/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2009-03-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Mar 11 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  44. # [15:04] <Marcos> I'm changing all file names in the spec to be case sensitive.
  45. # [15:05] <Marcos> the spec being P&C
  46. # [15:05] <Marcos> and also in Dig Sigs
  47. # [15:16] * Marcos sends email proposal to list
  48. # [15:16] * Marcos goes changes spec
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  51. # [15:41] <annevk> smaug, is the idea to evaluate the feasibility of removing support for the events?
  52. # [15:41] * annevk would be cool with that
  53. # [15:42] <smaug> mutation events?
  54. # [15:42] <smaug> no
  55. # [15:42] <annevk> oh
  56. # [15:42] <smaug> just to give people hint how much they affect to performance
  57. # [15:43] <smaug> annevk: btw, chaals said that Opera doesn't want to change DOMNodeRemoved/DOMNodeRemoveFromDocument
  58. # [15:45] <smaug> ...that is related to the discussion in Webapps wg mailing list last summer
  59. # [15:47] <annevk> he did?
  60. # [15:48] <annevk> (I believe you, just don't know why he'd say that.)
  61. # [15:49] <smaug> annevk: "chaals> roughly, we don't see that changing them is a great idea. We implemented them ages ago, and while they imply a performance hit, they do something that seems useful"
  62. # [15:50] <smaug> at least I interpret that so that Opera doesn't want to change, well, anything in mutation events
  63. # [15:51] <smaug> not that opera implements mutation fully or anything ;)
  64. # [15:51] <smaug> mutation events fully
  65. # [15:51] <annevk> hmm, I don't really like it when chaals says things like that
  66. # [15:52] <annevk> he might be right though :)
  67. # [15:53] <annevk> we're generally ok with removing useless features I think to reduce footprint
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  73. # [18:00] <gsnedders> Marcos: ping
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  76. # [18:39] <shepazu> gsnedders: stop calling me Marcos, and stop pinging me!
  77. # [18:39] <gsnedders> :P
  78. # [18:39] <shepazu> :D
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  81. # [19:08] <ArtB> shepazu, yt?
  82. # [19:09] <shepazu> ArtB: yeah
  83. # [19:09] <shepazu> eating a late lunch
  84. # [19:10] <ArtB> where are the D3E calls held - in this channel?
  85. # [19:11] <ArtB> where is the latest ED of the D3E spec - http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html ?
  86. # [19:21] <shepazu> ArtB: yeah, but I've not yet updated i
  87. # [19:22] <shepazu> it
  88. # [19:25] * ArtB changes topic to 'DOM3Events call; March 11 @ 14:30 Boston; PIN = 3661#; Agenda = http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0004.html'
  89. # [19:32] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  90. # [19:33] <ArtB> shepazu, what is the name of this call?
  91. # [19:33] <shepazu> DOM3
  92. # [19:33] <ArtB> zakim, this is dom3
  93. # [19:33] <Zakim> ArtB, I see IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be dom3".
  94. # [19:33] <shepazu> trackbot, start telcon
  95. # [19:33] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  96. # [19:33] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  97. # [19:33] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-irc
  98. # [19:33] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  99. # [19:33] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  100. # [19:33] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAPP
  101. # [19:33] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
  102. # [19:33] <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
  103. # [19:33] <trackbot> Date: 11 March 2009
  104. # [19:33] <shepazu> zakim, this is dom3
  105. # [19:33] <Zakim> shepazu, I see IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be dom3".
  106. # [19:33] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log public
  107. # [19:33] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, ArtB
  108. # [19:34] * shepazu Zakim, call shepazu
  109. # [19:34] * Zakim sorry, shepazu, I don't know what conference this is
  110. # [19:34] <ArtB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0004.html
  111. # [19:34] <shepazu> Zakim, his will be dom3
  112. # [19:34] <Zakim> I don't understand 'his will be dom3', shepazu
  113. # [19:34] <shepazu> Zakim, this will be dom3
  114. # [19:34] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; I see IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM scheduled to start now
  115. # [19:34] <shepazu> sigh
  116. # [19:34] * shepazu Zakim, call shepazu
  117. # [19:34] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  118. # [19:34] <Zakim> IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM has now started
  119. # [19:34] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  120. # [19:35] <shepazu> ISSUE-44?
  121. # [19:35] * trackbot getting information on ISSUE-44
  122. # [19:35] <trackbot> ISSUE-44 -- Should DOM3 Events cover the interaction of events and the Window object? -- RAISED
  123. # [19:35] <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/44
  124. # [19:35] <smaug> hmm, "passcode not valid"
  125. # [19:36] <ArtB> yeah, me too
  126. # [19:36] <shepazu> Zakim, code?
  127. # [19:36] <Zakim> the conference code is 3663 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), shepazu
  128. # [19:36] <ArtB> agenda says "3661#"
  129. # [19:36] <smaug> haa
  130. # [19:36] <Zakim> +Art_Barstow
  131. # [19:36] * ArtB changes topic to 'DOM3Events call; March 11 @ 14:30 Boston; PIN = 3663#; Agenda = http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0004.html'
  132. # [19:36] * Quits: sicking (chatzilla@63.245.220.241) (Client exited)
  133. # [19:37] <Zakim> +??P6
  134. # [19:37] <smaug> Zakim, ??P6 is me
  135. # [19:37] <Zakim> +smaug; got it
  136. # [19:38] <ArtB> Chair: Art
  137. # [19:38] <ArtB> Scribe: Art
  138. # [19:38] <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
  139. # [19:38] <ArtB> Present: Art, Doug, Olli
  140. # [19:40] <ArtB> Regrets: Charles
  141. # [19:41] <ArtB> Topic: Agenda Review
  142. # [19:41] <ArtB> AB: agenda is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0004.html
  143. # [19:42] <ArtB> AB: do other people typically join this call?
  144. # [19:42] <ArtB> DS: Travis from Microsoft used to join
  145. # [19:42] <ArtB> ... but we don't have to wait for him to start the meeting
  146. # [19:43] <ArtB> AB: Charles created this agenda; mostly Actions, Issues and Pub plans
  147. # [19:43] <ArtB> ... any change requests?
  148. # [19:43] <ArtB> [ None ]
  149. # [19:43] <ArtB> Topic: confirm last week's minutes
  150. # [19:44] <ArtB> AB: any objections to confirming last week's minutes?
  151. # [19:44] <ArtB> ... <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/att-0003/D3E-webapps-090303.html>
  152. # [19:44] <ArtB> [ No Objections ]
  153. # [19:44] <ArtB> Topic: Action item review - Due this week
  154. # [19:45] <ArtB> AB: All of the D3E Issues and Actions are available at:
  155. # [19:45] <ArtB> ... http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
  156. # [19:45] <ArtB> ... I noticed 5-6 of the issues are in the RAISED state
  157. # [19:45] <ArtB> ... Briefly, what process is used to move an Issue from Raised to Open?
  158. # [19:46] <ArtB> ... Just curious (we don't use RAISED state in Widgets)
  159. # [19:46] <ArtB> DS: raised means the issue is recorded
  160. # [19:46] <ArtB> ... it is changed to Open when the group agrees to take it on
  161. # [19:47] <ArtB> ... then we issue Actions against the Open Issue
  162. # [19:48] <ArtB> ... Pending Review means the issue is still open and pending the actions related to it are closed
  163. # [19:48] <ArtB> Topic: ACTION-1 - Find All Open Issues For DOM3 Events and Update the Specification - schepers
  164. # [19:48] <ArtB> AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/1
  165. # [19:48] <ArtB> DS: that was recorded a long time ago to test Tracker
  166. # [19:48] <ArtB> ... I should close just close it
  167. # [19:49] <ArtB> ... I will change the Due Date to the 18th
  168. # [19:49] <ArtB> ... I haven't uploaded my changes yet
  169. # [19:49] <ArtB> AB: I noticed the latest ED was quite old
  170. # [19:49] <ArtB> DS: yes; I'm still getting back to it
  171. # [19:50] <ArtB> ... I will check in a new version before the next call (Mar 18)
  172. # [19:50] <ArtB> Topic: ACTION 312 - Propose langauge to resolve ISSUE-44 - schepers
  173. # [19:50] <ArtB> AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/312
  174. # [19:50] <ArtB> DS: I have some wording in my draft
  175. # [19:50] <ArtB> ... I'll complete this action when I make my upload next week
  176. # [19:51] <ArtB> ... I will define a default action for the load event
  177. # [19:51] <ArtB> OP: default action?
  178. # [19:51] <ArtB> DS: no, sorry, I meant default behavior
  179. # [19:52] <ArtB> ... and let the individual specs override how the load event works
  180. # [19:52] <ArtB> ... i.e. how it is dispatched
  181. # [19:52] <ArtB> ... and what its target is
  182. # [19:52] <ArtB> OP: yes, I think you are correct about the target
  183. # [19:52] <ArtB> DS: we may have to talk more about the Window
  184. # [19:53] <ArtB> ... I'll have to redo the chart to include Window
  185. # [19:53] <ArtB> OP: Window is the parent node above the document
  186. # [19:53] <ArtB> DS: so bubble goes up to window?
  187. # [19:54] <ArtB> OP: yes
  188. # [19:54] <ArtB> ... check the mail around ISSUE #44
  189. # [19:55] <ArtB> ... it is dispatched to Window but its target is Document
  190. # [19:55] <ArtB> DS: need to be careful about HTML specific behavior
  191. # [19:55] <ArtB> ... don't want SVG and HTML doing diff things
  192. # [19:56] <smaug> all the other events except load propagates from document to window
  193. # [19:57] <shepazu> Action: shepazu to coordinate with SVG WG about 'window', to add behavior like HTML's
  194. # [19:57] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  195. # [19:57] * RRSAgent records action 1
  196. # [19:57] <trackbot> Created ACTION-323 - Coordinate with SVG WG about 'window', to add behavior like HTML's [on Doug Schepers - due 2009-03-18].
  197. # [19:57] <ArtB> DS: if we put this in D3E it would get folded into SVG
  198. # [19:57] <ArtB> OP: we can talk about default view and not Window
  199. # [19:58] <shepazu> where window == defaultView
  200. # [19:58] <ArtB> Topic: ACTION 318 - Research what SVG does for load - schepers
  201. # [19:58] <ArtB> AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/318
  202. # [19:59] <ArtB> DS: this is related to our previous discussion
  203. # [19:59] <ArtB> AB: so what do we do with this then?
  204. # [19:59] <ArtB> DS: leave it open
  205. # [20:00] <ArtB> Topic: ACTION 319 - Publish your findings about mutation event implementation - Olli
  206. # [20:00] <smaug> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html
  207. # [20:00] <ArtB> AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/319
  208. # [20:00] <ArtB> OP: I sent some emails to the list today
  209. # [20:00] <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html
  210. # [20:01] <ArtB> OP: no one supports everything
  211. # [20:01] <ArtB> ... Whenever mutation listeners are used, the relevant DOM operations slowdown a lot in all browser engines
  212. # [20:02] <ArtB> ... I've been talking to the A11Y people
  213. # [20:02] <ArtB> s/A11Y people/ARIA people/
  214. # [20:03] <smaug> "chaals> roughly, we don't see that changing them is a great idea. We implemented them ages ago, and while they imply a performance hit, they do something that seems useful"
  215. # [20:03] <ArtB> AB: how do we reflect Chaals' comments?
  216. # [20:04] <ArtB> DS: one way is mutation events as defined in DOM2
  217. # [20:04] <ArtB> ... i.e. keep them as they exist
  218. # [20:04] <ArtB> ... could find intersection of the browser and throw away others
  219. # [20:04] <ArtB> ... could define new model
  220. # [20:05] <ArtB> ... would like to have a more performant model
  221. # [20:05] <ArtB> ... and define a mapping from the new model to the existing definition
  222. # [20:06] <ArtB> ... and deprecate those that aren't implemented by all of the browsers
  223. # [20:06] <ArtB> OP: Jonas made a proposal last summer
  224. # [20:07] <ArtB> AB: do you have a pointer to that proposal?
  225. # [20:07] <smaug> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0146.html
  226. # [20:08] <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0174.html
  227. # [20:09] <ArtB> AB: so only 3 of the 7 mutation events are implemented by these three browsers?
  228. # [20:09] <ArtB> OP: yes, that's the case
  229. # [20:09] <ArtB> ... the slow down is amazing; used a deep tree
  230. # [20:10] <ArtB> DS: the slowdown is actually a big usability issue particularly in accessibility use cases
  231. # [20:10] <ArtB> ... because there may not be an indication it is occuring
  232. # [20:10] <ArtB> ... may need a dedicated ARIA event
  233. # [20:11] <ArtB> OP: yes; and some web apps may decide not use these events if for example it was doing some location stuff
  234. # [20:11] <smaug> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0010.html
  235. # [20:12] <smaug> OP: yes; and some web apps may decide not use these events because it would slow down performance also for people who don't use a11y stuff
  236. # [20:13] <ArtB> OP: the email from Boris indicates the .style change also cause slowdowns
  237. # [20:14] <ArtB> AB: I think Olli completed this action right?
  238. # [20:14] <ArtB> OP: yes I've already closed
  239. # [20:15] <ArtB> Topic: ACTION 320 - Talk to people at Opera about mutation events - chaals
  240. # [20:15] <ArtB> AB: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/320
  241. # [20:15] <ArtB> AB: should we skip this today?
  242. # [20:15] <ArtB> Topic: ISSUE-44 (related to actions 312 and 318 above)
  243. # [20:15] <ArtB> AB: Issue is: What should D3E say about the window object and where events are fired...
  244. # [20:15] <ArtB> ... http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/4
  245. # [20:16] <ArtB> DS: we've already talked about this
  246. # [20:16] <ArtB> AB: this in the RAISED state; is that OK?
  247. # [20:16] <ArtB> DS: yes
  248. # [20:16] <ArtB> AB: anything else on Issue #44?
  249. # [20:17] <ArtB> [ No ]
  250. # [20:17] <ArtB> Topic: ISSUE-39 (related to action 320 above)
  251. # [20:17] <ArtB> AB: issue is: Consider changing ordering/firing of mutation events?
  252. # [20:17] <ArtB> ... http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/39
  253. # [20:17] <ArtB> AB: any discussion on this issue?
  254. # [20:18] <ArtB> DS: there are no related actions
  255. # [20:18] <ArtB> ... Olli, what are your thoughts?
  256. # [20:18] <ArtB> OP: I'd like to get comments from Opera
  257. # [20:18] <ArtB> ... I think Jonas wants to change it
  258. # [20:18] <ArtB> ... anyone else?
  259. # [20:19] <ArtB> DS: I think Maciej
  260. # [20:19] <ArtB> OP: it's bad for implementations but OK for content authors
  261. # [20:19] <ArtB> DS: but if perf is bad then that's bad for the authors too
  262. # [20:19] <ArtB> OP: not clear when the events should be fired
  263. # [20:20] <ArtB> AB: since Opera hasn't addressed Action #320, seems like we should defer discussion until next week
  264. # [20:20] <ArtB> DS: agree
  265. # [20:21] <ArtB> Topic: Publication schedule
  266. # [20:22] <ArtB> OP: back to mutation events; chaper 1.7.7 ...
  267. # [20:22] <ArtB> ... the grey/gray block text
  268. # [20:22] <ArtB> ... why was that added?
  269. # [20:23] <ArtB> ... http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html?rev=1.20&content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859-1#events-Events-eventgroupings-mutationevents
  270. # [20:23] <ArtB> DS: this was added for performance reasons
  271. # [20:23] <ArtB> ... in SVG, create element is used to make trees in the DOM but not in the document
  272. # [20:24] <ArtB> ... mutation events aren't fired for things that are not in the document
  273. # [20:24] <ArtB> OP: I don't understand why
  274. # [20:24] <ArtB> s/Topic: Publication schedule//
  275. # [20:27] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  276. # [20:27] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
  277. # [20:27] <shepazu> I propose that we state explicitly in the spec that if there is no event listener registered, and if the event does not have a default handler, then the implementation may choose not to fire an event for that action (which is what browsers do)
  278. # [20:28] <ArtB> AB: any comments on Doug's proposal?
  279. # [20:29] <ArtB> OP: browsers do that for mutuation events
  280. # [20:29] <ArtB> ... other events don't slow things down as much
  281. # [20:29] <ArtB> Topic: Publication schedule
  282. # [20:29] <ArtB> AB: the question is: Are we still expecting to have a new Editor's draft on 2009-03-18?
  283. # [20:30] <ArtB> DS: yes, that is still the plan
  284. # [20:30] <ArtB> ... don't expect it to be ready to publish by then
  285. # [20:30] <ArtB> ... This is Action #321 http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/321
  286. # [20:30] <ArtB> AB: keep it open?
  287. # [20:30] <ArtB> DS: yes
  288. # [20:31] <ArtB> AB: so that would be another WD, right?
  289. # [20:31] <ArtB> DS: yes
  290. # [20:31] <ArtB> AB: any discussion on the LCWD?
  291. # [20:31] <ArtB> DS: no we haven't discussed that yet; one step at a time
  292. # [20:32] <ArtB> OP: events are hard; must get it right and they are core to so many other specs
  293. # [20:32] <ArtB> Topic: Other overdue action items?
  294. # [20:32] <ArtB> AB: DOM3E Issues and Actions http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
  295. # [20:33] <ArtB> AB: what is Carmelo's role?
  296. # [20:33] <ArtB> DS: helping with the test development
  297. # [20:34] <ArtB> Topic: AOB
  298. # [20:34] <ArtB> AB: anything?
  299. # [20:34] <ArtB> DS: none
  300. # [20:34] <ArtB> OP: none
  301. # [20:34] <ArtB> AB: meeting adjourned
  302. # [20:35] <ArtB> zakim, bye
  303. # [20:35] <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees were Shepazu, Art_Barstow, smaug
  304. # [20:35] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  305. # [20:35] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  306. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
  307. # [20:36] <ArtB> Title: DOM 3 Events Voice Conference
  308. # [20:37] <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
  309. # [20:37] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html ArtB
  310. # [20:42] <ArtB> RRSAgent, bye
  311. # [20:42] <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-actions.rdf :
  312. # [20:42] <RRSAgent> ACTION: shepazu to coordinate with SVG WG about 'window', to add behavior like HTML's [1]
  313. # [20:42] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-irc#T18-54-28
  314. # [20:42] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  315. # [20:50] * ArtB changes topic to 'Web Applications WG (this channel is logged at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
  316. # [21:19] * Quits: ArtB (d0309a43@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
  317. # [22:39] * Quits: heycam (cam@124.168.80.126) (Quit: bye)
  318. # [23:07] * Joins: sicking (chatzilla@63.245.220.241)
  319. # [23:12] * Joins: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84)
  320. # Session Close: Thu Mar 12 00:00:00 2009

The end :)