/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2009-04-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 30 00:00:01 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
  3. # [00:14] <Hixie> shepazu: are you following the "Exposing EventTarget to JavaScript" thread on whatwg?
  4. # [00:23] * smaug hasn't still seen a good use case for that, though implementing "EventTarget" object (something separate to DOM nodes etc) should be very easy.
  5. # [00:24] <annevk> yeah, I wasn't very convinced either
  6. # [00:24] <annevk> even less with renaming some methods for convenience
  7. # [00:24] <annevk> (though making the third argument optional makes sense)
  8. # [00:29] <Hixie> i have no opinion, i just want to make sure the editor of the relevant spec sees the comments
  9. # [00:48] <shepazu> Hixie: no, I haven't been
  10. # [00:50] <shepazu> the best way for them to get my attention on it is by sending an email to www-dom
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  17. # [02:01] <Hixie> shepazu: that's what i told them
  18. # [02:02] <shepazu> thanks, Hixie
  19. # [02:02] <shepazu> I appreciate your setting up a forum and keeping an eye on it
  20. # [02:02] <shepazu> you're very good about shunting comments into the right box :)
  21. # [02:03] <shepazu> you should have been a postal carrier
  22. # [02:03] <Hixie> it's a side-effect of promising to reply to every e-mail
  23. # [02:03] <Hixie> it makes every e-mail to that list my problem :-)
  24. # [02:04] <shepazu> as an aside, my mailman is the oldest full-time postal carrier in the country (apparently)
  25. # [02:05] <shepazu> also, my old bus driver (a few year ago, when I took the bus), was a former double-agent, working for the State Department and the KGB :)
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  27. # [02:07] <shepazu> http://orange.mync.com/site/Orange/news/story/32226/oldest-nc-mail-carrier-to-recieve-award/
  28. # [02:08] <shepazu> http://www.indyweek.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A15586
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  56. # [12:46] <ArtB> join #wam
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  59. # [13:20] <Marcos> Anne, darobin is saying things about you. I mean, we want to talk about URI scheme for widgets\
  60. # [13:20] <Marcos> :)
  61. # [13:20] * anne is getting the feeling he was bribed with delicious food
  62. # [13:20] * anne is not too upset about it
  63. # [13:20] <Marcos> hehe, our current proposal is widget-URI = "widget:" "//" UUID "/" zip-rel-path
  64. # [13:21] <Marcos> but we are wondering if we really need the UUID bit
  65. # [13:21] <Marcos> so, the use case for the URI scheme is obviously html5 and origin
  66. # [13:22] <Marcos> darobin: put together a proposal for the URI scheme at http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-uri/
  67. # [13:22] * Marcos would not bribe ;)
  68. # [13:23] <Marcos> Use case, we have two widgets running at the same time. The UA needs to distinguish between them (like two tabs, but stricter, no shared cookies, no shared storage)
  69. # [13:24] <darobin> Other important point: it is necessary that a widget that is stopped and restarted should get the same origin
  70. # [13:25] <anne> For origin you do not need a URI in principel
  71. # [13:25] <darobin> so basically we can rely on HTML5 section 5.4 step 3 of the URL algo, with the addition that once an opaque unique identifier is attributed then it needs to stick
  72. # [13:25] <anne> You can just say it's a UUID or some such
  73. # [13:25] <darobin> yeah but we need URIs to resolve relative URLs anyway
  74. # [13:25] <darobin> that's what we say :)
  75. # [13:26] <Marcos> But do we _really_ need the UUID?
  76. # [13:26] <anne> For a widget URI you probably do not need a UUID
  77. # [13:26] <darobin> we're wondering if it's best to say UUID (as in the current draft) or to say that the UA does something in every respect like a UUID, but doesn't expose it
  78. # [13:26] <darobin> the UUID could perhaps be useful down the line for inter-widget communication, but that's not for v1
  79. # [13:26] <Marcos> UUID makes the uri really ugly. Can't the UA handle that identification internally?
  80. # [13:27] <anne> HTML5 says "globally unique identifier" for when an origin cannot be determined
  81. # [13:27] <anne> It is currently never exposed to the outside world
  82. # [13:27] <Marcos> right.
  83. # [13:28] <anne> afaict you only need widget:// or some such to define what <a>.href returns and how resources are resolved within the widget so following from that you do not need a UUID there
  84. # [13:28] <darobin> yeah we know that
  85. # [13:28] <anne> ok
  86. # [13:28] <darobin> we're just wondering if there's any value in exposing the "globally unique identifier"
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  88. # [13:29] <anne> it doesn't seem you have use cases yet :)
  89. # [13:29] <darobin> or any problem in doing it
  90. # [13:29] <darobin> right, that's what we thought
  91. # [13:29] <Marcos> exactly
  92. # [13:29] <darobin> but since it's just the two of us, we also thought it could be useful to ask others :)
  93. # [13:29] <anne> i agree with you guys it seems
  94. # [13:29] <darobin> I think the only UC is inter-widget comm, but that's for later
  95. # [13:30] <darobin> all that consensus — it's annoying
  96. # [13:30] <anne> yeah, though comm requires a bit more I think
  97. # [13:30] <Marcos> we want to add widget comm at some later point, but we don't know yet how to do that. Will our current proposal work with iframes?
  98. # [13:30] <anne> e.g. discovery; dealing with multiple instances; etc.
  99. # [13:31] <Marcos> we want the widget uri to simply be widget://path
  100. # [13:31] <Marcos> I mean, widget:///path
  101. # [13:31] <darobin> multiple instances is a bitch
  102. # [13:31] <anne> Marcos, if you say that all widget resources share the same globally unique origin it should work with <iframe> I think
  103. # [13:31] <darobin> no you were right with the first one marcos, it just so happens that "path" starts with / :)
  104. # [13:31] <Marcos> yeah
  105. # [13:31] <darobin> anne: you mean all the resources in ONE widget share the same yada yada
  106. # [13:32] <anne> yeah, maybe even ONE widget instance
  107. # [13:32] <darobin> multiple instances is, as I've noted, a bitch
  108. # [13:32] <anne> :)
  109. # [13:32] <darobin> you also want to have the same origin when a widget is restarted
  110. # [13:32] <Marcos> yes, they are a bitch. I agree. But should be supported
  111. # [13:32] <darobin> which, given multiple instances, requires magic to work
  112. # [13:32] <Marcos> It can't be more of a bitch than having multiple tabs
  113. # [13:33] <Marcos> or multiple windows
  114. # [13:33] <anne> darobin, if the origin is transparent, I'm not sure that matters
  115. # [13:33] <darobin> multiple tabs is a bitch, I'm still waiting for different cookies per tab
  116. # [13:33] <darobin> anne: you mean opaque?
  117. # [13:33] <Marcos> darobin: but we specify that shared cookies is not allowed.
  118. # [13:34] <darobin> marcos: yeah — for widgets
  119. # [13:34] <anne> i.e. it's never exposed and a widget would thus never know the difference if it used origin FOO the first time and origin BAR the second
  120. # [13:34] * darobin needs coffee and cigarettes
  121. # [13:34] <Marcos> darobin: hang in there buddy, we are almost done
  122. # [13:34] <darobin> anne: sure, so long as the widget still has access to the storage it put stuff into last time it was running
  123. # [13:35] <anne> ah, I see what you mean
  124. # [13:35] <darobin> I think the conclusion is: we don't need UUID, but we need to specify that a given widget needs to have the same origin (or the effects of the same origin) across invocations
  125. # [13:35] <anne> so maybe you do want 1 origin per widget (not widget instance) and use sessionStorage for a widget instance
  126. # [13:36] <anne> then you have a somewhat clean mapping to localStorage / sessionStorage
  127. # [13:36] <darobin> yes, I think we want 1 origin per widget, and if there are multiple instances they have to handle it themselves
  128. # [13:36] <Marcos> right
  129. # [13:37] <darobin> ok, ta for the brainstorming, we'll give you more food
  130. # [13:37] * Marcos starts flippin through recipe books
  131. # [13:37] <darobin> I have some swell recipes too
  132. # [13:38] <Marcos> really! them's fighting words darobin! this calls for a cook-off!!!
  133. # [13:38] <darobin> so long as it's not a cock-off!
  134. # [13:38] <Marcos> hehehe
  135. # [13:38] <darobin> but yeah, let's having a cooking competition when you come to Paris and I go to Oslo
  136. # [13:41] <Marcos> I've been reading about bread making in France... new techniques being created there.
  137. # [13:42] <ArtB> down boys :)
  138. # [13:42] <Marcos> you want some too Barstow!!! hu?!
  139. # [13:42] <Marcos> :)
  140. # [13:43] * Marcos stops picking food fights
  141. # [13:43] * ArtB wonders if Shepazu is going to whip out a can of his Whup-Ass
  142. # [13:44] <darobin> marcos: I've been focusing on recipes that involve Marmite recently — but you probably didn't want to know that
  143. # [13:44] <Marcos> darobin, that's so wrong on so many levels.
  144. # [13:45] <darobin> I'd rather not get into a fight with shepazu, once a year is enough :)
  145. # [13:45] <darobin> marcos: I know it's so wrong, BUT IT FEELS SO RIGHT!
  146. # [13:45] <darobin> anyway, smokes and coffee it is
  147. # [13:47] <Marcos> :)
  148. # [13:55] <anne> heycam, where is Web IDL on dev.w3.org again?
  149. # [13:57] <darobin> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/
  150. # [13:57] <darobin> why man, don't you know it's obviously a 2006 thing?
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  152. # [14:00] <anne> I thought it had to be either a 2008 or 2006, but forgot it was webapi and not webapps or waf :)
  153. # [14:01] <anne> ta
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  156. # [14:08] <MikeSmith> we really should create a http://dev.w3.org/webapps directory and put all new stuff there
  157. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> and I think I could probably even move all of the existing cvs stuff in /2006/webapi and /2006/api to /webapps on the server side
  158. # [14:09] <MikeSmith> the cvs server side
  159. # [14:11] <MikeSmith> and just symlink both /2006/webapi and /2006/api to /webapps
  160. # [14:11] <anne> and 301 stuff too?
  161. # [14:12] <MikeSmith> anne: well, I meant actual symlinks on the filesystem
  162. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> move the cvs directories, complete with the whole change history
  163. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> it's all totally do-able, just frowned upon
  164. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> I've done it before
  165. # [14:53] <darobin> I have a quick errand to run, I might be a few minutes late to the call but I'll come for sure
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  183. # [17:29] * darobin off to a week-end on the coast, have fun!
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  196. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-widgets-reqs-20090430/
  197. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-widgets-digsig-20090430/
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  199. # [18:46] <ArtB> Thanks MikeSmith!
  200. # [18:47] <ArtB> MikeSmith - when will these docs appear in .../TR/{widgets,widgets-digsig}/ ?
  201. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> ArtB: after I fix the broken links that the editor should have fixed already
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  203. # [19:08] <ArtB> you mean for Reqs #45, #47 and #48?
  204. # [19:08] <ArtB> oops
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The end :)