/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2009-06-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 17 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
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  63. # [19:57] <annevk> sicking, yt?
  64. # [19:57] <sicking> annevk, yo
  65. # [19:57] <annevk> sicking, might help if you could chime in on the CORS discussion
  66. # [19:57] <annevk> (I'd hate to distract you from XBL2, but still...)
  67. # [19:57] <sicking> ugh, yeah, i know
  68. # [19:58] <sicking> i wish IE8 hadn't shipped so we could just change the headers
  69. # [19:58] <sicking> it seems clear to me what the "right" thing to do is, but it's unfortunately not compatible with IE8 :(
  70. # [19:58] <annevk> Tyler is currently claiming CORS is not needed at all...
  71. # [20:00] <sicking> I disagree
  72. # [20:00] <sicking> obviously :)
  73. # [20:00] <sicking> i'll try to catch up on the threads today or tomorrow
  74. # [20:00] <annevk> cheers, I'll work on something else for a while
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  79. # [21:04] * Joins: ojan (ojan@72.14.229.81)
  80. # [21:06] <ojan> is shepazu doug?
  81. # [21:07] <arve> yes
  82. # [21:07] <shepazu> ojan: yes
  83. # [21:07] <shepazu> hi, ojan
  84. # [21:08] <ojan> shepazu: what's the protocol if i want to crash the telcon today?
  85. # [21:09] <ojan> shepazu: as in, should i just call in/show up here?
  86. # [21:10] <shepazu> ojan: you know how to dial a phone? :)
  87. # [21:10] <shepazu> srsly, you're welcome to join
  88. # [21:10] <shepazu> at some point, we have to worry about IPR, but I don't think we're there yet
  89. # [21:10] <ojan> shepazu: ok. excuse my noob-dom, but does being on IRC actually work well? or should i call in?
  90. # [21:11] <shepazu> ojan: well, you really should call in, because most of the conversation happens via voice... IRC scribing is a pale substitiute
  91. # [21:12] <ojan> ok. thanks
  92. # [21:28] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Core Breach)
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  95. # [22:59] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  96. # [22:59] <shepazu> zakim, room for 8?
  97. # [22:59] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; conference Team_(webapps)20:55Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 2155Z
  98. # [22:59] <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu
  99. # [22:59] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  100. # [22:59] <Zakim> Team_(webapps)20:55Z has now started
  101. # [22:59] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  102. # [23:00] * Parts: ojan (ojan@72.14.229.81)
  103. # [23:05] <Zakim> + +1.415.736.aaaa
  104. # [23:06] <shepazu> Zakim, aaaa is ojan
  105. # [23:06] <Zakim> +ojan; got it
  106. # [23:06] <Zakim> +??P1
  107. # [23:06] <smaug> Zakim, ??P1 is smaug
  108. # [23:06] <Zakim> +smaug; got it
  109. # [23:06] <shepazu> Zakim, ??P1 is smaug
  110. # [23:06] <Zakim> I already had ??P1 as smaug, shepazu
  111. # [23:07] <annevk> Zakim, passcode?
  112. # [23:07] <Zakim> the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), annevk
  113. # [23:08] <Zakim> +??P2
  114. # [23:08] <annevk> Zakim, ??P2 is me
  115. # [23:08] <Zakim> +annevk; got it
  116. # [23:08] * annevk is muted
  117. # [23:09] * Joins: Travis (836b0053@128.30.52.43)
  118. # [23:09] <Travis> Conference call is "restricted?"
  119. # [23:10] <shepazu> zakim, code?
  120. # [23:10] <Zakim> the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), shepazu
  121. # [23:10] * annevk is actually at home, though he'd check what's up
  122. # [23:10] <shepazu> Travis: try that code
  123. # [23:10] <Travis> Thanks... just a sec...
  124. # [23:10] * annevk ... from the seventies?
  125. # [23:11] * annevk might find that boring
  126. # [23:11] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  127. # [23:11] <shepazu> Zakim, [Microsoft] is Travis
  128. # [23:11] <Zakim> +Travis; got it
  129. # [23:11] <shepazu> Zakim, Travis also has Jacob
  130. # [23:11] <Zakim> +Jacob; got it
  131. # [23:11] * Joins: MSjacob (836b0055@128.30.52.43)
  132. # [23:11] * Joins: ojan_ (ojan@72.14.229.81)
  133. # [23:12] <annevk> email www-archive maybe?
  134. # [23:12] <annevk> (and then link a pointer to the chart from the list)
  135. # [23:12] <annevk> (saves people downloading huge emails)
  136. # [23:13] <shepazu> www-archive@w3.org
  137. # [23:13] * annevk sort of
  138. # [23:19] <shepazu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009AprJun/0124.html
  139. # [23:20] <shepazu> scribenick: MSjacob
  140. # [23:21] <MSjacob> Topic: Mutation Events
  141. # [23:21] <smaug> I commented about onExecCommand
  142. # [23:21] <smaug> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009AprJun/0133.html
  143. # [23:22] <shepazu> Olli said, ""ExecCommand" event sounds useful, but it should be defined in the same spec where execCommand is defined. Adding "ExecCommand" to DOM Events spec doesn't make much sense, IMO."
  144. # [23:22] <MSjacob> smaug: I think onExecCommand should be in HTML5 and not DOM L3
  145. # [23:23] <MSjacob> ojan_: typing it to ExecCommand is a bit wierd
  146. # [23:24] <MSjacob> ojan_: tying*
  147. # [23:24] <MSjacob> smaug: should it be in DOM events spec of HTML5?
  148. # [23:25] <MSjacob> smaug: HTML5 defines the general model, sub groups define the specific areas
  149. # [23:25] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.174.38.173) (Ping timeout)
  150. # [23:26] <MSjacob> ojan_: sounds like general agreement is that DOM mutation events aren't the best solution
  151. # [23:27] <shepazu> s/smaug/shepazu/
  152. # [23:27] <annevk> AvK: contenteditable comes up in this context because mutation events are used to catch events "coming from there"
  153. # [23:28] <MSjacob> shepazu: maybe the best course of action is to get DOM 3 events done, maintain mutation events as they exists (admitting problems), come up with some other mechanism
  154. # [23:28] <shepazu> like Modification Notifications
  155. # [23:28] <MSjacob> shepazu: in some separate spec
  156. # [23:28] <MSjacob> shepazu: they're not events, they serve similar purpose, but I'm tempted to say we can't solve them at the moment, we could provide one or more mechanisms to solve those use cases
  157. # [23:29] <MSjacob> shepazu: alternately we could change them to a lesser degree than we would like, that solves it somewhat
  158. # [23:29] * smaug can't hear properly
  159. # [23:29] <smaug> oh, maybe now
  160. # [23:30] <MSjacob> annevk: solve the issue or drop mutation events all together and add it later as a separate thing
  161. # [23:31] <MSjacob> ojan_: if we had a different proposal, maybe browsers would drop implementation of the old mutation events
  162. # [23:31] <MSjacob> smaug: give warning and then drop later
  163. # [23:31] <MSjacob> shepazu: sympathetic to the view that we should not spec something people are not going to implement (pretty sound idea)
  164. # [23:32] <MSjacob> shepazu: we got serious kick backs because we said we were thinking about removing them
  165. # [23:32] <MSjacob> shepazu: don't know what the ramifications of removing them or moving to a different spec would be
  166. # [23:32] <MSjacob> shepazu: would this harm existing code?
  167. # [23:32] * annevk ... shepazu
  168. # [23:33] * annevk ... thought he was hearing some ping from shepazu's computer
  169. # [23:33] <MSjacob> shepazu: maybe splitting mutation events out into a separate spec might help those people and then having a better solution provided (anything anybody comes up with) might actually be the best long term solution
  170. # [23:33] * annevk ... oh it was true :)
  171. # [23:33] * annevk ... shepazu shepazu shepazu test
  172. # [23:33] <MSjacob> shepazu: would hate to see MSFT put a lot of energy into implementing mut. events rather than something else
  173. # [23:34] * shepazu has muted computer :)
  174. # [23:34] <MSjacob> ojan_: may be the crashiest thing in webkit
  175. # [23:34] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.174.38.173)
  176. # [23:34] <MSjacob> Travis: perhaps a solution would be to recommend not using them
  177. # [23:35] <MSjacob> smaug: mutation events are in the L2 spec, so they're already there
  178. # [23:35] <MSjacob> Travis: does the new spec have to be a superset?
  179. # [23:35] <MSjacob> shepazu: that's typically how it's done, but there's deprecation
  180. # [23:36] <MSjacob> shepazu: could keep them in L3, deprecate them
  181. # [23:36] <MSjacob> Travis: is it possible to produce the replacement in this spec in a timely mannar?
  182. # [23:36] <MSjacob> shepazu: I don't think it belongs in this spec
  183. # [23:36] <annevk> (arguably mutation events, if any, are to be defined in DOM Core)
  184. # [23:37] <MSjacob> shepazu: whether it belongs in an event spec or something outside of that does not indicate whether it should be provided in this specification
  185. # [23:37] <MSjacob> shepazu: pen/tablet/touch events would happen in a different spec than this one
  186. # [23:37] <MSjacob> Travis: who has pushed back on deprecating them?
  187. # [23:39] <MSjacob> shepazu: people who have written script libraries, people who have specialized user agents that use mut. events that aren't actually browsers (more constraint environment), WAI (Recommended they not use that, custom event would be better), and people that are "Traditionalists" and want it to be the way they were
  188. # [23:40] <MSjacob> shepazu: some people regardless think it should stay in because it was in L2
  189. # [23:40] <MSjacob> shepazu: i think it's important to know which of those 3 (4) categories people are in
  190. # [23:41] <MSjacob> Action: shepazu to deprecate mutation events and provide a qualification that we would be supplying a replacement solution
  191. # [23:41] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  192. # [23:41] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  193. # [23:41] <annevk> trackbot, this is webapps
  194. # [23:41] <trackbot> Sorry, annevk, I don't understand 'trackbot, this is webapps'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  195. # [23:41] <shepazu> trackbot, start telcon
  196. # [23:41] <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
  197. # [23:41] <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
  198. # [23:42] <shepazu> trackbot, associate this channel with #webapps
  199. # [23:42] <trackbot> Associating this channel with #webapps...
  200. # [23:42] <shepazu> Zakim, this will be DOM3
  201. # [23:42] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, shepazu
  202. # [23:43] <MSjacob> Topic: Keyboard Model
  203. # [23:46] <MSjacob> shepazu: smaug has said he checked the diagram on windows, have you tried to do it on other systems?
  204. # [23:46] <MSjacob> smaug: no, I don't have IME
  205. # [23:47] <MSjacob> shepazu: from dan and dtoybox (from mozilla?) on dl on IME
  206. # [23:48] <MSjacob> shepazu: are we thinking IME events should be in this spec?
  207. # [23:48] <MSjacob> Travis: I think so, there's some interesting Mozilla (compositionstart/end) events around IME
  208. # [23:49] <MSjacob> Travis: what else are the use cases for the IME, do people want to implement that in a web page, or just know the user is using an IME
  209. # [23:49] <MSjacob> smaug: need to know the user is doing something
  210. # [23:50] <MSjacob> ojan_: something in google wave where they need to know every char before it is modified, another case is google suggestion (autocomplete drop down)
  211. # [23:50] <MSjacob> MSjacob: Trident key flow diagram: http://www.jacobrossi.com/Trident_Key_Event_Flow.png
  212. # [23:56] <annevk> www-archive version: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Jun/att-0098/Trident_Key_Event_Flow.png
  213. # [23:56] <Travis> Thanks Anne.
  214. # [23:57] <Travis> MSjacob: ...describes the flow
  215. # [23:57] <Travis> shepazu: Is MSFT open to changing this?
  216. # [23:58] <Travis> Definately some missing functionality that we should figure out how to integrate
  217. # [23:59] <Travis> MSjacob: textInput is valuable addition to the pipeline, especially when no events are fired from IME interaction.
  218. # Session Close: Thu Jun 18 00:00:00 2009

The end :)