/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2009-06-03 / end

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  95. # [20:33] <shepazu> trackbot, start telcon
  96. # [20:33] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  97. # [20:33] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  98. # [20:33] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-webapps-irc
  99. # [20:33] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  100. # [20:33] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  101. # [20:33] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAPP
  102. # [20:33] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
  103. # [20:33] <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
  104. # [20:33] <trackbot> Date: 03 June 2009
  105. # [20:33] <shepazu> Zakim, this will be D3E
  106. # [20:33] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, shepazu
  107. # [20:33] <shepazu> Zakim, this will be DOM3
  108. # [20:33] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; I see IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
  109. # [20:34] <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu
  110. # [20:34] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  111. # [20:34] <Zakim> IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM has now started
  112. # [20:34] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  113. # [20:35] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  114. # [20:36] * Joins: Travis (836b0046@128.30.52.43)
  115. # [20:37] <smaug> is there a call today?
  116. # [20:37] <Travis> yep!
  117. # [20:37] <smaug> just a minute
  118. # [20:42] <smaug> ok, now I need to find the phonenumber...
  119. # [20:44] <Zakim> +??P1
  120. # [20:44] <smaug> Zakim, ??P1 is me
  121. # [20:44] <Zakim> +smaug; got it
  122. # [20:44] <shepazu> Zakim, [Microsoft] is Travis
  123. # [20:44] <Zakim> +Travis; got it
  124. # [20:49] * Joins: MSjacob (836b0067@128.30.52.43)
  125. # [20:49] <shepazu> Zakim, [Microsoft] also has MSjacob
  126. # [20:49] <Zakim> sorry, shepazu, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft]'
  127. # [20:50] <shepazu> Zakim, Travis also has MSjacob
  128. # [20:50] <Zakim> +MSjacob; got it
  129. # [20:50] <shepazu> scribeNic: MSjacob
  130. # [20:50] <shepazu> scribeNick: MSjacob
  131. # [20:51] <shepazu> Topic: new telcon times
  132. # [20:51] <shepazu> shepazu: we have a new participant, Daniel from Google Wave
  133. # [20:53] <MSjacob> shepazu: flexible on new telcom time
  134. # [20:55] <MSjacob> shepazu: Send preferences for telcom times to www-DOM mailing list.
  135. # [20:56] <MSjacob> Topic: Mutation Events
  136. # [20:56] <MSjacob> shepazu: useful, pain, not performant
  137. # [20:56] <MSjacob> Travis: can't deprecate
  138. # [20:56] <MSjacob> shepazu: can put something in place to replace them
  139. # [20:57] <MSjacob> shepazu: shouldn't change the way they work now
  140. # [20:57] <MSjacob> Travis: agree
  141. # [20:57] <MSjacob> shepazu: bad perf better than breaking content
  142. # [20:57] <MSjacob> Travis: are all mutation events slow?
  143. # [20:58] <MSjacob> shepazu: will put in spec the ones that perform slowly, use these that operate better
  144. # [20:59] <MSjacob> Travis: JS Ninjas proposed alternate API (maybe from Dean Edwards) watchSelector, mutation event w/ callback based on a filter
  145. # [21:00] <MSjacob> Travis: probably use cases for this and the mutation events
  146. # [21:00] <MSjacob> Travis: selector based solution doesn't let you watch attributes
  147. # [21:00] <MSjacob> Travis: workaround: use x path
  148. # [21:01] <MSjacob> Travis: mostly need to know when one node changes
  149. # [21:02] <MSjacob> shepazu: steve sauders says CSS selectors end up being "malperformant" because people don't realize there are optimal and suboptimal ways of selecting
  150. # [21:03] <MSjacob> shepazu: after dev, will this selector-based solution actually be more performant?
  151. # [21:05] <MSjacob> Travis: it could be
  152. # [21:06] <MSjacob> shepazu: should have conversation on mailing list, if someone can implement it would be great to work on facts
  153. # [21:06] <MSjacob> Travis: could try to harvest feedback on mutation events, if there is a problem we could solve w/ a new performant mutation event we could just add that
  154. # [21:06] <MSjacob> Travis: maybe officially deprecate but wouldn't be obsolete
  155. # [21:07] <MSjacob> smaug: agree
  156. # [21:08] <MSjacob> shepazu: two reports from mozilla: we dont have plans to implement DOMsubtreemodified, we might even remove some of the others
  157. # [21:08] <MSjacob> shepazu: probably very small X-browser mutation events
  158. # [21:08] <MSjacob> Travis: doesn't say we don't include in DOM L3 events
  159. # [21:09] <MSjacob> Travis: action to start dicuss on mailing list about possible additional solutions that solve the mut. events problem, find existing perf problems and maybe ways to solve them
  160. # [21:09] <smaug> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html
  161. # [21:10] <smaug> Gecko does support DOMSubtreeModified
  162. # [21:10] <smaug> I implemented it :p
  163. # [21:11] <MSjacob> Travis: would love to see more edits of spec as they come
  164. # [21:11] <MSjacob> shepazu: hixie requested more explanation of what each event should do and when it should be fired
  165. # [21:11] <MSjacob> shepazu: next thing to go through and add more detail about the events
  166. # [21:13] <MSjacob> shepazu: jacob: come up with stuff on your own, run things by the rest of team
  167. # [21:13] <MSjacob> Travis: and doug and the rest of the guys
  168. # [21:13] <shepazu> Action: Travis to send in proposal from CSS Ninjas
  169. # [21:13] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  170. # [21:13] * RRSAgent records action 1
  171. # [21:13] <trackbot> Created ACTION-350 - Send in proposal from CSS Ninjas [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-06-10].
  172. # [21:14] <MSjacob> shepazu: action for Travis: send in proposal from the JS (CSS) Ninjas
  173. # [21:15] <MSjacob> Topic: diagrams, because they are pretty
  174. # [21:15] <MSjacob> Travis: did you use SVG?
  175. # [21:15] <MSjacob> shepazu: yes
  176. # [21:16] <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-Events-flow
  177. # [21:17] <MSjacob> shepazu: added window and made more pretty to events flow
  178. # [21:17] <MSjacob> Travis: beautiful
  179. # [21:17] <MSjacob> Travis: do these events bubble outside windows (like window in window)
  180. # [21:17] <MSjacob> shepazu: they don't
  181. # [21:17] <MSjacob> shepazu: if you have an iframe, it will not leave the iframe
  182. # [21:18] <MSjacob> shepazu: maybe in HTML5, hixie might have provided a way to do that
  183. # [21:18] <MSjacob> Travis: i think IE does do something like that
  184. # [21:18] <MSjacob> shepazu: one exception maybe, in same domain
  185. # [21:18] <MSjacob> shepazu: should be secure, but shouldn't do it in other scenarios
  186. # [21:19] <MSjacob> Travis: makes sense
  187. # [21:19] <MSjacob> shepazu: maybe worth noting events do not bubble outside the window
  188. # [21:20] <MSjacob> shepazu: by default, events do not bubble outside window. Under certain circumstances, a user agent may allow this when it's determined not to be a security risk
  189. # [21:20] * tlr is now known as tlr-running
  190. # [21:20] <MSjacob> Travis: jacob needs to look at seamless
  191. # [21:21] <MSjacob> shepazu: unrelated, for svg we're looking at a way to do parameters. for example, a button you want to reuse but alter params.
  192. # [21:22] <MSjacob> shepazu: useful way of messaging things between frames
  193. # [21:23] <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/proposals/d3e-keyflow.svg
  194. # [21:23] <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/proposals/keyflow-gecko.svg
  195. # [21:25] <MSjacob> shepazu: first one may be nice and pretty but not as accurate
  196. # [21:26] <MSjacob> shepazu: first chart attempt at indicating how the text input is generated
  197. # [21:26] <MSjacob> Travis: I think we need to do the same thing for IEs moddle
  198. # [21:26] <MSjacob> shepazu: please do
  199. # [21:27] <MSjacob> shepazu: if we can get b/w IE and Mozilla teams (and maybe Daniel from Google Wave) to provide script library to let people use new model on older stuff and go forward with this new model
  200. # [21:27] <MSjacob> Travis: I love it
  201. # [21:28] <MSjacob> shepazu: rare opportunity to get it right in a majority of languages. will also bring in a intern'l expert in on this.
  202. # [21:28] <MSjacob> shepazu: do we black box it or actually work up an IME model
  203. # [21:28] <MSjacob> Travis: If there's a great public IME creation system, that would be great
  204. # [21:29] <MSjacob> shepazu: Certain points on a slower connection that you might want to only do things after certain chars (like a space after a word in an AJAX lookup scenario)
  205. # [21:30] <MSjacob> Travis: looks like the FF one is pretty accurate. Need to do some thought analysis on this.
  206. # [21:30] <MSjacob> shepazu: happy to prettify / unify these
  207. # [21:30] <MSjacob> shepazu: would like to include as appendix in DOM3 events for interest in the old models
  208. # [21:31] <MSjacob> shepazu: smaug make sure yours is accurate, Travis MSjacob make a similar one for IE
  209. # [21:31] <MSjacob> shepazu: then I will try to unify
  210. # [21:32] <shepazu> Action: smaug to confirm gecko keyflow diagram
  211. # [21:32] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  212. # [21:32] * RRSAgent records action 2
  213. # [21:32] <trackbot> Created ACTION-351 - Confirm gecko keyflow diagram [on Olli Pettay - due 2009-06-10].
  214. # [21:32] <shepazu> Action: Travis to create and send in IE keyflow diagram
  215. # [21:32] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  216. # [21:32] * RRSAgent records action 3
  217. # [21:32] <trackbot> Created ACTION-352 - Create and send in IE keyflow diagram [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-06-10].
  218. # [21:33] <MSjacob> shepazu: don't forget to send in preferred times for telecon
  219. # [21:33] <MSjacob> shepazu: any other questions
  220. # [21:33] <MSjacob> Travis: link to spec is latest editors draft?
  221. # [21:33] <MSjacob> shepazu: yes
  222. # [21:33] <MSjacob> Travis: are the parts that are more/less stable that should be focused on?
  223. # [21:34] <MSjacob> shepazu: unstable: mutation events, keyboard events
  224. # [21:34] <MSjacob> shepazu: and wheel events
  225. # [21:34] <MSjacob> Travis: never closed on line/pixel scrolling
  226. # [21:34] <MSjacob> shepazu: got into ideas in different kinds of wheel events
  227. # [21:34] <MSjacob> shepazu: more stable: mouse events
  228. # [21:35] <MSjacob> shepazu: people have asked for additional mouse events
  229. # [21:35] <MSjacob> shepazu: plans for more advanced ui events (multi touch, pen and tablet)
  230. # [21:36] <shepazu> Wacom
  231. # [21:36] <MSjacob> shepazu: should consult with waycom
  232. # [21:37] <MSjacob> shepazu: hoping to get them involved in what they want to see on the web
  233. # [21:37] <MSjacob> shepazu: right now they deal with designers on the desktop, but things are moving to the web
  234. # [21:39] <Zakim> -smaug
  235. # [21:53] <Zakim> -Travis
  236. # [21:53] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  237. # [21:53] <Zakim> IA_WebAPI(DOM3)2:30PM has ended
  238. # [21:53] <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, smaug, Travis, MSjacob
  239. # [22:01] * Quits: MSjacob (836b0067@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
  240. # [22:05] <shepazu> trackbot, make minutes
  241. # [22:05] <trackbot> Sorry, shepazu, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  242. # [22:05] <shepazu> RRSAgent, make minutes
  243. # [22:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-webapps-minutes.html shepazu
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  245. # [22:14] <ArtB> shepazu, when do you plan to publish a new WD of D3E?
  246. # [22:14] <ArtB> nice diagram, btw :)
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  250. # [22:59] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  256. # Session Close: Thu Jun 04 00:00:00 2009

The end :)