/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2009-03-04 / end

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  79. # [13:43] * Marcos looks at his en-gb keyboard and wonders where the hell the pound sign be at!
  80. # [13:46] <arve> Shift-3?
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  87. # [16:01] <smaug> shepazu: any idea who added the gray-background text about mutation events to dom 3 events?
  88. # [16:01] <smaug> and why?
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  102. # [20:25] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-webapps-irc
  103. # [20:25] <chaals> evening all
  104. # [20:26] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  105. # [20:26] * chaals changes topic to '1930Z DOM3Events - Web Applications WG (logged at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
  106. # [20:28] <chaals> zakim, this will be dom
  107. # [20:28] <Zakim> ok, chaals; I see IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
  108. # [20:32] <Zakim> IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM has now started
  109. # [20:32] <Zakim> +Carmelo
  110. # [20:33] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  111. # [20:33] <chaals> zakim, ipcaller is me
  112. # [20:33] <Zakim> +chaals; got it
  113. # [20:34] <chaals> zakim, start meeting
  114. # [20:34] <Zakim> I don't understand 'start meeting', chaals
  115. # [20:34] <shepazu> trackbot, start telcon
  116. # [20:34] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  117. # [20:34] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  118. # [20:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  119. # [20:34] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAPP
  120. # [20:34] <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
  121. # [20:34] <trackbot> Date: 04 March 2009
  122. # [20:34] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
  123. # [20:34] <shepazu> Zakim, this will be DOM3
  124. # [20:34] <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu
  125. # [20:34] <Zakim> ok, shepazu, I see IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM already started
  126. # [20:34] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  127. # [20:34] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  128. # [20:35] <shepazu> Zakim, who is here?
  129. # [20:35] <Zakim> On the phone I see Carmelo, chaals, Shepazu
  130. # [20:35] <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, shepazu, Marcos, tlr, aroben, heycam, smaug, ArtB, Lachy, gsnedders, gavin, hober, Hixie, phenny, trackbot, maxf, krijnh, chaals, inimino, Dashiva, hendry,
  131. # [20:35] <Zakim> ... timelyx
  132. # [20:36] <chaals> agenda+ http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/1
  133. # [20:36] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  134. # [20:36] <chaals> agenda+ http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/6
  135. # [20:36] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  136. # [20:36] <Zakim> +??P13
  137. # [20:36] <chaals> agenda+ http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/312
  138. # [20:36] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  139. # [20:36] <smaug> Zakim, ??P13 is me
  140. # [20:36] <Zakim> +smaug; got it
  141. # [20:37] <chaals> agenda+ http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/39 and http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/18
  142. # [20:37] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  143. # [20:38] <chaals> agenda+ Publishing timeline?
  144. # [20:38] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
  145. # [20:38] * Joins: Carmelo (81063b4a@128.30.52.43)
  146. # [20:39] <chaals> scribe: chaals
  147. # [20:39] <chaals> Scribe: chaals
  148. # [20:39] <chaals> Chair: Chaals
  149. # [20:40] <chaals> Present: Chaals, Shepazu, Smaug, Carmelo
  150. # [20:40] <chaals> zakim, take up next agendum
  151. # [20:40] <Zakim> agendum 1. "http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/1" taken up [from chaals]
  152. # [20:40] <chaals> Topic: Action item review
  153. # [20:41] <chaals> Find All Open Issues For DOM3 Events and Update the Specification
  154. # [20:41] <chaals> DS: Not yet done. Would be good to start. Hold over until next week.
  155. # [20:42] <chaals> zakim, take up next agendum
  156. # [20:42] <Zakim> agendum 2. "http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/6" taken up [from chaals]
  157. # [20:42] <chaals> Add a diagram about wheel axes etc
  158. # [20:42] <chaals> DS: Not so important. Does look more fun though...
  159. # [20:42] <chaals> ... in two weeks
  160. # [20:43] <chaals> ... Is not completely silly because we can use it as a reference for people to look at.
  161. # [20:43] <chaals> CMN: Agree. Illustrations and simple examples are actually important.
  162. # [20:43] <chaals> zakim, take up next agendum
  163. # [20:43] <Zakim> agendum 3. "http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/312" taken up [from chaals]
  164. # [20:44] <shepazu> agenda+ mailing list?
  165. # [20:44] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
  166. # [20:44] <chaals> Propose some wording to resolve ISSUE-44 by saying that it depends on the language where the event goes
  167. # [20:44] <chaals> DS: Have a local copy of this. Says what we said last week.
  168. # [20:44] <chaals> CM: Couldn't find you last week
  169. # [20:44] <chaals> CMN: Odd, we were here...
  170. # [20:45] <chaals> DS: Could send that quickly.
  171. # [20:46] <chaals> ... basically it says what we said last week.
  172. # [20:46] * chaals wonders why it took so long to send it then:P
  173. # [20:47] <chaals> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/16 and http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/17 - Carmelo to look at latest draft, and start writing tests...
  174. # [20:48] <chaals> CMN: Suggest we hold off action 17 until we have a latest draft - depends on upcoming agenda item...
  175. # [20:48] <chaals> ... have you started writing tests?
  176. # [20:49] <chaals> CM: Yeah, and submitted some.
  177. # [20:49] <chaals> DS: Haven't looked at them yet though.
  178. # [20:49] <chaals> CMN: let's change the action item to "write more tests!"
  179. # [20:49] <chaals> DS: ISSUE-28 doesn't seem like it should be on DOM3 Events. Would expect it to be on CORS
  180. # [20:50] <chaals> RESOLUTION: Yep, let's move ISSUE-28 to CORS
  181. # [20:50] <chaals> DS: Have a suspicion that not all the issues we have are listed in tracker.
  182. # [20:51] <chaals> DS: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/27 ISSUE-27 also seems to belong to CORS
  183. # [20:51] <chaals> RESOLUTION: Move ISSUE-27 to CORS
  184. # [20:51] <chaals> [hidden]
  185. # [20:52] <chaals> DS: Is there anything we can do in the spec that willhave an effect on Firefox?
  186. # [20:52] <chaals> OP: I won't change anything this late
  187. # [20:53] <chaals> CMN: We won't change Opera 10 this late either.
  188. # [20:53] * ArtB oh yuck - the Forgetting All About RAISED issues problem again :-(. Seems like they should all be moved to OPEN ...
  189. # [20:53] <chaals> DS: So looks like Keyboard stuff won't get sorted until next releases
  190. # [20:53] <chaals> OP: Indeed...
  191. # [20:53] <chaals> DS: Tempted to just change the Keyboard model completely to avoid breaking web pages (as opposed to just tweaking it a bit)
  192. # [20:54] <chaals> ... problem with documenting existing behaviour (which is important) is that when all behaviour is idiosyncratic, ...
  193. # [20:55] <chaals> ... If Firefox changes things that they thought was more sensible, they break pages. But I guess people know that Opera and Firefox are different, and so
  194. # [20:55] <chaals> ... I guess this is applicable to keyboard
  195. # [20:55] <chaals> [scribe: This is really what he said]
  196. # [20:55] <chaals> ... so to work across browsers I would do something not much better than sniffing to see what capabilities are in the browser and if it didn't have them I would switch to do different behaviours on different things.
  197. # [20:56] <chaals> ... with the load event I punted to the individual language. Fortunately it is clearly defined in SVG and has been for a while. For HTML I am happy tohave Hixie solve the problem but I am not sure it is a solvable problem. No matter what you do you will break content. I would like to have language that says :this is what you should do. But languages may define other things"
  198. # [20:57] <chaals> CMN: That is what I thought you were going to do.
  199. # [20:57] <chaals> DS: No, I just left it up to individual languages.
  200. # [20:57] <chaals> CMN: I would be pleased if you did define some default behaviour, then noted things may be different.
  201. # [20:58] <chaals> zakim, take up next agendum
  202. # [20:58] <Zakim> agendum 4. "http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/39 and http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/18" taken up [from chaals]
  203. # [20:58] <chaals> Topic: Mutation events
  204. # [20:59] <chaals> DS: Anyone ahve an opinion about the previous topic?
  205. # [20:59] <chaals> OP: I would like to define our behaviour, of course :)
  206. # [21:01] <chaals> DS: I wonder if someone could be smart, and if people are sniffing on browser version they get something that says "if you don't have method X, do some things that are unrelated to X" (e.g. people test on filters to see if things are IE, then do something else).
  207. # [21:02] <chaals> CMN: Yes, but not always.
  208. # [21:04] <chaals> CMN: I understood Doug would say it is possible for languages to define what they want for load, and would note what HTML does, but say langauges should generally, and User Agents should expect generally something like SVG.
  209. # [21:04] <chaals> ... which I believe would effectively be defining what you are already doing...
  210. # [21:04] <chaals> OP: Does SVG define Load or SVGLoad?
  211. # [21:05] <chaals> DS: Defines the SVGLoad event, but then says "oh, you can also use the load event, with the same behaviour"
  212. # [21:05] <chaals> OP: Are there SVG1.1 errata?
  213. # [21:05] <chaals> ... I think it was changed a bit...
  214. # [21:06] <chaals> ACTION: schepers to research what SVG defines for load.
  215. # [21:06] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  216. # [21:06] * RRSAgent records action 1
  217. # [21:06] <trackbot> Created ACTION-318 - Research what SVG defines for load. [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-03-11].
  218. # [21:06] <chaals> OP: 1.1 doesn't say much about load event. Mentions SVGload, triggered when some element has been fully parsed. This is quite different.
  219. # [21:07] <chaals> ... but SVG has the same attribute name (different event but same attribute).
  220. # [21:07] <chaals> DS: Believe we defined it more clearly in SVG 1.2 but not convinced that we got it right.
  221. # [21:08] <chaals> OP: SVGload isn't related to the document, but to elements
  222. # [21:08] <chaals> DS: Wouldn't necessarily define it the way SVG defines it. Would define its default in a way that makes sense, and talk about the differences that exist between HTML and SVG
  223. # [21:09] <chaals> ... SVG tiny 1.2 talks more about progress load event.
  224. # [21:10] <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/interact.html#LoadEvent
  225. # [21:10] <chaals> DS: SVGload is deprecated and only for backwards compatibility. For load, the event is triggered when the element and dependent resources are loaded (and scripts are interpreted)...
  226. # [21:12] <chaals> RESOLUTION: Doug, STFU!
  227. # [21:12] <chaals> s/RESOLUTION: Doug, STFU!//
  228. # [21:13] <chaals> DS: Seems like SVG isn't the right model to copy either
  229. # [21:13] <chaals> RESOLUTION: Extend ACTION-312 by a week.
  230. # [21:13] <chaals> Topic: Mailing list
  231. # [21:14] <chaals> DS: Going through the mailing list to find stuff to do with D3E is really tedious and onerous
  232. # [21:14] * chaals thinks "that's why they pay you so little"
  233. # [21:14] <chaals> ... we constantly talk about events, but very often it is not relevant to DOM 3 Events - keywords come up in other contexts too. Was wondering if it would be appropriate to make a new mailing list.
  234. # [21:14] <chaals> CM: Probably a good idea
  235. # [21:15] <chaals> OP: There is an old DOM mailing list
  236. # [21:15] <chaals> CM: I have had the same issues
  237. # [21:15] <chaals> CMN: Is old DOM mailing list public?
  238. # [21:15] <chaals> CM: Think so...
  239. # [21:16] <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/
  240. # [21:16] <chaals> OP: There is a problem that people only check webapps list
  241. # [21:16] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  242. # [21:17] <chaals> CMN: So what if we move to www-dom, and send a reminder every month to webapps that DOM 3 stuff is on www-dom? (for developers who don't look at other lists much)
  243. # [21:17] <chaals> ... and cc minutes of DOM 3 stuff (with another reminder)
  244. # [21:18] <chaals> DS: how about Bcc minutes to public-webapps
  245. # [21:18] <chaals> CMN: Better to send to webapps, with ReplyTo to www-dom
  246. # [21:19] <chaals> DS: We could try that for now. I imagine we will hear complaining... There is some traffic already ...
  247. # [21:21] <chaals> Proposed RESOLUTION: We move to www-dom, and chaals will send reminders every month, plus cc minutes to public-webapps with reply-to set for www-dom
  248. # [21:21] <chaals> s/minutes/minutes and meeting notice/
  249. # [21:21] <chaals> RESOLUTION: We move to www-dom, and chaals will send reminders every month, plus cc minutes and meeting notices to public-webapps with reply-to set for www-dom
  250. # [21:23] <chaals> Topic: Mutation events and http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/39 and http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/18
  251. # [21:24] <chaals> DS: Didn;t get a chance to do as much as I would like. There are two different camps...
  252. # [21:25] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  253. # [21:25] <chaals> ... The people who say mutation events are awesome, love them, have implemented them in JS or something...
  254. # [21:25] <chaals> CMN: I believe that the ARIA folks, or at least Rich Schwerdtfeger, is in that camp
  255. # [21:26] <chaals> DS: ...and then there are the browser implementors
  256. # [21:26] <chaals> OP: Was talking with our accessibility guy today about this and seems that they only need the DOMattrmodified event. Which is not one of the evil ones.
  257. # [21:27] <chaals> ... don't understand the reason for that. But ...
  258. # [21:27] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  259. # [21:27] <chaals> ... wonder if they could ahve ARIAattrmodified or something. There is some accessibility software that will change attributes on the page and then check what has changed.
  260. # [21:27] <chaals> ... they are using domattrmodified for that.
  261. # [21:28] <chaals> DS: I think they also need to know when the text changed as well
  262. # [21:28] <chaals> ... after a complex change of text.
  263. # [21:28] <chaals> OP: Why would that be?
  264. # [21:29] <chaals> CMN: Because assistive technologies need to know when things have changed.
  265. # [21:29] <chaals> OP: This is not about implementation, it is about what web developers can use. The internal implementation can use something else.
  266. # [21:30] <chaals> DS: Maybe we should comment during ARIA last call that they are relying on a relatively costly mutation event and ask if they can define something more targeted like ARIAattrmodified
  267. # [21:30] <chaals> ... suspect they will not be comfortable doing that, but we could work with them to define that.
  268. # [21:30] <chaals> OP: yeah...
  269. # [21:30] <chaals> DS: That would be relatively trivial, and much lower cost than the generic one.
  270. # [21:31] <chaals> CMN: At the very least, it opens a dialogue that we probably need to have.
  271. # [21:31] <chaals> DS: Mozilla has stated that they will not implement [I forget which]
  272. # [21:32] <chaals> OP: Domnoderemoved, probably. I know of no reason not to implement it, given that we implemented another one, although it could be better to remove both. I am worried about back compatibility because some web pages do use these things.
  273. # [21:33] <chaals> DS: They only use the ones that are implemented.
  274. # [21:33] <chaals> OP: Only gecko implemented DOMattrmodified event, doesn't implement DOMnoderemovedfrom/insertedtoDocument
  275. # [21:33] <chaals> DS: Think we should open topic of removing or reworking them.
  276. # [21:34] <chaals> ... there are script librarians who say they need them, but they cannot be relying on them because they are not implemented.
  277. # [21:34] <chaals> DS: First step is to find out what is implemented.
  278. # [21:34] <chaals> OP: When Jonas was proposing removing/changing things, it was only evil things.
  279. # [21:36] <chaals> DS: If nobody is going to implement something, I am not going to put it in the spec. What we could do is make the mutation events spec, and script libraries could conform to them - a copy/paste of the mutation events from DOM3 events. D3E could go with a cleaner model, then people would not have to rely on script libraries. Nobody is relying on any of this working in browsers, where it oesn't.
  280. # [21:36] <chaals> OP: Could document what I found implemented...
  281. # [21:36] <chaals> ... would be great if someone from Opera could comment on this.
  282. # [21:36] * Quits: hober (ted@206.212.254.2) (Connection reset by peer)
  283. # [21:37] <chaals> ACTION: Olli to publish what he has found about mutation event implementation
  284. # [21:37] * RRSAgent records action 2
  285. # [21:37] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  286. # [21:37] <trackbot> Created ACTION-319 - Publish what he has found about mutation event implementation [on Olli Pettay - due 2009-03-11].
  287. # [21:37] <chaals> ACTION: Chaals to get someone at Opera who understands event implementation to comment on this issue
  288. # [21:37] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  289. # [21:37] * RRSAgent records action 3
  290. # [21:37] <trackbot> Created ACTION-320 - Get someone at Opera who understands event implementation to comment on this issue [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2009-03-11].
  291. # [21:38] <chaals> Topic: Publishing Schedule
  292. # [21:39] <chaals> CMN: Latest formal spec is 2007. We should probably publish something soon.
  293. # [21:40] <chaals> DS: Can have a new draft proposal in two weeks
  294. # [21:41] <chaals> ACTION: schepers to provide new draft ready to publish as Official draft on /TR, due in 2 weeks
  295. # [21:41] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  296. # [21:41] * RRSAgent records action 4
  297. # [21:41] <trackbot> Created ACTION-321 - Provide new draft ready to publish as Official draft on /TR, due in 2 weeks [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-03-11].
  298. # [21:42] <chaals> ACTION: chaals to notify public-webapps that discussion has shifted to www-dom
  299. # [21:42] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  300. # [21:42] * RRSAgent records action 5
  301. # [21:42] <trackbot> Created ACTION-322 - Notify public-webapps that discussion has shifted to www-dom [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2009-03-11].
  302. # [21:43] <chaals> CMN: Would be useful to give a couple of days before discussing things on www-dom. (But I will send minutes there already)
  303. # [21:44] <Zakim> -smaug
  304. # [21:44] <smaug> oops
  305. # [21:44] <chaals> Meeting Adjourned
  306. # [21:44] <Zakim> -Carmelo
  307. # [21:44] * chaals waves good evening to smaug/carmelo
  308. # [21:45] <chaals> rrsagent, make log public
  309. # [21:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, chaals
  310. # [21:45] <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
  311. # [21:45] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/04-webapps-minutes.html chaals
  312. # [21:51] <chaals> zakim, bye
  313. # [21:51] <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees were Carmelo, chaals, Shepazu, smaug
  314. # [21:51] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  315. # [21:51] <chaals> rrsaagent, bye
  316. # [21:52] <chaals> shepazu, as far as I can tell the only impact of workers on accessibility is that things happen in a background thread - you still get the change.
  317. # [21:52] <smaug> shepazu: how do I add related mails to an issue?
  318. # [21:53] <chaals> so the only question is whether there is an event to say that the thread has finished.
  319. # [21:53] * smaug uses 'notes' area
  320. # [21:53] <chaals> smaug, you name it - ISSUE-XXX (where XXX is some number)
  321. # [21:53] <chaals> oh, that's if you hadn't sent it yet
  322. # [21:53] <smaug> yeah, old mail
  323. # [21:53] <smaug> sent 5 months ago
  324. # [21:56] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  325. # [21:59] * Joins: hober (ted@206.212.254.2)
  326. # [21:59] <chaals> yeah, adding it to notes is about the best
  327. # [22:14] * Quits: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr)
  328. # [22:21] * Quits: ArtB (d0309a43@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
  329. # [22:34] * Quits: Carmelo (81063b4a@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  330. # [22:35] * Quits: heycam (cam@124.168.82.206) (Quit: bye)
  331. # [23:40] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  332. # [23:43] * Joins: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84)
  333. # [23:52] * Joins: annevk (opera@114.48.30.0)
  334. # Session Close: Thu Mar 05 00:00:01 2009

The end :)