/irc-logs / w3c / #webapps / 2010-10-06 / end

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  74. # [19:06] <shepazu> smaug_: you up for a telcon?
  75. # [19:06] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169)
  76. # [19:06] <smaug_> yeah
  77. # [19:06] <shepazu> Zakim, room for 3?
  78. # [19:06] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; conference Team_(webapps)17:03Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 60 minutes until 1803Z
  79. # [19:06] <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu
  80. # [19:06] <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
  81. # [19:06] <Zakim> Team_(webapps)17:03Z has now started
  82. # [19:06] <Zakim> +Shepazu
  83. # [19:07] <smaug_> shepazu: could you past the link to the raised issues?
  84. # [19:07] <smaug_> paste
  85. # [19:07] * Joins: Travis (836b0057@128.30.52.43)
  86. # [19:08] <shepazu> Zakim, code?
  87. # [19:08] <Zakim> the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), shepazu
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  91. # [19:08] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  92. # [19:08] <Travis> zakim, [Microsoft] is Travis
  93. # [19:08] <Zakim> +Travis; got it
  94. # [19:08] <smaug_> uh, skype crashed
  95. # [19:09] <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
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  98. # [19:10] <Travis> scribe: Travis
  99. # [19:10] <Travis> scribeNick: Travis
  100. # [19:10] <Zakim> +??P0
  101. # [19:10] <smaug_> Zakim, ??P0 is Olli_Pettay
  102. # [19:10] <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
  103. # [19:11] <Travis> shepazu: A few small changes have been made to the spec, but it's not been updated on the site yet.
  104. # [19:11] <Travis> s/updated/uploaded/
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  106. # [19:12] <shepazu> trackbot, start telcon
  107. # [19:12] * trackbot is preparing a teleconference
  108. # [19:12] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.169)
  109. # [19:12] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/06-webapps-irc
  110. # [19:12] <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
  111. # [19:12] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, trackbot
  112. # [19:12] <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DOM3
  113. # [19:12] <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_WebApps(DOM3)2:00PM scheduled to start in 51 minutes
  114. # [19:12] <trackbot> Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
  115. # [19:12] <trackbot> Date: 06 October 2010
  116. # [19:12] <Travis> I see 4 open issues.
  117. # [19:12] <Travis> Topic: Last Call Issue review
  118. # [19:12] <Travis> Hmm, I was filtered on "open"...
  119. # [19:13] <smaug_> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2 has quite a few issues
  120. # [19:14] <Travis> Issue 1: I propose to resolve as fixed.
  121. # [19:15] <Travis> Issues raised since last call (summary)
  122. # [19:15] <Travis> Issue 119: input/keyboard locale (we agreed to do that) -- need a concrete proposal
  123. # [19:16] <Travis> shepazu: ... Will just incorporate what's in the feedback.
  124. # [19:17] <Travis> jrossi: In my analysis of use-cases, generally, it's more important to know what the locale is _before_ getting an event.
  125. # [19:17] <Travis> ... Therefore, it may be better to have the state available for retrieval
  126. # [19:17] <Travis> ... also, the state doesn't change that often.
  127. # [19:18] <Travis> shepazu: How do you cover the scenario where copy/paste from another locale?
  128. # [19:19] <Travis> jrossi: Acording to our developers on IE, the keyboard locale information is not conveyed as part of the copy/paste system (in Windows). Therefore, that scenario just isn't possible on a Windows-based OS.
  129. # [19:19] <Travis> shepazu: Hmm. True. Though an OS could change... :-)
  130. # [19:20] <Travis> ... Second issue with that proposal (of more concern to me): By allowing the browser to get your locale, it's yet another fingerprinting heurisitic that browser vendors are trying to crack-down on.
  131. # [19:21] <Travis> ... From a privacy standpoint, my concern is around yet more passive information exposed to script.
  132. # [19:21] <Travis> jrossi: System locale (vs. keyboard locale) is already exposed in script in major browsers.
  133. # [19:22] <Travis> smaug_: My system locale is en_US, though my keyboard locale is Finnish (so there's less info exposed today).
  134. # [19:24] <Travis> shepazu: Folk's concerns are that this [keyboard locale state-based property] adds yet one more piece of info into the fingerprinting reveal
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  136. # [19:24] <Travis> ... Trying to think through use-cases....
  137. # [19:24] <Travis> ... Let's assume there's a method to get the locale.
  138. # [19:25] <Travis> ... (keyboard locale)
  139. # [19:27] <Travis> jrossi: It we had this property on keyboard/input, would we leak this through dispatchEvent?
  140. # [19:28] <Travis> Travis: No, it would have the empty string (because it wasn't initialized)
  141. # [19:28] <Travis> shepazu: initKeyboardEvent would have a way to provide an initial value
  142. # [19:28] <Travis> ... A browser could have a policy where the value (state value) isn't exposed until the keyboard is used.
  143. # [19:29] <Travis> ... They could also have a user-facing privacy setting to turn off keyboard locale.
  144. # [19:29] <Travis> ... (and other locale settings)
  145. # [19:30] <Travis> ... If we wanted to distinguish between keyboard and paste events, we could have both methods (the static getter and provide the data on the event)
  146. # [19:31] <Travis> smaug_: Thinking about specific event flows...
  147. # [19:31] <Travis> ... first time the user uses the keyboard, the event should have some locale
  148. # [19:32] <Travis> ... Then if the user changes the keyboard locale, an event could also be fired.
  149. # [19:33] <Travis> ... (correction to the above: first time the keyboard is used, we could fire an event that contains the keyboard locale as well)
  150. # [19:33] <Travis> (All: general agreement...)
  151. # [19:37] <Travis> shepazu: Since we're talking about state, does this make sense to have a new interface with potentially other state on it?
  152. # [19:38] <Travis> travis: There's another working group doing something similiar with system state and events (a System API spec?)
  153. # [19:39] <Travis> shepazu: If we do this, we probably shouldn't hand it over to another group, as we really need to satisfy our Last Call comment and this is really needed for internationalization.
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  156. # [19:40] <Travis> Travis: Given that simply adding the keyboard locale to the keyboard event/input event follows a well-established pattern in this spec, and that doing it the other way (using a state property and change notification) is a new pattern in this spec, AND given that there are privacy concerns for providing the state property, my conclusion is to go with original proposal in the mail.
  157. # [19:41] <Travis> shepazu: Don't have a strong feeling either way, but my inclination is to go with what was suggested in the Raised issue.
  158. # [19:41] <Travis> jrossi: No objections.
  159. # [19:41] <Travis> smaug_: Yeah.
  160. # [19:42] <Travis> shepazu: Issue 120 - not doing that.
  161. # [19:42] <Travis> ... Issue 121 - recommend doing this in another spec.
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  164. # [19:43] <Travis> ... Issue 122 - not doing that.
  165. # [19:43] <Travis> ... Issue 123: Rationale for feature strings
  166. # [19:44] <Travis> jrossi: In some cases user agents may claim support but not actually support all the events.
  167. # [19:45] <Travis> shepazu: This really comes down to an ideoligical issue.
  168. # [19:46] <shepazu> Modernizr is one approach
  169. # [19:46] <Travis> ... Specs generally have a provision for hasFeature, and though it's not usually dependable it has a long and honorable tradition
  170. # [19:46] <Travis> ... Detecting particular events can be hard/difficult (you have to get a trusted event to know for sure)
  171. # [19:47] <Travis> ... With our more discrete feature strings, implementations (like IE9) can start reporting exactly what events are supported.
  172. # [19:47] <Travis> FIRE ALARM!
  173. # [19:47] <Travis> See ya!
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  178. # [20:00] <smaug_> shepazu: sent
  179. # [20:00] <smaug_> email about that hasFeature
  180. # [20:00] <smaug_> let's see what Simon says about it
  181. # [20:01] <shepazu> thanks, smaug_
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  191. # [20:54] <shepazu> huh, they are taking a long time to come back... I was hoping to cover more stuff today
  192. # [20:55] <smaug_> perhaps the fire alarm was a real thing
  193. # [20:55] <smaug_> not just some testing
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The end :)