/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2009-05-05 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 05 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  36. # [12:31] <ArtB> hendry, yt?
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  38. # [12:36] <hendry> ArtB: yes
  39. # [12:37] <ArtB> just sent you an email re dsp:Identifier
  40. # [12:37] <hendry> ArtB: on the thread or?
  41. # [12:38] <hendry> ArtB: ok, now i see it
  42. # [12:38] <hendry> more than a UA spec ..hey
  43. # [12:44] <hendry> oh i see Marcos's mail now
  44. # [12:44] <hendry> which is good
  45. # [12:44] <hendry> there is also that unique-ness question
  46. # [12:45] <hendry> i'm still not comfortable with it
  47. # [12:45] <hendry> but i'm no CA expert
  48. # [12:45] <ArtB> "it" is Frederick's proposal?
  49. # [12:46] <ArtB> I thought your question was more about whether or not the UA is supposed do anything with this property
  50. # [12:46] * Marcos_ is now known as marcos
  51. # [12:46] * marcos waves
  52. # [12:47] <hendry> ok, sticking to the point
  53. # [12:48] * hendry missed breakfast and is only 15mins away from lunch... oh gosh
  54. # [12:48] <hendry> well i won't care really. so if ppl are happy it's more than a UA spec then fine.
  55. # [12:49] <marcos> yeah, I can live with that too
  56. # [12:50] <ArtB> I would expect the XML Sig Props spec to address the uniqueness requirement
  57. # [12:51] <ArtB> hendry, since this spec is now in Last Call, we need to round-trip all comments with the Commentor to see if our proposed solution to a comment is OK or not
  58. # [12:52] <ArtB> so if you can live with FH's proposal, please do respond as such; if you cannot live with that proposal, please explain why
  59. # [12:52] <hendry> ok, i'll reply on the thread quickly now then
  60. # [12:58] * Joins: smaug (chatzilla@82.181.140.15)
  61. # [13:01] <hendry> lunch time :)
  62. # [13:02] <ArtB> thanks hendry!
  63. # [13:03] * ArtB moves ~10 related emails from Inbox to Widgets folders :-)
  64. # [13:04] <marcos> artb, took you advice to fold the i18n stuff straight into the spec and not produce yet another doc
  65. # [13:15] <ArtB> ok Marcos
  66. # [13:15] <ArtB> have you finished that task?
  67. # [13:16] <marcos> no, it's a big job
  68. # [13:16] <marcos> I think I said thursday
  69. # [13:16] <marcos> in the last teleconf
  70. # [13:17] <ArtB> yes, that's what I recall too
  71. # [13:17] <marcos> I'm hopeful to be done with the integration by then
  72. # [13:47] * Joins: taf2 (taf2@38.99.201.242)
  73. # [13:49] <marcos> ArtB: how does this sound "An implementation detail is some functional aspect that is beyond the scope of this specification and left to be implemented at the discretion of the implementer."
  74. # [13:49] <marcos> ?
  75. # [13:50] <anne> why do you need to define what an implementation detail is?
  76. # [13:51] <marcos> here we go...Because there are a few things that are left explicitly as an implementation detail (e.g., how to derive the user agent's locale)
  77. # [13:51] <anne> that doesn't sound like an implementation detail
  78. # [13:51] <anne> that sounds like you leave things undefined
  79. # [13:51] <marcos> no
  80. # [13:51] <anne> an implementation detail is whether to allocate 5 or 10 megabyte of memory
  81. # [13:52] <anne> or some such
  82. # [13:52] <marcos> "The user agent's locale is the end-user's preferred language and regional settings derived from the operating system or user agent (e.g. English, Australia). As there are numerous ways a user agent can acquire the end-user's language preference, how the user agent's locale is derived is an implementation detail."
  83. # [13:52] <marcos> however... "Within a user agent, this is represented by zero or more language tags and placed in the ua-language list."
  84. # [13:53] <marcos> so, we don't care how you get the UA's locale, just that you put it into a list
  85. # [13:54] <marcos> For instance, the end-user may have specified a language preference at install time by selecting a preferred language, or languages from a list, or a list of preferred languages could have been derived from the OS, etc.
  86. # [13:54] <marcos> anne, make sense?
  87. # [13:55] * ArtB catches up
  88. # [13:58] <anne> HTML5 simply has "may use the user's preferred language settings"
  89. # [13:58] <anne> for a similar situation
  90. # [14:01] * Joins: tlr (tlr@128.30.52.30)
  91. # [14:01] <marcos> anne, we are just a little more descriptive. I'm finding HTML5 a little too abstract in places.
  92. # [14:02] * marcos just thinks it's because he is not so smart, but it helps me to be clear.
  93. # [14:02] <marcos> :)
  94. # [14:02] <anne> i'm still not quite convinced it's an implementation detail
  95. # [14:02] <anne> it's more like it's left up to the implementation
  96. # [14:02] <marcos> what's the dif?
  97. # [14:03] <anne> an implementation detail is something that does not matter to interoperability under normal circumstances
  98. # [14:03] <marcos> right, that's what I want
  99. # [14:03] <anne> but it's not the case here :)
  100. # [14:04] <anne> the "etc." indicates that implementations can choose different strategies
  101. # [14:04] <anne> and end up with different results
  102. # [14:04] <anne> under normal circumstances
  103. # [14:04] <marcos> right
  104. # [14:04] <anne> so it's not an implementation detail
  105. # [14:04] <marcos> ok, I'm getting you
  106. # [14:06] * ArtB thinks this discussion underscores the low probability of us successfully meeting our Ease of Authoring design goal with the proposed L10N model ...
  107. # [14:06] <marcos> I don't agree. The i18n model is a no brainer.
  108. # [14:06] <ArtB> It's not an I18N model! :-)
  109. # [14:07] <marcos> hehe
  110. # [14:08] <marcos> The element-based localization model is simple
  111. # [14:08] <marcos> the folder-based localization model is also simple
  112. # [14:08] <marcos> but can get complex if an author tries to get fancy pants with it
  113. # [14:09] <marcos> otherwise, it's not more complicated then what is already used by widget engines
  114. # [14:10] <marcos> ACTION-298
  115. # [14:10] <marcos> can prolly be closed
  116. # [14:11] <anne> btw, if HTML5 is too abstract, what is HTML4?
  117. # [14:12] <marcos> hehe
  118. # [14:12] <ArtB> marcos, yes agree on 298. But what about 299? I don't think your proposal addressed this: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/299
  119. # [14:12] <marcos> I don't remember what that was about
  120. # [14:13] <marcos> It was i18n core that suggested we use ISO-8859-1
  121. # [14:13] <marcos> That is what is in the spec, so as far as I'm concerned that is closed
  122. # [14:13] <anne> iso-8859-1 does not exist on the Web
  123. # [14:14] <ArtB> I thought there was a question about if it should be UTF-8
  124. # [14:14] <anne> it's just an alias for windows-1252
  125. # [14:14] <ArtB> but I'm not positive and don't have a pointer handy ...
  126. # [14:14] <marcos> ok, so we should just default to windows-1252?
  127. # [14:15] <ArtB> perhaps we should seek advice from i18n WG
  128. # [14:16] <marcos> The proposal is: when <content src="index.html"/> is used, and you cannot derive the encoding of index.html, you should use ISO-8859-1.
  129. # [14:16] <marcos> Artb, it was i18n core that told us to do that
  130. # [14:16] <marcos> we had UTF-8 originally
  131. # [14:17] <ArtB> hmmm
  132. # [14:17] <marcos> ok, now it makes sense
  133. # [14:17] <marcos> should that be a "Should/Must/May" that that happens
  134. # [14:18] <anne> must be UTF-8 I'd say
  135. # [14:18] <ArtB> +1
  136. # [14:19] <ArtB> marcos, which section of P&C is relevant here?
  137. # [14:19] <marcos> The way it works in the spec is: firstly assume ISO-8859-1, if encoding sniffing fails, use ISO-8859-1... I agree. I had UTF-8 originally, I'll change it back
  138. # [14:19] * marcos searches...
  139. # [14:19] <marcos> step 3..
  140. # [14:19] <marcos> Configuration Defaults
  141. # [14:19] <marcos> start file encoding
  142. # [14:19] <marcos> DOMString
  143. # [14:19] <marcos> ISO-8859-1
  144. # [14:19] <marcos> Step 7
  145. # [14:20] <marcos> The character encoding of the start file, corresponding to the content element's charset attribute.
  146. # [14:20] <anne> <content> has a charset attribute?
  147. # [14:20] <marcos> yes, but I think we might dump it
  148. # [14:20] <marcos> (again, at the request of i18n)
  149. # [14:20] <marcos> they asked us to include it
  150. # [14:21] <marcos> Might dump it in favor of content-type="some/type;charset=foobar"
  151. # [14:21] <marcos> s/content-type="/type="
  152. # [14:22] <marcos> so <content type="text/html;charset=UTF-8" src="my.php" />
  153. # [14:24] <marcos> it kills one attribute
  154. # [14:24] <marcos> which is good
  155. # [14:24] <anne> it makes the other more complex
  156. # [14:24] <marcos> sure
  157. # [14:24] <anne> not entirely convinced you need either, but oh well
  158. # [14:25] <marcos> ok, what do you do when you get <content src="xmy"/>, where xmy is SilverLight?
  159. # [14:26] <marcos> just sniff?
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  167. # [15:35] <hendry> marcos: http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/#the-preference-element
  168. # [15:35] <hendry> marcos: is it mandatory?
  169. # [15:39] <hendry> for a widget runtime.
  170. # [16:16] <marcos> hendry: what?
  171. # [16:16] * Joins: arve (arve@85.89.230.140)
  172. # [16:16] <marcos> no, not mendatory
  173. # [16:17] <marcos> Arve, where you at?
  174. # [16:22] <hendry> marcos: is there a JS API to get/set preferences to along with it?
  175. # [16:23] <marcos> yes
  176. # [16:23] <marcos> widget.preferences implements Storage
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  178. # [16:24] <hendry> marcos: ok, wanted to follow up to Rainer on BONDI list RE: appconfig
  179. # [16:24] <hendry> saying that widget.preferences would be mandatory for a widget runtime
  180. # [16:24] <hendry> hence appconfig has no use
  181. # [16:25] <marcos> no, it's not.
  182. # [16:25] <hendry> though why can't preference be more general
  183. # [16:25] <marcos> how do you mean?
  184. # [16:25] <marcos> more general?
  185. # [16:25] <hendry> so it can read any config entry?
  186. # [16:26] <marcos> oh, we have other APIs for that
  187. # [16:26] <marcos> which are kinda dumb... I agree. I would prefer a general config.get("author") or something
  188. # [16:26] <hendry> argh, htf am i going to resolve the appconfig stuff
  189. # [16:26] <marcos> but we went with widget.authorInfo, widget.description, widget.blabla
  190. # [16:27] <hendry> ok, i am still going to ask bondi accept preference element as a requirement in place of appconfig
  191. # [16:32] <marcos> what is the appconfig?
  192. # [16:32] <marcos> hendry:
  193. # [16:33] <hendry> marcos: that bondi thing to read and set config.xml values
  194. # [16:33] * marcos has not see
  195. # [16:33] <marcos> n
  196. # [16:33] <hendry> marcos: you commented on it last week?
  197. # [16:33] <marcos> hehe,
  198. # [16:33] <hendry> appconfig widl review
  199. # [16:34] <marcos> I have a bot that spits venom from the side lines, I don't actually pay attention to what they are talking about
  200. # [16:34] <hendry> how can preferences by optional?
  201. # [16:34] <hendry> couldn't some widget rely on that?
  202. # [16:35] * marcos confused
  203. # [16:35] <hendry> if a widget has a bad config.xml, the index.html should not be executed right?
  204. # [16:35] <marcos> right
  205. # [16:35] <marcos> what is a bad config?
  206. # [16:36] <hendry> i dunno, id="foo"
  207. # [16:36] <marcos> no, that's ok
  208. # [16:36] <marcos> bad config would be a malformed config
  209. # [16:36] <hendry> id should be anyURI
  210. # [16:36] <marcos> yes, but if it's not, it won't crash
  211. # [16:36] <marcos> it just says, meh, and keeps going
  212. # [16:36] <hendry> so, it'll carry on executing the index.html?
  213. # [16:37] <marcos> sure
  214. # [16:37] <hendry> so i had some tests
  215. # [16:37] <marcos> here we go...
  216. # [16:37] <hendry> that tested for bad values in the config.xml
  217. # [16:37] <hendry> assuming that if it ran index.html, it would call a fail ajax script
  218. # [16:37] <marcos> yes, that is fine. The engine will still respond correctly. Which is to ignore bogus values
  219. # [16:38] <marcos> like in HTMLs, you don't crash if an <img height="banana">
  220. # [16:38] <hendry> ok
  221. # [16:38] <marcos> You just say "meh" and move on
  222. # [16:38] <hendry> ok
  223. # [16:38] <hendry> gosh, i hate testing
  224. # [16:39] * marcos does Nelson point and laugh at hendry
  225. # [16:39] <hendry> i don't see the point of negative testing config.xml values
  226. # [16:39] <marcos> You have to for interop
  227. # [16:40] * marcos will help you out once he finishes the P&C spec
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  229. # [16:40] <marcos> There is no point in doing anything ATM because of the i18n model changes
  230. # [16:40] <hendry> a test like i described, with id=foo and test.js-> fail() is pointless
  231. # [16:40] <hendry> marcos: ok ok don't worry
  232. # [16:40] <hendry> there is more of exercise in understanding how everything should work
  233. # [16:41] <marcos> Yeah, some things are going to be hard to test
  234. # [16:41] <marcos> using JS at least
  235. # [16:42] <marcos> because the JS does not interact with aspects of processing in the config doc, etc
  236. # [16:42] <marcos> But we will get it sorted
  237. # [16:52] <marcos> hendry: tell me more about this appconfig thing
  238. # [16:52] <marcos> what are the methods?
  239. # [16:56] <hendry> http://bondi.omtp.org/apis-current/namespaceorg_1_1omtp_1_1bondi_1_1appconfig.html
  240. # [16:56] <hendry> get set
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  242. # [16:56] <hendry> it should be just get
  243. # [16:57] <marcos> how would it work? what do they return?
  244. # [16:58] <marcos> oohh, I think I see
  245. # [16:58] <marcos> yeah, you don't need that
  246. # [16:58] <marcos> use widget.preferences
  247. # [16:58] <marcos> that API is dumbass
  248. # [16:58] <marcos> how do you delete something?
  249. # [16:59] <hendry> yes, there are tons of open questions, Paddy elaborated on the thread
  250. # [17:00] <hendry> if I could argue a widget runtime would have to have widget.preferences anyway, that would make it easier
  251. # [17:00] <marcos> BONDI should leave the config stuff to the W3C. If they want something they should ask for it
  252. # [17:00] <marcos> it does already\
  253. # [17:00] <marcos> I asked BONDI to review the latest draft
  254. # [17:01] <marcos> the latest draft of the A&E spec, that is
  255. # [17:04] <hendry> marcos: oh you said preferences implement Storage
  256. # [17:04] <marcos> right
  257. # [17:04] <hendry> you don't reference the W3C Storage spec do you?
  258. # [17:05] <marcos> we do
  259. # [17:05] <marcos> http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-api/#the-preferences-attribute
  260. # [17:06] <hendry> oh, ok i was looking in http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/#the-preference-element
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The end :)