/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2010-04-07 / end

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  86. # [20:05] <shepazu> trackbot, start telcon
  87. # [20:05] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference
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  89. # [20:05] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-webapps-irc
  90. # [20:05] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  91. # [20:05] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  92. # [20:05] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  93. # [20:05] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
  94. # [20:05] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
  95. # [20:05] <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
  96. # [20:05] <trackbot> Date: 07 April 2010
  97. # [20:05] <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu
  98. # [20:05] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  99. # [20:05] <Zakim> IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM has now started
  100. # [20:05] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  101. # [20:06] <Zakim> +??P2
  102. # [20:06] <smaug> Zakim, ??P2 is Olli_Pettay
  103. # [20:06] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
  104. # [20:07] <smaug> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=556493
  105. # [20:08] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  106. # [20:08] <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu
  107. # [20:08] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  108. # [20:08] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  109. # [20:09] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  110. # [20:09] * Joins: Travis (836b0069@128.30.52.43)
  111. # [20:11] <smaug> Travis: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=556493
  112. # [20:11] <Travis> Scribe: Travis
  113. # [20:11] <Travis> ScribeNick: Travis
  114. # [20:12] <Travis> Topic: Click issue
  115. # [20:14] <Travis> smaug: if mousedown happens in different node then the mouseup event, then the click event does not fire.
  116. # [20:14] <Travis> ... This is underspecified today.
  117. # [20:15] <Travis> ... One of the nodes (the mousedown) is a textnode.
  118. # [20:16] <Travis> shepazu: From accessibility point-of-view, not firing click can be problemantic, especially if there is considerable mouse shaking/movement.
  119. # [20:18] <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html#events-mouseevent-event-order
  120. # [20:19] <Travis> The bug reproduction is here: https://bug556493.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=436452
  121. # [20:24] <Travis> shepazu: We can add an example to section 5.2.3.2 under the click event to clarify the sentence "The click event may be preceded by the mousedown and mouseup events on the same element"
  122. # [20:24] <Travis> Travis: IE8 and 9 do not manifest this bug.
  123. # [20:25] <shepazu> Action: shepazu to add an example to section 5.2.3.2 under the click event to clarify the sentence "The click event may be preceded by the mousedown and mouseup events on the same element"
  124. # [20:25] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  125. # [20:25] * RRSAgent records action 1
  126. # [20:25] <trackbot> Created ACTION-516 - Add an example to section 5.2.3.2 under the click event to clarify the sentence "The click event may be preceded by the mousedown and mouseup events on the same element" [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-04-14].
  127. # [20:25] <Travis> shepazu: Everyone in agreement then?
  128. # [20:25] <Travis> smaug: Yes.
  129. # [20:25] <Travis> Travis: Yes.
  130. # [20:26] <Travis> Topic: i18n
  131. # [20:26] <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JanMar/0051.html
  132. # [20:28] <Travis> Travis: I agree with the points 2-4 in full.
  133. # [20:29] <Travis> smaug: Yes, I also agree with those.
  134. # [20:29] <Travis> ... What are the other comments?
  135. # [20:32] * Quits: paul_iri_ (paul_irish@12.33.239.250) (Client exited)
  136. # [20:33] <Travis> Travis: Does this impact DocumentEvent:convertKeyValue?
  137. # [20:41] <Travis> shepazu: Not directly, but I was hoping for some review on this from i18n...
  138. # [20:43] <Travis> ... convertKeyValue is generic; it takes any string (e.g, "U+571", "&#123", etc.) and converts to any of the four output key types.
  139. # [20:44] <Travis> ... It has utility, but DOM Events may not be the right time/place for this API.
  140. # [20:45] <Travis> ... Example, could provide "DEL" and it would spit out the delete character key (in unicode or some other format).
  141. # [20:45] <Travis> Travis: From a testing perspective, this might be hard to effectively test because of the large class of inputs/outputs.
  142. # [20:46] <Travis> shepazu: I think I will go ahead and drop this API from the spec.
  143. # [20:46] <Travis> Resolution: Drop convertKeyValue from DOM Events
  144. # [20:47] <Travis> Topic: DOM Views
  145. # [20:47] <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9336
  146. # [20:48] * Joins: Lachy (Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  147. # [20:49] <Travis> Travis: This seems to center around our UIEvent having a "view" property
  148. # [20:49] <smaug> http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-DOM-Level-2-Views-20001113/views.html
  149. # [20:50] <Travis> shepazu: Implementors implement the view as a Window.
  150. # [20:51] <kenneth> smaug, there has been some talk about moving vm-i (view mode interface from Widgets 1.0) to CSSOM, so maybe the viewMode property should be moved to DOM-Level-2-Views?
  151. # [20:52] <smaug> kenneth: move something to DOM-Level-2-Views?
  152. # [20:52] <smaug> that is a very old spec
  153. # [20:52] <kenneth> is there a newer spec for dom views?
  154. # [20:52] <smaug> no
  155. # [20:53] <Travis> shepazu: In the glossary (section 2) the definition of defaultView seems very adaquate and addresses the concept of window as we read in the feedback.
  156. # [20:55] <kenneth> smaug, ah there is the http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Views/
  157. # [20:57] <smaug> kenneth: I doubt anyone has worked on that Note for ages
  158. # [20:57] <Travis> Action: smaug Ask for rationale on UIEvent "view" property feedback and send to www-dom and public-html
  159. # [20:57] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  160. # [20:57] * RRSAgent records action 2
  161. # [20:57] <trackbot> Created ACTION-517 - Ask for rationale on UIEvent "view" property feedback and send to www-dom and public-html [on Olli Pettay - due 2010-04-14].
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  163. # [21:11] <smaug> http://limi.net/articles/resource-packages
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  165. # [21:15] <shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
  166. # [21:15] * trackbot is ending a teleconference
  167. # [21:15] <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
  168. # [21:15] <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Shepazu, Olli_Pettay, [Microsoft]
  169. # [21:15] <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  170. # [21:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
  171. # [21:15] <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
  172. # [21:15] <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-webapps-actions.rdf :
  173. # [21:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: shepazu to add an example to section 5.2.3.2 under the click event to clarify the sentence "The click event may be preceded by the mousedown and mouseup events on the same element" [1]
  174. # [21:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-webapps-irc#T18-23-09
  175. # [21:15] <RRSAgent> ACTION: smaug Ask for rationale on UIEvent "view" property feedback and send to www-dom and public-html [2]
  176. # [21:15] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-webapps-irc#T18-55-11
  177. # [21:15] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  178. # [21:15] <anne> euhm, views is dead
  179. # [21:16] <anne> UIEvent.view should prolly be kept around for legacy reasons and just return the global object
  180. # [21:16] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  181. # [21:16] <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
  182. # [21:16] <Zakim> -Shepazu
  183. # [21:16] <Zakim> IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM has ended
  184. # [21:16] <Zakim> Attendees were Shepazu, Olli_Pettay, [Microsoft]
  185. # [21:16] <Travis> Anne: yeah, we were thinking the same thing.
  186. # [21:16] <anne> though it should be done in such a way that also works for Workers
  187. # [21:17] <anne> actually, i guess you don't have ui events there
  188. # [21:17] <anne> initially my idea was that CSSOM View would obsolete views but now HTML5 does
  189. # [21:18] <anne> makes more sense to me that HTML5 does it given that it also defines the global object at this point
  190. # [21:23] <smaug> anne: I don't want D3E to depend on HTML5
  191. # [21:24] * Quits: Travis (836b0069@128.30.52.43) (Quit: CGI:IRC)
  192. # [21:24] <smaug> and the interfaces in D2V are trivial
  193. # [21:24] <smaug> so should cause major harm to just refer to defaultView in D3E
  194. # [21:24] <smaug> shouldn't cause
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  198. # [21:31] <anne> but D2V is obsolete
  199. # [21:33] <anne> you could just remove the 'view' attribute from UIEvent and have HTML5 define it using [Supplemental]
  200. # [21:34] <smaug> removing the attribute from UIEvent wouldn't be backwards compatible
  201. # [21:35] <anne> it would if HTML5 defined it
  202. # [21:35] <anne> it just removes the need for D3E to reference HTML5
  203. # [21:36] <smaug> and how would some non-HTML5 implementation use D3E?
  204. # [21:36] <anne> they wouldn't need to worry about view
  205. # [21:39] <smaug> so mysteriously Java implementation wouldn't have getView anymore?
  206. # [21:39] <smaug> or would need to refer to D2E in that case
  207. # [21:39] <anne> btw, Lucas Adamski in that WebSockets bug seems somewhat misinformed; there's a handshake in -75 too
  208. # [21:40] <anne> yeah
  209. # [21:40] <smaug> anne: I didn't read it that way. I thought he was talking about the different handshake
  210. # [21:40] <smaug> but I'll add a comment to the bug
  211. # [21:40] <anne> no need if I'm wrong
  212. # [21:41] <anne> I'm not really sure why anyone would want getView given that it's useless
  213. # [21:41] <smaug> that is not the point
  214. # [21:41] <smaug> the point is backwards compatibility
  215. # [21:42] <smaug> also in case of binary languages
  216. # [21:42] <smaug> where linking libraries does matter
  217. # [21:42] <anne> how does that even work if the interfaces mutate all the time?
  218. # [21:42] <smaug> anne: why does HTML5 need to take .defaultView from D2V?
  219. # [21:42] <smaug> why can't D2V just define it?
  220. # [21:43] <anne> because what D2V defines is gone
  221. # [21:43] <anne> and the additional interfaces are not needed either
  222. # [21:43] <smaug> the APIs aren't gone
  223. # [21:44] <anne> the members not, no, but they return something of a different type now
  224. # [21:45] <smaug> really?
  225. # [21:45] <smaug> Gecko sure has DocumentView interface
  226. # [21:45] <smaug> and AbstractView
  227. # [21:45] <anne> I think you're alone in that
  228. # [21:46] <anne> both are undefined in Chrome and Opera anyway
  229. # [21:46] <anne> and nobody implements views, so D2V is problematic regardless
  230. # [21:47] * tlr-off is now known as tlr
  231. # [21:47] <smaug> I can't really see the problem
  232. # [21:48] <smaug> other than D2V being rather useless
  233. # [21:48] <anne> the problem is that people might try to implement it while we already know it's not going to happen
  234. # [21:49] <smaug> implement what?
  235. # [21:49] <smaug> D2V interfaces?
  236. # [21:49] <anne> D2V
  237. # [21:49] <anne> and the interfaces too, yeah
  238. # [21:49] <smaug> those interfaces are trivial, so wouldn't cause too much harm to implement them
  239. # [21:49] <anne> I don't see any reason to do so to be honest
  240. # [21:50] <anne> would be rather pointless
  241. # [21:50] <smaug> there is one really nice, practical reason. Specifications can refer to .defaultView without the need to refer to HTML5 (which will stay pretty unstable for a long time)
  242. # [21:52] <anne> and that's why we should implement those interfaces? euh...
  243. # [21:52] <smaug> implementing those interfaces is like, 6 lines of code
  244. # [21:53] <anne> if that's the whole problem you could just publish a spec that defines interface Window {} and say that the global object in ECMAScript is represented by it or something
  245. # [21:53] <anne> smaug, it's still pointless, especially if the reason is spec writing
  246. # [21:53] <anne> makes no sense at all to me
  247. # [21:53] <smaug> and makes no sense at all to me to move .defaultView to HTML5
  248. # [21:53] <anne> it's pretty much routing around the actual problem
  249. # [21:54] <anne> why not? HTML5 defines the whole global object document relationship
  250. # [21:54] <anne> there's no other spec that does that
  251. # [21:55] <smaug> HTML5 could just say that Window implements AbstractView and from that one can access .document
  252. # [21:56] <anne> a) gives redundant interfaces b) keeps D2V alive including its views concept that nobody implements
  253. # [21:56] <Hixie> if someone could take hte Window stuff out of HTML, I'd be most happy
  254. # [21:57] <Hixie> but i agree with anne that there's no point just taking out defaultView
  255. # [21:57] <anne> let me agree with you then that I'm also hoping for a volunteer :)
  256. # [21:57] <smaug> I'd be happy if Window could be taken out from HTML5 to some reasonable stable spec
  257. # [21:58] <Hixie> i think all ofus would
  258. # [21:58] * ArtB wonders if smaug just volunteered himself :-)
  259. # [21:58] <Hixie> it's a multiyear fulltime job for someone who's not already up to speed editing specs, imho
  260. # [21:58] <smaug> ArtB: noooo! :)
  261. # [21:59] <Hixie> (it's about half of my work editing html5)
  262. # [22:01] <gsnedders> We should just get rid of the Window interfacd
  263. # [22:01] <gsnedders> *interface
  264. # [22:02] <anne> or just say defaultView returns any
  265. # [22:02] <anne> euh, I meant view
  266. # [22:02] <anne> anyways, D3E also depends on Web IDL and that does not seem quite ready either
  267. # [22:04] <smaug> Hmm, does D3E really use WebIDL?
  268. # [22:05] <smaug> it refers to OMG IDL
  269. # [22:07] <anne> it should
  270. # [22:11] <shepazu> DOM3 Events doesn't depend on Web IDL, because it's not baked yet
  271. # [22:12] <shepazu> I will probably make informative Web ISL bindings, but DOM3 Events is simply using OMG IDL
  272. # [22:15] <Hixie> we'll need something that defines how JS prototypes get set up for the EventTarget interface, if nothing else
  273. # [22:15] <Hixie> easiest way to do that is to defer to Web IDL, but it's fine if DOM3 Events just defines it itself too
  274. # [22:18] <shepazu> Hixie: could you please send a clarification email to www-dom about that, then?
  275. # [22:18] <Hixie> i'll add doing so to my todo list
  276. # [22:21] <shepazu> to be honest, I'm not sure what you mean by "defines how JS prototypes get set up for the EventTarget interface"
  277. # [22:21] <smaug> Uh, I need to review what Web IDL says about event target
  278. # [22:22] <smaug> last time I read it, it wasn't doing quite the right thing, IIRC
  279. # [22:23] <ArtB> action: barstow try to find an Editor for Web IDL spec and push it forward
  280. # [22:23] * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
  281. # [22:23] <trackbot> Created ACTION-518 - Try to find an Editor for Web IDL spec and push it forward [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-04-14].
  282. # [22:26] <anne> fwiw, I believe Sam is still on it
  283. # [22:28] <ArtB> anne, that would be good. The last formal pub was Dec 2008
  284. # [22:29] <shepazu> and the last editor's draft was 30 September 2009
  285. # [22:29] <shepazu> that's not a very good sign
  286. # [22:29] <ArtB> I'll use this action as a reminder to chase Sam
  287. # [22:30] <anne> I spoke him in person last week
  288. # [22:31] <anne> guess the problem is he cannot do it fulltime
  289. # [22:32] <ArtB> good to know Anne; perhaps what we need then is someone to work with him
  290. # [22:32] * Quits: ArtB (chatzilla@192.100.124.219) (Quit: Happy trails ...)
  291. # [23:19] * Quits: smaug (chatzilla@82.181.150.24) (Ping timeout)
  292. # [23:26] * Joins: smaug (chatzilla@82.181.150.24)
  293. # [23:37] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  294. # [23:37] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  295. # [23:45] * Quits: aroben (aroben@71.58.77.15) (Connection reset by peer)
  296. # Session Close: Thu Apr 08 00:00:00 2010

The end :)