeless> i'm assuming it's trying to say if it supports css2 or a css3 module or something bigger
# [10:35] <heycam> so i think what it means is that if the UA supports css style sheets, then the types of selectors it allows in the style sheet rules should be the same as those usable with selectors-api
# [10:35] <timeless> yeah, i'm sure that's what it's trying to say
# [10:35] <timeless> but i feel that it mostly failed
# [10:36] <heycam> i'm unclear what the term "CSS" by itself strictly refers to
# [10:37] <heycam> we had the same issue with SVG Tiny 1.2
# [10:37] <timeless> heh
# [10:37] <timeless> ok, so i'll raise it and let charles deal
# [10:37] <heycam> k
# [10:37] <heycam> 1.2T doesn't require support for style sheets, but there are some parts of CSS that supply
# [10:37] <timeless> just trying not to complain needlessly
# [10:38] <heycam> *apply
# [10:38] <timeless> 1.2 <t> ?
# [10:38] <timeless> oh tiny
# [10:38] <heycam> yeah
# [10:38] <timeless> sorry, i need coffee or something
# [10:38] <timeless> but i don't drink
# [10:38] <heycam> never a bad time to start ^_^
# [10:38] <timeless> The NodeList object returned by the querySelectorAll() method must be static, not live. ([DOM-LEVEL-3-CORE], section 1.1.1) Subsequent changes to the structure of the underlying document must not be reflected in the NodeList object.
# [10:39] * timeless tries to figure out to which thing the parenthetical is bound
# [10:40] <heycam> anyway, Lachy is probably better positioned to answer the selectors questions
# [10:40] <timeless> is it really bound to the second sentence?
# [10:40] * heycam goes to watch the latest battlestar
# [10:40] <timeless> heh
# [10:40] <heycam> (looks like it should be the first)
# [10:40] <timeless> ok
# [10:40] <heycam> probably the second sentence was added later...
# [10:40] <timeless> thankfully my questions are mostly English related
# [10:40] <timeless> and not truly substantive
# [10:40] <timeless> except to the extent to which things can be misinterpretted
# [10:42] <timeless> > This group of selectors should not use namespace prefixes that need to be resolved.
# [10:42] <timeless> > This specification does not provide support for resolving arbitrary namespace prefixes.
# [10:42] <timeless> did the first sentence mean that the selectors could use namespace prefixes that don't need to be resolved? :)
# [10:43] <timeless> oh
# [10:43] * timeless sighs
# [10:43] <timeless> so it's ok to have *:foo
# [10:44] * Joins: anne (annevk@85.196.122.246)
# [10:47] <timeless> var x = document.querySelector("#foo, #bar");
# [10:47] <timeless> x would contain the first element in the document with an ID of either foo or bar (or both).
# [10:47] <timeless> how does one manage to have an element with two ids? :)
# [10:48] <timeless> or is it saying it would select both the first element w/ id foo and the first element w/ id bar?
# [10:48] <anne> with xml:id and the IDness of id attributes of elements in the XHTML namespace such a thing would be possible
# [10:48] <anne> DOM Level 3 Core has ways to give an element several IDs as well
# [10:49] <timeless> oh gah
# [10:49] <timeless> do browsers really support that?
# [10:49] <anne> several people are of the opinion that we should remove that possibility (and I agree), but it seemed that stating the theoretically correct thing in the specification would be better for now
# [10:50] <timeless> ok
# [10:50] <anne> I don't think any browsers supports that, no, including browsers that support xml:id...
# [10:50] <timeless> heh
# [10:50] <timeless> um, ok...
# [10:50] <timeless> so, am i right in thinking that there are the following possibilities:
# [10:50] <timeless> * no matching objects
# [10:50] <timeless> * only #foo
# [10:50] <timeless> * only #bar
# [10:51] <timeless> * one object #foo, a distinct object #bar
# [10:51] <timeless> * evil namespace world where there is one object matching both #oo and #bar
# [10:51] <timeless> * two objects w/ id #foo, but only the first is taken
# [10:51] <timeless> * similarly for #bar
# [10:51] <timeless> ... a few other less interesting cases
# [10:52] <timeless> oh wait
# [10:52] <timeless> does querySelector always only return a single node?
# [10:52] * timeless goes to read more of the spec
# [10:52] <anne> querySelector returns a single Element, always
# [10:52] <timeless> ok
# [10:52] <anne> querySelectorAll returns a list
# [10:52] <timeless> right
# [10:52] * timeless grumbles
# [10:53] <timeless> ok
# [10:53] <timeless> i claim the text is buggy
# [10:53] <anne> Selectors also supports #foo#bar in theory
# [10:53] <timeless> (my explanation has changed, but still)
# [10:53] <timeless> sure sure
# [10:53] <anne> what part is buggy?
# [10:53] <anne> oh, it doesn't account for not having a match at all?
# [10:53] <timeless> i don't think 'or both' adds value
# [10:54] <timeless> all that matters is that it return the first thing that matches either
# [10:54] <timeless> if there's a node and it matches one, and it's the first such node
# [10:54] <timeless> then it's the first such node, whether or not it also has the other id
# [10:54] <anne> it's an example and it's fun to be pedantic there :)
# [10:55] <timeless> but yeah, i'll also accept your answer of it not mentioning the nothing case
# [10:55] <timeless> and also
# [10:55] <timeless> it used 'contain'
# [10:55] <timeless> to me, contain implies 'list'
# [10:55] <timeless> which is where my original confusion probably started
# [10:57] <timeless> > var x = document.querySelector("#foo, #bar");
# [10:57] <timeless> > x would contain the first element in the document with an ID of either foo or bar (or both).
# [10:57] <timeless> 1. could you change 'contain' - i read contain to mean list, which of course is wrong for querySelector()
# [10:57] <timeless> 2. it might be null - or whatever the return is for the case where there's no match
# [10:57] <timeless> 3. i think the '(or both)' bit doesn't add value, even understanding the case where there's a node matching #foo#bar, if it's the first that matches #foo or #bar, it's still the first that matches #foo or #bar and the fact that it matches #foo#bar is absolutely irrelevant
# [10:58] <anne> ok s/contain/be/
# [10:58] <anne> Lachy, ^^
# [10:58] <timeless> oh
# [10:58] <timeless> should i send my comments to lachy and not charles?
# [10:58] * timeless could send them to the list
# [11:00] <timeless> > This specification introduces two methods that take a group of selectors
# [11:00] <timeless> > it requires a script like the following that iterates
# [11:00] <timeless> that => which ?
# [11:00] <timeless> > With these methods, it is easier to match a set of Element nodes based on specific criteria.
# [11:00] <timeless> easier than what? (yes, i know the next sentence would explain, but I don't think English allows for that.)
# [11:00] <timeless> > The implementation must first trim any leading or trailing whitespace from the value of the selectors parameter.
# [11:00] <timeless> or => and ?
# [11:00] <timeless> If the user agent also supports some level of CSS, the implementation should support the same set of selectors in both these APIs and CSS.
# [11:00] <timeless> This is poorly written, at first parse I concluded that selectors weren't CSS (there is no CSS level 0), and CSS3 comes in modules.
# [11:00] <timeless> The goal is presumably to indicate that if some other entrypoint to CSS supports something, then this API should support the same thing with the same syntax. But it didn't manage to read that way.
# [11:00] <timeless> > The NodeList object returned by the querySelectorAll() method must be static, not live.
# [11:00] <timeless> > ([DOM-LEVEL-3-CORE], section 1.1.1) Subsequent changes to the structure of the underlying document must not be reflected in the NodeList object.
# [11:00] <timeless> I believe that the parenthetical should be part of the first sentence instead of after the period.
# [11:00] <timeless> > DOM3 Core defines several methods for checking for interface support, or for obtaining implementations of interfaces, using feature strings.
# [11:00] <timeless> > ([DOM-LEVEL-3-CORE], section 1.3.6) A DOM application can use these methods, each of which accept feature and version parameters, using the values "Selectors-API" and "1.0" (respectively).
# [11:00] <timeless> I believe that the parenthetical should be part of the first sentence instead of after the period.
# [11:00] <timeless> note that you do sometimes put the period after, as in:
# [11:00] <timeless> > If the group of selectors include namespace prefixes that need to be resolved, the implementation must raise a NAMESPACE_ERR exception ([DOM-LEVEL-3-CORE], section 1.4).
# [11:00] <timeless> ---
# [11:00] <timeless> that brings me to where you came in
# [11:00] * Quits: arve (arve@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
# [11:01] <timeless> oh, there's always an apology for not submiting comments earlier :)
# [11:01] <anne> sending them to the list would be cool
# [11:03] * Joins: arve (arve@213.236.208.22)
# [11:04] * timeless searches for a pair of words
# [11:05] <timeless> > This would cause each selected element to be removed from the DOM, but each element will remain in the NodeList.
# [11:05] <timeless> > If the list were a live NodeList, removing an item from the DOM would also remove the element from the list and adjust
# [11:05] <timeless> > the indexes of subsequent elements. That would have adverse effects upon the loop because not all selected elements
# [11:05] <timeless> > would be processed.
# [11:05] <timeless> I know that explanatory text is valuable, but i don't particularly like this explanatory text in a normative section
# [11:05] <timeless> -- is that a reasonable complaint?
# [11:05] <Lachy> timeless, send comments to public-webapps
# [11:05] <timeless> lachy: will do
# [11:05] <timeless> thankfully i'm almost done
# [11:05] * Lachy is reading the back log...
# [11:05] * timeless appreciates small documents
# [11:05] <anne> timeless, you can ask it to be made a non-normative note
# [11:06] <anne> timeless, those can occur in normative sections
# [11:06] * timeless nods
# [11:06] <timeless> done
# [11:06] <timeless> :(
# [11:06] <timeless> why don't we have pagemarks?
# [11:06] <anne> pagemarks?
# [11:06] <timeless> a customer of my browser complained that he didn't want to restart his browser because he'd lose his place in the page he was reading
# [11:06] <timeless> well, some clever person already took 'bookmarks'
# [11:06] <timeless> so i clearly can't use that term :(
# [11:07] <timeless> and yes, i know about #foo
# [11:07] <timeless> but that only works if the document and useragent are amazingly friendly, and they aren't
# [11:07] <anne> interesting
# [11:07] <timeless> and i know in theory about xpath, but if you think xpath solves the problem
# [11:07] <anne> i wonder if Opera keeps position
# [11:07] <timeless> ...
# [11:07] <timeless> anyway, an off topic rant
# [11:08] <Lachy> timeless, you could file a feature request bug with various browser vendors asking for them to remember the current scroll position on the page when the browser restarts
# [11:08] <timeless> lachy: including the one i develop?
# [11:08] <timeless> either our ui spec owner would refuse
# [11:08] <timeless> or we'd run out of time
# [11:08] <Lachy> which one do you develop?
# [11:08] <timeless> or we'd do it wrong
# [11:08] <timeless> MicroB
# [11:08] <Lachy> never heard of it
# [11:08] <timeless> you guys don't have any n800s lying around?
# [11:09] <Lachy> what's an n800?
# [11:09] <heycam> :( "In particular, SVG support is disabled due to unacceptable performance" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroB
# [11:09] <timeless> http://images.google.com/images?rlz=1C1GGLS_enFI291FI307&sourceid=chrome&q=n800&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=UgCQSfPYHI_-0AW3ovGuCw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title
# [11:09] <timeless> heycam: yeah well
# [11:09] <timeless> sorry :)
# [11:09] <heycam> heh
# [11:09] <timeless> xul is also disabled
# [11:10] <timeless> everyone has features they love which are missing
# [11:10] <timeless> egads
# [11:10] <timeless> this spec uses big words
# [11:11] <timeless> In documents comprising elements from multiple namespaces
# [11:11] <timeless> ^^^^^^^^^^
# [11:11] <Lachy> wtf? how is comprising a big word?
# [11:11] <timeless> well, typically you'd want 'containing'
# [11:11] <timeless> comprising is sorta the reverse
# [11:11] <Lachy> what?
# [11:11] <timeless> unless you mean comprised of
# [11:11] <timeless> and the 'of' isn't in the ting
# [11:11] <heycam> "comprising" without "of" is correct
# [11:11] <timeless> s/ting/thing/
# [11:12] <Lachy> no, "comprised of" is incorrect grammar.
# [11:12] <timeless> heycam: really?
# [11:12] <timeless> alright
# [11:12] <Lachy> timeless, it means "consists of", which is I think where that common mistake comes from
# [11:12] <timeless> this is why i prefer irc over email
# [11:12] <timeless> lachy: as i said 'big words'
# [11:12] <timeless> :)
# [11:13] <timeless> i've spent too much time in places where en isn't the native language
# [11:13] <Lachy> timeless, is your native langauge English, American English or something else?
# [11:13] <timeless> it was en-US
# [11:13] <Lachy> oh, that explains the bad grammar then :-)
# [11:13] <timeless> but i've spent nearly three years listening to en-FI
# [11:13] <timeless> and en-RU and en-PO
# [11:14] <timeless> > excluding all others, requires an additional processing to filter the result.
# [11:14] <timeless> an additional processing?
# [11:15] <timeless> ^^ => ""
# [11:16] <timeless> requires additional processing, or an additional step
# [11:16] <timeless> or is 'an additional processing' really valid en-GB?
# [11:16] <timeless> eww, svg has a video tag?
# [11:16] <heycam> sure, it had one before html did :)
# [11:16] <Lachy> timeless, looks like a typo to me
# [11:16] <anne> SVG has imported SMIL stuff
# [11:17] <timeless> lachy: ok
# [11:17] <timeless> anne: oh glory
# [11:17] <timeless> wait,isn't html importing smil too?
# [11:17] * timeless looks at the MI graph and gets confused
# [11:17] * timeless runs back to the safety of... minefields
# [11:17] <heycam> MI of svg's interfaces?
# [11:17] <anne> there was a proposal at some point from MS to have SMIL in HTML (HTML+Time) which then turned into SMIL which never worked with HTML
# [11:18] <timeless> heh
# [11:18] <timeless> heycam: i'm ignoring those, and yes i know of them
# [11:18] <anne> the interesting bits of SMIL are now in CSS transitions and animations, I think
# [11:18] <timeless> alright, sent
# [11:19] <timeless> thanks for listening, and sorry for taking so much time over so few substantive words
# [11:19] <timeless> oh brother
# [11:19] <timeless> i screwed up
# [11:19] <timeless> wiat
# [11:19] <timeless> yeah
# [11:19] <timeless> ok, this is silly
# [11:20] <timeless> why not just mark section 8 as "This section is non-normative"
# [11:20] <timeless> section 3/3.1 have that nice line in it
# [11:20] <timeless> i know there's a global thing that says that examples aren't normative
# [11:20] <timeless> but...
# [11:21] <timeless> also, why is the entire 8 examples thing enclosed in a single || bar section
# [11:21] <timeless> it seems more like a single 'example'
# [11:22] <timeless> the style in 5 is much easier
# [11:22] <timeless> n.b., i was reading the document as text/plain in a data:text/html,<textarea> because all the color is too distracting
# [11:22] <anne> there's user style sheets :)
# [11:23] <timeless> um
# [11:23] <timeless> i'm not writing a user style sheet to fix lachy's style
# [11:23] <timeless> or rather, i did
# [11:23] <timeless> it's called text/plain
# [11:23] <timeless> and it's the one i got by copying the page into my <textarea>
# [11:23] <timeless> but anything more complicated than that...
# [11:23] <timeless> speaking of opera
# [11:23] <timeless> is there a mode for "don't download css"?
# [11:24] <timeless> i'm trying to get my web browser to load wpost.com articles w/o spending ~700k per article
# [11:24] * timeless sighs
# [11:24] <timeless> and is the opera.com start page intentionally designed to screw up in chrome? :)
# [11:25] <anne> maybe Chrome is designed to screw up our start page?
# [11:25] <anne> :p
# [11:25] <timeless> quite possibly
# [11:25] <timeless> i'm not going to claim chrome is a good browser
# [11:25] <timeless> its spell checker actually sucks
# [11:26] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
# [11:26] <timeless> i had to use ctrl-right from the start of my text area to convince it to spell check the text
# [11:27] * timeless goes back to trying to decide how to deal w/ 30/64 updated packages
# [11:27] <timeless> um, anne?
# [11:27] <timeless> can you tell your windows installer people that they're violating a HIG by having an accelerator (C) on the Cancel button in the wizard
# [11:28] <timeless> http://snapshot.opera.com/windows/o100a1_1139m.exe
# [11:28] <arve> timeless: View → Style → Manage Modes (In Opera 10, similar location for earlier versions)
# [11:29] <timeless> fwiw, it gets really bad in advanced
# [11:29] <timeless> Install Opera 10.00 to:
# [11:29] <timeless> C:\Program Files\Opera 10 Preview\ [_Change...]
# [11:29] <timeless> [ < _Back ] [ _Next > ] [ _Cancel ]
# [11:29] <arve> Timeless: https://bugs.opera.com/wizard/
# [11:29] <timeless> What kind of problem is this? *
# [11:29] <timeless> Spec violation
# [11:30] <timeless> :)
# [11:30] <arve> you'll get a bug number reference afterwards, please give me that reference
# [11:30] <timeless> alright
# [11:30] <arve> If a spec from microsoft exists, saying that you shouldn't have accelerators from the cancel button, then yes, it's a spec violation
# [11:30] <timeless> ok
# [11:32] <timeless> http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2008/05/08/8467905.aspx
# [11:32] <timeless> is that sufficient or do i need to find the official ms ref?
# [11:34] <timeless> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb545462.aspx?ppud=4
# [11:34] <timeless> will do
# [11:34] <timeless> Bug Report Wizard
# [11:34] <timeless> An error occurred while processing your bug report
# [11:34] <timeless> Please try again later.
# [11:35] <timeless> Bug Report Wizard
# [11:35] <timeless> Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /var/www/wizard/header.php:1) in /var/www/wizardcore.php on line 284
# [11:35] <timeless> Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /var/www/wizard/header.php:1) in /var/www/wizardcore.php on line 285
# [11:35] <timeless> arve: i give up
# [11:35] <timeless> bug by mail.
# [11:37] <timeless> send me a bug number in reply :)
# [11:37] <timeless> bug submitted by email :)
# [11:38] <timeless> oh man
# [11:38] <timeless> the behavior of the change location page is really broken because of that binding
# [11:38] <timeless> sometimes the change button can appear to have focus and be default
# [11:38] <timeless> but pressing alt-c triggers the cancel button instead
# [11:43] * timeless frowns
# [11:43] <timeless> do you guys actually test this stuff? :)
# [11:49] <timeless> arve/anne: don't take this the wrong way
# [11:49] <timeless> in <5mins of use i found a bunch of bugs in android
# [11:49] <anne> oh, no worries
# [11:49] <timeless> and it's assumed i've found more bugs in the Maemo platform than anyone who wasn't paid to do so
# [11:50] <anne> btw, Selectors are actually separate from CSS
# [11:50] * anne was skimming through the comments
# [11:50] <timeless> ok
# [11:50] <timeless> i understand they are/aren't
# [11:50] <timeless> it's still confusing
# [11:50] <timeless> and given that css3 is split by modules and not by levels
# [11:50] <timeless> it doesn't seem like a good choice of words
# [11:51] <anne> they are modules of CSS Level 3
# [11:51] <timeless> right
# [11:51] <anne> so CSS is still leveled
# [11:51] <timeless> but the selectors spec talked about a thing which has a given level
# [11:51] <anne> it's just that CSS is defined in modules
# [11:51] <timeless> but that's the wrong granularity
# [11:51] <anne> Selectors has levels as well
# [11:51] <timeless> if i only have css level2 but have 1 css level3 module
# [11:52] <anne> but it's not part of CSS per se
# [11:52] <timeless> selectors wants me to honor that one css level3 module
# [11:52] <timeless> even though i don't "have css level2"
# [11:52] <timeless> err
# [11:52] <timeless> even though i don't "have css level3"
# [11:52] * timeless nods
# [11:52] <timeless> i understand that selectors is a distinct spec, and in theory could be implemented w/o a css engine
# [11:53] <anne> it's a bit confusing though, especially as naming is not consistent and the shortname of Selectors is css3-selectors, etc.
# [11:53] <timeless> and that there might be a selectors api
# [11:53] <timeless> oh wow
# [11:53] <timeless> ok, that part i didn't know
# [11:53] <timeless> as i said, i think i'll crawl back to my safer exploding minefield
# [11:54] * timeless tries to find the suggestion for not using css in opera
# [11:55] <timeless> hrm, www.wpost.com didn't redirect me to www.washingtonpost.com
# [11:55] * timeless is kinda surprised
# [11:56] <timeless> ok, um
# [11:56] <timeless> "help"
# [11:56] <timeless> i did view>styles>manage modes
# [11:56] <timeless> default mode: user mode
# [11:56] <timeless> and then i visited www.wpost.com
# [11:57] <timeless> oh, it doesn't affect my open tabs
# [11:58] <timeless> eww
# [11:58] <timeless> ann, try using user mode, visit wpost.com
# [11:59] <timeless> in the search box, enter: hudson airplane
# [11:59] <timeless> make sure it's searching washingtonpost and not the web
# [11:59] <timeless> then hit enter
# [11:59] <timeless> for a while i saw this strange ascii art (mostly x's)
# [12:01] <timeless> in the end, i turned off user mode
# [12:01] <timeless> i have "hudson airplane", today, nation, source:the washington post
# [12:01] <timeless> it says there's "1 results"
# [12:01] <timeless> but i can't see it
# [12:02] * timeless wonders if this feature requires ie
# [12:04] <timeless> maybe it requires w95 :(
# [12:05] * timeless gives up
# [12:05] <timeless> anyway, have a nice day all
# [12:07] <anne> you too :)
# [12:22] <arve> timeless: classic installer, btw?
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# [13:10] <Lachy> timeless, do you want me to list you in the selectors api acknowledgements as "timeless", or your real name?
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# [14:10] <anne> hmm, Access-Control-Allow-Credentials should prolly have taken the value "allow" rather than "true" because now people assume "false" has some special meaning
# [15:07] <ArtB> anne, thanks for the CORS status!
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# [15:09] <ArtB> re ACTION-192 - the Issue #21 it referred to was from the WAF issue DB. WAF Issue #21 was closed and a new Issue for WebApps was created - #11. But #11 was closed last October thus I just closed Action #192. Just wanted you to know :)
# [15:10] <anne> ah, I didn't think of that possibility, thanks!
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# Session Close: Tue Feb 10 00:00:00 2009

The end :)