/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2009-09-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 24 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #webapps
  3. # [00:00] <chaals> ... will note that parsers may only deal with characters up to a certain range.
  4. # [00:00] <chaals> RESOLUTION: Change keyIdentifier to key and keyLocation to location (and see if it breaks anything)
  5. # [00:00] <shepazu> topic: feature detection and fallbacks (featurestrings?)
  6. # [00:01] <chaals> DS: I am sympathetic to Garrett's call for feature detection for feautures, but not sure how to do it and have seen resistance from browers
  7. # [00:01] <chaals> OP: Would be great but I ahven't seen a reasonable proposal and don't have a good one.
  8. # [00:02] <chaals> DS: You could get this by defining feature strings for each event (e.g. hasFeature('events#wheel')
  9. # [00:02] <chaals> ... would not be backwartds compatible, but could be a basis for moving forward
  10. # [00:02] <chaals> OP: would not work with greasemonkey scripts or similar
  11. # [00:02] * chaals missed the reason
  12. # [00:03] <chaals> [scribe missed reasoning]
  13. # [00:03] <chaals> DS: True. Nor plugins, unless you build in a way for a script to register an event type.
  14. # [00:03] <smaug> the reason mentioned on the mailing few weeks ago
  15. # [00:03] <chaals> ... but even so, most browsers won't have extensions/plugins/... that add event functionality
  16. # [00:04] <chaals> ... that have to be sent to the browser.
  17. # [00:04] <chaals> ... seems like having it would be better than nothing if browsers supporte it moving forward?
  18. # [00:05] <chaals> TL: From a binary standpoint, IE has two ways of hooking events. An event sync (which we are removing for performance), and a connection point interface, used for the control to fire its own events into the browser
  19. # [00:06] <chaals> ... it is more like a callback system. no event is sent, you use addEventListener to register a name you know, and when you throw your event we map your name to your callback. Those events neve collide with system events.
  20. # [00:06] * Quits: heycam (cam@210.84.32.112) (Quit: bye)
  21. # [00:06] <chaals> ... until we get HTML+JS extensibility model there is no need to know what events you support
  22. # [00:07] <chaals> DS: even failing for browser extensions of various kinds, the number of authors served by saying "does this browser support foo? Or should I fall back to older behaviour?"
  23. # [00:07] <chaals> ... planning to write a script library for D3E (as far as possible)
  24. # [00:08] <chaals> ... so people can code to it no matter what their browser. Detecting if a browser claimed to support something would be really useful.
  25. # [00:08] <chaals> OP: Could be useful in some cases
  26. # [00:08] <chaals> DS: It won't be universally useful - will be false +ve and -ve but I will go ahead and put in feature strings for each event.
  27. # [00:08] <chaals> ack me
  28. # [00:08] * Zakim unmutes chaals
  29. # [00:08] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  30. # [00:10] <chaals> CMN: The argument against it is that as you get into a wider range of browsers and browser types, the value drops below the cost.
  31. # [00:11] <chaals> DS: If we have a specific means to detect stuff, and a browser lies, there is a rationale to call them out in public and say stop that.
  32. # [00:11] <chaals> q+
  33. # [00:11] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  34. # [00:12] <chaals> DS: If you do this by event type, there is a much wider range of useful information that comes from the feature string tha if it is from an interface.
  35. # [00:12] <chaals> ... there will be failures, but there always are
  36. # [00:13] <chaals> TL: THe difference is that existing object level detection is already fine grained with property checking. Events don't have a property in the same way
  37. # [00:13] <chaals> zakim, mute me
  38. # [00:13] <Zakim> chaals should now be muted
  39. # [00:13] <chaals> ... seems like there is value in having one API that tells you something about the UA, and lets you detect features.
  40. # [00:14] <chaals> ... browsers have hasFeature, and if you get a useful answer that's ok, but if you get a false +/-ve then you do what you are already doing going into deeper testing.
  41. # [00:14] <chaals> DS: Doesn't help with code paths but helps with building script libraries etc.
  42. # [00:14] <chaals> TL: Doing this will be useful over time.
  43. # [00:15] <chaals> DS: The mistake in SVG was to make the hasFeature too coarse-grained, so it was too hard to use it efficiently.
  44. # [00:16] <chaals> ... now we want to support it at the attribute-for-an-element level.
  45. # [00:16] <chaals> ... it isn't like you need to store a bunch of strings, just know that when you implement a new event you expose it to hasFeature. They are compositional
  46. # [00:16] <chaals> ... so I will put that in, and we will see what happens
  47. # [00:16] <chaals> ack me
  48. # [00:16] * Zakim unmutes chaals
  49. # [00:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  50. # [00:18] <chaals> RESOLUTION: We will add per-event-type feature string algorithm, and see what happens.
  51. # [00:19] <chaals> zakim, mute me
  52. # [00:19] <Zakim> chaals should now be muted
  53. # [00:19] <chaals> DS: If something answers hasFeature to blah then it is clear it is the IE IE model
  54. # [00:19] <chaals> ack me
  55. # [00:19] * Zakim unmutes chaals
  56. # [00:19] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  57. # [00:19] <chaals> Topic: TPAC
  58. # [00:20] <chaals> CMN: When people register, it woudl be really helpful to say whether you are going for widgets or APIs since the WG is split into two rooms.
  59. # [00:22] <chaals> Topic: Resize event
  60. # [00:22] <chaals> TL: OP, you were thinking about the event not bubbling...
  61. # [00:23] <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/mid/6eeb8bd10906241911l191c6710va55d7ddbd86399f7@mail.gmail.com
  62. # [00:23] <shepazu> [[
  63. # [00:23] <shepazu> Another important thing to remember is that onresize does not bubble.
  64. # [00:23] <chaals> ... we were talking about not letting it target element. Events for arbitrary elements should not be allowed to bubble... (and for window it doesn't make much difference)
  65. # [00:23] <shepazu> ]]
  66. # [00:23] <chaals> ... or keeping it as is but removing elementTarget
  67. # [00:23] <chaals> OP: and add somethig new for elements?
  68. # [00:23] <chaals> TL: yeah, in a later spec.
  69. # [00:24] <chaals> zakim, mute me
  70. # [00:24] <Zakim> chaals should now be muted
  71. # [00:25] <chaals> OP: So when resize fires on IE at document, does it go to document or window?
  72. # [00:25] <chaals> TL: body, I think...
  73. # [00:25] <chaals> OP: What if body element is resized but not the document?
  74. # [00:25] <chaals> TL: then I think we fire it.
  75. # [00:25] <chaals> OP: thnking of making a similar mess to load event...
  76. # [00:26] <chaals> TL: If we need that for existing site compat it would probably be the best. I haven't tried it
  77. # [00:26] <chaals> DS: Should we say resize does not bubble?
  78. # [00:26] <chaals> OP: OK with that
  79. # [00:27] <chaals> TL: if we do that we might need to do the load-like magic... maybe
  80. # [00:27] <chaals> DS: Maybe I have general text that says some events for legacy reasons have different flow and these will be noted in the host language
  81. # [00:27] <chaals> OP: Currently that is just load
  82. # [00:27] <chaals> DS: Might be resize too
  83. # [00:27] <chaals> OP: What about just making resize not bubble. What will break?
  84. # [00:28] <chaals> DS: OK, fine by me.
  85. # [00:28] <chaals> ... I should still allow the odd event flow for load, which can defer to HTML5
  86. # [00:28] <chaals> ack me
  87. # [00:28] * Zakim unmutes chaals
  88. # [00:28] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  89. # [00:29] <chaals> RESOLUTION: resize will not bubble
  90. # [00:29] <chaals> Topic: Meeting time
  91. # [00:29] <chaals> DS: This time is not so good for Smaug, Chaals. Could we move it a couple of hours earlier?
  92. # [00:30] <chaals> OP: 3 hours earlier was good.
  93. # [00:30] <chaals> TL: that's fine.
  94. # [00:30] <chaals> CMN: That's better than 2 hours earlier for me.
  95. # [00:35] <Zakim> -travis
  96. # [00:35] <Zakim> -smaug
  97. # [00:35] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  98. # [00:35] <Zakim> -chaals
  99. # [00:35] <Zakim> IA_WebApps(DOM3)5:00PM has ended
  100. # [00:35] <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, mauro, chaals, smaug, travis
  101. # [00:37] <smaug> "mauro" :)
  102. # [00:38] <shepazu> heh
  103. # [00:38] <shepazu> trackbot, stop telcon
  104. # [00:38] <trackbot> Sorry, shepazu, I don't understand 'trackbot, stop telcon'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
  105. # [00:38] <shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
  106. # [00:38] * trackbot is ending a teleconference
  107. # [00:38] <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
  108. # [00:38] <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
  109. # [00:38] <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  110. # [00:38] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
  111. # [00:38] <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
  112. # [00:38] <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-webapps-actions.rdf :
  113. # [00:38] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Doug to post something to the list on focusin/out and mouseenter/leave on event names [1]
  114. # [00:38] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-webapps-irc#T21-42-09
  115. # [00:38] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  116. # [00:46] * chaals thanks Doug for doing the windup
  117. # [00:46] * shepazu nods
  118. # [00:46] <shepazu> thanks for attending and scribing today, chaals
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  122. # [01:17] * chaals waves to heycam
  123. # [01:17] <heycam> hi chaals
  124. # [01:30] * Parts: chaals (chaals@212.251.243.170)
  125. # [01:31] <heycam> "RESOLUTION: Drop namespaced events" :-)
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  145. # [08:29] <shepazu> heycam: and now they are dropped from the spec
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  147. # [10:23] * anne makes a tiny dance
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  149. # [11:27] <anne> shepazu, I guess I should check the spec, but I haven't yet; did you also remove the NCName restriction?
  150. # [11:29] <shepazu> anne, yes, but I didn't look too deeply into what to replace it with... for now, it's a case-sensitive DOMString with no spaces
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  158. # [12:06] <anne> shepazu, sounds good
  159. # [12:07] <anne> shepazu, should prolly check a few contexts where events are used to see what makes the most sense
  160. # [12:07] <shepazu> anne: well... I'm not sure about that... it probably needs refining
  161. # [12:07] <shepazu> yes
  162. # [12:07] <anne> e.g. XBL 2.0 and EventSource
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  209. # Session Close: Fri Sep 25 00:00:00 2009

The end :)