/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2009-07-29 / end

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  52. # [15:28] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.54.58)
  53. # [15:51] <Marcos> Hi Karl, what brings you to the wild webapps west?
  54. # [15:52] <ArtB> Marcos, you're working on something called a Test Suite Edition of the Widgets P+C spec?
  55. # [15:53] <Marcos> Yes, I am. I had a teleconf with the Mobile Web Test Suites WG and we decided on editorial changes that needed to be made to the P&C to make it testable
  56. # [15:54] <Marcos> I guess minutes from the teleconf must be available in the MWTS archives. You may recall, this was also the agreement that we had with Dom as part of his Last Call comments. The changes include...
  57. # [15:54] <ArtB> did you fork the spec?
  58. # [15:55] <Marcos> Artb, not yet (as I have not checked in the changes). But I will.
  59. # [15:55] <karl> Marcos: I'm here for a while. Just keeping a distant eye on the irc discussions :)
  60. # [15:56] <Marcos> Great Karl! then I can ask you QA questions :)
  61. # [15:56] <Marcos> Artb, I was saying, the changes are...
  62. # [15:56] <karl> Keeping contact with w3c community too. I'm deep into business realities of Web Design and it's often amazing how people of each communities cast what is reality ;)
  63. # [15:56] <karl> "Reality is mine!" ;)
  64. # [15:56] <Marcos> amen to that!
  65. # [15:57] <Marcos> 1. identify the class of product through markup to which an assertion applies (e.g., A <span class="product-ua">user agent</span> <em class="ct">must</em> )
  66. # [15:58] <karl> but it is very difficult to be really effective for w3c without having a job with time dedicated for it.
  67. # [15:58] <karl> I should change job I think if I want to come back to w3c work. :)
  68. # [15:58] <Marcos> 2. Put a stable IDs on every testable assertion (e.g, <p id="123123"> <span class="product-ua">user agent</span> <em class="ct">must</em> )
  69. # [15:59] * karl is reading the text of marcos
  70. # [15:59] <Marcos> 3. Remove untestable assertions
  71. # [16:00] <Marcos> that's pretty much it
  72. # [16:00] <karl> nice !
  73. # [16:01] <karl> that would make it easy to extract a list of assertions.
  74. # [16:01] <karl> at least a flat list
  75. # [16:01] <Marcos> So, then Dom will extend his Testable Assertion extractor to build test tables.
  76. # [16:01] <Marcos> karl, we have one already! It's neat :) We just want to extend it to group by product.
  77. # [16:02] * Marcos gets url
  78. # [16:02] <Marcos> http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fdev.w3.org%2F2006%2Fwaf%2Fwidgets%2Ftests%2FextractTestAssertions.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.w3.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Ftidy-if%3FdocAddr%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.w3.org%252FTR%252Fwidgets%252F
  79. # [16:03] <Marcos> ArtB: the aim is to get a stable version to test against
  80. # [16:03] <ArtB> that's what the CR was supposed to be ...
  81. # [16:04] <anne2> as a proof of concept i tried that for one requirement in XHR
  82. # [16:04] <anne2> turns out it encompasses eight requirements in total
  83. # [16:04] <anne2> should these all get their own ID?
  84. # [16:04] <Marcos> yes, anne2, then we can link to them from here: http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/tests/plan.html
  85. # [16:05] <ArtB> Marcos, do you have a list of the "untestable assertions"?
  86. # [16:05] <Marcos> ArtB: at the moment, yes. But the aim is to kill those and make the text descriptive (or change the text to make it testable).
  87. # [16:06] <hendry> Marcos: did you get a chance to review the templates btw? http://git.webvm.net/?p=wgtqa;a=tree;f=misc
  88. # [16:06] <Marcos> Hendry, it's on my todo. Right after I finish fixing the spec so we can test it.
  89. # [16:07] <Marcos> Artb: and example of an assertion that is wrong "A language tag is a text string that must match the production of a Language-Tag defined in the [BCP47] specifications."
  90. # [16:07] <hendry> Marcos: great. also try convince ppl to come along to http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/Tests/blog/2009/07/29/widget_test_event (i know you're not going)
  91. # [16:07] <anne2> I don't follow
  92. # [16:08] <Marcos> Anne2, must needs to be dropped as the above defines "language tag". The user agent tests if a language tag is valid in another part of the spec. The language tag cannot test itself.
  93. # [16:14] <karl> anne2: "Don't use MUST to constrain specs; specs aren't software agents." was the topic in a thread in 2003 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-qa/2003Apr/thread.html#msg19
  94. # [16:15] <anne2> I still don't follow
  95. # [16:15] <anne2> though I strongly agree with DanC on that one
  96. # [16:16] <anne2> (and not with e.g. chaals)
  97. # [16:16] <karl> and also http://esw.w3.org/topic/RfcKeywords
  98. # [16:16] <karl> http://www.w3.org/2001/01/mp23
  99. # [16:20] * Marcos trying to follow what Danc sez in http://www.w3.org/2001/01/mp23
  100. # [16:20] <Marcos> s/trying to follow/trying to apply
  101. # [16:24] * MikeSmith is now known as MikeSmith^away
  102. # [16:24] <Marcos> Artb, thoughts?
  103. # [16:35] <ArtB> Marcos, I hadn't seen DanC's doc
  104. # [16:36] <ArtB> seems like the main thing is to be consistent
  105. # [16:36] <ArtB> and if using the keywords can help automate the extraction of testable assertions, that's an important consideration
  106. # [16:37] <Marcos> It certainly can. It will make testing much easier.
  107. # [16:37] <ArtB> Marcos, a concern I have is making normative changes to the spec i.e. a change that will affect an impl
  108. # [16:38] <Marcos> ArtB: I agree. No such changes will be made.
  109. # [16:39] * ArtB must go for an hour or so ...
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  128. # [23:05] <shepazu> trackbot, start telcon
  129. # [23:05] * trackbot is starting a teleconference
  130. # [23:05] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  131. # [23:05] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-webapps-irc
  132. # [23:05] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  133. # [23:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  134. # [23:05] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  135. # [23:05] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAPP
  136. # [23:05] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
  137. # [23:05] <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
  138. # [23:05] <trackbot> Date: 29 July 2009
  139. # [23:06] <shepazu> zakim, this will be DOM3
  140. # [23:06] <Zakim> ok, shepazu, I see IA_WebApps(DOM3)5:00PM already started
  141. # [23:06] * shepazu zakim, call shepazu
  142. # [23:06] * Zakim ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  143. # [23:06] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  144. # [23:07] <Zakim> +??P1
  145. # [23:08] <smaug> Zakim, ??P1 is me
  146. # [23:08] <Zakim> +smaug; got it
  147. # [23:10] <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html
  148. # [23:10] <shepazu> chair: shepazu
  149. # [23:10] <shepazu> scribeNick: MSJacob
  150. # [23:12] <MSJacob> topic: Deprecate DOMActivate
  151. # [23:14] <MSJacob> shepazu: seen content w/ DOMFocusIn and DOMFocusOut, if we can get SVG implementors to say it's ok to deprecate these, I would say that the SVG spec could (a) add an errata that says authors should use DOM3 Events focus and blur events
  152. # [23:15] <MSJacob> shepazu: problem is that adding features to a recommendation is not supposed to happen, but that may not be what is needed
  153. # [23:15] <MSJacob> shepazu: we could probably get away with simply noting a suggestion to use D3E focus/blur events
  154. # [23:16] <MSJacob> shepazu: content could be updated
  155. # [23:16] <MSJacob> shepazu: I'll bring this up with SVG wg next week
  156. # [23:16] * Joins: dand (danilatos@124.170.151.101)
  157. # [23:17] <dand> gday
  158. # [23:18] <MSJacob> shepazu: what about content not working in the browsers? but if this is what browser implementors want, then this is probably the best solution
  159. # [23:18] <dand> zakim, info
  160. # [23:18] <Zakim> I don't understand 'info', dand
  161. # [23:19] <dand> zakim, what's the number :P
  162. # [23:19] <Zakim> I don't understand 'what's the number :P', dand
  163. # [23:19] <smaug> +1.617.761.6200
  164. # [23:19] <smaug> 3663
  165. # [23:21] <dand> cheers
  166. # [23:21] <MSJacob> shepazu: I'm concerned if people remove DOMActivate, there may be content that breaks
  167. # [23:22] <Zakim> +??P2
  168. # [23:22] <smaug> Zakim, ??P2 is dand
  169. # [23:22] <Zakim> +dand; got it
  170. # [23:24] <shepazu> Topic: InputMode
  171. # [23:24] <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-Events-TextEvent
  172. # [23:26] <MSJacob> MSJacob: What can input mode multimodal be used for?
  173. # [23:26] * Quits: gsnedders_ (gsnedders@83.252.197.10) (Quit: gsnedders_)
  174. # [23:26] <MSJacob> shepazu: combos of input methods (ex, voice "meet me here" then click on a map)
  175. # [23:28] <MSJacob> smaug: What is DOM_INPUT_METHOD_OPTION?
  176. # [23:28] <MSJacob> shepazu: select an option and it generates a text event (ex, xforms)
  177. # [23:29] <MSJacob> MSJacob: What about script-generated text inputs?
  178. # [23:30] <MSJacob> shepazu: I considered DOM_INPUT_SCRIPT, but that seems less descriptive. But thinking further, I might want to add it. What do other people think?
  179. # [23:31] <MSJacob> MSJacob: Test automation is free to fire textInput with whatever inputMethod it wants. But simply generating a text insertion via script should probably have its own input method.
  180. # [23:32] <MSJacob> smaug: No particular opinion.
  181. # [23:32] <MSJacob> shepazu: I'
  182. # [23:32] <MSJacob> shepazu: I'll add it in and we'll see.
  183. # [23:32] * smaug kicks the 3G connection
  184. # [23:32] <shepazu> Topic: focusin, focusout
  185. # [23:33] <MSJacob> shepazu: I added them in but I might deprecate them.
  186. # [23:33] <MSJacob> smaug: Add it and deprecate it? why?
  187. # [23:35] <MSJacob> shepazu: Included to provide context for supporting IE, but deprecated.
  188. # [23:36] <MSJacob> MSJacob: Including it simply for documentation of IE7/8 support doesn't make sense since IE doesn't support DOM events. But if they solve a different scenario, then they should be included.
  189. # [23:37] * Quits: tlr-afk (tlr@128.30.52.30) (Quit: tlr-afk)
  190. # [23:37] <MSJacob> MSJacob: I may have usage data for sites in IE8 that I can send out.
  191. # [23:37] <shepazu> Topic: mouseenter, mouseleave
  192. # [23:38] <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-event-mouseenter
  193. # [23:39] <annevk> (link doesn't work)
  194. # [23:40] <annevk> (btw, I read that text earlier today and I'm not sure event target is the term you want to use, isn't it about the node the listener is registered on?)
  195. # [23:40] <MSJacob> MSJacob: I think there's significant asks for this on the web. Specifically, the best argument is they are the equivelant of :hover pseudo-class.
  196. # [23:42] <MSJacob> smaug: the wording may not be exactly correct.
  197. # [23:43] <MSJacob> MSJacob: yes, the "propagation path must end at the event target element" is not exactly accurate
  198. # [23:44] <MSJacob> shepazu: we should have a more detailed discussion on the mailing list
  199. # [23:44] <MSJacob> topic: What next for the spec?
  200. # [23:44] <MSJacob> shepazu: composition events, and detail of keyboard event behaviors
  201. # [23:45] <MSJacob> shepazu: no meeting next week, I'm out of town
  202. # [23:47] <MSJacob> dand: still some open issues with composition events
  203. # [23:48] <MSJacob> dand: some proposed API solutions, but not 100% sure....requires more discussion
  204. # [23:48] <MSJacob> shepazu: I'll put this in the spec and we'll keep on discussing
  205. # [23:49] <MSJacob> shepazu: maybe I'll make a wiki page that people can edit for open issues
  206. # [23:50] <MSJacob> shepazu: I've been talking to wacom about influencing tablet/touch events
  207. # [23:52] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  208. # [23:52] <Zakim> -dand
  209. # [23:52] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  210. # [23:52] <shepazu> trackbot, stop telcon
  211. # [23:52] <trackbot> Sorry, shepazu, I don't understand 'trackbot, stop telcon'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  212. # [23:52] <shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
  213. # [23:52] * trackbot is ending a teleconference
  214. # [23:52] <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
  215. # [23:52] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been [Microsoft], Shepazu, smaug, dand
  216. # [23:52] <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  217. # [23:52] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
  218. # [23:52] <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
  219. # [23:52] * Quits: dand (danilatos@124.170.151.101) (Quit: dand)
  220. # [23:52] <RRSAgent> I see no action items
  221. # [23:52] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  222. # [23:52] <Zakim> -smaug
  223. # [23:52] <Zakim> IA_WebApps(DOM3)5:00PM has ended
  224. # [23:52] <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], Shepazu, smaug, dand
  225. # [23:55] * Quits: smaug (chatzilla@80.186.55.77) (Ping timeout)
  226. # Session Close: Thu Jul 30 00:00:00 2009

The end :)