/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2009-04-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Apr 24 00:00:01 2009
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  6. # [00:49] * Topic is 'Web Applications WG (this channel is logged at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
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  11. # [00:54] * Topic is 'Web Applications WG (this channel is logged at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/)'
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  31. # [10:31] <arve> anyone seen tlr?
  32. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> arve: nope
  33. # [10:36] <arve> nevermind, I'll reply to the list
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  36. # [10:49] <Marcos> MikeSmith is going to die of alcohol poisoning and it wont cost him a dime!
  37. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> Marcos: ?
  38. # [11:02] <Marcos> annevk: we all do
  39. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> Marcos: I may well die of alcohol poisoning, just wondering how you knew
  40. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> actually, I think it will be more like a general "alcohol-related tragedy"
  41. # [11:03] <Marcos> hehe
  42. # [11:03] <Marcos> I know these things
  43. # [11:04] <Marcos> I said yesterday that I owe you a beer, then anne said that we all do
  44. # [11:04] <Marcos> if we all owe you are beer, then you are screwed and you should prepare your will today
  45. # [11:04] <Marcos> ...and please leave me something good.
  46. # [11:05] <Hixie> he doesn't have to drink them
  47. # [11:05] <Hixie> though knowing him...
  48. # [11:05] <Marcos> hehe
  49. # [11:05] <Marcos> hardcore how many publications came out yesterday
  50. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> "hardcore" is term we should use more often in W3C/standards work
  51. # [11:07] <Marcos> Whoa, I didn't realize it was Nokia who put in those API proposals
  52. # [11:07] <Marcos> Sneaky Barstow :)
  53. # [11:07] <Marcos> Wonder what BONDI will do
  54. # [11:08] <Marcos> Now we do have a BlueRay VS HD-DVD standards war on our hands! :D
  55. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> I would share my beer
  56. # [11:10] <Marcos> you should. but you wont.
  57. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> I would share the crap beer and keep the good beer for myself
  58. # [11:11] <Marcos> heheh
  59. # [11:12] <Marcos> darobin: yt?
  60. # [11:13] <MikeSmith> this hardcore thing makes me remember that we need to find ways to be more intimidating
  61. # [11:14] <Marcos> Who are we trying to intimidate?
  62. # [11:14] <MikeSmith> people who talk trash about the open Web platform, about standards
  63. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> or about me in particular
  64. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> I mean, people don't talk trash about the Mafia
  65. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> not if they know what's good for them
  66. # [11:15] <Marcos> I agree
  67. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> because they are rightly afraid to
  68. # [11:16] <Marcos> because everything is at stake.
  69. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> there used to be these "I'm the <something>" commercials, to put a face on an organization
  70. # [11:17] <MikeSmith> "I'm the Army" or something
  71. # [11:17] <Marcos> Perhaps we could organize some kind of militia?
  72. # [11:17] <Marcos> "Bully-boys of the Web"
  73. # [11:18] <Marcos> "WTF did you say about the <font> tag, motherfucker!"
  74. # [11:18] <Marcos> that kind of thing
  75. # [11:19] * Marcos wonders if Hixie would take a look at the last email from darobin quickly in WebApps?
  76. # [11:20] <Hixie> what's the problem with protocol handler?
  77. # [11:20] <darobin> mmmm, I should get an IRC client that's not chatzilla; it doesn't alert me when someone addresses me if I happen to be using the browser at the same time
  78. # [11:20] <Marcos> get Colloquy
  79. # [11:21] <darobin> Hixie: there isn't a 1-1 mapping between scheme and protocol, and some schemes aren't protocols (e.g. file)
  80. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> darobin: XChat
  81. # [11:21] <darobin> MikeSmith: puh-lease :)
  82. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> darobin: OK, quit bitching and write your own e-mail client, sissy
  83. # [11:22] <darobin> MikeSmith: it's still on my todo list somewhere ;-)
  84. # [11:22] * Marcos has to go and serve lunch to the Opera staff... it's "Aussie food day" here and we baked 28 giant meat pies.
  85. # [11:23] <Hixie> darobin: but the API in the DOM is location.protocol, a.protocol, etc
  86. # [11:23] <darobin> Hixie: of less importance is the fact that some schemes map to the same protocol, e.g. itms: is really HTTP, but you don't want it handled by your "HTTP protocol handler" (whatever that is)
  87. # [11:23] <darobin> ah, I knew there must be some reason
  88. # [11:24] <Hixie> i guess i could change the prose to refer to schemes
  89. # [11:25] <darobin> it might be clearer, I obviously agree keeping the DOM names but they made some pretty strange decisions back then and having the prose use the URI terminology wouldn't hurt
  90. # [11:25] <darobin> just like I'm happier calling a query string a query string rather than a "search"
  91. # [11:27] <anne> since searching is now known as googling, that doesn't seem much of a problem :)
  92. # [11:28] <darobin> rofl
  93. # [11:29] <darobin> btw who rejected publishing html5 in html5?
  94. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> darobin: I did.
  95. # [11:29] <Hixie> ij did actually, but based on pubrules
  96. # [11:29] <darobin> MikeSmith: why? is it just a pubrules issue?
  97. # [11:30] <Hixie> the thread's on w3c archive if you want to see the nitty gritty
  98. # [11:30] <darobin> but so if pubrules were changed to accept html5 would the issue go away?
  99. # [11:30] <darobin> I'll look later
  100. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> because publishing it at HTML4 creates the least amount of contentious discussion and pain and frustration for me
  101. # [11:30] <darobin> I'm a bit surprised, the previous HTML specs were largely published in themselves
  102. # [11:30] <darobin> MikeSmith: that I understand :)
  103. # [11:30] <Hixie> before REC/CR?
  104. # [11:31] <darobin> I haven't looked at all the old drafts
  105. # [11:31] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-html40-970708/ has no doctype at all
  106. # [11:31] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-html40-970917/ is 4.0 transitional
  107. # [11:31] <Hixie> so yeah, i guess you're right
  108. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> well, the real people we have to thank for this are the jackasses who cooked up doctype sniffing and though it was a brilliant idea
  109. # [11:32] <darobin> anyway, I was mostly curious, I have too many other things on my plate to get deep into this debate
  110. # [11:32] <Hixie> darobin: yeah, me too, that's why i just folded and changed to 4.x instead of arguing for more than a few e-mails
  111. # [11:33] <darobin> I'm just surprised at the break with the dogfood approach used previously
  112. # [11:34] <darobin> I guess it'll become worth arguing about starting with CR
  113. # [11:34] <Hixie> by then the entire web will be using html5 :-P
  114. # [11:34] <darobin> hehehehe
  115. # [11:34] <Hixie> (cr ~2012)
  116. # [11:35] <Hixie> i expect to push hard for using html5 at last call (october)
  117. # [11:35] <Hixie> cos then i'll have nothing else to do :-)
  118. # [11:35] <darobin> good plan
  119. # [11:35] <darobin> maybe we should be kafkaian and have html5 published using xhtml2 and vice versa
  120. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> for real dogfooding, we should put the entire text content of the spec into SVG within the HTML
  121. # [11:36] <Hixie> darobin: that would be hilarious
  122. # [11:36] <darobin> MikeSmith: IIRC the WICD spec wasn't far from going down that road
  123. # [11:36] <darobin> Hixie: shame April 1st is already behind us
  124. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> darobin: speaking of WICD, I suspect that whole thing was an elaborate Kafkaesque put-on from the get-go
  125. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> darobin: btw, are you all set up for editing now?
  126. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> I mean as far as CVS and the wiki
  127. # [11:46] <anne> Hixie, spec Web SQL? :p
  128. # [11:53] <Hixie> anne: yeah, i was thinking that earlier (that i might delay last call for websql until around january, so that i can work on sql while html5 is in lc collecting comments)
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  147. # [15:55] * anne wonders why it is taking "ages" for his e-mails to show up
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  149. # [15:59] <smaug> anne: where is the spec for webstorage event?
  150. # [16:00] <anne> http://dev.w3.org/html5/webstorage/
  151. # [16:01] <anne> the event is called storage
  152. # [16:01] <anne> hmm, the archives show two out of three e-mails, my inbox has one, wtf
  153. # [16:05] <smaug> anne: is it possible that the spec has changed at some point?
  154. # [16:05] <smaug> I wish html5 had reasonable history log
  155. # [16:05] <smaug> something like bonsai
  156. # [16:07] * Quits: darobin (robinb@81.66.15.230) (Ping timeout)
  157. # [16:07] <smaug> because in this case I'd like to see what the spec said 3 years ago
  158. # [16:08] <anne> when it was still globalStorage it was dispatched at the body element
  159. # [16:09] <anne> that changed when it became localStorage
  160. # [16:09] <smaug> ah, fun
  161. # [16:09] <smaug> so fun
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  163. # [16:10] <anne> it never bubbled though
  164. # [16:10] <smaug> anne: what was the reason to change the target?
  165. # [16:11] <anne> dunno, though "the body element" is a pretty vague and annoying concept
  166. # [16:11] <anne> Firefox also does not implement the event object correctly, if you care
  167. # [16:11] <smaug> agree, but globalStorage was already implemented...
  168. # [16:12] * smaug hasn't reviewed that event
  169. # [16:12] <smaug> anne: you mean the interface isn't right?
  170. # [16:13] <anne> yeah, no key/oldValue/newValue/maybe others
  171. # [16:13] <smaug> ok, again more fun, html5 broke backward compatibility with globalStorage
  172. # [16:14] <anne> that was the point right? globalStorage was badly designed
  173. # [16:14] <anne> (not that localStorage does not have its own share of issues)
  174. # [16:14] <smaug> yeah, but it is there and it is used
  175. # [16:14] <smaug> html5 has had similar issues with message event too
  176. # [16:15] <anne> <event-source> is also used
  177. # [16:15] <smaug> though, html5 is just a draft...
  178. # [16:15] <anne> what can I say :)
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  180. # [16:16] <anne> if globalStorage had been implemented by >1 browsers in the same way I'm sure things would've been different
  181. # [16:16] <anne> but now it's mostly a mess
  182. # [16:16] <smaug> well, event handling has traditionally been a big mess :)
  183. # [16:18] <smaug> ...which is why I like it
  184. # [16:18] <anne> heh
  185. # [16:18] <anne> I can appreciate HTML for similar reasons
  186. # [16:18] <anne> though I'd like to fix it as well
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  188. # [16:19] <smaug> there are different ways to "fix"
  189. # [16:19] <smaug> when fixing event handling, we can always come up with new event names and standardize how they should be dispatched
  190. # [16:20] <smaug> and deprecate old events
  191. # [16:20] <anne> what does deprecate mean?
  192. # [16:20] <smaug> but we should never ever reuse the old event names
  193. # [16:20] <smaug> well, deprecating meaning "don't care"
  194. # [16:20] <anne> does it mean UAs will drop support for it?
  195. # [16:20] <smaug> no
  196. # [16:20] <anne> then I'm not sure that solution works
  197. # [16:21] <smaug> if UA supports something, it should probably first start warn web developers about using deprecated event
  198. # [16:21] <smaug> and then in the next release drop support
  199. # [16:21] <smaug> or something like that
  200. # [16:22] <smaug> we have done that to some event handling features
  201. # [16:22] <smaug> something which were there for netscape 4 compatibility
  202. # [16:23] <smaug> hi wellington
  203. # [16:24] <smaug> have you had time to test websockets + apache?
  204. # [16:24] <wellington> hi smaug
  205. # [16:24] <wellington> yes, I had
  206. # [16:24] <wellington> I sent an email last week
  207. # [16:24] <wellington> I got apache doesn't support the protocol
  208. # [16:25] <smaug> wellington: you sent email last week? I don't think I got it
  209. # [16:26] <wellington> it was 2009-04-11, two weeks sorry :)
  210. # [16:27] <wellington> do you want I send it to you again?
  211. # [16:27] <smaug> wellington: ok, that message. But you haven't got any reply from Apache?
  212. # [16:28] <wellington> No, only the reply from Mathias
  213. # [16:28] <wellington> perhaps someone could raise this in their httpd community
  214. # [16:28] * Quits: nico (nico@133.27.247.181) (Ping timeout)
  215. # [16:29] <smaug> wellington: but did he know what the problem is?
  216. # [16:29] <smaug> I'm talking about this: " I found out that sometimes Apache uses the posted messages as url requests and sometimes it simply ignores them"
  217. # [16:30] * Joins: nico (nico@133.27.247.181)
  218. # [16:31] <wellington> no. He said he isn't involved in the httpd community
  219. # [16:31] <wellington> smaug: I think he works with other Apache project
  220. # [16:31] <wellington> I wrote to him because he had written to me last month asking about my youtube websocket video
  221. # [16:32] <smaug> ah
  222. # [16:33] <smaug> I wonder if the protocol should be changed somehow so that also Apache+cgi could be used
  223. # [16:34] <wellington> smaug: it would be nice. Unfortunately I don't know the apache internals
  224. # [16:53] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.136.52.180)
  225. # [17:06] <wellington> smaug: I tried to join the httpd list in order to ask them about the issue but I couldn't...
  226. # [17:07] <wellington> smaug: I'm going to lunch, if you can write to them please
  227. # [17:07] <wellington> smaug: bye
  228. # [17:07] <anne> smaug, if it does mean the UA will drop support for it that might work I suppose
  229. # [17:07] <anne> smaug, though this doesn't seem too different from changing how certain APIs work
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  254. # [23:39] <smaug> anne: it is quite different
  255. # [23:39] <smaug> if you change API, you break things immediately
  256. # Session Close: Sat Apr 25 00:00:00 2009

The end :)