/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2010-04-07 / end
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- # Session Ident: #webapps
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- # [20:05] <shepazu> trackbot, start telcon
- # [20:05] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference
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- # [20:05] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-webapps-irc
- # [20:05] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
- # [20:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
- # [20:05] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
- # [20:05] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
- # [20:05] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
- # [20:05] <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
- # [20:05] <trackbot> Date: 07 April 2010
- # [20:05] <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu
- # [20:05] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
- # [20:05] <Zakim> IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM has now started
- # [20:05] <Zakim> +Shepazu
- # [20:06] <Zakim> +??P2
- # [20:06] <smaug> Zakim, ??P2 is Olli_Pettay
- # [20:06] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
- # [20:07] <smaug> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=556493
- # [20:08] <Zakim> -Shepazu
- # [20:08] <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu
- # [20:08] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
- # [20:08] <Zakim> +Shepazu
- # [20:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
- # [20:09] * Joins: Travis (836b0069@128.30.52.43)
- # [20:11] <smaug> Travis: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=556493
- # [20:11] <Travis> Scribe: Travis
- # [20:11] <Travis> ScribeNick: Travis
- # [20:12] <Travis> Topic: Click issue
- # [20:14] <Travis> smaug: if mousedown happens in different node then the mouseup event, then the click event does not fire.
- # [20:14] <Travis> ... This is underspecified today.
- # [20:15] <Travis> ... One of the nodes (the mousedown) is a textnode.
- # [20:16] <Travis> shepazu: From accessibility point-of-view, not firing click can be problemantic, especially if there is considerable mouse shaking/movement.
- # [20:18] <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-mouseevent-event-order
- # [20:19] <Travis> The bug reproduction is here: https://bug556493.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=436452
- # [20:24] <Travis> shepazu: We can add an example to section 5.2.3.2 under the click event to clarify the sentence "The click event may be preceded by the mousedown and mouseup events on the same element"
- # [20:24] <Travis> Travis: IE8 and 9 do not manifest this bug.
- # [20:25] <shepazu> Action: shepazu to add an example to section 5.2.3.2 under the click event to clarify the sentence "The click event may be preceded by the mousedown and mouseup events on the same element"
- # [20:25] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [20:25] * RRSAgent records action 1
- # [20:25] <trackbot> Created ACTION-516 - Add an example to section 5.2.3.2 under the click event to clarify the sentence "The click event may be preceded by the mousedown and mouseup events on the same element" [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-04-14].
- # [20:25] <Travis> shepazu: Everyone in agreement then?
- # [20:25] <Travis> smaug: Yes.
- # [20:25] <Travis> Travis: Yes.
- # [20:26] <Travis> Topic: i18n
- # [20:26] <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JanMar/0051.html
- # [20:28] <Travis> Travis: I agree with the points 2-4 in full.
- # [20:29] <Travis> smaug: Yes, I also agree with those.
- # [20:29] <Travis> ... What are the other comments?
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- # [20:33] <Travis> Travis: Does this impact DocumentEvent:convertKeyValue?
- # [20:41] <Travis> shepazu: Not directly, but I was hoping for some review on this from i18n...
- # [20:43] <Travis> ... convertKeyValue is generic; it takes any string (e.g, "U+571", "{", etc.) and converts to any of the four output key types.
- # [20:44] <Travis> ... It has utility, but DOM Events may not be the right time/place for this API.
- # [20:45] <Travis> ... Example, could provide "DEL" and it would spit out the delete character key (in unicode or some other format).
- # [20:45] <Travis> Travis: From a testing perspective, this might be hard to effectively test because of the large class of inputs/outputs.
- # [20:46] <Travis> shepazu: I think I will go ahead and drop this API from the spec.
- # [20:46] <Travis> Resolution: Drop convertKeyValue from DOM Events
- # [20:47] <Travis> Topic: DOM Views
- # [20:47] <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9336
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- # [20:49] <Travis> Travis: This seems to center around our UIEvent having a "view" property
- # [20:49] <smaug> http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-DOM-Level-2-Views-20001113/views.html
- # [20:50] <Travis> shepazu: Implementors implement the view as a Window.
- # [20:51] <kenneth> smaug, there has been some talk about moving vm-i (view mode interface from Widgets 1.0) to CSSOM, so maybe the viewMode property should be moved to DOM-Level-2-Views?
- # [20:52] <smaug> kenneth: move something to DOM-Level-2-Views?
- # [20:52] <smaug> that is a very old spec
- # [20:52] <kenneth> is there a newer spec for dom views?
- # [20:52] <smaug> no
- # [20:53] <Travis> shepazu: In the glossary (section 2) the definition of defaultView seems very adaquate and addresses the concept of window as we read in the feedback.
- # [20:55] <kenneth> smaug, ah there is the http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Views/
- # [20:57] <smaug> kenneth: I doubt anyone has worked on that Note for ages
- # [20:57] <Travis> Action: smaug Ask for rationale on UIEvent "view" property feedback and send to www-dom and public-html
- # [20:57] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [20:57] * RRSAgent records action 2
- # [20:57] <trackbot> Created ACTION-517 - Ask for rationale on UIEvent "view" property feedback and send to www-dom and public-html [on Olli Pettay - due 2010-04-14].
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- # [21:11] <smaug> http://limi.net/articles/resource-packages
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- # [21:15] <shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
- # [21:15] * trackbot is ending a teleconference
- # [21:15] <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
- # [21:15] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Shepazu, Olli_Pettay, [Microsoft]
- # [21:15] <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- # [21:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
- # [21:15] <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
- # [21:15] <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-webapps-actions.rdf :
- # [21:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: shepazu to add an example to section 5.2.3.2 under the click event to clarify the sentence "The click event may be preceded by the mousedown and mouseup events on the same element" [1]
- # [21:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-webapps-irc#T18-23-09
- # [21:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: smaug Ask for rationale on UIEvent "view" property feedback and send to www-dom and public-html [2]
- # [21:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-webapps-irc#T18-55-11
- # [21:15] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
- # [21:15] <anne> euhm, views is dead
- # [21:16] <anne> UIEvent.view should prolly be kept around for legacy reasons and just return the global object
- # [21:16] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
- # [21:16] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
- # [21:16] <Zakim> -Shepazu
- # [21:16] <Zakim> IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM has ended
- # [21:16] <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, Olli_Pettay, [Microsoft]
- # [21:16] <Travis> Anne: yeah, we were thinking the same thing.
- # [21:16] <anne> though it should be done in such a way that also works for Workers
- # [21:17] <anne> actually, i guess you don't have ui events there
- # [21:17] <anne> initially my idea was that CSSOM View would obsolete views but now HTML5 does
- # [21:18] <anne> makes more sense to me that HTML5 does it given that it also defines the global object at this point
- # [21:23] <smaug> anne: I don't want D3E to depend on HTML5
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- # [21:24] <smaug> and the interfaces in D2V are trivial
- # [21:24] <smaug> so should cause major harm to just refer to defaultView in D3E
- # [21:24] <smaug> shouldn't cause
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- # [21:31] <anne> but D2V is obsolete
- # [21:33] <anne> you could just remove the 'view' attribute from UIEvent and have HTML5 define it using [Supplemental]
- # [21:34] <smaug> removing the attribute from UIEvent wouldn't be backwards compatible
- # [21:35] <anne> it would if HTML5 defined it
- # [21:35] <anne> it just removes the need for D3E to reference HTML5
- # [21:36] <smaug> and how would some non-HTML5 implementation use D3E?
- # [21:36] <anne> they wouldn't need to worry about view
- # [21:39] <smaug> so mysteriously Java implementation wouldn't have getView anymore?
- # [21:39] <smaug> or would need to refer to D2E in that case
- # [21:39] <anne> btw, Lucas Adamski in that WebSockets bug seems somewhat misinformed; there's a handshake in -75 too
- # [21:40] <anne> yeah
- # [21:40] <smaug> anne: I didn't read it that way. I thought he was talking about the different handshake
- # [21:40] <smaug> but I'll add a comment to the bug
- # [21:40] <anne> no need if I'm wrong
- # [21:41] <anne> I'm not really sure why anyone would want getView given that it's useless
- # [21:41] <smaug> that is not the point
- # [21:41] <smaug> the point is backwards compatibility
- # [21:42] <smaug> also in case of binary languages
- # [21:42] <smaug> where linking libraries does matter
- # [21:42] <anne> how does that even work if the interfaces mutate all the time?
- # [21:42] <smaug> anne: why does HTML5 need to take .defaultView from D2V?
- # [21:42] <smaug> why can't D2V just define it?
- # [21:43] <anne> because what D2V defines is gone
- # [21:43] <anne> and the additional interfaces are not needed either
- # [21:43] <smaug> the APIs aren't gone
- # [21:44] <anne> the members not, no, but they return something of a different type now
- # [21:45] <smaug> really?
- # [21:45] <smaug> Gecko sure has DocumentView interface
- # [21:45] <smaug> and AbstractView
- # [21:45] <anne> I think you're alone in that
- # [21:46] <anne> both are undefined in Chrome and Opera anyway
- # [21:46] <anne> and nobody implements views, so D2V is problematic regardless
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- # [21:47] <smaug> I can't really see the problem
- # [21:48] <smaug> other than D2V being rather useless
- # [21:48] <anne> the problem is that people might try to implement it while we already know it's not going to happen
- # [21:49] <smaug> implement what?
- # [21:49] <smaug> D2V interfaces?
- # [21:49] <anne> D2V
- # [21:49] <anne> and the interfaces too, yeah
- # [21:49] <smaug> those interfaces are trivial, so wouldn't cause too much harm to implement them
- # [21:49] <anne> I don't see any reason to do so to be honest
- # [21:50] <anne> would be rather pointless
- # [21:50] <smaug> there is one really nice, practical reason. Specifications can refer to .defaultView without the need to refer to HTML5 (which will stay pretty unstable for a long time)
- # [21:52] <anne> and that's why we should implement those interfaces? euh...
- # [21:52] <smaug> implementing those interfaces is like, 6 lines of code
- # [21:53] <anne> if that's the whole problem you could just publish a spec that defines interface Window {} and say that the global object in ECMAScript is represented by it or something
- # [21:53] <anne> smaug, it's still pointless, especially if the reason is spec writing
- # [21:53] <anne> makes no sense at all to me
- # [21:53] <smaug> and makes no sense at all to me to move .defaultView to HTML5
- # [21:53] <anne> it's pretty much routing around the actual problem
- # [21:54] <anne> why not? HTML5 defines the whole global object document relationship
- # [21:54] <anne> there's no other spec that does that
- # [21:55] <smaug> HTML5 could just say that Window implements AbstractView and from that one can access .document
- # [21:56] <anne> a) gives redundant interfaces b) keeps D2V alive including its views concept that nobody implements
- # [21:56] <Hixie> if someone could take hte Window stuff out of HTML, I'd be most happy
- # [21:57] <Hixie> but i agree with anne that there's no point just taking out defaultView
- # [21:57] <anne> let me agree with you then that I'm also hoping for a volunteer :)
- # [21:57] <smaug> I'd be happy if Window could be taken out from HTML5 to some reasonable stable spec
- # [21:58] <Hixie> i think all ofus would
- # [21:58] * ArtB wonders if smaug just volunteered himself :-)
- # [21:58] <Hixie> it's a multiyear fulltime job for someone who's not already up to speed editing specs, imho
- # [21:58] <smaug> ArtB: noooo! :)
- # [21:59] <Hixie> (it's about half of my work editing html5)
- # [22:01] <gsnedders> We should just get rid of the Window interfacd
- # [22:01] <gsnedders> *interface
- # [22:02] <anne> or just say defaultView returns any
- # [22:02] <anne> euh, I meant view
- # [22:02] <anne> anyways, D3E also depends on Web IDL and that does not seem quite ready either
- # [22:04] <smaug> Hmm, does D3E really use WebIDL?
- # [22:05] <smaug> it refers to OMG IDL
- # [22:07] <anne> it should
- # [22:11] <shepazu> DOM3 Events doesn't depend on Web IDL, because it's not baked yet
- # [22:12] <shepazu> I will probably make informative Web ISL bindings, but DOM3 Events is simply using OMG IDL
- # [22:15] <Hixie> we'll need something that defines how JS prototypes get set up for the EventTarget interface, if nothing else
- # [22:15] <Hixie> easiest way to do that is to defer to Web IDL, but it's fine if DOM3 Events just defines it itself too
- # [22:18] <shepazu> Hixie: could you please send a clarification email to www-dom about that, then?
- # [22:18] <Hixie> i'll add doing so to my todo list
- # [22:21] <shepazu> to be honest, I'm not sure what you mean by "defines how JS prototypes get set up for the EventTarget interface"
- # [22:21] <smaug> Uh, I need to review what Web IDL says about event target
- # [22:22] <smaug> last time I read it, it wasn't doing quite the right thing, IIRC
- # [22:23] <ArtB> action: barstow try to find an Editor for Web IDL spec and push it forward
- # [22:23] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
- # [22:23] <trackbot> Created ACTION-518 - Try to find an Editor for Web IDL spec and push it forward [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-04-14].
- # [22:26] <anne> fwiw, I believe Sam is still on it
- # [22:28] <ArtB> anne, that would be good. The last formal pub was Dec 2008
- # [22:29] <shepazu> and the last editor's draft was 30 September 2009
- # [22:29] <shepazu> that's not a very good sign
- # [22:29] <ArtB> I'll use this action as a reminder to chase Sam
- # [22:30] <anne> I spoke him in person last week
- # [22:31] <anne> guess the problem is he cannot do it fulltime
- # [22:32] <ArtB> good to know Anne; perhaps what we need then is someone to work with him
- # [22:32] * Quits: ArtB (chatzilla@192.100.124.219) (Quit: Happy trails ...)
- # [23:19] * Quits: smaug (chatzilla@82.181.150.24) (Ping timeout)
- # [23:26] * Joins: smaug (chatzilla@82.181.150.24)
- # [23:37] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
- # [23:37] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
- # [23:45] * Quits: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15) (Connection reset by peer)
- # Session Close: Thu Apr 08 00:00:00 2010
The end :)